Brakie,
Just wanted to give a big "thanks" for the SBD Howell Yard video. Being from Evansville it made for a good hike down memory lane.
Ralph
I think everyone here probably agrees that the hobby has room for those who love to watch a train go in a circle, to those who like to watch trains go in loops but also like operations, to those who have a switching point-to-point layout that they use every six months, to those who build cars but don't have a layout.
York1 John
So, after reading most of these posts I'm beginning to wonder; "Is it my railroad or isn't it?"
Ray
I have run my layout with operators 3 times prior to the pandemic. There have been no operations with others since. I do however make an effort to run the layout for 15 minutes twice a day. My feeling is why would I have built it and not run it. Those 3 sessions on my Industrail Switching Layout have taught me the importance of knowing where all 34 cars are to be moved. My ISL to me is small, 84' of main with a large 26 spot Paper Mill being the main attraction but also with a 4 spot transload, 6 spot recycling center, 4spot cold storage warehouse and a 12 spot Ethanol facility with a 8 spot ethanol load out center. So, Ihave learned to have my daily enjoyment and when I have a session planned to restage everything. About an 1 hour job. But, you know what? I don't care that some folks don't run their layouts in between sessions, that is their choice and part of their enjoyment.
TomO
Lastspikemike Well, my love of trains dates back to my childhood when the sheer power of the most powerful mobile machines we had so far built went straight into my brain like a powerful vaccine. Vivid memories of a passenger station (in the UK where the big steam locomotives were still allowed to come indoors out of the rain) with a Southern Railways Gresley A4 streamline sat at the buffers breathing in and out like a huge draught animal at the head of a rake of colourful passenger cars, or a string of empty goods wagons banging to a halt below me on the railway bridge over our local freight yard and so on. Coming to Canada and experiencing REALLY big motive power, all diesel by then. You could still stand pretty close to one of those gigantic freights in those days and see and feel the ground move as the enormous weight went by. Thats why I run model trains.
Well, my love of trains dates back to my childhood when the sheer power of the most powerful mobile machines we had so far built went straight into my brain like a powerful vaccine. Vivid memories of a passenger station (in the UK where the big steam locomotives were still allowed to come indoors out of the rain) with a Southern Railways Gresley A4 streamline sat at the buffers breathing in and out like a huge draught animal at the head of a rake of colourful passenger cars, or a string of empty goods wagons banging to a halt below me on the railway bridge over our local freight yard and so on. Coming to Canada and experiencing REALLY big motive power, all diesel by then. You could still stand pretty close to one of those gigantic freights in those days and see and feel the ground move as the enormous weight went by.
Thats why I run model trains.
Nice post LastspikeMike
BRAKIE davidmurray I have on doubt that on any protosized railroad cars get lost, but there is someway of finding them, in any era. Don't bet the farm.. On the PRR in '67 there was a 40' boxcar of color TVs that went missing. Around two years later the boxcar was found in the scrap line with the number lined out and still loaded with those color TVs. These cars was going to be pulled and taken to a scrap yard.. A carman that was inspecting the cars and connecting air hoses before the move just happen to notice the car had door seals..
davidmurray I have on doubt that on any protosized railroad cars get lost, but there is someway of finding them, in any era.
Don't bet the farm.. On the PRR in '67 there was a 40' boxcar of color TVs that went missing. Around two years later the boxcar was found in the scrap line with the number lined out and still loaded with those color TVs.
These cars was going to be pulled and taken to a scrap yard.. A carman that was inspecting the cars and connecting air hoses before the move just happen to notice the car had door seals..
Well how about that, my ex father in law was trying to score some TV sets (j/k). That was about when he hired on as yard clerk in Coatesville.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
So, as an example of how casual running can blend with opps sessions, on my planned layout there will be nearly 30 staged mainline trains. If you pull one of those trains out onto the mainline and run it around a while, then return it to its "spot", with the same cars it left with, any setup for an opps session remains undisturbed.
I think a great many opps schemes are too focused on switching cars without modeling the other aspects of prototype operation.
My track plan tries to balance mainline and yard/industry opps and include power swaps, run thru bridge traffic, etc. Not just the local serving the industries along the mainline.
In urban areas few industries are along the mainline, most are served directly from yards via industrial belt lines.
That is how I have set up my layout. So moving a mainline train and returning it to its "spot" does not effect a future opps session.
Sheldon
Guy, that is a very thoughtful and well laid out reply to this thread.
Within the model railroading community, there are various segments represented included those who are dedicated to hosting ops sessions, those who merely like to run trains, even those who get the most satisfaction out of building and scenicing the layout without spending all that much time running trains or conducting ops.
There obviously are some who find model railroading boring if the method of operating the layout does not conform to their way of operating a layout. That is all well and good to feel that way. But, I see no need to condemn those segments of the model railroading community that do not conform to another's way of thinking in this regard.
Rich
Alton Junction
Randy,
I am in an operating group that has been together nearly 20 years. We use TT & TO operating style with a dispatcher. It is like a complex chess game with trains. I enjoy it quite a bit. TT & TO is just one of many styles of operations, no one in the group looks down on other approaches and in fact most of the group operate on layouts outside of our circle that have lots of other operating styles.
One of the reasons I built my layout to have this group over to operate. We operate on about three layouts that are owned and built by various members in the group ranging from narrow gauge railroads to mainline operations. We meet once a month at one of the layouts to operate. This group has become good friends and we all like to get together and hang out once a month or more often depending.
To me operations adds another dimension to the hobby by allowing me to share my modeling with others who can appreciate it and I like going to operate on the other layouts for the same reason. We can get fairly serious but no one is over the top about things – nothing other than good natured ribbing when something gets messed up. I have a great time at sessions on my layout and I rarely run a train during them. Seeing the layout come to life with others running trains is pretty cool.
IMHO: This idea that modelers fit only into one category is a bit inaccurate. Most everyone in the group likes to operate and at the same time in our group there are lots of outstanding modelers who are constantly building things. Some don’t run their layouts that often even if they don’t host operating sessions because they are busy building models. It really is all over the map. I have a narrow gauge friend who also loves cab forwards – who woulda thunk??? Of course a finely nuanced reality doesn’t make for good discussion so people tend to exaggerate the differences to create more contrast and a dramatic story (or article).
As for the guy who only operates his layout once a month he is still probably pretty busy running at other layouts, restaging trains, building new cars, decodering engines and fixing things that break (believe me there are things to fix after a session – not because operators are reckless but because the layout is complex with lots parts to keep in operating spec.). There are lots of other tasks that go into hosting a session to keep oneself busy.
One issue with running trains for fun on an OPs layout is that you will have to restage things when you are done for the next session. Some of that has to happen anyway in the normal course of hosting sessions but when you move things around between sessions there is a lot more staging to do to get ready for the next session. I can see why some layout owners might avoid or limit this activity to save time later.
My own layout has a point to point track plan that also has provisions for two around the room loops for visitors and layout tours. I also build lots of models and scenery. To me operations are just another aspect of the hobby that I enjoy. I think you can do lots of different things in the hobby and still find enjoyment in them all.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
davidmurray Bayfield Transfer Railway And when it does, the conductor gets out a pencil and makes corrections on the switchlist as needed. Gosh! What a concept Michael: I was trying to imply that in the model world, that second siding could be on the pther side of the layout, because someone missed it last time. Or did some free time running and moved that car. I have on doubt that on any protosized railroad cars get lost, but there is someway of finding them, in any era.
Bayfield Transfer Railway And when it does, the conductor gets out a pencil and makes corrections on the switchlist as needed. Gosh! What a concept
Michael: I was trying to imply that in the model world, that second siding could be on the pther side of the layout, because someone missed it last time. Or did some free time running and moved that car.
I have on doubt that on any protosized railroad cars get lost, but there is someway of finding them, in any era.
It happens a lot, actually. A train completes its entire run and never finds the car it's supposed to pick up. And the conductor writes "car not at this location". Or finds a different car. Or whatever.
A switchlist is a working document, corrected as needed.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
My dad tells me that his dad once spent a good period of time trying to track down a missing automobile boxcar back in the '40s. Car was bad ordered and seemingly vanished, automobiles and all.
davidmurray The PC lost a mechanical reefer of shrimp in the Airline Junction yard, a friend of mine who worked for the PC found it after it had run out of fuel and sat in the hot sun for few days. He said it was the smell that led him to the missing car. Rick Jesionowski Bayfield Transfer Railway And when it does, the conductor gets out a pencil and makes corrections on the switchlist as needed. Gosh! What a concept Michael: I was trying to imply that in the model world, that second siding could be on the pther side of the layout, because someone missed it last time. Or did some free time running and moved that car. I have on doubt that on any protosized railroad cars get lost, but there is someway of finding them, in any era.
The PC lost a mechanical reefer of shrimp in the Airline Junction yard, a friend of mine who worked for the PC found it after it had run out of fuel and sat in the hot sun for few days. He said it was the smell that led him to the missing car.
Rick Jesionowski
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
davidmurray My objections to switch lists is that mostly they are computer generated, and assume that every thing is completed as listed. It is hard to pick up Car CN435643 at siding #19, if someone moved it to siding #72 without telling the computer. Car cards as long as they are with the car is self correcting. If I become perfect, then I will expect my operators to do likewise.
My objections to switch lists is that mostly they are computer generated, and assume that every thing is completed as listed.
It is hard to pick up Car CN435643 at siding #19, if someone moved it to siding #72 without telling the computer.
Car cards as long as they are with the car is self correcting.
If I become perfect, then I will expect my operators to do likewise.
Where does that assumption come from? Not one modeler I know who uses, or used, switch lists used a computer.
One local club, now defunct, tried one of those computer programs, it was useless.
It is not that hard, or time consuming, to just develope some simple records about your equipment and industries, and write some switch lists for an opps session?
davidmurrayI have on doubt that on any protosized railroad cars get lost, but there is someway of finding them, in any era.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Bayfield Transfer RailwayAnd when it does, the conductor gets out a pencil and makes corrections on the switchlist as needed. Gosh! What a concept
davidmurray My objections to switch lists is that mostly they are computer generated, and assume that every thing is completed as listed. It is hard to pick up Car CN435643 at siding #19, if someone moved it to siding #72 without telling the computer.
Ever look at actual prototype computer generated switchlists? Because that sort of thing happens in the real world, too.And when it does, the conductor gets out a pencil and makes corrections on the switchlist as needed. Gosh! What a concept!
Well, the subject of the article was a feeling of regret a friend of Tony's had for not running trains on his layout more before he dismantled it and moved - he was a heavy duty operator like Tony and others. And Tony was quoting Allen McClelland whose response to running trains between operating sessions was "why would you?"
My point here is simply that the two are not mutually exclusive. You can be a serious operator when it's time for an operating session, and still have fun running trains other times. Especially those who generally only act as host and never touch a throttle once they get past the initial test running phase. The guy who has weekly op sessions - hopefully some of the regualrs can take over jobs like dispatcher that the host typically does so the host gets a turn at the throttle.
I'm happy to share what I build, how I built it, etc. But in the end, I'm building a layout for me, not for a few people who might show up every month to run trains. It's why I'm not particularly suited for a standard type of club. The historical society modular group is a bit different - mainly because there is no discussion over what railroad will be represented - it's the one I want to model anyway, because it's the layout of the historical society for the railroad I want to model.
I think by the end of his musing, Tony was starting to come around to the idea that you can do both - entertain serious prototypical operations, AND just run trains on the layout.
A few thoughts:
Paul, if you could break down my post stats by year, you would see a marked decline in the last four years.......
I like just watching model trains run, it does not matter who is at the throttle, me or someone else. I am more of a railfan with model trains than real trains......being the engineer is ok, but it is not my primary "fun" activity in this hobby. Maybe that says a lot about why I still run DC.........
As much as I do like opps, I like them streamlined and simplified. Just like my simplified signaling and CTC.
As most of you know, I run DC. The new layout, a double track, twice around the room with the second loop around being the hidden thru staging, has cutoff tracks that turn it into four dedicated loops where trains can mindlessly run.
Detection indicated on several panels makes it easy to keep an eye on them.
A fifth single track loop, thru part of the layout, will represent a stretch of the WESTERN MARYLAND and will also have its own hidden thru staging. It also connects with the rest of the layout, but in display mode, yes, it just goes around and around until you stop it in staging and replace it with another train, likely moving in the other direction.
In opps or display mode, it is about putting on a show, and having the players appear on stage, and then exit the stage.
I have mentioned this same wargaming comparrison in here before... but here we go again (sorry).
In wargaming, 99% of the people are there to have fun. Then you have the "elite" 1% who are there to be serious, and be taken seriously. They play a game called Seakrieg.
They look down at the rest of us drinking beer and rolling dice while we move metal (or plastic) toy soldiers around on a table top laughing and having a good old time.
They sit in the Seakrieg room for two days measuring everything with micrometer accuracy, consulting four (or more) charts for every shot fired, and being stuffy and snobbish.
We don't care... they think we are idiots, we think they are morons, but we all gather together at conventions and enjoy wargaming.
I don't care if the 1% of model railroaders that are serious operators think that I am just a big man-child playing with electric trains any more than I worry about what the Seakrieg guys think of my scratchbuilt "Ork Thunda-Bomma".
Everybody should just do what they enjoy, and never do something that you do not.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Guys, Here's a video of a Seaboard System crew switching cars at Howell yard. Note the switch list in the brakeman's hand. A switchlist could be folded and placed in a pocket while riding a side of a car. Also note the crew is switching with a caboose. I suspect the gent sitting on the ground throw would be the conductor watching for safety and operating rules to be broken as well as overseeing the work. He has a switch list too.
Rich,Randy started this thread to question those that only run their layouts once a month during an operation session. He then asked, "Why not?" and saying those that only run once a month will have regrets later in life.I answered him by saying that running without operations is boring.Now you're coming at me by saying I've "insulted" people? Implying I'm a "snob" in the very next sentence? Who's really insulting whom, here? I never said you or anyone else was boring, just that I find it boring.Yes, I said I found running trains without operations is boring. Are you telling me I don't find it boring? What, am I lying? Is there anything else you'd like to tell me that I should feel? And excuse me while I laugh about the lone-wolfers being "pariahs" of any sort. If anything, it's the other way around (see this thread!). There's far more anti-rivet counters than actual rivet counters in this hobby, and insulting and belittling what highly skilled model railroaders do is a popular past time on this and many other online forums. Just bring up the NMRA MMR program and watch the flames erupt. You just called non-lone-wolfers "snobs", for pete's sake.There's nothing wrong with being a lone wolf operator that doesn't do a formal operations. You want to run trains all by yourself with only your imagination as your guide, great! Wonderful! A toast to you, indeed. But I still find it boring and I refuse to do more than the bare minimum. You can't force me to enjoy something I find boring any more than I can force you to enjoy a formal operation with a dozen other operators.And yes, Rich, at our club the local freight engineers do have to read their paperwork and follow the rules. We do try to model that kind of realism. I'm sorry you apparently find that boring. Oh, wait, did you just insult all model railroad operators that use car cards and waybills by calling it boring? Sheldon,C'mon, man. If we all had a "sufficient imagination", we wouldn't have to build a model railroad at all. We'd all just lay back in our easy chairs, close our eyes and just imagine running trains. We'd all be the ultimate armchair model railroader.I don't enjoy club politics. Not many do. But by putting up with them, I have made so many friends I wouldn't trade it for the world. I don't know if you can put a value on close friendships, nor the dozens of the friends I've made through my club, but I can tell you it's worth my $33 per month.You made me chuckle with your "I'm too busy" statement. I've been here seven years longer than you have and yet you have almost 4 times the number of posts than me. You're averaging over two posts every day for the last 11.5 years. By contrast, I'm averaging less than 1/4 of that.BTW, I'm sure I'd enjoy operating your layout, Sheldon. You actually have an operational structure and rules to follow.Randy,Yes, I find "just running a train around" boring. As I said, I can go around once and then I'm done. This is not a recent attitude. My dad is a model railroader and I grew up with trains in my basement. When I was 15 I learned about operation sessions and that you can do more than just run in circles. That was 30 years ago.I can't imagine operating a local freight without some kind of structure and rules. It doesn't have to be car cards, as I said. It could be as simple as rolling two dice with the first being the number of cars from the head end and the second being the siding number it goes to. I don't care how, as long as something is there and not, "Ooh, I think I will put that car over there because it'll look cool." This also applies to operators who park their caboose three towns away instead of taking it with them because, "It's in the way!"There are some guys at my club that will run the same train around our club layout for 6 hours straight during an open house. I don't know how they do it. I occasionally run during open houses, and after 3 or 4 loops I am bored out of my skull. But those guys that do it, they enjoy it. I don't understand it, but I'm glad they do as it keeps folks entertained.Overmod,The only disparagement here is when those that only run formal operations are called "snobs."BTW, I do find it somewhat hilarious here that those that would probably be quick to point out to any rivet counter that "it's their railroad and that they can do what they want" and "My railroad, my rules," are so quick to try and shame those that only operate formally. If the layout owner only wants to operate formally once a month with his friends, who is any one to say a thing against that? Unless "My railroad, my rules" only applies to some and not all.
I love model railroading and trains but I never liked ops, it was like watching grass grow. I have built many layouts from small to very large and right now it is small 5x10 but each and everyone was built for me to run trains. No ops, not for anybody's thoughts on how it should be built but for me.
Hey, if you like ops, go for it, have fun. Nobody has the right to tell anybody else how to enjoy their trains, I like running trains thru nice scenery. How about you?
Dave
Girls, girls! You're ALL pretty!
Having now be able to take the time to read the article, I feel a little sad for everyone Tony mentioned, and for him.
First, I don't ever see myself getting out of the hobby because I am getting old.
Second, some of my grown kids live nearby, some live 1,000 miles away. I'm not planning my life around them, nor should they plan there lives around me.
And the notion that a model railroad would not be operated "casually", or just for fun in addition to whatever planned prototypical operating sessions are desired just seems bizarre to me.
I have always considered both types of operation necessary and important - for me. And there are plenty of ways to set up operating sessions and still allow casual running without one disrupting the other.
I hope Tony reads this thread, I may still have his Email address.....
I almost headed down that "too serious" road many decades ago in this hobby. Too much rivet counting, too much perfectionism, but I realized I was having less fun......
I haven't read the article in question, but just an observation from the comments posted here about its content:
It funny to me how Lance Mindheim can get beat up over an article about what looks real and what doesn't....in a general sense...and Tony Koester writes a snobbish column about having to defend the idea of simply running trains, and seems to get a pass.
Who exactly is he writing the article for? A small circle of hobbyists taking themselves a bit too seriously maybe?
Lighten up, Francis.
- Douglas
People start jogging for fitness, run/walk a 5k and eventually start running competitive 5 and 10ks, etc. They get a bike for exercise, decide to ride on the road instead of just the neighborhood and eventually are riding group rides, centuries or even racing (less likely as that is licensed).
Kids are fascinated by a train running around a display, convince their parents they need a 4x8 HO or N scale train set pike and progress to scale model railroading, operations, etc.
If the attitude is that unless you are operating prototypically, with exact standards and not "running in circles", you are discouraging the future hobbists from even getting started! There should be a place for whatever entertains, amuses or interests anybody. It's about having fun and enjoying one's self, not judging the other participants.
I'm surprised this is even a 'thing' for which a definition is possible. It ignores even the most fundamental dichotomy in model railroading, which is whether the modeler is a 'railfan' or a railroader. I don't happen to see the charm of fast-clock operation, acted-out switching problems, or dealing with the politics of many club operations. Doesn't mean I disparage them. The nagging question is why you need rivet-counting accuracy or hundreds of hours of careful scenicking just to facilitate Real Operations from time to time. (Instead of watching as railfans as the admirable models run so realistically...)
There's a place in this hobby for both, just as there is for the guy who loves crafting NMRA-grade scratchbuilt scenes with intricate detail that will never be seen in operation. Or for that matter the whole community of 'my railroad -my rules' people who know what they like, and do it, and know what they don't care about, and ignore it.
My own opinion is that having a detailed layout and not using it is like having a good pipe organ and not playing it. To an extent you care about wear and tear, accidental breakage, upsetting someone else's coupler presets or whatever. But to keep it dark simply because you don't have the full staff to run the real railroad professionally is imho a shame for people who enjoy train-watching as a hobby.
Random_Idea_Poster_6263 I have to ask Randy, just to clarify this is from the August 2020 issue of model railroader right? I havent read the magazine in a while, so forgive me as I didn't realize the "Train Of Thouht, was a regular feature in the magazine. I will give the article a read once I find it. Thanks for making the discussion as its quite informative, as I too wish to just run trains, and maybe operations later on.
I have to ask Randy, just to clarify this is from the August 2020 issue of model railroader right? I havent read the magazine in a while, so forgive me as I didn't realize the "Train Of Thouht, was a regular feature in the magazine. I will give the article a read once I find it. Thanks for making the discussion as its quite informative, as I too wish to just run trains, and maybe operations later on.
Yes, August 2020 MR. Tony's been writing this column since the 80's. Without looking, it might have been every other month originally, but it's been monthly for a LONG time.
I already have and finished the issue because as a Digital subscriber, it was available at least Friday, might have been there earlier, but it was there when I checked Friday.
Well, while I had to sleep, it seems the response I was going to make has been made.
ANd Paul's response to my response pretty much made my point - just running a train around, switching cars is "boring"? What you call boring, I call fun - and finding the fun in that casual running of trains is exactly what I meant when I said I hope I never lose that. And it will be even more fun with a Proto-Throttle when I get the layout far enough along.
I can't imagine having to bust out a dispatcher, card cards or a switch list, have all the signals operate, or have someone issue train orders, just to drive a train around my layout. That doesn't mean I plug in a throttle and start driving trains like slot cars, seeing how fast I can go around a corner before something derails. Or stage Gomez Addams style explosive crashes. I run trains, realistically but relaxed. That's why my control system is designed to work both with a dispatcher controlling mainline turnouts and to allow local control when the dispatcher computer/panel isn't even turned on.
It's important to me to be able to run trains whenever I want - be that by myself to escape the real world for a while, or to invite some friends over and act like we really work for a railroad (some of my friends do). One does not eliminate the other. You can be a 'serious operator' but still have fun solo.
Sure, I have a home movie of me running a train around in a circle under the Christmas tree when I was 2. And all the layouts I built prior to high school had some form of continuous loop. But even our family room holiday layout, which grew to close to 5x10, the absolute largest that could fit - this putting me in the 6-9 year old range - I didn't just run trains around and anround in circles. We had sidings for setouts and poickups, a bit of a staging yard on the final extension, more so we didn't have to handle the trains as much and could park them on the layout. I wasn't another Bruce Chubb, operating via car card with a Lionel set when I was 5, but it was fun. It was always a disappointment when it was time to pack it all away until next year.
It's also telling that the one hobby I have truly stuck with since that horrible day in early 1975 when my Dad passed away is model railroading. Even though up until then it was just a part time of the year thing, since we had no room for a permanent layout. We did lots of other things as well, but apart from some casual camping and going with my friend to the shooting range, it's been the model railroading that has stuck. Not saying I don't or wouldn't enjoy the other things, but I never became a hunter, I haven't fished since I was maybe 10 or 11, only been target shooting 3 times since 7th grade when I participated in intramural riflery, and camped maybe 3 times since my Mom finally got a newer car in 1980 that didn't have a hitch and sold the popup camper we had. But apart from high school and college, I've always been somehow involved in model railroading (and even then I did occasionally pick up a magazine, and I did have a layout in my room although it was mostly ignored by high school and I carried it to the basement where it sat until a couple of years ago when we cleaned out the house.