tstageAre lighting effects easily turned on/off or adjusted (e.g. pulse rate, type) using DC? Or, is that something that is pre-set by the factor boards that come with the locomotive?
Tom, I only have a few DC locomotives that have electronic lighting control boards in them. These are preset for their functions at the factory and as far as I know, cannot be adjusted.
With my old style 1950s fleet this is mostly just for directional/constant lighting.
There is only one I am not happy with. This one is set so the Mars Light only works when the locomotive is going backwards. That is a shame, because the Mars Light effect is spot-on.
I do not have any newer locomotive models with beacons, ditch lights, or working marker lights, so I cannot comment on these features in DC operation.
Sheldon can offer more information. I am sure he has more of these than I do.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
ATLANTIC CENTRALTom, a number of my DC diesels have factory constant lighting with working Mars lights, they are very effective, especially on the full voltage pulses of PWM control. This is not a criticism, just an observation. Many "newer" modelers who went with DCC early or right away in their modeling, are simply and completely unaware of what has been done, and is commonly done with DC.
This is not a criticism, just an observation. Many "newer" modelers who went with DCC early or right away in their modeling, are simply and completely unaware of what has been done, and is commonly done with DC.
Sheldon,
Are lighting effects easily turned on/off or adjusted (e.g. pulse rate, type) using DC? Or, is that something that is pre-set by the factor boards that come with the locomotive? I'm guessing they are pre-set and cannont be adjusted or changed to another type.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Yes, it seems sound is the tipping point for some. For me lights are a who cares but sound I like, but only in steam.
tstage eaglescout One thing I have not seen mentioned--"Imagination." All my years as a kid and now as a 73 year old I can "hear" the bells and whistles and "see" the lights without the need for expensive DCC operation. If you want it fine but we already deprive kids of using their imaginations for so many things. Eagle, I hear and agree with you about imagination - especially when it comes to our younger population. That's why I always recommend something like Brio for the 2-6 age group rather than an electric train set. I believe it allows kids to engage their imagination and hone their dexterity and handskills by taking apart and rearrange the train and the track to whatever configuration comes to mind. I call that "discovery and learning". While I do have sound in some of my locomotives, it's not that important to me and I'll mostly run them with F8 muted. When unmuted, I enjoy sound much more with steam locomotives than I do diesel. OTOH, while I can "hear" the bell & whistle in my mind, I do really enjoy lighting. For me, it adds a realism to operation and I like adding it to structures, light poles, and my locomotives. When I was able to install and operate a flashing gyralight to the rear taillight of my Con-Cor NYC Aerotrain using a separate TCS FL4 (light-function only) decoder, it took realism to another level for me. I'm not sure how practical or possible the latter would be in DC. Lighting on the layout, however, can easily be added and "adjusted" (for both realism and longevity) using the output of a spare DC power pack. Tom
eaglescout One thing I have not seen mentioned--"Imagination." All my years as a kid and now as a 73 year old I can "hear" the bells and whistles and "see" the lights without the need for expensive DCC operation. If you want it fine but we already deprive kids of using their imaginations for so many things.
Eagle,
I hear and agree with you about imagination - especially when it comes to our younger population. That's why I always recommend something like Brio for the 2-6 age group rather than an electric train set. I believe it allows kids to engage their imagination and hone their dexterity and handskills by taking apart and rearrange the train and the track to whatever configuration comes to mind. I call that "discovery and learning".
While I do have sound in some of my locomotives, it's not that important to me and I'll mostly run them with F8 muted. When unmuted, I enjoy sound much more with steam locomotives than I do diesel.
OTOH, while I can "hear" the bell & whistle in my mind, I do really enjoy lighting. For me, it adds a realism to operation and I like adding it to structures, light poles, and my locomotives. When I was able to install and operate a flashing gyralight to the rear taillight of my Con-Cor NYC Aerotrain using a separate TCS FL4 (light-function only) decoder, it took realism to another level for me. I'm not sure how practical or possible the latter would be in DC. Lighting on the layout, however, can easily be added and "adjusted" (for both realism and longevity) using the output of a spare DC power pack.
Tom, a number of my DC diesels have factory constant lighting with working Mars lights, they are very effective, especially on the full voltage pulses of PWM control.
Yet they are quick to tell those of us with more experiance what is lacking from DC?
The biggest thing lacking from DC is sound, if you want sound you need DCC.
EXCEPT, I have plans for layout based bells, whistles, and horns in places they are commonly used.
Sheldon
I faced the decision to possibly changing my DC/block controlled layout a couple of years ago. Based on the size of my motive power fleet, I decided that the initial cost of switching over to be more than I wanted to spend. I know that I could have had it DC/DCC controlled, but now that I'm getting older (read less flexible), working under the layout has become a major issue.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
eaglescoutOne thing I have not seen mentioned--"Imagination." All my years as a kid and now as a 73 year old I can "hear" the bells and whistles and "see" the lights without the need for expensive DCC operation. If you want it fine but we already deprive kids of using their imaginations for so many things.
OTOH, while I can "hear" the bell & whistle in my mind, I really enjoy lighting. For me, it adds a realism to operation and I like adding it to structures, light poles, and my locomotives. When I was able to install and operate a flashing gyralight to the rear taillight of my Con-Cor NYC Aerotrain using a separate TCS FL4 (light-function only) decoder, it took realism to another level for me. I'm not sure how practical or possible the latter would be in DC. Lighting on the layout, however, can easily be added and "adjusted" (for both realism and longevity) using the output of a spare DC power pack.
Overmod ATLANTIC CENTRAL And I have grades, and pull long trains that actually require this power. How often would BEMF actually work? I keep seeing this kind of discussion, but it doesn't really apply. Reading BEMF from a voltage-controlled motor ONLY gives you an idea of how quickly it is turning. (You can then pulse power, tinker with average or 'wave formed' voltage, etc. to modulate that SPEED). [Note that the other thing BEMF can be used, or abused, for is a rotational speed that can be manipulated for a sort of 'chuff synchronization' in sound generation, a thing perhaps safest restricted to short and well-characterized link between motor and controller!] "Load" is a function of current, amperage, and I'd expect that while high amp draw can cause voltage sag this is insignificant with good feeders, so load control can be assumed related to amp draw. (Which can be sensed and used 'in servo' for voltage control of the motor for 'cruise control', etc. as per Westcott's 'load regulation' that was supposedly not too well liked). What doesn't get helped is the inherent physical voltage drop from the throttle to the motor, which likely varies with distance and position on the layout, so would require a secondary measurement of calibrating resistance if BEMF were to work accurately for DC throttke implementation. I think it would be possible to adapt Linn Westcott's idea of plugs with calibrated resistance, not in the throttle but in the locomotives, to let you match at least a reference level of BEMF for consisting, and I certainly see comments from people who say they are implementing BEMF on DC, so there may be a way. Personally I think an adjusted constant-current power circuit is more likely to give you 'power control' than the speed modulation via voltage control. Both these issues are distinct from either PWM as a means of providing variable DC voltage or 'pulse power' or ripple to modulate motor speed for the usual variety of reasons. There are people already in this thread who were among my resources in learning some of this stuff, so it isn't mystery weird science.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And I have grades, and pull long trains that actually require this power. How often would BEMF actually work?
I keep seeing this kind of discussion, but it doesn't really apply.
Reading BEMF from a voltage-controlled motor ONLY gives you an idea of how quickly it is turning. (You can then pulse power, tinker with average or 'wave formed' voltage, etc. to modulate that SPEED). [Note that the other thing BEMF can be used, or abused, for is a rotational speed that can be manipulated for a sort of 'chuff synchronization' in sound generation, a thing perhaps safest restricted to short and well-characterized link between motor and controller!]
"Load" is a function of current, amperage, and I'd expect that while high amp draw can cause voltage sag this is insignificant with good feeders, so load control can be assumed related to amp draw. (Which can be sensed and used 'in servo' for voltage control of the motor for 'cruise control', etc. as per Westcott's 'load regulation' that was supposedly not too well liked).
What doesn't get helped is the inherent physical voltage drop from the throttle to the motor, which likely varies with distance and position on the layout, so would require a secondary measurement of calibrating resistance if BEMF were to work accurately for DC throttke implementation. I think it would be possible to adapt Linn Westcott's idea of plugs with calibrated resistance, not in the throttle but in the locomotives, to let you match at least a reference level of BEMF for consisting, and I certainly see comments from people who say they are implementing BEMF on DC, so there may be a way. Personally I think an adjusted constant-current power circuit is more likely to give you 'power control' than the speed modulation via voltage control.
Both these issues are distinct from either PWM as a means of providing variable DC voltage or 'pulse power' or ripple to modulate motor speed for the usual variety of reasons.
There are people already in this thread who were among my resources in learning some of this stuff, so it isn't mystery weird science.
Agreed, I was simply commenting on Greg's remarks about those who have had trouble with BEMF and multiple unit consists.
Personally, I don't need my throttles to work any better than they already do.
Location on the layout, or grades, or actual load has never been an issue that I saw as a problem.
I am very happy with the pushbutton controls on the TE.
I have no interest in "proto throttles", momentum, braking, etc.
The TE does have momentum built in. You set the rate in the throttle, it is relatively easy to change.
Even at the minimum setting which in theory is "off", there is a "ramp up" speed to the design of the throttle as you hold down the button. I keep mine set at this minimum or "off" setting.
My point remains, any minor difference between DCC and good DC PWM is likely within the range of variation that you are going to see in the mechanical side anyway - every loco will be slightly different, some will be better than others.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAnd I have grades, and pull long trains that actually require this power. How often would BEMF actually work?
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL BEMF is not a universal feature of DCC, as not all decoders have it, and some modelers report problems with it in some locos and have to turn it off. as i mentioned earlier with multiple locos, bemf does not accurately indicate the load the motor is expected to pull. i've read that it's often recommended to disable bemf when consisting locos because the control algorithms in each decoder are not synchronized. when one decoder lowers the drive voltage the other may see a greater load and increase the voltage. I think Thomas Edison had a similar problem with his first generators until he realized he needed to mechanically link the govenors on all the generators
ATLANTIC CENTRAL BEMF is not a universal feature of DCC, as not all decoders have it, and some modelers report problems with it in some locos and have to turn it off.
as i mentioned earlier with multiple locos, bemf does not accurately indicate the load the motor is expected to pull. i've read that it's often recommended to disable bemf when consisting locos because the control algorithms in each decoder are not synchronized.
when one decoder lowers the drive voltage the other may see a greater load and increase the voltage.
I think Thomas Edison had a similar problem with his first generators until he realized he needed to mechanically link the govenors on all the generators
And so, as a practical matter, as it applies to my modeling, nearly every train on my layout is pulled by more than one powered unit.
I model a big Class I in the early 50's. Steam powered trains are typically double headed, diesel powered trains have two, three and four unit consists, sometimes more, even switching is often two SW's or ALCO S's back to back.
And I have grades, and pull long trains that actually require this power. How often would BEMF actually work?
One more note about the TRAIN ENGINEER performance. Not in all cases, but when I see a difference in performance between the TE and the same loco on DCC, the difference is this, a slightly, only slighly, higher starting speed from a dead stop.
Example, on DCC a given loco consistantly starts at 1.5 smph, on the TE it might not start until 2 or 2.5 smph. BUT, on the TE the chance for stalling after it does start is way less, almost zero.
And despite the higher starting speed, the actual "start" of the locomotive is just as "smooth" as the DCC version, you can actually see the "ramping up" of the speed.
When slowing down a loco on the TE, it is often possible to get a slower running speed than the "start" speed, again with little chance of stalling thru turnouts or other changing track conditions.
I personally have no need to run trains that slow. The push button controls on the TE allow for smooth control and smooth stops and coupling once you have some practice.
My observation of the prototype also suggests that actually going any distance at 1 mph is simply not a reality.
Keep in mind, none of my locos have decoders, they will not work with the TE. Most do have factory DC light boards, some have been rewired with homemade lighting circuits.
Most, but not all, of my diesel lashups are matched units from the same brand, but no extra effort has usually been needed to match their speeds. Sometimes adjustments to lighting board circuits is about the only thing.
But many of the locos made in the last 25-30 years have similar gearing and motors across multiple brands and they run fine together.
Same with steam, I run some matched pairs, but I also run different wheel arrangements, from different brands, with no problems.
Just one example - my Proto 2-8-8-2's (now 2-8-8-0's) run perfectly with my Spectrum 2-6-6-2's - no decoders, no speed matching, no consisting steps, no addresses.
Are there some locos who's speed and starting voltage make them simply not a pair? sure. I can live with that.
ATLANTIC CENTRALBEMF is not a universal feature of DCC, as not all decoders have it, and some modelers report problems with it in some locos and have to turn it off.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
BRAKIEMTH DCC locomotives will slow down while going down hill when operated in DC.
it makes sense that a DC motor under load (going uphill) and with constant drive voltage will reduce rpm which reduces bemf allowing more current and torque to adjust to the load.
a DCC decoder that uses bemf to maintain speed in that same loco will increase the drive voltage to maintain a constant bemf and rpm
since you said your loco slows down using DC, it sounds like the DCC decoder uses bemf to maintain the speed going uphill.
Linn Westcott discussed his current sensing circuit in the TAT-V(?) saying it could be adjust to actually increase speed going uphill and visa versa. there are multiple approaches, both analog and digital/firmware to manage speed
A few more thoughts, BEMF is not a universal feature of DCC, as not all decoders have it, and some modelers report problems with it in some locos and have to turn it off.
Likewise PWM is by no means a universal feature of DC, with only a handful of PWM DC throttles ever being on the market.
But both cases likely represent premium motor control for their respective systems.
The mechanical quality of the loco is still an important factor here. BEMF and PWM will not fix a bad driveline, but will bring out the best in a good driveline.
gregc one feature of DCC that i don't see mentioned is the decoder monitoring BEMF to estimate motor rpm and adjust voltage to maintain it, especially at low speeds. i'm not aware of any DC throttle that does this and not sure how practical it would be over a length of track and wire, the affect of lights or when running multiple locos also not sure how a length of track affects PWM or pulse power. i think there's a big advantage driving the motor directly with just an inch or so of wiring between the motor and drive circuit
one feature of DCC that i don't see mentioned is the decoder monitoring BEMF to estimate motor rpm and adjust voltage to maintain it, especially at low speeds.
i'm not aware of any DC throttle that does this and not sure how practical it would be over a length of track and wire, the affect of lights or when running multiple locos
also not sure how a length of track affects PWM or pulse power. i think there's a big advantage driving the motor directly with just an inch or so of wiring between the motor and drive circuit
BEMF does in some cases out perform DC PWM delivered thru the track. But based on my experiance and testing with the ARISTO TRAIN ENGINEER, the difference is small or unmeasurable with most high quality locos.
I have been using the TRAIN ENGINEER for nearly two decades, I installed a version of my Advanced Cab Control on the layout of a friend about 15 years ago, also using the TRAIN ENGINEER throttles.
That layout was the subject of operating sessions by a round robin group, many of the members are DCC users. They liked the TRAIN ENGINEER and many noted it performaance to be basically equal to DCC.
My old layout had blocks as long as 60' with a single feeder, the other layout had blocks 20' to 30' with single feeders. That seemed to have no negative effect on the performance of the locos.
My new layout will also have blocks in the 60' range.
I use filtered and regulated power supplies at 13.8 volts. The TRAIN ENGINEER does not come with its own power supply. And I would suspect the quality of power in effects the quality of power out....
Both on my layout, and on my friend's layout, we use a #12 throttle buss to distribute the throttle power around the layout. Relay panels that connect the throttles to the blocks are located near the block in question and are conncected to the track with #18 or #20 going out to track.
All my rail joints are soldered within every block, a practice I have followed for 50 plus years.
gregcone feature of DCC that i don't see mentioned is the decoder monitoring BEMF to estimate motor rpm and adjust voltage to maintain it, especially at low speeds.
Creg, For what its worth and that may not be worth a hill of beans MTH DCC locomotives will slow down while going down hill when operated in DC.
As I mention on page one of this topic I adjust the start volt,speed step and start/stop mometum.
If the decoder has "throttle notching" you can make DCC engines sound like they are working hard.I seen this once and was told speed step and momentum made this possible.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
See You wrote: "If you are using turnouts for power routing, you might have problems switching to DCC, and might want to start a new thread so the DCC guys can weigh in and give you good information."
I use HO Kato Unitrack (like you did), and some of the switches are power-routing by design (#4 powered), others are "switchable" either way.
I've had no problems with dcc v. switches at all. I do insulate the joints behind some of the power-routing switches (but not all). I prefer the way that some sidings and yard tracks can be "shut down" by lining the switch against them.
I even have one switch set so that it "power routes" on the diverging route, but doesn't on the normal route (easy to do with the little screws on the underside of Kato manual switches)...
ATLANTIC CENTRAL...Here is what I can't do: I can't run two locomotives into each other head on. I can only couple a moving locomotive to a parked one on special tracks in the engine terminal. I can't control the speed of a pusher independently, while pushers can work in DC, it is not a feature I require. I can't control headlights independently - and I don't need or want to. Sheldon
My DC "can't-dos" are similar to Sheldon's, but I don't using working lights at all, and often run helpers and/or pushers with no problems, using DC.I can't imagine anyone using DC by reason of nostalgia...for me, it's easy to wire and simple to use, and does everything I want or need it to do.
Basic DC wiring 101:
...can't get much simpler than that.
Wayne
Kevin and all--
Thank you for the suggestions regarding starting another topic, but my friend who is taking over a train store is also a mechanical engineer for his "real" job (that he's reducing his hours working), so I'm all set. I really have all the technical help I'm going to need. He said my layout would be an easy conversion, really, and he has operated the layout himself.
My only concern is voltage drop in the mainline, which I'll find out if I truly have enough feeder wires. Since it works for DC, I think it'll be ok.
Someday I'll have to help him build a layout to run his 1000+ ho freight cars on...but we aren't there yet.
John
rrebellNot true if gapped correctly.
Absolutely correct. If the gaps are close to the frog, and the two paths are constantly energized beyond the gaps, there should be no issues.
When you said you were using power routing turnouts I assumed you meant you were using them to turn the sidings on and off, which is what I do.
As always, I am sure the guys with lots of actual DCC experience can explain it all better than I am able to.
SeeYou190 PRR8259 My dc layout has all power routing turnouts and no traditional "blocks" at all, so won't be an issue to convert to dcc. If you are using turnouts for power routing, you might have problems switching to DCC, and might want to start a new thread so the DCC guys can weigh in and give you good information. If you have a DCC locomotive on a power routed section, and you throw the turnout, that DCC locomotive will turn off. Then when you throw the switch back, it will "come-to-life" and got through the start up sequence again. Again, if you start a new thread about converting a layout with power routing turnouts to DCC you will get some much better information than I can give. -Kevin
PRR8259 My dc layout has all power routing turnouts and no traditional "blocks" at all, so won't be an issue to convert to dcc.
If you are using turnouts for power routing, you might have problems switching to DCC, and might want to start a new thread so the DCC guys can weigh in and give you good information.
If you have a DCC locomotive on a power routed section, and you throw the turnout, that DCC locomotive will turn off. Then when you throw the switch back, it will "come-to-life" and got through the start up sequence again.
Again, if you start a new thread about converting a layout with power routing turnouts to DCC you will get some much better information than I can give.
Kevin--
Thank you for your concern.
All my sidings are double ended. They only go dead when both turnouts are closed which is acceptable.
PRR8259My dc layout has all power routing turnouts and no traditional "blocks" at all, so won't be an issue to convert to dcc.
I have relatively little nostalgia for older model railroad products.
There were 40 year old trains that survived from childhood, but they had seen better days, did not run all that great anymore, and all of them save one Mantua-Tyco trolley were thrown away. The trolley is in really nice condition, so I kept it as a reminder. My dad would glue painted figures into stuff; the guy in the trolley did finally fall out not that long ago, and I didn't bother to put him back. I guess I keep the trolley as a tangible reminder of all the time spent in the train room with Dad. Everything else has been replaced.
My dc layout has all power routing turnouts and no traditional "blocks" at all, so won't be an issue to convert to dcc.
However, if it were not for the sound and lighting features that my son wants, we would NOT be converting over to dcc at all.
Engines that crawl??? I have the MRC Tech 7 controller. It's awesome--I reset one BLI ATSF 2-10-2 to factory defaults recently at the train store, and they commented on how well it ran in dcc--very slowly. When I got it home and put it on the track, I noticed it did just as well in plain dc. There was no difference at all in slow speed operation.
I have no nostalga for anything model railroading except a few brass engines. Could just buy all new but see no need. Could just run both as I have been (just two wires to switch). My switches are not DCC freindly but that is only an issue if I run a switch.
xboxtravis7992 If your entering this hobby brand new completely, my advice is just go for DCC from the get go. Its 2020, most locomotives are DCC or DCC Ready (DC engines with plug and play slots for DCC). In another 15-30 years I imagine the majority of the more serious side of this hobby (I.E. the people who aren't doing Christmas tree loops or simple set ups for their kids) will be completely dominated by DCC with large DC only layouts considered a relic of the past, and the argument in discussions like this will be fully between DCC and Dead Rail Battery systems. All the pre-90's DC engines like old Bachmann's, Athearn and Tyco engines will either be in attic storage boxes or the landfill by then too, with old brass and collectible toy trains being likely the only 20th century built locomotives to survive in the layouts of the future.It doesn't take me far to really find evidence for that claim either. I can think of absolutely zero DC operators in my area. All my friends are DCC (a sample range from late-40's to late teens). Some are pro-sound, some are anti-sound; but all are DCC. Its the only common way to ensure our equipement can work if we visit each other's set ups, and those that have DC locomotives consider how they can shove a decoder in there and make the conversion. Would you rather drive a Model-T or a Tesla Model-S? Fly on the Wright Flyer or an Airbus? Use a telegraph or a laptop? Yes vintage equipment can have a nostalgic appeal (steam preservation and historical ambience is arguably the cornerstone of this whole railfan hobby), but in another 10 years that old Bachmann GP40-2 from 1976 ain't going to have the same historical value of say a real 1:1 scale GP40-2 in a museum. Unless there is some sentimental value in say "running grandpa or dad's old trains" the death of DC in large layouts is only a matter of time.Yeah I argued with emotion, I dare say that the emotion of nostalgia is the main defense DC has ever really had these last few years.
If your entering this hobby brand new completely, my advice is just go for DCC from the get go. Its 2020, most locomotives are DCC or DCC Ready (DC engines with plug and play slots for DCC). In another 15-30 years I imagine the majority of the more serious side of this hobby (I.E. the people who aren't doing Christmas tree loops or simple set ups for their kids) will be completely dominated by DCC with large DC only layouts considered a relic of the past, and the argument in discussions like this will be fully between DCC and Dead Rail Battery systems. All the pre-90's DC engines like old Bachmann's, Athearn and Tyco engines will either be in attic storage boxes or the landfill by then too, with old brass and collectible toy trains being likely the only 20th century built locomotives to survive in the layouts of the future.It doesn't take me far to really find evidence for that claim either. I can think of absolutely zero DC operators in my area. All my friends are DCC (a sample range from late-40's to late teens). Some are pro-sound, some are anti-sound; but all are DCC. Its the only common way to ensure our equipement can work if we visit each other's set ups, and those that have DC locomotives consider how they can shove a decoder in there and make the conversion. Would you rather drive a Model-T or a Tesla Model-S? Fly on the Wright Flyer or an Airbus? Use a telegraph or a laptop? Yes vintage equipment can have a nostalgic appeal (steam preservation and historical ambience is arguably the cornerstone of this whole railfan hobby), but in another 10 years that old Bachmann GP40-2 from 1976 ain't going to have the same historical value of say a real 1:1 scale GP40-2 in a museum. Unless there is some sentimental value in say "running grandpa or dad's old trains" the death of DC in large layouts is only a matter of time.Yeah I argued with emotion, I dare say that the emotion of nostalgia is the main defense DC has ever really had these last few years.
richhotrain Since DCC can do more than DC, and since DC cannot do everything that DCC can do, DCC is the logical choice for everyone except the most passionate DC user. I cannot explain it any more unemotionally than that. Rich
Since DCC can do more than DC, and since DC cannot do everything that DCC can do, DCC is the logical choice for everyone except the most passionate DC user. I cannot explain it any more unemotionally than that.
Rich
Agreed, and DCC is especially valueable for those new to the hobby who have yet to decide how or what they want to model.
If their modeling goals remain modest, then DCC will be similar in cost to DC as well.
If they later pursue a large layout, or a large loco fleet, or signaling, they need to be prepared for a somewhat higher cost.
richhotrainSince DCC can do more than DC, and since DC cannot do everything that DCC can do, DCC is the logical choice for everyone except the most passionate DC user.
Rich, That is true. I find setting speed steps, start volt and start/stop momentum a big plus for switching on my ISLs. I suspect many modelers would not like my CV set up on my DCC/Sound engines since they will find the need to close the throttle two car lenghts from the switch point due to the momentum setting. Forget any fast switching on the Summerset Ry or SCR.
To be fair my CM II and CM has momentum and braking..
Alton Junction
Motley ATLANTIC CENTRAL Michael, If you like sound you need DCC and that is clearly the best choice for you. And I agree DCC programming is no big deal. But let's not get into what DC can't do based on your admittedly limited experiance. Consisting - DC locomotives can be coupled together, forward, back to back, whatever, and they all move in the same direction, left or right, together. And if their gearing and starting voltage is similar, they generally run fine together, especially pulling a train that needs the power. I have been pulling 40 car trains with ABBA diesel lash ups on DC for over 4 decades now. It works fine. Lights - many quality DC locomotives have constant brightness lighting that provide full brightness at all speeds. And with some high quality throttles, even provide full brightness lighting before the loco moves. Slow speed control - not all DC power packs are created equal. Some provide dramatically better speed control than others. The DC throttles I use provide slow speeds equal or similar to DCC. Sheldon Really? wow I learned something about DC. Had no idea it could do all that.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Michael, If you like sound you need DCC and that is clearly the best choice for you. And I agree DCC programming is no big deal. But let's not get into what DC can't do based on your admittedly limited experiance. Consisting - DC locomotives can be coupled together, forward, back to back, whatever, and they all move in the same direction, left or right, together. And if their gearing and starting voltage is similar, they generally run fine together, especially pulling a train that needs the power. I have been pulling 40 car trains with ABBA diesel lash ups on DC for over 4 decades now. It works fine. Lights - many quality DC locomotives have constant brightness lighting that provide full brightness at all speeds. And with some high quality throttles, even provide full brightness lighting before the loco moves. Slow speed control - not all DC power packs are created equal. Some provide dramatically better speed control than others. The DC throttles I use provide slow speeds equal or similar to DCC. Sheldon
Michael,
If you like sound you need DCC and that is clearly the best choice for you. And I agree DCC programming is no big deal.
But let's not get into what DC can't do based on your admittedly limited experiance.
Consisting - DC locomotives can be coupled together, forward, back to back, whatever, and they all move in the same direction, left or right, together. And if their gearing and starting voltage is similar, they generally run fine together, especially pulling a train that needs the power.
I have been pulling 40 car trains with ABBA diesel lash ups on DC for over 4 decades now. It works fine.
Lights - many quality DC locomotives have constant brightness lighting that provide full brightness at all speeds. And with some high quality throttles, even provide full brightness lighting before the loco moves.
Slow speed control - not all DC power packs are created equal. Some provide dramatically better speed control than others. The DC throttles I use provide slow speeds equal or similar to DCC.
Really? wow I learned something about DC. Had no idea it could do all that.
And much more...... I have wireless radio throttles, my operators are not stuck at control panels, they walk around with their trains and push a few buttons, just like DCC operators who control turnouts as they walk around a layout.
With a CTC dispatcher on duty, the mainline operators do not even have to throw turnouts......push any buttons, or "flip" any toggles...... they just run their loco.
I have signals, if you run a red one, your train just stops, nothing bad happens.....
Two or three trains, each with their own operator, can easily follow each other round the same route on the mainline, with or without the dispatcher. the mainline on the new layout will be about 400' long.
Here is what I can't do:
I can't run two locomotives into each other head on.
I can only couple a moving locomotive to a parked one on special tracks in the engine terminal.
I can't control the speed of a pusher independently, while pushers can work in DC, it is not a feature I require.
I can't control headlights independently - and I don't need or want to.