I think everyone here probably agrees that the hobby has room for those who love to watch a train go in a circle, to those who like to watch trains go in loops but also like operations, to those who have a switching point-to-point layout that they use every six months, to those who build cars but don't have a layout.
York1 John
Brakie,
Just wanted to give a big "thanks" for the SBD Howell Yard video. Being from Evansville it made for a good hike down memory lane.
Ralph
Ray, Its not a discussion about the owner's layout as much as it is operation.
During the week of running trains during the county fair I was bored after the first few loops while other members seem to enjoy loop running. When a member came in and wanted to run his train I would park mine in a siding until the next morning. I would then do what I enjoy the most shoot the breeze with other members or read MR or Trains magazine.
I'm the happiest when I am running a local or working a yard..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
MARTIN STATION Brakie, Just wanted to give a big "thanks" for the SBD Howell Yard video. Being from Evansville it made for a good hike down memory lane. Ralph
Ralph, You are welcome.. That's one of my favorite you tube switching videos..
When I was station at Ft. Knox in 74 I always wanted to railfan there but,never got around doing it. I spent more Saturdays railfaning and visiting hobby shops in Louisville.
Uphill slow and downhill fast,Tonnage first and safety last.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Personally, I just enjoy messing around with model trains on a layout. Building models, building layouts, running trains, switching cars. It's all fun. I start running trains back and forth as soon as I have some track laid.
Paul
Me, too, which is why it's hard to get into the scenery phase of building.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
IRONROOSTER Personally, I just enjoy messing around with model trains on a layout. Building models, building layouts, running trains, switching cars. It's all fun. I start running trains back and forth as soon as I have some track laid. Paul
I also noticed a definite drop-off in scenery work after driving the golden spike. And it was easy to justify the diversion: I had to test and retest the track work, and then test it some more to make sure; I had to tune and align the turnouts; I had to design, setup, and calibrate the signal system and work out the logic and electronics; I had to pull an entire roster of engines and rolling stock out of deep-storage retirement; and I had to continue trudging into the salt mines every day to get coin of the realm to pay for this stuff (and groceries and whatnot). Golden Spikes are two-edged swords.
Nevertheless, I am still making headway and still having a lot of fun. Highly recommended.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
It seems we have too many people here worry way too much on how they enjoy the hobby. My god just build your layout, run your trains, build your scenery, anything just do something. This hobby is supposed to be fun but too many of you guys make it hard. I enjoy many facets of the hobby and there are some that I dont. Guess what I don't do them. I focus on what I like and that is to have fun.
Dave
DAVID FORTNEYtoo many people here worry way too much on how they enjoy the hobby. My god just build your layout, run your trains,
-Kevin
Living the dream.
DAVID FORTNEY It seems we have too many people here worry way too much on how they enjoy the hobby. My god just build your layout, run your trains, build your scenery, anything just do something. This hobby is supposed to be fun but too many of you guys make it hard. I enjoy many facets of the hobby and there are some that I dont. Guess what I don't do them. I focus on what I like and that is to have fun. Dave
Getting back to the OP, I think the point is that pundits like Koester and his circles worry way too much about how they run their trains, not us, but apparently think its an issue in the broader hobby, or else the article would not have been written. And I usually like what Koester writes. This one just seems off the mark to me.
I always thought that people who took their train running pretty seriously (the only way) were the vast minority of dollar spending members. I would think that the audience for that article would be pretty small.
I remember a few years ago he wrote an article where he contemplated moving up the era of his NKP layout, partly, because he simply liked the sound of turbocharged diesels running over the layout. It indicated to me that he has always enjoyed running trains simply for the fun of it, and maybe different trains that don't "belong" on the layout. I was hoping to follow the layout's migration but maybe he never got far into that thinking.
- Douglas
rrinker Well, the subject of the article was a feeling of regret a friend of Tony's had for not running trains on his layout more before he dismantled it and moved - he was a heavy duty operator like Tony and others. And Tony was quoting Allen McClelland whose response to running trains between operating sessions was "why would you?" ..... I think by the end of his musing, Tony was starting to come around to the idea that you can do both - entertain serious prototypical operations, AND just run trains on the layout. --Randy
Well, the subject of the article was a feeling of regret a friend of Tony's had for not running trains on his layout more before he dismantled it and moved - he was a heavy duty operator like Tony and others. And Tony was quoting Allen McClelland whose response to running trains between operating sessions was "why would you?" ..... I think by the end of his musing, Tony was starting to come around to the idea that you can do both - entertain serious prototypical operations, AND just run trains on the layout. --Randy
I agree, and note that Tony doesn't write that he was necessarily against casual running, but that, for whatever reason, his non-ops layout activity was preparing for the next session... and between re-staging and routine maintenance, there is no doubt that this is a very time-hungry task.
Recalling Tony's current and former track plans, they're very operations oriented designs. So obviously, labor saving features such as loads-in emptys-out, and run-through staging gave way to his priorities. As we all do considering our "givens & druthers".
Jim
People can overthink anything.
Bayfield Transfer Railway People can overthink anything.
And that's how those some day "dream" layouts never get built. A simple frown upon 4x8' layout can provide hours of train running and scenery work.
A well planned switching layout can provide switching enjoyment as well as minute detailing like fences with barbed wire,security cameras, storage tank containment berms etc.
I couldn´t have said it better. It´s one of those futile discussions, that lead nowhere, but show us the multitude of individual ways to enjoy our hobby.
But that we already knew before this thread was opened.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
Tinplate ToddlerI couldn´t have said it better. It´s one of those futile discussions, that lead nowhere, but shows us the multitude of individual ways to enjoy our hobby.
One thing I have noticed on you tube..There's a lot of layouts built for operation and there's as many for plain old train running.
Another thing I've noticed on you tube is the growth of highly detailed industrial switching layouts.
Perhaps MR should do a special issue on designing ISLs?
LastspikemikeStatic displays are of an entirely different nature to model railroading, with their own entirely legitimate character.
Indeed.. I once saw a static display at a train show that had a station with several people, a baggage cart with luggage,a freight house with team track with a boxcar of lumber being unloaded, taxi cabs,a road crossing and other scenery. IIRC there was a water tank 3 or 4 passengercar lenghts from the station.
The display was called "Waiting for the train".
The reason I recall this is because that was back in 83/84 and the modeling quality was beyond anything I've seen.
DAVID FORTNEYIt seems we have too many people here worry way too much on how they enjoy the hobby.
No, we have too many people here who worry way too much on how other people enjoy the hobby.
What happens in my basement stays in my basement.
maxman DAVID FORTNEY It seems we have too many people here worry way too much on how they enjoy the hobby. No, we have too many people here who worry way too much on how other people enjoy the hobby. What happens in my basement stays in my basement.
DAVID FORTNEY It seems we have too many people here worry way too much on how they enjoy the hobby.
maxmanNo, we have too many people here who worry way too much on how other people enjoy the hobby.
Actually I don't care if a modeler runs his trains at Mach 5 or even light speed while running loops on a four by eighter as long as they are enjoying the hobby.
OTOH don't drop by and expect to move cars around willy nilly on my ISL.. I will hand you my Tech 6 throttle and a switch list and watch you work the industries.
I think the big point here, that many people on both sides of this are missing is that there is no reason you can't do both.
"Messing up" the opps session staging is an excuse, and as my examples above show, it is easy enough to design a layout to do both.
Tony's piece is about the possible regret of not choosing both. A reget his friend had, and one he may be experiancing as well.
As far back as I can remember, I have considered both operational approaches important to the hobby.
Sheldon
maxmanWhat happens in my basement stays in my basement
I don't have a basement.
SeeYou190 maxman What happens in my basement stays in my basement I don't have a basement. -Kevin
maxman What happens in my basement stays in my basement
Actually I never cared for creepy basements. I prefer a nice spare bedroom where I can let the early morning sunlight in by opening a blind..
Sheldon,And what some people seem to be missing is that there are folks that don't like to run trains just for the heck of it.Two days ago I went to my club and met a fellow member (we were the only two there). I worked on an engine of mine by replacing the broken gears in a P2K FB-1. I put it on my 21' long TOFC train with the other units for an A-B-B-A set and ran around our large layout at 50% throttle. I wasn't bored going around the first time because I was monitoring the fixed B-unit and making sure all mainline switches were set right, and that I had no derailments, etc.As I neared making a full loop, the other guy started to run his Amtrak train around the layout. Thinking he might like some company on the mainline, I continued on to make a 2nd loop. Not even halfway through, I started thinking how boring this was. To increase my interest, I throttled up to 100%...and it was still boring but at least the boredom was going to end sooner.I realize that some folks won't do operations, and that some find just running trains to be calming or even fun. But why is it that some folks get offended because I find that boring?
Paul3I realize that some folks won't do operations, and that some find just running trains to be calming or even fun. But why is it that some folks get offended because I find that boring?
I'm going to try to answer this without offending you or making it sound like criticism. Please don't take this as a criticism:
Your original post was taken by many here, including me, as a criticism of watching trains run.
I know. You meant it was boring to you. But that's not how it sounded.
Paul3Running trains without operation sessions is boring. It is so incredibly dull. There's no challenge, there's no reason, there's nothing to do but stare at the moving train. It's no different from sitting on your front porch to watch the cars go by...only it's the same car, over and over and over again. What's the fun in that? You might as well play Monopoly solo.
When you write something worded like that, you are sure to step on the toes of those who don't find it boring, and who don't think it's dull.
Paul3 But why is it that some folks get offended because I find that boring?
Paul, I have asked that question every time a discussion comes up on operation. I never did like mindless loop running and would never gainsay those that do. OTOH there are those that thinks switching is boring.
I suspect there are those that doesn't fully understand operation can be simple or very complicated. I suspect some would think I was going to far with my operations following basic operation and safety rules as well as allowing time for the switchman to do his work.. There is none of that jumping ahead and lining a switch and a full stop must be made after each coupling-gotta release the hand brake.
That age old copout "Its my layout" has nothing to do with a discussion of operation.. Nobody is forcing anybody to operate their layout in a prototyical manner.
Paul3 Sheldon,And what some people seem to be missing is that there are folks that don't like to run trains just for the heck of it.Two days ago I went to my club and met a fellow member (we were the only two there). I worked on an engine of mine by replacing the broken gears in a P2K FB-1. I put it on my 21' long TOFC train with the other units for an A-B-B-A set and ran around our large layout at 50% throttle. I wasn't bored going around the first time because I was monitoring the fixed B-unit and making sure all mainline switches were set right, and that I had no derailments, etc.As I neared making a full loop, the other guy started to run his Amtrak train around the layout. Thinking he might like some company on the mainline, I continued on to make a 2nd loop. Not even halfway through, I started thinking how boring this was. To increase my interest, I throttled up to 100%...and it was still boring but at least the boredom was going to end sooner.I realize that some folks won't do operations, and that some find just running trains to be calming or even fun. But why is it that some folks get offended because I find that boring?
Paul, you still don't get it. It's fine that you don't like casual running. I am talking about Tony's comments about the guy who seldom ran trains on his own layout, and then had some regret when he decided to take the layout down.
Here is what is really different between me and you. When I run trains casually, I can just "turn then on" and let them run. By simply throwing a few turnouts and pushing a few buttons, I can turn my double track thru staging layout into four dedicated loops, each still long enough to be interesting, and then I can "railfan". I don't need to be at the throttle every minute, and all four trains can just "run". A coupe of "kill buttons" are handy if need arises.
I can let those trains run while I work the yard, or the two industrial areas which do not require access to the mainline.
I can randomly "grab" one of those mainline trains, park it in staging and replace it with another train.
OR, I can host operations for a crew of 5-12 people.
So when non railroaders want to see the trains, it is a big Christmas Garden, with five trains of mainline action.
For railroad types, it is CTC and signals, a dispatcher, yardmaster, 2-3 local crews, four mainline crews, and a branchline crew on the WESTERN MARYLAND connection, with staging for a total of 30 trains.
And when I'm by myself it can be either/or.
I like to see trains run, I find "being the engineer" only mildly interesting, even during an opps session.
There are no lives at stake, I can just turn them on and watch them run, while I do other stuff.
But I am not going to look back 10 years from now and say "maybe I should have run the trains a little more?". And I am not going to say, "I'm too old, I need to take this down and sell it all". When I die, the kids can do whatever they want with it......... But until then, I'm going to have fun building it, and I'm going to "play" with it.
I recently ran my two new Rapido FP7s and 13 Rapido coaches while I was working on the layout. I would stop working and just sit and watch them periodically and then pick up where I left off. It was a good day in the train room. That train ran for at least three hours without a hiccup, no derailments, no uncouplings. I got a great deal of satisfaction out of that. Just how many hours can you get out of a locomotive anyway?
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
BATMANJust how many hours can you get out of a locomotive anyway
My Athearn BB locomotives average 5 hours of loop running every day during the county fair.
Some membrs ran their BB engines from 9 am to 12:00 am all 6 days of the fair..
I like to sit and run trains because I find it relaxes me. I like the modeling end of things and I find the challenge in MRR for me is to get things to look as real as possible.
I use to chase my friends around in real airplanes through the mountains North of Vancouver, yet as good a microsoft flight simulator is, I get bored easily doing that, the threat of me falling off my chair just doesn't cut it and even though I was in a real airplane playing fighter pilot, I was not getting shot at.
I worked in logistics for 36 years and that was at times a real adrenaline rush. So I gotta ask this question, what is it you like about switching cars on a model train layout? There are no consequences if you screw up, not like in the real world. If you run trains and have a derailment, no consequences.
I love the hobby of model railroading, it fits the bill as an escape from reality and is relaxing. The whole hobby is boring to most of the population of the planet, so for us to sit here and tell one another that what they like to do as far as the hobby goes is less boring than what someone else likes to do is just not on. John (York) has a point when he says it's not what you say, it is how you say it. We should not feel obligated to have to defend our preferences of the hobby, anymore than we should have to defend our like of the hobby itself.