SeeYou190I hope I do not cross the "This Hobby Is Too Expensive" line here.
Kevin, I am sure we all have our "over budget" price range. I had mine since I started buying trains 60 years ago.
OTOH If I wanted a (say) a United Brass Class B Two truck Shay then I would be willing to fork the cash over for it but, (say) $65.00 flat car is a price I'm not willing to pay since there are other quality flat cars available at cheaper prices.
I hope that explain what I was trying to say.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I think if highly detailed models are your thing you should be in proto scales (Proto87, Proto64, Proto48, etc.).
While highly detailed models are great for close up photography and display, I just don't really see much difference from lesser detailed models when running them on the layout.
Paul
PRR8259 have four of the Tangent 86' box cars, and there are many differences between the individual versions. To be honest, it's THE boxcar I always wanted. My buddy feels the same way (and got 3 of them so far). I cannot stand the crude details on the earlier cars (and got rid of all of mine many years ago), and if I even wanted to buy an earlier Walthers Thrall car right now, there are people price gouging on Ebay, attempting to sell some of them for more than twice the MSRP from when they were brand new. This makes the Tangent car at $52.95 a bargain in my eyes.
I have wanted high fidelity models of the 86' auto parts box cars as well and the new Tangent models are fantastic. I've gotten 4 so far (1 DT&I, 1 Sou and 2 SP) and may get a 5th. I'm selling off most of my old crude Athearn blue box 4 Greenvilles.
Aren't Walthers 86' hi-cubes Pullman Standards? Athearn's 8 doors are Thralls IIRC. Anyway, yeah, the listed prices are in many cases as high as the Tangents or more, and for a much lower detail car. I bought most of the 4-door Walthers P-S 86' cars I needed a few years ago for around $20-25 each that are appropriate for the Ford FAST, a few as cheap as $8 (green PC, green DT&I, red Santa Fe, brown PRR, green NYC, MILW, early Conrail)
Manufacturers make what people BUY. People like myself have been asking for, hoping, dreaming somebody would make a decent 86' autoparts box car. Atlas and Intermountain also listened and made those gorgeous 'racks. John Mock
Yep, agreed
I have often wondered how many new models are sold to collectors that do not have an operating layout. It would be great to know the percentage. I am sure some of the manufacturers have an idea. If HO train cars were only purchased by people who were going to run them on layouts I would be there would be fewer models available and they would be much more expensive. -Kevin
If HO train cars were only purchased by people who were going to run them on layouts I would be there would be fewer models available and they would be much more expensive.
-Kevin
I wouldn't really know how manufacturers would know the percentage of customers are collectors with no layout.
For many years (following a separation and later divorce, job layoffs and a number of moves, I didn't have any place to build a layout; so I was one of those "collectors" without a layout. But I suspect most of these collectors plan to build a layout when they can, and sometimes life or circumstances prevent it but eventually some do get around to it.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Before this thread quickly spins into forbidden territory and gets blocked, let me join others in keeping it on track (pun).
Can someone please explain extreme detail or too expensive for a car? Probably not. Would I spend more than $20 on one car? Yes, but only if it's worth it. Atlas Master Line is something worth the price. Paying more than the cost of feeding a small country is probably not worth it.
kasskabooseCan someone please explain extreme detail or too expensive for a car? Probably not.
I think the Tangent 86' Greenville speaks to the "exteme detail" explanation nicely. Another example of "extreme detail" are the Arrowhead series of coal cars and Railgon gondola. Look no further than these fine examples.
As for "too expensive" ... I don't think that assertion was made by the original poster and injects a greater likihood of topic moderation.
Paying more than the cost of feeding a small country is probably not worth it.
How much exactly would that be?
My mistake--
I thought the Walthers cars were Thralls, you may be correct they are P-S. I have been avoiding them.
There is somebody trying to sell a pair of new Walthers ATSF Autoparts boxcars for something like $79.95 nib.
I want Santa Fe cars, but at that price I can wait for Tangent's which will be light years better.
John
PRR8259 My mistake-- I thought the Walthers cars were Thralls, you may be correct they are P-S. I have been avoiding them. There is somebody trying to sell a pair of new Walthers ATSF Autoparts boxcars for something like $79.95 nib. I want Santa Fe cars, but at that price I can wait for Tangent's which will be light years better. John
I've bought the Walthers P-S 86' auto parts cars because I want a realistic mix which were typical of the Ford FAST, which is an autoparts train that rotated every 90 days between competing railroads from Michigan to California (It ran on the UP, D&RGW, WP, SP on the west end).
Here are some photo's showing typical auto parts cars in the Ford FAST.
In the top photo is a green P-S DT&I (Walthers) and blue Greenville DT&I (Tangent).
Middle photo is a green P-S Penn Central (Walthers) and red Thrall Santa Fe.
Bottom photo is a brown Greenville Southern (Tangent).
I've identified the other Walthers P-S 86 footers in other auto parts train photo's for my RR as well, so this is why I have not avoided Walthers. Granted the Walthers are not up to Tangent standards but in the absence of a better version, these will do; and they are a better looking than the old Athearn blue box 86' foot cars.
I also wanted a red Santa Fe Walther 86' as well, and I watched Ebay over time and eventually found a single for about $25 IIRC.
Now that we have the Tangnet Greenvilles and Walthers P-S, I'd love to see someone do the 4 door Thralls.
Larry--
I love the Kadee freight cars though some of the printing can be a bit light, but I also have a son who wants all modern stuff (though he does like some really big steam). I do not want to have two entire freight car fleets (am actually blowing out older prototypes on Ebay), so on our layout we have just "modern" (to us) freight cars. Yes, I'm totally cheating by decades by pulling autoracks and 86' boxcars with big steam, but Johnny also has Genesis 2.0 SD90MAC-H's and an MTH SD70M-2 to pull them with. I do have to say, the big stuff looks good behind a big 4-8-4 or 4-6-6-4.
I would have kept some brass but 1. wanted to generate some more funds for college costs and 2. "good quality" Santa Fe brass steam that actually runs well without considerable work was not possible for me to find for less than $1000 per engine. You may have been very fortunate indeed with the engines you acquired, that I cannot deny, and I hope you enjoy them thoroughly! I have a DM&IR 2-8-8-4 coming just because I always wanted one of those...and it will be 20% of the cost of a good brass one, which allows me to have some nice freight cars.
Since we only need 75 or so freight cars on the layout, and have most of what we'd ever "need", buying nice ones makes sense for us. I would not necessarily recommend that for others.
I bought the original release Intermountain Autoracks but did subsequently sell them after playing with them for awhile specifically because the screens didn't lay down flush and "look right". However, I basically got what I paid for them or very close to it. My buddy took them off my hands and was glad to get them, and a few went on Ebay.
Clearly, even then as well as now, there are people that have no problem spending $90 or $100 (depending upon how scarce the roadname is) for an Intermountain autorack. Maybe some here can't justify that, but the marketplace has spoken. The third run? Intermountain autoracks are out and mostly gone. One cannot even find some of the neat roadnames like FEC or the bright yellow UP shield versions, and I found a beautful bright yellow L&N one at English's.
I was hoping there would be a fall Timonium show as my buddy and I were hoping to find more autoracks--the roadnames that are gone from all the websites. Oh well.
Rio Grande--
Yes, I saw some of your posts elsewhere.
Santa Fe had many more Thrall hi cubes than Greenvilles...
When the big auto plants in California closed, Conrail bought large numbers of the 86' boxcars from Santa Fe. What I want to know is: does anyone have a listing of those cars that went to Conrail.
Today, BNSF owns zero 86' hi cubes, I think UP has very few if any left, CSX and NS have the lion's share, CN/CP have some remaining cars, and idk if KCS retains any at all. I would like to know more about that traffic.
My Mechanical Engineer friend got into the big plants because he designed specialty truck trailers. He told me he's seen plants big enough to house multiple rows of 10 86' hi cube boxcars at a time. With just in time delivery, the plants would load/unload 10 cars simultaneously. They'd have the 60' cars elsewhere on other indoor sidings.
Edit: CR hysterical society does have some information on the cars that came from other roads. It is hit or miss.
I like nicely detailed cars, but I also like to run my trains. Superdetailing isn't high on my list. I prefer to have near-perfect trackwork so derailments are rare.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
BRAKIEKevin, I am sure we all have our "over budget" price range. I had mine since I started buying trains 60 years ago.
I guess I could have been more clear in my post.
I was saying for certain special models that are only available in brass or resin, I will pay more.
For mass produced plastic car kits, $25.00 is about my limit. If Kadee can produce perfection at that price point, why should I ever pay more?
Living the dream.
Considering that I have copier boxes full of blue box kits that I bought in the 70s and 80s; and several tubs of blue box, MDC, and Accurail that I got at wholesale when I owned a hobby shop in the late 90s; I would say i have a lot of stuff that is priced right.
I guess it depends if you have the funds to justify paying for your toys.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Yes a lot of people plan for a railroad and it is amazing how many never build so much as a module. As to the detail of cars, even when running trains, most people have sidings and or a yard where the cars are not constantly moving.
For the contemporary era in which I model, equipment that has seen several owners is common. So the paint jobs should reflect patch jobs, relettering and renumbering, and faded original paint. As-built factory-new paint schemes are for collectors.....
Athearn is running a line with more accurate paint schemes for more contemporary eras called "Prime for Grime" series.
Its hard for a modeler to fade as built paint by weathering, (at least for me) as well as adding patch-outs without raising the texture or surface where the patch is, which the eye will definitely pick up.
An accurate contemporary paint job is just as important as the type of details applied, IMO.
- Douglas
riogrande5761 So what about Walthers autoracks, they are not high detail (all molded on) - I know, I have some. What about the operator versions from ScaleTrains more modern autorack? What about Accurail open autoracks available on the secondary market. These are examples of earlier, middle and later era auto racks without all the details.
So what about Walthers autoracks, they are not high detail (all molded on) - I know, I have some. What about the operator versions from ScaleTrains more modern autorack? What about Accurail open autoracks available on the secondary market. These are examples of earlier, middle and later era auto racks without all the details.
Those open ones are long gone if you're even close to contemporary.
Have you priced the Walthers ones on the secondhand market lately? They're commanding prices that rival what Intermountain's offerings hit the street at. I'll admit that I forgot about Scale Train's racks (which I consider a reasonable price), but I do think of them as a more...I don't want to say niche, but they're not as common. They're very, very new cars in real life. There's no "fleet filler" model available, because demand for the low detail versions has gone up so much that they match the price point for the very detailed one. That makes it a bit of a lose/lose
It's a hobby, buy what you feel is right. I have maybe a midsized Industrial Switching Layout based on the CN's Valley Sub. I run 2 through trains and that rollingstock is mainly Scaletrain Classics, Details West, Walthers, Athearn RTR and a few Accurail. No one, including me can see the details even at a 20 to 40 scale mph. My rolling stock that is run and switched a couple times a week at least consists of BLMA, ST's Rivet counters, Athearn Genesis. I like the details I can see on the slow moving or stopped cars that are being worked. Since 2014 retirement I have greatly changed my rolling stock and had been concentrating on modeling the year 2005 and now 2015. My 300 BB's were too varied and didn't fit the era. I now have the 2 through trains of 24 cars each. My switchable cars number 48 but don't all show up on the layout at the same time.The BB's were sold and that money turned into the above. Just remember when someone says too expensive for them, it may not be for you. Values differ from person to person.
TomO
DAVID FORTNEYSo is it really necessary to pay the high prices of extreme detail if your going to run them on a layout? Dave
No, it's not necessary...unless you really want extremely detailed locomotives and rolling stock running on your layout.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
NittanyLion Those open ones are long gone if you're even close to contemporary.
It depends on what era you are modeling. I didn't notice you mention era; only that you were lamenting the lack of lower detail autoracks.
Have you priced the Walthers ones on the secondhand market lately? They're commanding prices that rival what Intermountain's offerings hit the street at.
Yes, and of course you have to ignore the crazy's on Ebay - and shop around. I've seen them for prices in the $25-30 range, and some Walthers are the upgrade versions that cost more when new than the old kits. I've sold about half of my old kit built Walthers autoracks in the past few years for around $25 (assembled and with KD's). I had back dated to early 80's and most of the Walthers racks are late 80's thru mid 1990's and later. I've found if you are patient, you CAN find these models are fairly decent prices.
I'll admit that I forgot about Scale Train's racks (which I consider a reasonable price), but I do think of them as a more...I don't want to say niche, but they're not as common. They're very, very new cars in real life. There's no "fleet filler" model available, because demand for the low detail versions has gone up so much that they match the price point for the very detailed one. That makes it a bit of a lose/lose
You have to buy the operator version when they have them available. Snooze and wait for a future run. Point is, modern operator versions have been made.
For mass produced plastic car kits, $25.00 is about my limit. If Kadee can produce perfection at that price point, why should I ever pay more? -Kevin
I wouldn't call Kadee perfection and generally they cost much more than $25 although if you shop around, you can find them for that. I have.
The thing about Kadee is they are era limited and the freight cars they represent were gone or getting thin by the early 80's. I have bought a few that would have lingered into the late 1970's and a bit beyond.
Here is one thing I've noticed about Kadee box cars. Some of them look like they were not painted but molded in the color they are sold in. Examples, BN green (hideous). GN green: I have one and it looks almost translucent. ICG orange, also not so nice. Basically the only box cars that look decent are the brown ones, and maybe my dark green GM&O. No, not perfection. Many of the box cars are quite good but some not so much.
riogrande5761 For mass produced plastic car kits, $25.00 is about my limit. If Kadee can produce perfection at that price point, why should I ever pay more? -Kevin I wouldn't call Kadee perfection and generally they cost much more than $25 although if you shop around, you can find them for that. I have. The thing about Kadee is they are era limited and the freight cars they represent were gone or getting thin by the early 80's. I have bought a few that would have lingered into the late 1970's and a bit beyond. Here is one thing I've noticed about Kadee box cars. Some of them look like they were not painted but molded in the color they are sold in. Examples, BN green (hideous). GN green: I have one and it looks almost translucent. ICG orange, also not so nice. Basically the only box cars that look decent are the brown ones, and maybe my dark green GM&O. No, not perfection. Many of the box cars are quite good but some not so much.
And Scale Trains, Tangent, Moloco, ExactRail, etc, etc, are not "era limited" or selection limited in their offerings?
Those brands for the most part make very little or nothing in the era Kevin and I model.
Easier to make an excuse for an older car than for one that has not been built yet?
I started my 50's era piggyback fleet 30 years ago, and still the most detailed model anyone has offered is the Walthers 54' GSC flat car, a car that actually saw very limited piggyback conversion/use. But I have my share of those as well.
The recent Bachmann car is not bad with a little work.
The Athearn car remains in production and apparently sells despite its inaccuracies.
So, I'm glad I did not wait to buy/build my fleet of early piggybacks........
I like Kadee freight cars, but only have a few of them.
There is still a VERY LONG LIST of models that have NOT been done in high detail RTR.
Like I said before, I buy my share of the ones that fit my era and roster needs, but I'm not holding my breath, placing a bunch of preorders, or replacing what I have already.
Sheldon
riogrande5761 For mass produced plastic car kits, $25.00 is about my limit. If Kadee can produce perfection at that price point, why should I ever pay more? -Kevin I wouldn't call Kadee perfection and generally they cost much more than $25 although if you shop around, you can find them for that. I have.
I was talking about plastic kits. The Kadee PS-1 plastic kits retails for $26.00, and can be had for about $21.00 on MB Klein.
The Kadee kit is not perfection? What would you do better?
Everything fits easily and perfectly. Detail is spot-on, It comes with Kadee trucks and couplers in the box. The model weighs the correct weight. The molded on detail is amazing, there is never any flash or mold lines. And on and on and on...
I know of no better kit for any hobby at any price.
SeeYou190 riogrande5761 For mass produced plastic car kits, $25.00 is about my limit. If Kadee can produce perfection at that price point, why should I ever pay more? -Kevin I wouldn't call Kadee perfection and generally they cost much more than $25 although if you shop around, you can find them for that. I have. I was talking about plastic kits. The Kadee PS-1 plastic kits retails for $26.00, and can be had for about $21.00 on MB Klein. The Kadee kit is not perfection? What would you do better? Everything fits easily and perfectly. Detail is spot-on, It comes with Kadee trucks and couplers in the box. The model weighs the correct weight. The molded on detail is amazing, there is never any flash or mold lines. And on and on and on... I know of no better kit for any hobby at any price. -Kevin
Kevin, I assure you he is thinking RTR.......
ATLANTIC CENTRALKevin, I assure you he is thinking RTR.......
Probably, but I very clearly said mass produced plastic kits.
Oh well.
So here is a rundown, I model 1954:
ScaleTrains - no products in my era
Tangent Scale Models - the two gons, and all but one of the tank cars are in my era. I would like to get a few tank cars.
Moloco - no products in my era
ExactRail - B&O wagon top box cars their only product in my era.
FoxValley - again only B&O wagon tops (which I have), and a passenger train from a railroad I don't model.
Spring Mills Depot - 5 out of their eight projects so far in my era, I have the three that have been delivered, both RTR and undecorated kits.
Intermountain - tons of stuff in my era, and tons not in my era, I have mostly kits and F unit locos, not much RTR.
Kadee - all but one in my era, I have a few of their cars.
Athearn Genesis - No freight cars in my era, I do have my share of F units......
Rapido - 3 freight cars in my era, RDC's (which seem a little pricey to me), they lost their first potential sale to me when the dropped the undecorated PA's from the production run. I already had them preordered.......
I could not fill/replace half, or even a third, of my current 1,200 car roster with current or recent high end/high detail RTR rolling stock matching car types and paint schemes.
Guess I will just keep my Athearn Ready to Roll and Blue Box, old MDC, Athearn and Varney metal cars, Bowser, Accurail, older Walthers, TrainsMinature, Silver Streak wood kits, Atlas, F&C resin kits, Westerfield resin kits, ConCor passenger cars, and a long list of other "sub standard" model trains - which are for my purposes all reasonable representations of trains from the era I model.
So the point is, no matter if you like these high detail RTR cars, you will not find all the cars you many need or want for your modeling if you plan to present a realistic and complete operational roster for a given era and road.
I model 1939 roughly. Tangent has some tank cars, MTH has some hoppers, Intermountain, lots of boxcars and reefers along with Atlas. Ertl had boxcars and a few other like flat (these were early Tichy or Gould when they were made). Proto 2000 has some tank and stock cars. Branchline had reefers. Was hopeing someone would do 36' box etc., but they were done by Accurail, not detailed enough.
I like the Kadee cars, but I generally can't find recent releases (assembled rtr) for $25. Then as stated well above, I would want the ICG boxcar, but molded in orange (and I love bright colors) it is "too much" "too translucent" and just doesn't look right to me especially next to anything from Intermountain/Tangent/Exactrail in that paint scheme, so yes, I owned a couple but they didn't look right at all and had to go. Some Kadee cars also have gorgeous sprung trucks that do not roll well at all (replace with plastic Kadee trucks and you can pull twice as many).
I'm not here to bash Kadee, but the time period of their products generally doesn't work for me. They are great cars for up to the early '80's.
I should've kept the Conrail covered hopper to have one.
PRR8259 I like the Kadee cars, but I generally can't find recent releases (assembled rtr) for $25. Then as stated well above, I would want the ICG boxcar, but molded in orange (and I love bright colors) it is "too much" "too translucent" and just doesn't look right to me especially next to anything from Intermountain/Tangent/Exactrail in that paint scheme, so yes, I owned a couple but they didn't look right at all and had to go. Some Kadee cars also have gorgeous sprung trucks that do not roll well at all (replace with plastic Kadee trucks and you can pull twice as many). I'm not here to bash Kadee, but the time period of their products generally doesn't work for me. They are great cars for up to the early '80's. I should've kept the Conrail covered hopper to have one. John
I don't follow Kadee cars closely but the recent release do seem to go for around $39 give or take. I do see some Kadee rolling stock on Ebay for around $25 often enough.
But yeah, the colored boxcars (orange, green in particular) look wrong to me too, partly the shade and partly sort of translucent. My guess here is they are molded in those colors to save on production costs since they are made in the US, but in these cases, it seems to compromise the appearance negatively.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And Scale Trains, Tangent, Moloco, ExactRail, etc, etc, are not "era limited" or selection limited in their offerings?
I was responding to Kevin regarding the Kadee freight cars, not other brands.
ATLANTIC CENTRALExactRail - B&O wagon top box cars their only product in my era.
Wouldn't the '40 MILW ribbed boxcars fit in your era, Sheldon? - i.e. unless they would have been re-painted by '54. Finding an Exactrail version of that unique boxcar may be difficult these days but they are very nice models.
tstage ATLANTIC CENTRAL ExactRail - B&O wagon top box cars their only product in my era. Wouldn't the '40 MILW ribbed boxcars fit in your era, Sheldon? - i.e. unless they would have been re-painted by '54. Finding an Exactrail version of that unique boxcar may be difficult these days but they are very nice models. Tom
ATLANTIC CENTRAL ExactRail - B&O wagon top box cars their only product in my era.
I went by what was currently on their web site.
I already have MILW rib side cars in kit form when they were offered by, none other than, RIB SIDE CAR COMPANY.