Everyone knows that narrow gauge modelers form a large subgroup of our hobby - but what about WIDE gauge modelers...after all a substantial portion of the world operates on five foot or above
"Broad gauge is the dominant gauge in countries in Indian subcontinent, the former Soviet Union (CIS states, Baltic states, Georgia and Ukraine), Mongolia and Finland, Spain, Portugal, Argentina, Chile and Ireland.
And the Erie and Lackawanna were wide gauge in their eary days - not to mention the ante-bellum South
Is anyone daring eough to model Great Western's 7 foot 14 inch gauge (please, in the name of all the saints in heaven, why, oh why, 14 inch!)
BEAUSABREEveryone knows that narrow gauge modelers form a large subgroup of our hobby...
A subgroup? - Yes. Large???
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
That 14 inch was supposed to be a quarter inch....sorry
BEAUSABREIs anyone daring enough to model Great Western's 7 foot 1/4 inch gauge (please, in the name of all the saints in heaven, why, oh why, 1/4 inch!)
Remember that the original point of the broad gauge was to put the wheels all the way on the outside of the train -- whether or not this would have eventually gotten around to Breitspurbahn-level overhangs with the wheels under the lateral quarter-points of the equipment is an interesting question to consider, but in the absence of separately journaled wheels this would result in interesting minimum mainline curvature.
Much more interesting would be an Erie and associated systems (perhaps under Gould or the van Sweringens if the different standard had persisted) built out to what would have been a larger loading gage but still comparatively close track centers.
What would have been well and truly more interesting would be Joseph Ramsey's 'new' railroad following 1903, built out at 6' gauge with appropriate clearance for the (very substantial) earthworks, with an incentive for connections both to the east and west. There is something I've always thought a little compelling about a train that not only made Chicago in under 10 hours but did it with interior accommodations more common to ship scale than plain old trains... while retaining the ability to operate ordinary equipment either with wider truck exchange or gauge adjustment, or on specialty cars...
Incidentally most O scalers are modeling broad gauge... <ducks for cover>
Probably the finest -- and perhaps the best financially-supported -- example of broad gauge, modeled or not:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUERtAe73NI
- -Russia adopted 5' to ensure German locomotives dropped between their rails at the border.
This is absolutely 100% untrue.
The adoption of the 5 foot gauge in the Soviet Union, and previously Russia, predates the German advance to their borders, and any aggression between the two countries by decades. Prior to Barbarossa, the Soviet Union did not directly border Germany (controlled/occupied territory).
How would a DB locomotive drop through the rails anyway? Are you under the impression that they butt-connected the two gauges?
Did you think the Soviet Union reguaged all their equipment to 60" in the Summer of 1941 when Germany invaded? Seriously. Really?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Map showing track gauges in Australia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_gauge_in_Australia#/media/File:Cross-section_of_Australian_triple-gauge_track.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_gauge_in_Australia
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
This photo is Sri Lanka. Broad gauge modeling looks interesting, but all modelers in that area seem to use only standard gauge.
http://works-k.cocolog-nifty.com/page1/2015/06/post-5a8c.html
Well, for a while American Flyer (circa 1940) made S scale trains that ran on O gauge track. This would be 6'8" - pretty close to the 7' 1/4" Great Western.
Lionel over the years made some of their locomotives to scales smaller than 1:48 - some that were 1:64 (S scale).
So get some of those 1:64 Lionel locomotives. Swap the trucks on the current American Flyer freight and passenger cars. And you're in business with wide gauge.
Paul
Lastspikemike SeeYou190 - - Russia adopted 5' to ensure German locomotives dropped between their rails at the border. This is absolutely 100% untrue. The adoption of the 5 foot gauge in the Soviet Union, and previously Russia, predates the German advance to their borders, and any aggression between the two countries by decades. Prior to Barbarossa, the Soviet Union did not directly border Germany (controlled/occupied territory). How would a DB locomotive drop through the rails anyway? Are you under the impression that they butt-connected the two gauges? Did you think the Soviet Union reguaged all their equipment to 60" in the Summer of 1941 when Germany invaded? Seriously. Really? -Kevin Wow. I'm fairly sure a bit if dynamite would have been more effective than a 3.5 in gauge gap. You recall the other World War? And the Franco-Prussian War? And the Crimean War?
SeeYou190 - - Russia adopted 5' to ensure German locomotives dropped between their rails at the border. This is absolutely 100% untrue. The adoption of the 5 foot gauge in the Soviet Union, and previously Russia, predates the German advance to their borders, and any aggression between the two countries by decades. Prior to Barbarossa, the Soviet Union did not directly border Germany (controlled/occupied territory). How would a DB locomotive drop through the rails anyway? Are you under the impression that they butt-connected the two gauges? Did you think the Soviet Union reguaged all their equipment to 60" in the Summer of 1941 when Germany invaded? Seriously. Really? -Kevin
- - Russia adopted 5' to ensure German locomotives dropped between their rails at the border.
Wow. I'm fairly sure a bit if dynamite would have been more effective than a 3.5 in gauge gap.
You recall the other World War?
And the Franco-Prussian War?
And the Crimean War?
Germany was not a combatant in the Crimean War.
Alton Junction
LastspikemikeRussia adopted 5' to ensure German locomotives dropped between their rails at the border.
In partial defense, the idea that Russia preserved 5' to make invasion more difficult was widely promulgated, so it's not surprising to see it repeated. It's just that it ain't so in real life.
What you may be thinking of is some Russian military standards, notably gun caliber, where the Russian bore is just slightly larger than common "enemy" spec -- this would allow Russian guns to fire captured ammunition, but enemy guns to jam (or worse) if the opposite were tried.
I remembered that a significant amount of Brazilian railroading is 5'3" Irish gauge, and there is a pretty well developed modeling community there. One approach there is to retain the HO proportions (English to metric) but to use "HOb" gauge in the track -- 18.2mm. I do not know the extent to which manufacturers make things like flex or sectional track in HOb, but would expect at least some market for it in areas this gauge would be modeled.
There is an active group of Civil War era modelers, at least one of whom uses finescale (P:87) components for track and wheels but at 17.5mm gauge.
Surely there is a community of modelers in India who work in their broad gauge and come here to read about 'the craft'...
Overmod Rather obviously any 5' route in wartime could easily be regauged by moving one rail inboard on the ties
Yes, the Germans had no problem regauging Soviet trackage to 4' 8 1/2" as they occupied territory. Some accounts of German field engineers stated that the Soviet attempts to sabotage their trackage actually made the regauging work easier on the invaders.
The Soviets took as much of their equipment as they could as they retreated. I do not know of any scaled measures for Gemans to regauge Soviet equipment. I am certain it happened here and there, but doubtful very much.
Ther Germans had quite a bit of captured Polish equipment in fine condition that they used extensively in the Soviet campaign, including armoured artillery trains.
OvermodWhat you may be thinking of is some Russian military standards, notably gun caliber, where the Russian bore is just slightly larger than common "enemy" spec -- this would allow Russian guns to fire captured ammunition, but enemy guns to jam (or worse) if the opposite were tried.
This I am curious about. I have read many conflicting accounts of this from sources that should be reliable.
The Soviet heavy anti-tank gun was 85mm, the German was 88mm, but the shell designs were so different that neither could use each others ammunition.
The Germans had a 37mm anit-aircraft gun, the Soviets primary AA gun was 40mm, but I am very doubtful German ammuntion could be used in the Soviet gun. The soviet AA gun was similar to the Bofors 40mm AA gun used by the United Kingdom, and I have never read accounts of the UK 40mm gun firing captured German 37mm ammunition.
The Soviets had a 76mm gun used in the T-34 and KV-1 tanks up until 1943/1944, self propelled artillery/assault guns, and on field guns (ZIS-3). The Germans had a 75mm gun used in the Panzer III and IV tanks, and some anti-tank guns (PAK-40). This might be the only situation where it could be possible, but I am doubtful. Looking at images of the German 75mm shell vs. the Soviet 76mm, they do not look like they would work in the Soviet gun.
This is factual... the German soldiers loved the Soviet sub-machine guns, and made extensive use of them anytime they could. A captured Soviet sub-machine gun was a prize for a German foot soldier. Capturing ammunition for these guns was celebratory. Of course, when the StG44 entered service, this changed.
The Germans also captured so many ZIS-3 guns, T-34 tanks, and tracked assualt guns using the 76mm bore that they actually manufactured their own ammunition for them.
The Japanese had a rifle that fired a 7.7mm cartidge, that was slightly larger than the UK SMLE and USA 30-06, but very similar in design. I have read stories about Allied soldiers trying to use Japanese 7.7mm ammunition with disastrous results. I wonder if these stories are the source for the less likely German/Soviet ammunition swap stories.
Great video on the US change to all-standard guage (other than narrow guage lines)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v81Gwu6BTE
(seriously, if you are the least bit interested in history at all, subscribe to this guy's channel)
Supertrain? You mean Love Boat but on a train? One wonders at how much damage that idiotic show did to the reputation of trains in the minds of the general public.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinkerSupertrain? You mean Love Boat but on a train? One wonders at how much damage that idiotic show did to the reputation of trains in the minds of the general public.
The model of the Supertrain used in the outdoor shots was actually an impressive bit of building.
I watched this show when it was on TV, I was 11. I picked up very quickly that when the train was in the countryside it was on wide trackage, but magically transformed to standard gauge when it pulled into a station.
There was an article in MR not long after it was cancelled about the sale of the models used. Cost the studio millions. It's on ever list of worst TV shows of the 70's, and there were some other doozys too.
BART is 5'6" gauge for stability. If Marin county had voted for BART, the tracks from SF to Marin would have been on the lower deck of the Golden Gate briidge and the wide gauge was to improve stability in high winds.
Numerous street car lines in the US were built to 5' plus gauge due to franchise requirements intended to prevent interchange of RR freight cars.
rrinkerGreat video on the US change to all-standard guage (other than narrow guage lines) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v81Gwu6BTE (seriously, if you are the least bit interested in history at all, subscribe to this guy's channel)
That was a very interesting history story -- one that I did not know very well. Thanks.
York1 John
BEAUSABRE Everyone knows that narrow gauge modelers form a large subgroup of our hobby - but what about WIDE gauge modelers...after all a substantial portion of the world operates on five foot or above "Broad gauge is the dominant gauge in countries in Indian subcontinent, the former Soviet Union (CIS states, Baltic states, Georgia and Ukraine), Mongolia and Finland, Spain, Portugal, Argentina, Chile and Ireland. And the Erie and Lackawanna were wide gauge in their eary days - not to mention the ante-bellum South Is anyone daring eough to model Great Western's 7 foot 14 inch gauge (please, in the name of all the saints in heaven, why, oh why, 14 inch!)
SeeYou190 - - Russia adopted 5' to ensure German locomotives dropped between their rails at the border. This is absolutely 100% untrue.
Prussia was a north German kingdom prior to 1871 when the unification of German states into the German Reich resulted in Prussia becoming the leading state in the Reich.
Since you mentioned the Crimean War (1853-56) in your response to Kevin, I wanted to clarify that Germany (Prussia) was not a combatant in that war. Also, in response to your mention of the Franco-Prussian war (1870-71), Russia was not a combatant in that war, so no German (Prussian) threat there.
The point that Kevin was making was that Russia adopted the 5 foot gauge well before German aggression against Russia which occurred twice, but not until the 20th century, in the two world wars.
Rich
richhotrain The point that Kevin was making was that Russia adopted the 5 foot gauge well before German aggression against Russia which occurred twice, but not until the 20th century, in the two world wars.
I've seen reference to Russia adopting 5' gauge as a defensive measure against agression from western Europe. Their thinking may have been driven by seeing what the USMRR had been able to do in the Civil War and thinking what Napoleon may have been able to accomplish with railroad suplly lines.
As for Germany versus Russia in WW1, it was the Russians who attacked Germany and not vice versa. The final trigger for the start of hostilities was when Russia started mobilizing their army, which then prompted Germany to mobilize and so on.
Erik_MagI've seen reference to Russia adopting 5' gauge as a defensive measure against aggression from western Europe. Their thinking may have been driven by seeing what the USMRR had been able to do in the Civil War
Now any decision to give up using 5'/1524 in subsequent decades, as the urge to interconnect systems before practical 'automatic' gauge-changing methods led to dramatic standard-gauge conversion in the United Stated and Britain, and elsewhere ... there you might see some military paranoia, just from planners with little practical understanding of or experience with tracklaying or maintenance.
LastspikemikeMind you, my remark was not intended to be taken seriously. 3.5 inches difference is not that significant.
I have asked this of you before, as have others.
Please stop posting comments you know are false as if they are true, then coming back and saying you were just joking or not trying to be taken seriously.
This destroys threads that could be interesting.
You threw this one so far off topic that it might get locked.
Many people in here try very hard to keep these threads factual, and you are undermining their efforts.
Erik_Mag As for Germany versus Russia in WW1, it was the Russians who attacked Germany and not vice versa. The final trigger for the start of hostilities was when Russia started mobilizing their army, which then prompted Germany to mobilize and so on.
LastspikemikeI took this off topic? You just have to be joking.
No I am not joking. Joking is for the Diner only.
You posted this, which you admitted you knew was not true when you posted it as the second response to the OP:
Then people chimed in to correct your false statement, then the thread went off topic, and now it is off topic even further.
I am not going to be drawn into another pointless back-and-forth with you, so this will be my only response, and I will ask again that you not post any more incorrect or misleading comments as answers in these forums. That is rude to the people that work so hard to make this an area of intelligent conversation and source of good information.
Oh well, at least you tried, Kevin.
As a reminder, the original topic was: Is anyone daring enough to model Great Western's 7 foot 1/4 inch gauge?
The off topic was: Russia adopted 5' to ensure German locomotives dropped between their rails at the border.
Russia adopted 5' to ensure German locomotives dropped between their rails at the border.
SeeYou190 The adoption of the 5 foot gauge in the Soviet Union, and previously Russia, predates the German advance to their borders, and any aggression between the two countries by decades. Prior to Barbarossa, the Soviet Union did not directly border Germany (controlled/occupied territory).
The gauge difference may well be legend, but the German Empire and the Russian Empire shared a very large border before WWI.
Gary
richhotrain Oh well, at least you tried, Kevin. As a reminder, the original topic was: Is anyone daring enough to model Great Western's 7 foot 1/4 inch gauge? The off topic was: Russia adopted 5' to ensure German locomotives dropped between their rails at the border. Rich
All right, back on topic. I think it would be fun to model the Erie's 6ft gauge. So would that be HOw6 in HO?
With the typical notation for narrow gauge applied, I guess HOw6 would be it for a 6' wide gauge. Or if doing Brunel's GW, OOw7.
Doing the GWR - there's a whole group dedicated to doing the broad gauge version
http://www.broadgauge.org.uk/
That is some massive stuff. Bunch of prototype pictures, as well as model shots from exhibitions. Brunel was I think incapable of doing things in ordinary sizes - the railroad, the bridges and viaducts to support it, the ships like the Great Eastern...
Also some searches show that Harold Minky played around a bit with picking models and scales that would work for Erie 6' broad gauge. All the pictures I can find link to another publication so I can't post them here, just google erie broad gauge model railroad.
Re: Angola - yes, mostly the fault of the compromise car, though it also was defective. Learned about that one way too long ago when we got the book Train Wrecks by Robert Reed. Interesting factoid, John D Rockefeller was supposed to be on that train but was late to the station. Drove a lot of change - better braking, safer stoves than open pot belly stoves then in use, safer lighting instead of the kerosene lamps, etc. ANd helped drive a change to standardizing ALL railroads at 4' 8 1/2".
A note on compromise cars and the like - South Korea developed a truck that can change its gauge from standard to Russian broad gauge by rolling over a transition section. The hope is that it can be used for Korea-Russia interchange after reunification.
As for modeling, I haven't really heard of broad gauge modeling. Seems to me that most non standard gauges that aren't a common narrow gauge are just modeled on standard gauge. Japanese HOj exists for that reason. I'm not sure how many people would be willing to hand-lay all of their track and re-gauge all rolling stock to do special gauges nowadays. When standards exist already, it would be difficult to start up a new product line with an exclusive gauge as well.
-Peter. Mantua collector, 3D printing enthusiast, Korail modeler.