Dateless Mantua 2-6-2T Conversion (Eventually)

[SeeYou190]

SpaceMouse

Is there any reason I couldn't make an old jalopy geared engine by using powered trucks and maybe building the boiler and cab myself?

That is very possible. Are you talking about building a model simlar to the old Roundhouse Climax?

-Kevin

[SpaceMouse]

More like the small home-made looking engines on the narrow gauge layouts. 

This is not a great example. 

I was thinking more like two trucks. Okay maybe like the Climax or a Bell or a small early Heisler. 

[Southgate 2]

That's one idea. And then there were a few diesel or gas powered  locomotives that the home shops made from steam engine chassis...

https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.7zKIaFhh9jM3tyJNiPi9yQHaDm?pid=Api&rs=1

https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/uploads/r/null/9/2/923427/6dc01636-5364-4be9-9e7e-4c6119973bdc-A28539.jpg

Dan

[rrinker]

 OK, I would take a working model of that Lake Shore Stone loco in a heartbeat. Not sure how practical it would be to make something that tiny that could actually pull more than itself around, even if it was made all of metal. The boiler would almost have to be the motor.

                                                             --Randy

 

[snjroy]

SpaceMouse

 

 

 

Now THAT is a cute Heisler!

 

Chip, I thought you were going more in this direction (Bachmann ON30 2-6-2t):

https://shop.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=487_673_1129&products_id=7112&zenid=aaeklcfngu85l20icaabrder46

Simon

 

[SpaceMouse]

Dan

And then there were a few diesel or gas powered  locomotives that the home shops made from steam engine chassis...

I'm trying to build something that will not be out of place in 1895.

Randy

Not sure how practical it would be to make something that tiny that could actually pull more than itself around, even if it was made all of metal.

I was thinking 2 powered trucks and weight added to the chassis. I would put it in the mill yard moving one box car at a time. The most it might have to do is move 4 cars on flat ground. The boiler would be for electronics. 

Simon

Chip, I thought you were going more in this direction (Bachmann ON30 2-6-2t):

Two seperate projects. The 2-6-2T would come first.

 

[SpaceMouse]

The motor I ordered from China arrived today and I found two things I could not believe. 

1) That I got it so soon. It was supposed to arrive between Oct. 26 and Nov. 18th.

2) It is half the size of the original motor. It's like replacing a Chevy straight six with a Hyundai V4.

This week I had to replace a 2-6-0 tender truck that got damaged. They have wheels isolated from one another and I belive I can power the motor with pick-ups on both sides of the pilot and trailing wheels. Basically, I'm set to make the bash.

However, I now have 3 locomotives on the bench ahead of it, so it will be a while before I even look at it.

[Overmod]

SpaceMouse

I'm trying to build something that will not be out of place in 1895.

Like this, perhaps? 

https://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/26/NZ_6.jpg

[SpaceMouse]

Overmod

 

SpaceMouse

I'm trying to build something that will not be out of place in 1895.

 Like this, perhaps? 

 https://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/26/NZ_6.jpg

 

That would work, but it's a little showy. Randall "Rock" Ridge couldn't handle all the style points.

[richg1998]

I just dragged out my full color Mantua catalogs from the middle to late 1990's and they show replacement motors. I had bought one for my General and Mantua sent me beautiful catalogs with all parts list. MC-90, MC,94, MC98. Motors with brackets. Not sure you will ever find them again.

Kits, trains sets, all kinds of locomotives, parts, incredible.

NWSL has all kinds of gears and motors, adapters also. I have used many.

The MDC intermidiate gear box is wonderful. I have made my own. A 72 to 1 for a switcher with a can motor with a flywheel is excellent. Motor mounted in bath caulk for no vibration.

 I thought I scanned the catalog and sent them in years ago to HO Seeker,

Rich

 

 

 

[SpaceMouse]

richg1998

The MDC intermidiate gear box is wonderful. I have made my own. A 72 to 1 for a switcher with a can motor with a flywheel is excellent. Motor mounted in bath caulk for no vibration.

What I thought was a simple engineering problem has become infinitely more complex. 

What is an MDC gearbox? I assume you are using a series of gears to provide low-end precision, but in the DCC world, what does that accomplish that a CV setting or two wouldn't. 

What does a flywheel do other than provide momentum? 

I was planning on mounting my engine in caulk, but I first have to build some kind of structure to hold the smaller motor at the right distance and angle.  

[Overmod]

SpaceMouse

What is an MDC gearbox?

I presumed it was something initially made by the Model Die Casting company, perhaps rebushed and with better tooth profile gears that have less lash.  I'm as interested as you to find out what was done and how it was accomplished.

I assume you are using a series of gears to provide low-end precision, but in the DCC world, what does that accomplish that a CV setting or two wouldn't?

This is like what gearhead motors do: the greater the 'mechanical advantage' of the geartrain, the smoother a given electric motor with 'poles' will run -- even if it is a coreless or BLDC motor with inherent smooth torque over a revolution.  If you refer to the original article in MR circa 1970 which used a coreless motor driving through a Delrin chain, you will find the same principle of smooth ratio reduction (and torque 'multiplication' if that is important to the situation) over a scale speed range.

Note that there is another consideration: whether the gears or their arrangement cause prompt stopping when the motor changes speed or stops, as in a typical worm-drive setup.  There some kind of electronic 'momentum control' becomes essential to smooth operation, and being able to fine-tune the motor's 'response' via CVs becomes highly valuable.

What does a flywheel do other than provide momentum?

In the olden crude days it provided an effect like 'momentum' for speed changes that weren't jerky, or to overcome the effects of momentary dropout.  In a modern DCC locomotive, I think the important effect is to smooth the motor response between 'poles' in the armature, where the motor controller in the decoder is using something relatively crude like back EMF to do speed control and 'cogging' might be more evident at slow speeds where relatively coarse PWM is being applied to a motor with strong 'supermagnet' field strength and relatively few armature poles.

[SpaceMouse]

Is there any reason not to proceed with just the new motor and pickups on insulated wheels on the pilot and training wheels, or should I be considering more sophisticated modifications at this point?

[Overmod]

SpaceMouse

Is there any reason not to proceed with just the new motor and pickups on insulated wheels on the pilot and training wheels,

No.

If it isn't 'adequate' you can always cut the caulk mount, modify things, and do more later.

That also applies if you get the new motor in and find you need or want additional 'fine tuning' on the chassis, or bearings, or rod bushings or whatever.  In my opinion at least it's not much time, and not much cost, to rework at any later time...

[SpaceMouse]

Good. Everything I'm doing here will be first time, with the exception of the decoder install. I'm sure I'll have plenty of challenges. 

[richg1998]

SpaceMouse

 

richg1998

The MDC intermidiate gear box is wonderful. I have made my own. A 72 to 1 for a switcher with a can motor with a flywheel is excellent. Motor mounted in bath caulk for no vibration.

 

 

What I thought was a simple engineering problem has become infinitely more complex. 

What is an MDC gearbox? I assume you are using a series of gears to provide low-end precision, but in the DCC world, what does that accomplish that a CV setting or two wouldn't. 

What does a flywheel do other than provide momentum? 

I was planning on mounting my engine in caulk, but I first have to build some kind of structure to hold the smaller motor at the right distance and angle.  

 

I found more gear reduction. I built two of my own. Your MDC locos have them.

Also allows the motor to be horizontal, not at an angle.

NWSL describes them in Gear Planning page. A great resource you should download.

I bought it when thet were still in Washington years ago.

All my newer Roundhouse locos came with them and open frame skewed armature motors with flywheels.

Rich

[SpaceMouse]

richg1998

NWSL describes them in Gear Planning page. A great resource you should download.

I'm not sure I got the right paper. I downloaded "QUALITY GEARS FOR MODEL BUILDERS, TINKERERS, Etc." published 1/1/2017.

[Overmod]

Why this is so hard to find is strange.  I assume you got it through the 'old catalog'; the date on the document matches:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0250/4032/2669/files/Gears_1_2.pdf?263

[SpaceMouse]

Overmod

Why this is so hard to find is strange.  I assume you got it through the 'old catalog'; the date on the document matches:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0250/4032/2669/files/Gears_1_2.pdf?263

 

That document was part of the document I found. 

[Overmod]

SpaceMouse

That document was part of the document I found.

If you have a longer and more complete version, please post its URL here.  I had ridiculous trouble tracking down even the 'legacy' old-catalogue version.  This is too precious a resource to be MIA while the 'new ownership' gets its new Web presentation together...

[SpaceMouse]

Overmod

If you have a longer and more complete version, please post its URL here.  I had ridiculous trouble tracking down even the 'legacy' old-catalogue version.  This is too precious a resource to be MIA while the 'new ownership' gets its new Web presentation together...

Upon examination, they might be pretty similar documents. This one is labeled 1.4 while yours is labled 1.2, but both have a publishing date of 1/1/2017.

https://nebula.wsimg.com/9efc443e6b1c221c97ebd56248a29065?AccessKeyId=08BEE66B97B387F20C0D&disposition=0&alloworigin=1