All -
I reached out to LAsrkspur/Monster ModelWorks and they provided me with a solutions:
A) Although somehow I had overlooked it on their website, they provide corner pieces that match the sheet https://www.larkspurlaserart.com/product-page/ho-scale-1-8-aged-american-brick-corners Problem 1 solved
B) For the cornice issues, they now offer -- just went up on their web site yesterday in fact, perfectly matching 1/32 in thick brick sheet that can be used to model layered cornices at the top of the wall.
C) They also pointed me to an MRH article that is an incredibly detailed 29 page how to entitled, "Scratchbuilding With Monster Model Works Brick" by Dave Karkoski that provides tons of details and tips including how he layered the cornicework.
Jimmy at MMW was incredibly helpful and fast to respond to my initial query in the "chat" box on the Larkspur website https://www.larkspurlaserart.com/
I recommend them highly!
Best,
Ed
What happens if you make a carefully aligned double 45-degree inside miter to form the 'box' of the pilaster and then a butt joint at proper depth, also carefully aligned, with the 'wall' sheet? That should give you brick 'all the way'...
cnjman721....but here's a problem -- making wall pilasters...
I'd guess that the brick detail on plastic pilasters will be noticeably different than that on the very nicely-done wood sheets. You may be able to cut pilaster material from the wood sheet, then thin it somewhat using sandpaper, but you'd still need to scribe mortar lines on the edges.
Despite the great appearance of those sheets, I've not been all that enthusiastic about using wood for anything on my model railroad since discovering styrene building materials. I'd do your roundhouse using styrene brick sheets and pilasters, and save the wood-version brick for another structure that won't need pilasters. If you use some of the Tichy or Grandt Line windows and doors made for use in masonary, in the laser-etched wood, you could still create a contest-quality model that could also be placed front & centre on your layout. While this would, of course, require an additional outlay, I'm sure that you'll need other structures besides that roundhouse, so the money spent on the wood version wouldn't be lost, but merely re-allocated for another project.
Wayne
Hey all --
Well, my basswood brick material arrived from Monster Modelworks/Larkspur today and they are beautiful. Have any of you used their sheets in a scratchbuilt structure? The "sheets" are really walls unto themselves because they appear to be high quality basswood and are 1/8 in. thick, which is great for structural strength, but here's a problem -- making wall pilasters.
At first, I thought I'd just slice a section as wide and long as the pilaster and glue it atop the wall to create the pilaster, much as I have seen done with sucessive layers of styrene brick. However, the Larkspur bricks and mortar lines are probably near prototypically thick and deep, so on edge, the sheet shows at least 3/32 in plain, smooth wood.
If you look at my avatar picture of the CNJ roundhouse behind the camelback, you'll see exactly what I'm trying to create.
I suppose I could take a strip of the basswood brick sheet and carefully carve mortar lines and brick rows into the smooth "sides" of the pilasters, but I'm afraid I'd never be able to match the precision lines of the laser cut Larkspur sheets.
Any suggestions? Do you think that using some syrene brick sheet material to "layer" on pilasters would work? If that's the case it might be smarter to just do the whole thing in styrene brick but that means duplicating the sunk cost (~$20) of the wood sheets. I'd like to find a solution before I start cutting into the Larkspur material.
Thanks, y'all
Clickable link:
https://www.larkspurlaserart.com/ho-brick-sheets
Those walls are really nice!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Wow -- That is just what I was looking for!
Thankjs for this tip! Sure glad I turned to the forum to explore answers!
millraceTake a look at Monster Model Works: https://www.larkspurlaserart.com/ho-brick-sheets
That is sheer genius, and I am kicking myself for not even thinking of that method on that substrate.
Even a photo of brick could be scanned out as a raster to get reasonable results...
I'd be tempted to get a couple of these, seal the wood carefully, and then make reverse molds of all or part for TF-style stamped molding... just don't sell the castings in competition; those guys deserve their profit margin.
Take a look at Monster Model Works:
cnjman721From the existing photos I have been able to make out that both used the "Common" or "American" bond because with contrast enhancement and good magnification, I can make out 5 rows of stretchers between rows of headers.
Hi Ed,
Walthers brick sheets have 6 rows of 'stretchers' between the 'headers'. They describe the walls as "7th-Row Lock Brick...".
https://www.walthers.com/brick-sheet-4-x-9-3-4-quot-10-1-x-24-7cm-pkg-4-dark-red
https://www.walthers.com/brick-sheet-4-x-9-3-4-quot-10-1-x-24-7cm-pkg-4-light-red
Overmod --
When I was in college (quite a few decades ago) I worked for a contractor a couple of summers and actually laid some brick walls. Before then, I couldn't believe buttering and tapping could possibly produce the geometrical regularity that every brick structure depends upon. But you know what they say..."learn by doing".
But I digress...this discussion has been fascinating and illustrative.
The prototype boiler house I am modeling was built by the CNJ in 1911 next door to the roundhouse built in 1879. From the existing photos I have been able to make out that both used the "Common" or "American" bond because with contrast enhancement and good magnification, I can make out 5 rows of stretchers between rows of headers.
To the best of my ability I'm seeking an historical diorama approach to this compact facility layout and its structures so I'll have to check Walthers or Evergreen or other commerical material but I don't think they offer five over one stretcher/header material.
In any case, I'll have to stew on this a bit to determine how to proceed. It was fascinating to see the availability of individual scale bricks referenced above via an eBay link although fascinating, I don't think I'll go there!!
Anyway, many, many thanks to you all for really illuminating this issue for me!
All the best and stay well, all.
Meanwhile I wonder how many of the brick sheet products actually incorporate structural bonding -- it ought to be easy to adapt TF's 'stampcrete' approach to produce other bonds -- or to allow easy cutting of 'one row' of bricks from a stamped sheet, say one of the ones pictured, to get a header course, and tremie one of these rows in every, say, six rows of a conventional running-bond sheet. This will get you American bond of any degree just by picking the number of running courses, and adjusting the relative height of the mortar lines would be a cinch.
My approach to walls involved wrapping a 'reverse mold' sheet around a roller and approximating the roll use in stampcrete paving; you have to turn the roller diameter precisely so the pattern of the 'mold' sheet will line up correctly -- I never did get to where the 'measured' diameter was quite right. (I also spent considerable time messing with the ridges at the join line, which in hindsight was ridiculously obsessive compared with just tooling the join lines deeper to match!)
I did not think to use clay; I used vinyl high-strength spackling compound backed up by fiberglass mesh and arranged a straightedge to keep the roller lined up, and 'fences' either side of the plaster sheet to roll it out to consistent thickness before 'stamping'. I think TF's material (he's using oven-bake clay with fiber reinforcement, right?) is likely to be easier, and some of the techniques evolved for full-scale stampcrete ought to be applicable for getting pattern repeats over large areas...
Thanks Kevin
I have seen many fine examples of your modeling through the past years. I've always really admired your fine craftsmanship on your custom paint and decaling of your freight cars. Your bench work methods in that one thread of yours dropped my chin to the floor
TF
Track fiddlerTrack fiddler wrote the following post 20 minutes ago: Overmod (NOTE that this is only a matter of verisimilitude: the methods TF describes for making the walls, and the idea behind them, are still valid, and I for one appreciate his willingness to provide them here.) I did appreciate your addition to your post
Track fiddlerOvermod You are always such a treat and that's all I have to say about that
TF: I love your brick roller walls. I have used oven bake clay for all kinds of press-molding but never rolled it out, yours look fantastic.
When we finally see pictures of Overmod's layout, I am sure it will make anything built by Ben King look like an silly attempt at modelling.
In the meantime, I am happy if the finished product looks good from 18 inches away. If anyone ever breaks out a Starrett surface guage to measure the individual courses of my HO scale bricks, they will be escorted out of the house.
I believe I have mentioned there is a reason I rarely invite model railroaders over to see my layout(s).
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Overmod (NOTE that this is only a matter of verisimilitude: the methods TF describes for making the walls, and the idea behind them, are still valid, and I for one appreciate his willingness to provide them here.)
(NOTE that this is only a matter of verisimilitude: the methods TF describes for making the walls, and the idea behind them, are still valid, and I for one appreciate his willingness to provide them here.)
I did appreciate your addition to your post
Thanks for that
Track fiddlerI don't think your wall would hold up for very long with all that condensation moisture, expansion and contraction behind the wall with no tie backs to secure it properly or weep cord for the moisture to escape not to expand the wall out
You must not have been reading the part about reinforcement in the mortar lines, but that's OK. You did point out that any internal reinforcement is invisible in a model, which is the take-home -- I did think that style of wall tie was more common in veneer walls than structural brick, which was the thing I was discussing.
Meanwhile, of course a proper cavity wall will have wicking. Again the visual effect of this in HO scale is vanishingly small (and come to think of it, I don't see it in your samples) so you might want to provide a couple of pictures of proper wicking in different types of construction to guide modelers -- I'm all for verisimilitude in detailing.
Overmod 35 years in construction and you make brick in irregular courses that are all headers? I've only had my contractor's license for 26 years, but I also knew better than that by the time I was out of college...
35 years in construction and you make brick in irregular courses that are all headers? I've only had my contractor's license for 26 years, but I also knew better than that by the time I was out of college...
I don't even know why I'm doing this. I do believe this thread is about examples of simulating brick for modeling. Basically we create cosmetics with the seeing is believing factor. It's a hobby and a very enjoyable one at that, until someone along the way puts it to rocket science
But since you did go to college and you do want to factor in prototypical practices of erecting a brick wall correctly.
You did forget your wall ties
And your weep cord
I don't think your wall would hold up for very long with all that condensation moisture, expansion and contraction behind the wall with no tie backs to secure it properly or weep cord for the moisture to escape not to expand the wall out
For now I'll continue to keep things simple gathering ideas from others and sharing things that I know. It's what makes this forum fun. I think that's how it's suppose to work around here
Track fiddlerWe ain't building a church here
What this suggests is that we look to see if there IS substantial use of fascia brick in roundhouse construction (probably in the last generation of steam structures?)
Overmod
You are always such a treat and that's all I have to say about that
I've been in construction for over 35 years and there is more than one way to do anything and do it right to last and that's all I have to say about that
We ain't building a church here
Track fiddlerI found where I put my stack of stamped bricks. This is what they look like when they are finished. These are about 3" by 5". Between paint, hair dryer and drywall compound, I can make these things super quick. They ain't perfect but what brick wall is?
They ain't perfect but what brick wall is?
First: I encourage everyone who's contemplating this type of work to read up on the actual theory and practice of structural vs. veneer construction. Pay PARTICULAR attention to the various types of bond (which manifest as different patterns of end vs. side dimensions in the visible pattern). The "sideways" bricks act to hold the lengthwise courses together. A wall made entirely with bricks laid sideways will have little resistance to a number of forces. See this introduction to different types of bond (the kind TF is using is 'header bond' when the overlap in successive courses is exactly ½ brick width)
https://gosmartbricks.com/10-most-popular-types-of-brick-bonds/ (there is also a link near the beginning to a discussion of brick type that may be useful to modelers)
I wish I could show the pictures that Kevin was requesting because they show how a real brick wall is laid. You start with a level foundation, whether this involves breaking bricks or using other material to achieve it, and you then establish a 'movable' level reference by putting up 'story poles' (which have a levelable base and calibrations for the reference height of each set course) and then one or more strings (to be pulled to straight tension without real sag) for the reference 'line'.
I lay each course so when knocked in each brick is cross-leveled and its outside top edge is precisely on line -- note that this sets the mortar line by default. Then I butter on the mortar with my cross-trusses or whatever incorporated, and set the next course, buttering the adjacent end or side of each new brick and tapping laterally (with a gauge or spacer if desired) and then down to set. If you tap a bit too much you knock it gently out and add a bit more mortar. This will result in the characteristic 'bond' pattern appearing on the face of the wall.
Periodically you clean up the mortar lines, and rake the joints appropriately for appearance... again, know your styles of rake and the reasons for them.
One reason story poles are used is that they automatically compensate for any slight or trending error the bricklayer may have in any particular course. There have been eras where masons have intentionally built some irregular coursing into the design for "aesthetic" reasons, but they knowingly compensate this to stay within the known strength of the materials as fabricated.
I found where I put my stack of stamped bricks. This is what they look like when they are finished. These are about 3" by 5". Between paint, hair dryer and drywall compound, I can make these things super quick.
They ain't perfect but what brick wall is? I'm sure I could sand the edges straight and put them together on railroad board with a few support splines glued on back, fill the joint with more drywall compound and you wouldn't even be able to tell it's more than one piece put together. I'll have to try that sometime and see.
Sure
With the oven bake clay I actually have a roller machine I can set at different depths to roll the clay out.
I found a spacer tool at Michaels I can impress on either end of the clay for the brick spacing. My old method I took a ruler on the spacing impressions and lightly rolled a pizza cutter along the ruler, then took a jeweler screwdriver and impressed the brick lines.
I found this method somewhat time-consuming, it works but it takes more time.
More recently I made a proof (The top one) and created a negative imprinting the bricks in with a scale lumber end. I spray it lightly with Pam, put a clay sheet over the proof and a layer of wax paper, then roll it with a wallpaper roller. I have gotten more consistent at it than the examples shown here after I found a wider roller.
They look really good after they're painted and the joint compound is put in the joints. If I remember where I put them I will post them later today. I like the clay for retaining walls but I prefer foam for larger projects.
P.S. As far as the meat packing foam backing, I have not made a building yet. I've done some samples and like the results. In N scale I do not think I will need any backing. In HO, one could always glue railroad board to the back of the foam which would make it quite strong. They sell railroad board at the dollar store. Two great big sheets for $1. I always use polyseamseal from Menards for gluing foam. It's the best.
TF --
Thanks for the interesting ideas!
Track fiddler had I took more time with the pizza roller the brick rows would have been more evenly spaced.
had I took more time with the pizza roller the brick rows would have been more evenly spaced.
If you don't mind explaining a little more detail, I assume you carve out the mortar line rows and vertical mortar lines after rolling out a sheet of clay. Is that right? If not, how do you "carve" the bricks?
Also, interesting is the use of the meat pack styrofoam. Do you back the styrofoam with styrene or other backing for structural strength and if so, what adhesive do you use?
Bob Walker's RMC article referenced in this thread showed how he lined up basswood strips using graph paper. He literally glued the wood strips to the graph paper to keep the mortar lines aligned. I wonder if taping graph paper to the styrofoam sheet and burnishing along the printed lines into the foam might be a good way to scribe the lines into the foam, at least to provide guides for the final scribing.
And thanks all for your responses, this has been a kind of how-to article unto itself!
Interesting thread
I have two methods I prefer to model brick as they are quick and easy. One I do with oven bake clay which can be rolled out and baked after the brickwork is finished. The nice thing about this method is it can be curved for a retaining wall while it was still warm out of the oven.
This little experimental example was done in about 10 minutes before baking and then about another 5 minutes to put the colored washes on. I have more recently learned drywall compound smeared in the joints looks great. A little too dark in my color choices and had I took more time with the pizza roller the brick rows would have been more evenly spaced.
The other method I prefer the most is scribing foam. I used to use a ball point pen but the ink bleeds through the drywall compound when I fill the mortar joints. A rounded pencil tip works the best for this technique.
My wife saves me the styrofoam meat pans hamburger, steak and chicken comes in. The styrofoam pans are only about 1/8 to 3/16" thick and will work great for making buildings out of. I plan on making a brick roundhouse this way in the near future.
doctorwayneWell-rendered brick paper can look very convincing,
I built a couple of small HO structures using brick paper for the 4th SGRR layout.
They looked 100% amazing in photographs, but not quite as convincing in real life.
cnjman721Again, sorry if I've wasted your time
This was not a waste of time.
cnjman721OK guys, I have an apology to make... Had I turned more pages in the RMC archive, I would have come to answer the question I posed at the start of this thread and saved you all a lot of time and kindness in your thoughtful and well-illustrated replies!
No problem! This is an interesting thread with lots of great ideas for future reference.
FWIW, if you want actual HO scale individual bricks, they are available on eBay. I can't see building a wall with them, but they would be great for a brick pile in a construction scene:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/100-Extremely-Tiny-Miniature-Bricks-HO-N-scale-Red-railway-model-wargame-diorama/161304880942?hash=item258e85272e:g:wbwAAOSw2CFdnk7y
Wayne et al --
OK guys, I have an apology to make... Had I turned more pages in the RMC archive, I would have come to answer the question I posed at the start of this thread and saved you all a lot of time and kindness in your thoughtful and well-illustrated replies!
It turns out that Bob Walker (Master Scratchbuilder) DID write about and illustrate his technique for building scale brick walls brick-by-brick. HOWEVER...
1) It wasn't really brickwork at all, but rather he modeled STONE WALLS not brick and
2) It wasn't brick-by-brick, it was row of bricks carved from basswood strips and laid tightly row by row then vertical gaps/mortar lines carved into the wood.
The article appeared on page 84 of the June 2015 RMC.
He used the basswood "wall", male to cast an RTV mold and then create the wall with plaster. Here's a link: https://www.qgdigitalpublishing.com/publication/?m=59407&i=612287&p=84&pp=1
Fascinating detailed technique with impressive results ( https://www.qgdigitalpublishing.com/publication/?m=59407&i=612287&p=88&pp=1 ) but I think I'll go for DPM wall panels!
Again, sorry if I've wasted your time when I should have kept turning pages in the RMC archive to get the answer!
All the best,
cnjman721...I found a company -- EvanDesigns -- that allows you to select brick styles and colors and print your own sheets (they suggest using matte photo paper). Still, I'd like to do weathering so it would seem a bit trickier to weather paper as opposed to styrene but not having ever before used brick sheet, I can't say....
Well-rendered brick paper can look very convincing, but weathering is easier to do convincingly when the surface is three dimensional, allowing "dirt" to collect in the horizontal mortar lines, but not so much on the face of the bricks.
It occurred to me that you could use the DPM wall panels to create larger panels, both taller and wider, if necessary, simply by buying panels of the same type, then cutting them to remove the blank recessed ends and/or the top or bottom details to leave plain pieces with brick detail only.
To make them wider, cut the vertical edges that are to be mated so that the vertical mortar lines between full bricks can be preserved on one portion (or split between the two faces to be joined) and the half bricks along the cuts will re-assemble as full ones.
To disguise the joints, coat both mating surfaces generously with solvent cement - two or three applications are preferrable to one heavy one - then, working on a smooth and impervious surface (glass is a good choice) bring the two edges together very firmly. The softened plastic will ooze out, so simply set it aside until it fully hardens. Once it does, use a chisel-type blade (bevelled-edge against the brick detail) to remove the oozed-out stuff, then the back edge of a #11 blade to clean-up any mortar lines requiring such attention.
Theoretically, you could create a panel of almost any width, but if it gets too wide, it might be wise to back it with .060" sheet styrene or at least some good-size styrene strip, which will help to prevent the wall from taking-on an unwanted curve.
I used a somewhat similar (also simpler) technique to utilise most of the front and rear walls of this kit...
...to create a longer structure, using .060" sheet styrene for the unseen back wall (and the sub-roof, interior partitions and floors).It required trimming the two ends to be mated so that the window spacing matched that of the rest of the structure, then revising the mortar joints so that the stonework looked similar to that of the rest, too.The revised joint is somewhere within the 10th vertical panel from either end...
Doing it with the DPM brick will be a little more involved, but certainly easier than brick-by-brick, even if you need only to make a pattern for a brick mould.
Here's the finished version...
The more I think about this, the more I think a 'master scratchbuilder' would duplicate a number of individual 'scale brick sides', each a little scale model of the surface texture and imperfections of particular bricks in a particular style, then cement these to an appropriate face sheet perhaps with strips and spacers on a wheel to adjust them into register. He would then make RTV sheet molds of these sections and carefully tile castings made from these molds into the large wall areas.
If I were doing this I'd make the several castings with epoxy tinted to give a varied base color, to minimize the detail painting and then weathering on the brick faces. Doing this would involve not modeling the mortar lines along with the brick, but instead leaving relatively deep recesses between the bricks, into which 'mortar' would be laid with a syringe or similar tool, and then tooled to strike/rake the visible mortar lines to the style desired, this simplifying the methods used to join the individual sections. As with floor tiling, with enough subsection patterns it's likely there would not be visible pattern repeat in the brickwork... which might be a thing to watch for.
You could of course use the 'typical' way to get mortar into the wall, by wiping paint across and then carefully cleaning or even sanding the protruding bricks. The issue here is that steps to detail the brick faces, including painting or stippling them, would have to account for the mortar lines (or survive the wiping process).
Thinking back to Brian's stone-viaduct project, it might be fun to take a properly 'anamorphically-corrected' photographic image of a brick wall, and print it on something like decal paper at scale corresponding to a 3D brick sheet. (Or use the white glue on heavily-sanded paper used for signs on brick...) Then you get the advantage of photorealistic color combined with the 3D surface texture in oblique lighting...