Railroad Trivia Game

[lone geep]

James J Hill. 

Keeping with the Northwestern theme. What is the name of the first locomotive of the Northern Pacific Railway?

[Track fiddler]

4-8-4 Timken 1111, this Northern known as four aces.

What color green is BNSF's green?

 

 

TF

[gmpullman]

Track fiddler

4-8-4 Timken 1111

The Four Aces was built in 1930 and N-P bought it in August of '31.

Their first?

Just wondered...  Cheers, Ed

[Track fiddler]

gmpullman

 

 

The Four Aces was built in 1930 and N-P bought it in August of '31.

Their first?

Just wondered...  Cheers, Ed

 

 

I hope so Ed, otherwise the OP, (being me) is kicked off for a day.

 

The next question was.

What color green is BNSF's green? 

And that question is up for grabs for anyone that answers it first to be able to ask the next question.

 

 

TF

[Track fiddler]

Hint.... the color of green is in your name Ed!

Unless you may just be toying with me

 

 

TF

[andrechapelon]

lone geep

James J Hill. 

Keeping with the Northwestern theme. What is the name of the first locomotive of the Northern Pacific Railway?

 

 

"Minnetonka".

http://zenithcity.com/archive/historic-industry/the-locomotive-minnetonka/

Damn,what do I do now?

The Lackawanna was once known a "The Route of Phoebe Snow". Which railroad was known as the "Dan Patch Line"?

[Track fiddler]

Dang,  I knew that one and even have a picture of it but I forgot about that trip to the Duluth Depot.

I need to do something about my short-term memory.

Ed tried to warn before anyone else had the question right

 

4)  A new rule,  You can help your buddy if you see he has the wrong answer before someone else answers it right.

 

I'm kicked off the thread for 24 hours per OP's rules.  I'm a team player, you Kids take it from here

 

 

TF

 

[Track fiddler]

andrechapelon

 

 

 

 

 

Damn,what do I do now?

 

 

You ask the next question Andre.

Might I suggest, when in doubt, go re-read the rules and this may help

 

P.S.   Andre

You were the last poster before I got kicked off for 24 hours so now you are the OP to handle things until I get back   I have all the confidence in the world you can handle it,  you may want to study the rules though

 

 

TF

[andrechapelon]

Track fiddler

 So I'm the stuckee now? OK, I asked the next question, but there have been no answers as yet. 

 

andrechapelon

 

 

 

 

 

Damn,what do I do now?

 

 

 

 

 

You ask the next question Andre.

Might I suggest, when in doubt, go re-read the rules and this may help

 

P.S.   Andre

You were the last poster before I got kicked off for 24 hours so now you are the OP to handle things until I get back   I have all the confidence in the world you can handle it,  you may want to study the rules though

 

 

TF

 

[Track fiddler]

Post Hog!

 

Andre

Where the heck are you?  Seriously it's your turn to ask a Railroad trivia question, you can't just go away.

If you don't want the responsibility of taking over the post until I get back I can understand and I will give it to Brent.

But you got to be a team player and ask the next trivia question because there was an answer as you answered the last one right. (Minnetonka)

And a good job I may add

 

Now it's your turn to ask a railroad trivia question.  Thanks

 

 

TF

[andrechapelon]

Track fiddler

Post Hog!

Andre

Where the heck are you?  Seriously it's your turn to ask a Railroad trivia question, you can't just go away.

If you don't want the responsibility of taking over the post until I get back I can understand and I will give it to Brent.

But you got to be a team player and ask the next trivia question because there was an answer as you answered the last one right. (Minnetonka)

And a good job I may add

 

Now it's your turn to ask a railroad trivia question.  Thanks

 

 

TF

 

 

I did ask a question after asking what now? Read the entire edited reply!

[Track fiddler]

Oh you did.  I mixed it up with your sign off phrase.

And I beg your humble pardon.

I best give up my speed reading technology to someone that knows how to do it  I hope now I didn't doink up my own thread.  I should have taken my 24-hour leave of absence while I still had the chance

If there's still hope, carry on with Andre's question please

 

 

TF

["JaBear"]

Track fiddler

I should have taken my 24-hour leave of absence while I still had the chance

Yes, you should have, there’s no helping some ffolkes! 

 

To answer Andres question, no wonder it was known as the Dan Patch Line, the Minneapolis St. Paul Rochester and Dubuque Electric Traction Company (MStPR&D), is a real mouthful!!

 

3 in 1. Who operated the first class of 4-6-2 locomotives in the world, who built them, and in what year???

 

Cheers, the Bear.

[Tinplate Toddler]

NZR´s G class in 1901.

Which rail vehicle used an aircraft engine for propulsion?

[bagal]

Actually New Zealand Railways Q class of 1901 built by Baldwin. 

The G class Pacific was much later. NZR had three Garrett locos that weren't so successful so they were rebuilt into six standard locks.

bagal

 

[Tinplate Toddler]

Correct - it´s a typo, I meant Q class (gosh, I need a new pair of glasses!)

["JaBear"]

 

Thanks, bagal, for the clarification.

 

Ulrich, I had to put on my spectacles to make sure I spelt this correctly, Schienenzeppelin.

I saw a Marklin HO scale model of one running at a show, some years ago, interesting.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-ID_ktSoLY

 

What was the name of the first Canadian built steam locomotive?

 

Cheers, the Bear.

[hon30critter]

Hi JaBear,

Despite being a Canadian, my knowledge of Canadian locomotive history is sadly lacking so I can't answer your question.

However, I would like to thank you for the video of the Schienenzeppelin! Seeing the uncovered frame was really interesting, and it was also neat to see the various models that were developed. Alas, it was not a great concept so it is relegated to the history books.

Dave

Edit: Google is your friend! The very first Canadian built locomotive was named the 'Toronto' and it was built in 1853 by a foundry at Queen and Victoria Sts in (you guessed it) Toronto. It was a 25 tonner which was massive for the time and it ran between Toronto and Aurora (about 30 miles).

Here she is:

I'll wait until you tell me whether I am right or wrong before concocting a new trivia question.

Dave

[gmpullman]

hon30critter

Alas, it was not a great concept so it is relegated to the history books.

Oh, somebody did try an aircraft engine glued to a passenger car one more time:

Still, it was a one-off 

Now, back to our regular programming — Ed

[SPSOT fan]

I also though of NYC's weird RDC experiment! Those are aircraft engines, I had though they might be JT3s (from 707) or JT8s (like a DC9), but I googled it and according to Wikipedia they are ex Convair B-36 Peacemaker JT-47 engines. (Here's the link to the Wikipedia page for those interested: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-497_Black_Beetle) If your firmiliar with the naucels on a B-36 you'll see NYC hardly changed the engines on the M-497!

[andrechapelon]

hon30critter

Hi JaBear,

Despite being a Canadian, my knowledge of Canadian locomotive history is sadly lacking so I can't answer your question.

However, I would like to thank you for the video of the Schienenzeppelin! Seeing the uncovered frame was really interesting, and it was also neat to see the various models that were developed. Alas, it was not a great concept so it is relegated to the history books.

Dave

Edit: Google is your friend! The very first Canadian built locomotive was named the 'Toronto' and it was built in 1853 by a foundry at Queen and Victoria Sts in (you guessed it) Toronto. It was a 25 tonner which was massive for the time and it ran between Toronto and Aurora (about 30 miles).

Here she is:

I'll wait until you tell me whether I am right or wrong before concocting a new trivia question.

Dave

 

 

You are correct.

 

https://thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/locomotives-and-rolling-stock

[gmpullman]

SPSOT fan

I also though of NYC's weird RDC experiment!

At the risk of being a "post-hog" and in light of the fact that this thread is trivia-oriented, here's a copy of my New York Central employee's magazine from September, of '66, with some insight into the M-497:

NYC_Headlight_1 by Edmund, on Flickr

---

 

NYC_Headlight_2 by Edmund, on Flickr

---

NYC_Headlight_3 by Edmund, on Flickr

I hope the OP is OK with that 

I seem to recall that the engines were later used on some of NYC's "Snow-Blowers".

Cheers, Ed

 

[dehusman]

In which country was the first camelback engine operated and for an extra added bonus, which railroad owned it?

[Track fiddler]

gmpullman

 

 

I hope the OP is OK with that 

 

 

 

Of course I am Ed  Interesting stuff,  enjoyed.  I think extra info on related trivia makes the thread more fun

P.S.   See added rule number 5.

 

Carry on

 

 

TF

[andrechapelon]

dehusman

In which country was the first camelback engine operated and for an extra added bonus, which railroad owned it?

 

Are you referring to the true camelback (anthracite burner) or to B&O's Winan's "Camel"?

 

 

 

[Wolf359]

dehusman

In which country was the first camelback engine operated and for an extra added bonus, which railroad owned it?

 

According to my research, the first true camelback was built in 1877 in Reading, Pennsylvania, right here in the USA. It was a 4-6-0 built by the P&R's own reading shops.

In what year was the first Union Pacific Challenger built?

[Overmod]

[quote user="Wolf359]In what year was the first Union Pacific Challenger built?[/quote]

1936.

(This assumes that the earlier B&O engines are 'Camels', not Camelbacks or Mother Hubbards as the design came to be known)

What great Next Big Thing device of the late 1930s, inspired by a method of oil firing, was installed on 74 B&O locomotives ... before disappearing nearly entirely by the end of WWII?  (Truth to tell ... disappearing very shortly after the beginning of WWII)

[andrechapelon]

[quote user="Overmod"]

[quote user="Wolf359]In what year was the first Union Pacific Challenger built?[/quote]

1936.

(This assumes that the earlier B&O engines are 'Camels', not Camelbacks or Mother Hubbards as the design came to be known)

What great Next Big Thing device of the late 1930s, inspired by a method of oil firing, was installed on 74 B&O locomotives ... before disappearing nearly entirely by the end of WWII?  (Truth to tell ... disappearing very shortly after the beginning of WWII)

 

[/quote] 

Off hand, I'd say water tube boilers.

[gmpullman]

Overmod

What great Next Big Thing device of the late 1930s, inspired by a method of oil firing, was installed on 74 B&O locomotives ... before disappearing nearly entirely by the end of WWII?

I'm going to stick my neck out here and say Front-Delivery Stokers.

Colonel Emerson was always trying some pretty radical ideas. I believe the peak number was eighty B&O and Alton locomotives to have the front stoker installed.

Regards, Ed

 

[Overmod]

Ed's right.  Does he have pictures?  They were in active development by Standard Stoker after 1937 so there ought to be some shots, somewhere...

[gmpullman]

Overmod

Ed's right.  Does he have pictures?

Sure wish I did. That would be some monstrosity to see.

So, along those lines, can anyone identify what we are looking at here? And the name of the manufacturer?

Mystery_1 by Edmund, on Flickr

Good Luck, Ed

[dknelson]

Oh dear.  I think I had my most recent colonoscopy on one of those.  

I wish you hadn't reminded me of that, Ed.

Dave Nelson

[gmpullman]

dknelson

I think I had my most recent colonoscopy on one of those.

Why do I all of a sudden want to watch "Star Trek" ?

OK, back to our fun-n-games   Ed

[BATMAN]

gmpullman

 

 

Overmod

Ed's right.  Does he have pictures?

 

 

Sure wish I did. That would be some monstrosity to see.

So, along those lines, can anyone identify what we are looking at here? And the name of the manufacturer?

Mystery_1 by Edmund, on Flickr

Good Luck, Ed

 

Some sort of blower or dryer.

[Overmod]

The only thing I can think of that fits that sort of Cerberus nozzle arrangement would be Fuller-Lehigh style pulverized-fuel feeding, as for lignite burning.

[gmpullman]

Here's another hint that will pretty much disclose its purpose.

Southern Ry. stoker by Edmund, on Flickr

So —  Who made it?

Good Luck, Ed

[BATMAN]

gmpullman

So — Who made it?

Serial # 51132. That one was made by Bob.

[Overmod]

Southern Railway pulverized coal experiments in the '20s.  You're going to make me say Fuller-Kinyon distributing system, aren't you?

[gmpullman]

Well, maybe this one was a stretch, certainly wasn't Easy Street!

Street_page1 by Edmund, on Flickr

This is the Type B Street Stoker. Quite a mechanical contraption with that bucket-conveyor and all the associated gearing. Must have been a real headache, not only to keep this contraption in repair but to have to work around the cab appliances with this octopus in the way!

Stoker_street1 by Edmund, on Flickr

Any coincidence that their address was also shared with the American Locomotive Works?

Cheers, Ed.

Anyone else can come up with a question.

[Overmod]

While you're at it -- there was also the Street underfeed stoker that was rather unsuccessfully put on the first PRR K4s -- souring PRR on subsequent stoker use to the point they left stokers off the K5s as built, one of the dumbest of the dumb things a railroad did in that era...

[gmpullman]

Was that also known as the Crawford Stoker?

Let's not forget the Rube-Goldberg Elvin Stoker!

http://www.martynbane.co.uk/modernsteam/tech/elvin.htm

I believe some Big Four and maybe other NYC engines had these for a while. They also look like a mechanic's nightmare!

Cheers, Ed

["JaBear"]

Apart from the short-lived “G” Class Garretts amongst whose faults were an over complicated mechanical stoker, the NZR relied on firemen and shovel power, so due to Ed and others, I’ve learnt a lot, and have come to the conclusion that the “G” Class mechanical stokers must have been real doozies!

gmpullman

Anyone else can come up with a question.

Hmmm, 900 and something views and no one’s taking up Eds offer.

 

Ok, so what were the “Detroit”, “Manitowoc”, “Windsor” and “Pere Marquette 10”?

 

Cheers, the Bear.

[Water Level Route]

Ok, so what were the “Detroit”, “Manitowoc”, “Windsor” and “Pere Marquette 10”?

Railroad car ferries.

What is the silver box and associated equipment?

[SPSOT fan]

Judgeing from the position of the equipment, especially where those pipes are pointing, and the fact that it is winter, my best guess is those are switch heaters!

 

I think I'm supposed to ask a question now right?

How about what do "Stampede", "Stevens", and "Snoqualmie" have to do with railroads?

 

P.S. I'm not 100% sure if I'm following the rules correctly here, so if I'm not please let me know!

[Overmod]

SPSOT fan

How about what do "Stampede", "Stevens", and "Snoqualmie" have to do with railroads?

Famous passes to the Pacific Northwest.

What, and when, was the first fixed rail crossing of the Mississippi River?

(Isn't that silver box some kind of power derail, or perhaps an 'occupancy sensor' or axle counting device?  It isn't placed where it would do any good as a switch heater, it has a head reminiscent of a typical motor drive, and I see no tanks or lines for the fuel necessary in such a location for a heater.  Note the large number of tie bars to the movable points, indicating either heavy loads or preservation of high-speed geometry...)

[SPSOT fan]

Overmod

(Isn't that silver box some kind of power derail, or perhaps an 'occupancy sensor' or axle counting device?  It isn't placed where it would do any good as a switch heater, it has a head reminiscent of a typical motor drive, and I see no tanks or lines for the fuel necessary in such a location for a heater.  Note the large number of tie bars to the movable points, indicating either heavy loads or preservation of high-speed geometry...)

 

I considered the previously posted image being a derail, but it seems to me that they are not connected to the points, to me it looks like the switch rod heads off to the left out of the photo...

Occupancy detector seems possible... I don't really know how they work...

I honestly have no idea what it is, these where just the reasons I didn't say switch machine (that was actually my first idea!). I honestly can't wait till the poster of that question responds! I don't really care if I'm right, I just REALLY want to know the answer!

[Water Level Route]

Overmod

(Isn't that silver box some kind of power derail, or perhaps an 'occupancy sensor' or axle counting device?  It isn't placed where it would do any good as a switch heater, it has a head reminiscent of a typical motor drive, and I see no tanks or lines for the fuel necessary in such a location for a heater.  Note the large number of tie bars to the movable points, indicating either heavy loads or preservation of high-speed geometry...)

Good thoughts, but young Isaac has it correct.  All electric.  More info can be found here: https://spectruminfrared.com/railroad-products-and-track-switch-heaters/rrsh-hot-air-blower/

Now back to the game!

Overmod

What, and when, was the first fixed rail crossing of the Mississippi River?

[SPSOT fan]

I checked out that link on switch heaters, very cool! They would make a nice detail for the more modern railroads, I wonder if anyone has done one on a model railroad?

[Overmod]

That's nifty!

Of course, this also means Isaac gets the next question... oh wait, he did.  Carry on!

That thing would make a nifty set of detail castings for modelers.  One piece for the box, one for the 'manifold', two for the directional heads... clean out a crib and glue it on down; doesn't even seem to require detail painting.

[Wolf359]

[quote user="Overmod"]

[quote user="Wolf359]In what year was the first Union Pacific Challenger built?[/quote]

1936.

(This assumes that the earlier B&O engines are 'Camels', not Camelbacks or Mother Hubbards as the design came to be known)

What great Next Big Thing device of the late 1930s, inspired by a method of oil firing, was installed on 74 B&O locomotives ... before disappearing nearly entirely by the end of WWII?  (Truth to tell ... disappearing very shortly after the beginning of WWII)

 

[/quote]

[quote user="andrechapelon"]

[quote user="Overmod"]

[quote user="Wolf359]In what year was the first Union Pacific Challenger built?[/quote]

1936.

(This assumes that the earlier B&O engines are 'Camels', not Camelbacks or Mother Hubbards as the design came to be known)

What great Next Big Thing device of the late 1930s, inspired by a method of oil firing, was installed on 74 B&O locomotives ... before disappearing nearly entirely by the end of WWII?  (Truth to tell ... disappearing very shortly after the beginning of WWII)

 

[/quote] 

Off hand, I'd say water tube boilers.

 

[/quote]

Sorry for the late response, I got involved with a project and never got back to this. 1936 is indeed the correct build date for the first UP Challenger. If anyone is interested in more info on Camelback locos, this Wikipedia artical is where I got my information from. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelback_locomotive  This should be a fun and interesting thread if we can keep it going. I really like trivia, that's why Jeopardy is one of my favourite tv shows.

[gmpullman]

SPSOT fan

They would make a nice detail for the more modern railroads, I wonder if anyone has done one on a model railroad?

Details West is your answer 

https://www.walthers.com/switch-heater-with-blower-propane-tank-heater-duct

Cheers, Ed

[garya]

Overmod

 

 

SPSOT fan

How about what do "Stampede", "Stevens", and "Snoqualmie" have to do with railroads?

 

 

Famous passes to the Pacific Northwest.

What, and when, was the first fixed rail crossing of the Mississippi River?

(Isn't that silver box some kind of power derail, or perhaps an 'occupancy sensor' or axle counting device?  It isn't placed where it would do any good as a switch heater, it has a head reminiscent of a typical motor drive, and I see no tanks or lines for the fuel necessary in such a location for a heater.  Note the large number of tie bars to the movable points, indicating either heavy loads or preservation of high-speed geometry...)

 

I believe this is the current question.  Wasn't it the Rock Island, at Rock Island? I have to cheat and look it up...1856?  I suspect a trick, though...

If correct, my trivia question is:

What locomotive caught the General?

[Wolf359]

garya

 

If correct, my trivia question is:

What locomotive caught the General?

 

 

The Texas.

For my trivia question: What types of locomotive (wheel arrangement) did the Colorado Midland Railway use?

P.S. You don't have to name all of the types, (unless you want to) just one will do.

[Track fiddler]

And the conductor William Allen Fuller drove the Texas backwards to catch Andrews in the stolen general.

The Texas

Image from Wikipedia

 

The General

Always loved the General

Rogers, Ketchum & Grosvenor

As far as I am concerned the designers of the General are world-famous artists and should be commemorated for their creation

It is a Piece of Art!

 

Carry on.

 

 

TF

[Tinplate Toddler]

Wolf359

What types of locomotive (wheel arrangement) did the Colorado Midland Railway use?

Tenwheelers!

Which railroad connected the town of Marble/CO. with the outside world?

[Overmod]

Tinplate Toddler

Which railroad connected the town of Marble/CO. with the outside world?

Fascinating!  That's something charming I would never have known to look for, like something out of a Mark Helprin novel.

Treasury Mountain Railway.

[York1]

Ulrich, was it the Crystal River RR?

 

I'm going to assume that's the answer until I hear differently.

My question:  What is one of the only two or three electric railways operating west of the Mississippi River?

[Overmod]

York1

My question:  What is one of the only two or three electric railways operating west of the Mississippi River?

Now, or 'ever'?

Does the Caltrain Peninsula electrification count?

[York1]

I was going for now, and I didn't count Caltrain or other mainly transit railroads.  My mistake.  I guess I was aiming at freight-carrying railroads, but that's not what I said.

Your turn!

[Overmod]

Leave passenger railroads out then; name at least one currently-operating electric freight railroad west of the Mississippi.

[York1]

Overmod

Leave passenger railroads out then; name at least one currently-operating electric freight railroad west of the Mississippi.

 

Now what do I do?  Answer the question I meant to ask?

OK.

1.  The Deseret Power Railway in Utah and Colorado.  It hauls coal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deseret_Power_Railway

 

2.  The Iowa Traction Railway.  It hauls general freight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa_Traction_Railway

 

3.  The Navajo Mine Railroad.  It hauls coal.  Although I believe this is not presently running, the track and overhead wires are all intact.  I drove on a highway parallel to this track last year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navajo_Mine_Railroad

 

Since I am not a railroad expert, I am unaware of any others if they exist.

[Tinplate Toddler]

York1

Ulrich, was it the Crystal River RR?

Yes - it was the Crystal River & San Juan RR.

["JaBear"]

Water Level Route

Railroad car ferries.

Bingo, Mike!!!

Gives me an excuse to link to one of my favourite railroad related photos.

https://www.shorpy.com/node/14494

Cheers, the Bear.

[dehusman]

andrechapelon

Are you referring to the true camelback (anthracite burner) or to B&O's Winan's "Camel"?

True camelback, where the cab straddles the boiler.

[dehusman]

Wolf359

According to my research, the first true camelback was built in 1877 in Reading, Pennsylvania, right here in the USA. It was a 4-6-0 built by the P&R's own reading shops.

Close but no cigar.  You are partially right, but you missed the country in which they were first operated (which could also technically be the country in which it was made.)

[Overmod]

Tinplate Toddler

Yes - it was the Crystal River & San Juan RR.

Technically the Crystal River RR is NOT the Crystal River & San Juan, which was the last-mile connection into Marble.

And what about the Treasury Mountain Railway?

Neither of these things ought to disqualify him from answering for a day, etc. etc.  Rules for this game aren't at all like the quizzes on Classic Trains and they take some getting used to.

[Tinplate Toddler]

Overmod

Technically the Crystal River RR is NOT the Crystal River & San Juan, which was the last-mile connection into Marble.

The Crystal River RR ceased operation somewhere around 1919, but was later leased to the CR&SJ RR, which operated the line from Carbondale to Marble until its closure in 1941. Both railroads belonged to the CF&I, so while legally independent entities, the could be seen technically as one, clearly in the years after the CS&SJ RR took over the operation.

[Overmod]

Tinplate Toddler

The Crystal River RR ceased operation somewhere around 1919, but was later leased to the CR&SJ RR, which operated the line from Carbondale to Marble until its closure in 1941.

I only bring the issue up because some of the references for the Marble operations clearly distinguish the two, with the CR&SJ being the only one actually entering Marble (which was the form of the question)

Ownership by Colorado Fuel & Iron doesn't make them the same thing, any more than ownership of a majority of B&O or LV by PRR (or an attempt to set up Pennroad as a kind of competition to the van Sweringens) would make the roads part of the Pennsylvania.

And what about Treasury Mountain Railway, which at least one reference says was a route directly out of Marble to connecting railroads?

[Overmod]

Name a famous luxury automobile powered by an engine designed for a rail vehicle.  Then name a rail vehicle powered by an engine designed for a famous luxury automobile.

["JaBear"]

dehusman

Wolf359 According to my research, the first true camelback was built in 1877 in Reading, Pennsylvania, right here in the USA. It was a 4-6-0 built by the P&R's own reading shops.

Close but no cigar.  You are partially right, but you missed the country in which they were first operated (which could also technically be the country in which it was made.)

 

Geez Dave, this has sorely tested the Bears brain cell. So many names, and for that matter, definitions for a particular type of locomotive! I went down so many dead ends and came across so much, even though it may have been only slight, conflicting information, that it was doing my head in!! Saw a lot of weird and wonderful locomotives, though!!

 

Refreshed after a nights kip, and primed with a couple of morning coffees, I’ve come up with the following.

 

The following is quoted from The Railway and Locomotive Historical Society Bulletin, No. 52 (May, 1940), “The Development of the Anthracite-Burning Locomotive” by Paul T. Warner.

 

“Engine 408 proved successful, and was followed by others of a similar design. One of them, No. 412 was sent to Europe, and exhibited at the Paris Exposition of 1878. It was subsequently tried on the Northern Railway of France and also on several Italian roads, where it burned low grade fuel with marked success.

 

In the first Wooten boiler locomotives constructed, including engine 412, the cab was apparently placed over the firebox. On account of restricted clearance limits on the Northern Railway of France, it was necessary, before placing the locomotive in service on that line, to move the cab ahead of the firebox, so it could be lowered. This was probably the first of a long series of locomotives subsequently nicknamed “Camel-backs” or “Mother Hubbards.”

 

I believe that P & R No. 408 was the locomotive that Wolf359 was referring to; and it is interesting to note that in the last paragraph, I quoted, Mr. Warner used the words, “apparently” and “probably”.

 

Still, I rest my case, but if I’m wrong, I’ll be in the back booth of the Diner having a little cry.

Cheers, the baffled and bamboozled Bear.

[dehusman]

I believe that P & R No. 408 was the locomotive that Wolf359 was referring to

I'll give it to you, according to Holton's history of the Reading, the engine was a conventional 4-6-0 sent to Italy to demonstate the Wooten firebox (Italy has anthracite).  The engine with the cab on the top of the firebox was too tall to fit through the tunnels so the engineer and fireman moved the cab to the running boards ahead of the firebox, creating the first Camelback.  It operated in Italy and was shipped back to the US, where the reconfigured cab allowed bigger engines to operate through lower tunnels over here.

If you like that one, what year were camelbacks outlawed by the ICC?

["JaBear"]

Time to throw a written hand grenade into the discussion and then beat a hasty retreat!!

 

dehusman

If you like that one, what year were camelbacks outlawed by the ICC?

According to one, and don’t ask me which one it was, “authoritative account”, Camelbacks weren’t actually banned!

 

Cheers, the Bear. 

 

[dehusman]

According to one, and don’t ask me which one it was, “authoritative account”, Camelbacks weren’t actually banned!

Very good!  It was a trick question, they weren't banned, the ICC looked at it but the railroads had already stopped building them so no action was taken.

[Wolf359]

Tinplate Toddler

 

 

Wolf359

What types of locomotive (wheel arrangement) did the Colorado Midland Railway use?

 

 

Tenwheelers!

 

 

 

Sorry I'm late again. Ten wheelers are correct. The CM also used Consolidations and 0-6-0s.

[Overmod]

dehusman

Very good!  It was a trick question, they weren't banned, the ICC looked at it but the railroads had already stopped building them so no action was taken.

Not as much of a trick question as you think.  The ICC did ban new construction of Mother Hubbards in 1927 (for a number of the logical 'safety-related' reasons) but didn't outlaw continuing the use of existing ones (as a different test of 'safety' would apply).

Reason for the ban, as I recall, was a prospective order of larger, modern engines (I think for delivery in 1928) which were not built as such 'in the event'.

You can track through the actions more easily if you look a bit slantwise at accounts of other ICC actions peripheral to this one; as with the ICC Order that actually re-imposed strict ATS over 79mph in the wake of the Naperville collision, you see lots of reference to it without anyone actually quoting a definitive Federal Register text.  But it is mentioned both in the discussion of imposing power reverse requirements (effective in the mid-Thirties) and stoker requirements above certain nominal size...

Here's a different question: when was the first steam-locomotive-powered trip through the North River PRR tunnels?

[Overmod]

dehusman

I'll give it to you, according to Holton's history of the Reading, the engine was a conventional 4-6-0 sent to Italy to demonstrate the Wootten [note sp.] firebox (Italy has anthracite).

I believe this is also mentioned in the Pennoyer Locomotives In Our Lives book.  I couldn't remember the specific details of the Italian testing, only that it was in Italy, so said nothing.

(Incidentally if anyone wants a PDF of the Warner article, PM with your e-mail address.  I now have Holton's 1979 article on Wootten and the Reading shops, too.)

["JaBear"]

Overmod

Then name a rail vehicle powered by an engine designed for a famous luxury automobile.

I think I maybe barking up the wrong tree, if in fact do Bears bark up trees? But here’s the shot gun approach, though only using a single barrel.

 

Pierce-Arrow were known as makers of luxury cars especially prior to the 1930s, five were converted by the Rio Grande Southern into railcars, nicknamed the Galloping Goose. (Geese???)

 

The German company Maybach-Motorenbau GmbH. started making luxury cars, and automobile engines in 1919, and engines for railcars, though to be fair, it would appear that they, more often than not, were diesels.

 

In their early days, the British company Wolseley built luxury cars, and I see that in 1905, GE used a Wolseley engine to power their test gas electric, which became Delaware & Hudson doodlebug #1000.

 

Cheers, the guessing Bear.

 

Not a trivia question as such, but in my “research” on Camelbacks, one publication asserted that no Camelbacks actually threw a side rod, making the reason for them being “banned” for being dangerous, irrelevant. To our Gentlemen, knowledgeable on matters, Camelback, True or false?

[BRAKIE]

Ok.. What EMD locomotive engineer  said In planing the GP I had two dreams. The first was to make a locomotive so ugly in appearance that no railroad would want it on the main line or anywhere near headquarters, but would keep it out as far as possible in the back country, where it could do really useful work. My second dream was to make it so simple in construction and so devoid of Christmas-tree ornaments and other whimsy.."

[Tinplate Toddler]

Larry - he was successfull on both accounts. In my personal view, the last nice looking engine - aside from steam engines - were the F´s. Whatever came after that, is outright ugly!

[Overmod]

Bear, it's more direct than that.  The first -- use of the rail engine directly in an automobile -- is quite well known, and I have to worry people think this half is a trick question -- it isn't.  Some people seem to think it was the other way 'round, with the car engine so 'big' it was used in railcars, but that is not how I learned the story.

The other one is more interesting.  It was a very modern engine, in a very modern vehicle, at the time.  And it is (perhaps unlikely Wolseley) a purpose-built luxury-car engine, not an internal combustion engine that could be used 'after the fact' in automobiles or railcars interchangeably.

Note that in neither case does this involve 'adaptive reuse' as with the Geese and other vast numbers of unsung 'critters' made from automobiles in that era.  The engines were new and, in the latter case, very carefully chosen. 

As a hint, there might have been a certain 'conflict of interest' in the latter case as the engine-builder had made certain investments in an alternative form of rail vehicle very shortly before...

[Tinplate Toddler]

During the Great Depression, the French automaker Bugatti had a hard time selling his very expensive automobiles, so he began building railcars, using the engine of his top luxury model Bugatti Royale.

(Picture from Wikipedia)

Incidentally, the streamline form was later used in the design of the fastest steam engine of the world - the Gresley A4 Pacific.

[Overmod]

Ulrich has the first half, although it should be checked carefully in Molsheim records whether the engine was originally specified and designed for prospective railcar use, with the Royale being 'sized to fit' as an opportunity, as I understood the story to actually be.  (Naturally the engine was a 'good fit' for the high-speed streamlined railcars that would follow later, as I suspect would be the V16 steam motor Bugatti worked on at one point...)

(Incidentally de Dietrich developed a sophisticated steam plant for automobiles and built at least one complete installation using a Bugatti chassis for road testing -- we have found and now published the archive of detail drawings, so with a little work you could reproduce one for a better-than-Doble experience.)

Now what about the other way?  That's the real meat of the question.

I wish I could pose the question of dirigible engines in successful main-line diesel-electric locomotives ... but the engines concerned are as I recall only adapted from lightweight airship construction, not actually 'flyable' versions.  It does make a good story, though, and I suspect Kettering was mindful of at least some details of those engines when working on the ideas that would become the 201.

[Wolf359]

BRAKIE

Ok.. What EMD locomotive engineer  said In planing the GP I had two dreams. The first was to make a locomotive so ugly in appearance that no railroad would want it on the main line or anywhere near headquarters, but would keep it out as far as possible in the back country, where it could do really useful work. My second dream was to make it so simple in construction and so devoid of Christmas-tree ornaments and other whimsy.."

 

I believe it was Richard Dilworth who said that.

[BRAKIE]

Wolf359

 

 

BRAKIE

Ok.. What EMD locomotive engineer  said In planing the GP I had two dreams. The first was to make a locomotive so ugly in appearance that no railroad would want it on the main line or anywhere near headquarters, but would keep it out as far as possible in the back country, where it could do really useful work. My second dream was to make it so simple in construction and so devoid of Christmas-tree ornaments and other whimsy.."

 

 

 

 

I believe it was Richard Dilworth who said that.

 

Yes, It was Richard Dilworth.. Mr. Dilworth was EMD's cheif designer. He did not like either the BL1 or BL2 neither need the sales or the mechanical departments.. Looking at the sales records neither did the railroads.

His "ugly duckling" GP7 turned into a swan in the sales department.

[Wolf359]

BRAKIE

 

 

Wolf359

 

 

BRAKIE

Ok.. What EMD locomotive engineer  said In planing the GP I had two dreams. The first was to make a locomotive so ugly in appearance that no railroad would want it on the main line or anywhere near headquarters, but would keep it out as far as possible in the back country, where it could do really useful work. My second dream was to make it so simple in construction and so devoid of Christmas-tree ornaments and other whimsy.."

 

 

 

 

I believe it was Richard Dilworth who said that.

 

 

 

 

Yes, It was Richard Dilworth.. Mr. Dilworth was EMD's cheif designer. He did not like either the BL1 or BL2 neither need the sales or the mechanical departments.. Looking at the sales records neither did the railroads.

His "ugly duckling" GP7 turned into a swan in the sales department.

 

Obviously Mr. Dilworth knew what he was doing. The fact that the GP7 was an ugly duckling is exactly what made it a hit. A machine that's simple and reliable is always better in my opinion.

Keeping with the "Geep" theme, in what year did EMD build its final GP60 series locomotive?

[Overmod]

Wolf359

Keeping with the "Geep" theme, in what year did EMD build its final GP60 series locomotive?

1989?  All the subsequent ones to 1994 were GMDD...

["JaBear"]

Overmod

Bear, it's more direct than that.  The first -- use of the rail engine directly in an automobile -- is quite well known,

Not to this Bear!!!

 

I see that Winton started off making automobiles but again I think I’m heading off down the wrong road again!!

 

Cheers, the bewildered, baffled, bemused, bamboozled Bear.

[Overmod]

I see that Winton started off making automobiles but again I think I’m heading off down the wrong road again!!

That's related ... but not directly... to the second one.

The first one was the Bugatti that Ulrich was discussing.

Now what rail vehicle was particularly designed for a luxury-car engine?  The Stout Scarab had Ford engines, but those were not luxury.  The engine in question had as many cylinders as a B&O W-1.

[BRAKIE]

 Speaking of GP60s.. CR ordered 26 GP60M-Is but,later cancelled this order and bought this locomotive instead?  

[Overmod]

SD80MACs

Speaking of GP60Ms, Conrail cancelled an order for what locomotive to order those GP60s?  Extra points if you know why they ordered GP60s then... and why the order was for 26.

[BRAKIE]

CR canelled  the SD60I order for the GP60M-Is. If memory serves the GP60Ms was to be assigned to Mail Trains.

------------------------------------------------------

What did C&O  call their 2-8-4s?  

[Overmod]

BRAKIE

What did C&O  call their 2-8-4s?

Kanawhas. 

What did New York Central call their A2a 2-8-4s?

[gmpullman]

Overmod

What did New York Central call their A2a 2-8-4s?

White Elephants?    

 

Ed

[Overmod]

gmpullman

Overmod

What did New York Central call their A2a 2-8-4s?

White Elephants?

I was actually thinking more about the sort of thing Muttley would say:  "Sassafrassarattendratten&$#*@&$..." ... but apparently they figured out how to get performance out of them in Indianapolis.  As far as I know there was little actually wrong with them that wasn't equally wrong for more 'successful' NYC modern steam in the 'new' post-1948 reality.

["JaBear"]

Overmod

 The engine in question had as many cylinders as a B&O W-1

OK, still not entirely convinced I’ve got it, but here I go again.

 

If I’ve correctly taken the B&O W-1 hint, (now that would have been a real piece of kit, had it ever been built!!), I saying that the engine in question is a Besler Brothers adapted Doble steam car engine used in The New York, New Haven and Hartford's Streamliner No. 9610, "The Blue Goose."

 

https://www.classicstreamliners.com/lo-bessler.html

 

Hope I’m still not whistling Dixie!!

Cheers, the Bear.

["JaBear"]

"But there was an earlier 4-8-4, a strangely conceived high-pressure 'freight-only' one, the H S-1a (yes Virginia, there's a space in the cab lettering).  What name did NYC give that locomotive type 'officially' at the time?"

# 800, a failure!!

[Overmod]

Hope I’m still not whistling Dixie!!

Old times dere are not forgotten...

The Besler railcars had the same number of cylinders as ONE of the W-1's engines.

And Doble and the Beslers in their wildest moments would not have built a car with... well, really with more than two cylinders, which they figured quite good enough for 'scalded ape' acceleration without a multiple-gear transmission.  I still can't quite figure out the Bugatti point in using all the cylinders they seem to have been tinkering with; the de Dietrich system in 1938 was far less complecticated but certainly got the job done.

The engine in the 'rail vehicle' in question was used in some of the most undeniably classic cars built.  Not esoteric ones, either.

And the company that built the vehicle (and hoped to sell many of them) was not a household name in passenger transport, but very familiar for a different kind of transport equipment...

[Overmod]

# 800, a failure!!

Certainly wasn't a failure (yet) when they gave it its official name.  Which is a name just as good as 'Mohawk' or 'Hudson'.

Much of the 'failure' of this engine was the implicit idea that high fuel economy and three-cylinder power were the 'future' of freight service.  Not higher speed, not lower capital cost, not better or lower maintenance... and if crews didn't like that huge baleful dial with 850 staring them in the face, they could suck it and see; no, there was no likelihood something like that would lead to passive-aggressive sabotage or worse like in England, was there?

A mere 3 or 4 years later this might have been built with better running gear, slightly taller drivers and modern balancing, and used for things like M&E where its advantages might mean more.  But as it stood you had an awful lot of maintenance and an awful lot of tinkering, very similar to me like PRR designing the Q1 as "5/4 of an M1", for relatively little extra in usable, reliable power.

The thing seems to have run in hump service reliably well (of course with the wacky complications removed) -- just no point in making more instead of improving Mohawks.  The fundamental idea of a better 4-8-4 was of course 'nailed' 15 years later...

[Tinplate Toddler]

I don´t think this is the answer, but the Waggonfabrik Wismar in Germany built a railcar with a  Ford Model A engines at each end, also using an automotive gearbox.

 

[Overmod]

Ulrich, I suspect you could post a considerable thread on the various European railbuses in that period, some of which were quite substantial.

But to my knowledge few of them used high-speed automobile engines like the V12s and better that marked the (relatively brief) age of large classic cars.  Either they were 'economical' (with relatively small gasoline engines or bus engines) or they had purpose-built engines too large to go in regular cars.  In part, I think this was due to the implementation of road buses in the latter '30s, and the concentration of lightweight interest in higher speed rather than the kind of bare-bones service provided in, say, the Kruckenberg Schienenzeppelin.

The thing I'm thinking of had the same idea for achieving high speed as the Scarab with its V8s, but did it with a much more evocative and impressive powerplant.

["JaBear"]

Overmod

Old times dere are not forgotten...

Yeah, having discovered the Besler/Doble connection, I was optimistically and conveniently ignoring the 16 cylinders.

Back to the drawing board.

Cheers, the Bear.

["JaBear"]

 If I’ve missed again, I’m looking for an “I surrender” emoji!!

How about the Cadillac V16 powered Clark Autotrain??

 

http://theoldmotor.com/?p=176500

 

Cheers, the Bear.

 

[hon30critter]

How about the Cadillac V16 powered Clark Autotrain??

Hi Bear,

That is a very interesting railbus. It would be an interesting scratchbuild to go along side my McKeen Motor Car even though there was a 25 year gap between them.

Thanks,

Dave

["JaBear"]

I may be exaggerating Dave, but I reckon modelling all of the one or two off “Doodlebugs” could keep a bloke out of mischief for some time!!

Here’s another one…

http://www.dieselpunks.org/profiles/blogs/sunday-streamline-12-pullman

Cheers, the Bear.

[Overmod]

How about the Cadillac V16 powered Clark Autotrain?

Ding! Ding! Ding!  (Except that if you look a bit more closely, it's actually Auto-Tram...)

I'd have loved to see this used as 'railroading's answer to the Pickwick Nite Coach' (which wasn't going to happen in the '30s for a whole passel of reasons ... but wouldn't it have been fun to watch, and perhaps to run, and perhaps to ride?)

["JaBear"]

Overmod

(Except that if you look a bit more closely, it's actually Auto-Tram...)

By that time, I wus well and truly crossed eyed!!!

I’m afraid the pre-Niagara name is well beyond me. I’ll have the leave it to a New York Centric to come up with the answer.

Cheers, the Bear.

[hon30critter]

The Rail Tram would be a much easier scratchbuild than the Rail Plane. The Rail Tram has slab sides whereas the Rail Plane has compound curves everywhere. I suppose you could whittle it out of a block of balsa but 3D printing would do a better job - for a price!

Dave

[Overmod]

I’m afraid the pre-Niagara name is well beyond me.

Actually, it isn't.  You just don't realize it quite yet.

See the October 1931 issue of the NYC employees' magazine ... or the beginning of Tom Gerbracht's book on the Niagaras.  (It was also a quiz question in mid-February on the Classic Trains forum, where it seems to have met with a predictable response.)

Once you get this, the name assigned to the A2a 2-8-4 ought to be relatively easy to obtain...

[Track fiddler]

Overmod

 

What did New York Central call their A2a 2-8-4s?

 

 

I was going to say The Mohawk but nevermind, I see it was already listed in a hint  The history is a little vague for The Unwanted Berkshire.......................Lima ?

[Overmod]

Track fiddler

The history is a little vague for The Unwanted Berkshire...

Alco through and through -- and the design was carefully considered by Kiefer.  What you have is a special design for a particular 'service', which for example explains both the 63" drivers and the driver-center construction that did not permit correct later balancing for wheels that diameter.

Polaritz has written a very detailed book on these engines, which I have not yet read.  There was of course the story in Classic Trains with that phrase about 'unwanted' (with some technical discussion that could be extended and redacted as necessary with a little additional knowledge).

The real, lethal problem is that the engines started to be delivered in 1948, after the complex of factors leading to rapid first-generation dieselization in the East was well established.  Just as with the T1s, which were slated to be largely 'fixed' in 1948, there "could have been" fixes for the objective problems with the design, quite probably in the A2a's case including something as simple as substitution of Web-Spoke driver centers and some revision of the balancing.

And just as with the T1s, by 1949 you'd likely have a relatively high amount tied up per engine in equipment trusts or some other financing arrangement that needed to, well, disappear ASAP to free up financing for power perceived as more modern, more easily funded, less dependent on leveraged-skyrocketing-cost labor, etc.  One might not be too surprised to find a general reluctance, perhaps mirroring the experience with the S2a, to actually fix problems with a design that could be branded a dog instead.

(And no, it didn't help that P&LE service in particular would benefit almost exordinately from advantages of even first-generation dieselization...)

There is comparatively little film of the A2as working, but some of it is highly enlightening in how quickly and smoothly these engines could reverse and move.  In no small part this was facilitated by the lower drivers.  While we can't use the ACE3000 as a direct comparison (due to the inherent first-order balance in Withuhn conjugated duplexing) it does follow somewhat that comparatively low driver diameter alone is not necessarily a predictor of lack of flexibility.

[Track fiddler]

Overmod,  It was a good one!  I think you stumped us   

It's been five days now and no one has the answer.  Perhaps we'll have to chalk It up like on Penn and Teller..... You fooled us

Unless anyone else objects, I think you should give the answer and ask another question.  Give it an hour.  Speak up if anyone objects.

 

Steady As She Goes

 

 

TF

 

[Overmod]

Track fiddler

Unless anyone else objects, I think you should give the answer and ask another question.

As I said on the Classic Trains forum, I'm glad to be in the Mid-South for the answer.

The A2a Berkshire was ... a Berkshire of course; NYC had the class-leading name and no reason to change it.

The bad news about the H S1a is that it was officially, in late 1931, named ... the Niagara  class.

Here's a quick one: the first passenger Mallet-style articulated was built with an unusual wheel arrangement, 4-4-6-2.  This (as with other true Mallets) was a compound locomotive.  It would be decades before someone else tried a true passenger simple articulated -- what was its wheel arrangement?

[dcb_13]

Pullman Green

[Overmod]

dcb_13

Pullman Green

The original invocation of this 'answer' was back on page 1.  Incidentally according to the preservationists this is Axalta/DuPont 1547QH which is New Pullman Green; the old color used on heavyweight sleepers and so on is a different color.  It is also supposed to be Brewster Green (93-2015) but I haven't quite adjusted my color taste to admit that.  (It doesn't help that these different colors and the paint GN used for their orange-and-green scheme apparently weather differently...)

It hasn't been a BNSF color since around 2005.  You could therefore just as sensibly answer "Grinstein green" (which is intriguingly close both to Brunswick Green and British Racing Green) as there were until recently still some engines in active service wearing Executive Scheme.

There is also that ghastly Cascade Green that was visible until quite recently, for example on local yard power switching the Kellogg's plant in Memphis.

Rules say to pose a question with your answer.  I'm not doing that any more as whenever I do it kills any interest in the thread for a while.  So if I randomly throw out answers that are right, take it as 'open season' for someone else to pose a poser.

[BATMAN]

Okay, I'll ask one and I don't know the answer.

How many railroad routes through the Rocky Mountains are there.

[BRAKIE]

And here's one. On boxcars high and flat car low you see his name where ever you go..

Who is he?

[Overmod]

BRAKIE

And here's one. On boxcars high and flat car low you see his name where ever you go...

You mean the guy who is unable to write, but whose name is seen in yellow and white?

[Track fiddler]

gmpullman

 

 

Overmod

What did New York Central call their A2a 2-8-4s?

 

 

White Elephants?    

 

Ed

 

 

Being the OP of the thread.  If I had to take the position of a judge or referee.  I would have to technically State this answer was correct.

An unwanted Berkshire is extremely similar in comparison to an unwanted Christmas gift

 

Ed, ... It may have been your turn quite some time ago before the thread derailed

 

 

TF

 

P.S.   See! ... Need more emoji.  That one would have been a puzzled looking guy with his hands thrown up in the air

[Track fiddler]

BATMAN

Okay, I'll ask one and I don't know the answer.

How many railroad routes through the Rocky Mountains are there.

 

 

After a long, hard, carefully thought out process I have come up with the answer Brent.

 

All of them.

 

How many railroads currently are in service in North America?

 

 

TF

[Track fiddler]

BRAKIE

And here's one. On boxcars high and flat car low you see his name where ever you go..

Who is he?

 

 

 

Cushion ride guy!

P.S.   Seriously though, ... reporting mark, so I guess his name is Mark.

 

When you hear a loud thump thump sound when a freight car rolls past, what is this caused by?

 

 

 

 

TF

[Water Level Route]

Track fiddler

When you hear a loud thump thump sound when a freight car rolls past, what is this caused by?

A flat spot on a wheel.

What rail line(s) completed the second U.S. transcontinental route?

[Wolf359]

Water Level Route

 

What rail line(s) completed the second U.S. transcontinental route?

 

The Southern Pacific primarily. Other participating lines included AT&SF subsidiary Rio Grande, Mexico and Pacific Railroad, and the Texas and Pacific Railway.

Which railroads were involved in the Royal Gorge Railroad War of the late 1870s?

[Overmod]

Track fiddler

Being the OP of the thread.  If I had to take the position of a judge or referee.  I would have to technically State this answer was correct. An unwanted Berkshire is extremely similar in comparison to an unwanted Christmas gift

Of course, that's not where the expression 'white elephant' originally came from ... and what do you know! it referred to a railroad locomotive.  Which one, and why was it notable?

[SeeYou190]

Overmod

Of course, that's not where the expression originally came from ... and what do you know!

I am having a hard time following this thread.

Is there an order to the questions? It seems that there are a lot of queries being tossed about.

I am becoming unsure which responses go with which questions.

-Kevin

[Track fiddler]

Wolf359

Which railroads were involved in the Royal Gorge Railroad War of the late 1870s?

 

 

Atchison,  Topeka & Santa Fe,  Denver & Rio Grand

 

In terms of railroad track, what is the gradual transition leading to a sharper radius out of a tangent?

 

 

TF

[Track fiddler]

Water Level Route

 

What rail line(s) completed the second U.S. transcontinental route?

 

 

Post Hog

Almost 12 years after the Promontory Summit the Southern Pacific Railway completed the second transcontinental Railroad with Milestone and ceremonies in 1881 and 1883.  From what I gathered Northern Pacific and Texas Pacific played a big hand in it as well.

 

I'll edit if I think of another question, but I think there's enough right now.

As Kevin stated, this thread has become a little confusing with too many questions.  I have tried to be a good host today and gather the reins but I am limited with my efforts

 

TF

 

[BRAKIE]

Track fiddler

 

 

BRAKIE

And here's one. On boxcars high and flat car low you see his name where ever you go..

Who is he?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cushion ride guy!

P.S.   Seriously though, ... reporting mark, so I guess his name is Mark.

 

When you hear a loud thump thump sound when a freight car rolls past, what is this caused by?

 

 

 

 

TF

 

TF.. Who the heck is J.B King ?

You see his name on boxcars high and flat cars low.

You see his name where ever you go.

J.B King Esq moniker  was sign without lifting the chalk. 

[Track fiddler]

Your humble pardon is requested Larry. 

I can't be right all the time, nor would I want to be.  I got that one wrong and I accept the consequences per my own rules.  I cannot play this game till tomorrow now.

Seriously,  I'm not familiar with any JB King as I see there is a lot of them.  I do like the Blues and BB King though

 

 

TF

 

P.S.  I immediately dove in with all fours Larry.  I just read up on JB King and now have an understanding.  Somehow that one slipped by me all these years.

[Overmod]

Track fiddler

In terms of railroad track, what is the gradual transition leading to a sharper radius out of a tangent?

There are actually two, when you have any superelevation: horizontal and vertical transition spirals.

When I was a kid MR actually published a template that you could cut out and paste on cardboard to make a spiral transition -- I was fascinated.  Didn't occur to me to learn the mathematics behind it until later, but to this day the approach is a good one for modeling if you have the room...

Kevin, see if the amended version makes a bit better sense than the one you read and quoted.  The question involves how 'white elephant' might have come to mean something unwanted and perhaps obsolescent -- and, ultimately, applicable to unwanted Christmas gifts that keep being given...

"J.B. King" was a bit like an earlier version of the Kilroy was Here trope.  He was supposedly invented by a couple of Cincinnati switchmen who put his 'signature' in chalk on various cars that passed through their 'purview'.  I suspect the thing may have caught on for a while as a fad.  Then supposedly revived later as the tale of a millionaire hobo.  What fun!

(I was going to add that chalk was a key part of the hobo lifestyle if you're wondering why the tags were done in chalk... but TF rightly reminds me that even imaginary hobos come under the ban, so I won't.)

[Track fiddler]

Overmod-eration!

Just Breathe, ... just breathe baby

 

Knock knock, knock knock, no hobo allowed in the Forum.  Maybe just go back to the start and read the rules,  here and here.

 

 

TF

[gmpullman]

Track fiddler

Knock knock, knock knock, no hobo allowed in the Forum. 

Mr. Otte has mentioned that discussions about hobos can carry on if kept to a historical context.

No worries, Mate.

Ed

[Overmod]

gmpullman

Mr. Otte has mentioned that discussions about hobos can carry on if kept to a historical context.

But this isn't really about hobos.  

And it's true that the ban on discussing the hobo thing was to avoid rancor in the community ... which certainly seems to be occurring.  Accordingly I leave the reference to the enhancement of Brakie's question in, because it's part of the answer, but amended the possibly-gratuitous reference that followed so it accords with the TOS as understood.

[gmpullman]

Overmod

But this isn't really about hobos.

My reply was simply to assuage Mr. TF's fears that some imagined taboo had transpired. Steven has been very accommodating in some of the discussions about both hobos and graffiti in recent years.

That's all,

Cheers, Ed

["JaBear"]

Track fiddler

  My thread has a virus or a pest Lock it if you deem necessary  

Chill by Bear, on Flickr

 

[Track fiddler]

 

 

 

 

OK   Chilled with my hot coffee this morning Bear

I was sad and found it quite unfortunate when I heard Stobe the hobo died from his oversized backpack  I wish he had kept the smaller one

 

 

TF

[Overmod]

gmpullman

My reply was simply to assuage Mr. TF's fears that some imagined taboo had transpired.

I know.  It wasn't about you, either.

Steven has been very accommodating in some of the discussions about both hobos and graffiti in recent years.

That doesn't surprise me.  His concern isn't as much with the 'subjects' as with the acrimony bringing them up causes in 'some segments of the community'.

Even historical discussions can go 'over the line' if they romanticize the "lifestyle" or make some part of it attractive to potential young readers.  It was no more romantic than, say, the pirate lifestyle was.  But people looking to sell juvenile literature back in the dime-novel era tried to make it so, and some of that persists over the years.  Sorry if this comes across as negative waves but I think it needs to be established before we move on.

[SeeYou190]

Why does that refrigerated boxcar in Bear's post have so many ice hatches?

-Kevin

[Overmod]

SeeYou190

Why does that refrigerated boxcar in Bear's post have so many ice hatches?

I'll bet it has something to do with frozen-food transportation prior to 1947 or so, when preserving things like Clarence Birdseye's invention correctly might involve a lot of ice and salt and insulation to work.  

I suspect Ed already has this in his collection, but if not he might find it valuable...

[Track fiddler]

SeeYou190

Why does that refrigerated boxcar in Bear's post have so many ice hatches?

-Kevin

 

 

Well the secret if I may, the legend roles North to the farther ends of the Earth to New Zealand.

Winter is fine, they need no hatches but summer it gets hot and then you need quite a bit of dry ice especially when the hatches stick and don't open.

 

Just kidding

 

 

TF

[Track fiddler]

I'm sure that's one for the Bear to answer.  He will wake up and answer when we all hit the rack.

 

 

TF

[Track fiddler]

Double post

[Track fiddler]

gmpullman

 

 

Track fiddler

Knock knock, knock knock, no hobo allowed in the Forum. 

 

 

Mr. Otte has mentioned that discussions about hobos can carry on if kept to a historical context.

No worries, Mate.

Ed

 

 

Thanks Ed

The thread may be at a standstill because no one has a good question.

Maybe you do?

 

 

TF

[gmpullman]

Track fiddler

The thread may be at a standstill because no one has a good question. Maybe you do?

I'll try my luck and toss this one out there:

Monsanto_ACF_enl1 by Edmund, on Flickr

What is special about this car and what commodity was specifically hauled in it?

---

 

Overmod

I suspect Ed already has this in his collection, but if not he might find it valuable...

Thank you, Overmod. I had not seen that document before.

All I could find on the multi-hatch reefer was that it was a Northern Pacific car. The same photo appears in the John H. White Great Yellow Fleet book with no further explanation. As Overmod points out, perhaps the additional ice was needed for frozen foods. Salt was added (as in making ice cream) to lower the temperature, as seen in the photo. The resulting rust hastened the damage to car frames and track structure with all the brine drippings!

Good Luck, Ed 

[Heartland Division CB&Q]

A search of the internet reveals ACFX 1940 was for hauling nitric acid.

 

Question: ...  What is Rule G? 

[Wolf359]

Heartland Division CB&Q

 

Question: ...  What is Rule G? 

 

Rule G prohibits railroad workers from being intoxicated in any way while on the job as well as being in possession of anything intoxicating while on the job.

What year was the first fireless locomotive built?

[Overmod]

Wolf359

What year was the first fireless locomotive built?

I don't know of one earlier than Fowler's Ghost (1861), which was interesting for its technology transfer from a different industry.

The Ghost got around the issue of steam recharging by using heated brick checkerwork instead; as I recall the idea was to provide hot gas or coals to this between tunnel segments, as an early kind of 'thermal flywheel'.  I don't think Fowler understood the use of latent heat in pressurized water completely; he might have understood use of very high pressures (from Perkins) but wouldn't associate that with a large reservoir of heated water as in a normal locomotive...

[Wolf359]

Overmod

 

 

Wolf359

What year was the first fireless locomotive built?

 

 

I don't know of one earlier than Fowler's Ghost (1861), which was interesting for its technology transfer from a different industry.

The Ghost got around the issue of steam recharging by using heated brick checkerwork instead; as I recall the idea was to provide hot gas or coals to this between tunnel segments, as an early kind of 'thermal flywheel'.  I don't think Fowler understood the use of latent heat in pressurized water completely; he might have understood use of very high pressures (from Perkins) but wouldn't associate that with a large reservoir of heated water as in a normal locomotive...

 

That's the earliest I could find any record of as well, so I'd say that's a correct answer. Even though it was considered a failure, I still think it's a shame that they scrapped it. It would have made for an interesting museum piece.

[Overmod]

Far more interesting was the second practicable type of fireless locomotive, developed less than a decade later (we won't count Perkins yet, as he psyched himself out for no real reason in 1864).  This used an approach for producing engine horsepower perhaps tried as far as the 1820s (with a more typical boiler) in the road vehicles Britain taxed and regulated out of existence early.

What was the rather ingenious method used?

[BRAKIE]

Overmod

Accordingly I leave the reference to the enhancement of Brakie's question in, because it's part of the answer, but amended the possibly-gratuitous reference that followed so it accords with the TOS as understood.

Actually nobody knows for sure who J .B. King Esq was or if  was even real.. The story I've always heard  it was two switchmen on the Southern Ry in Cincinnati that signed J.B.King Esq.  

[OldEngineman]

brakie wrote: "And here's one. On boxcars high and flat car low you see his name where ever you go..Who is he?"

(coming to the thread late)... but, that's easy: Bozo Texino.

[Water Level Route]

Overmod

Far more interesting was the second practicable type of fireless locomotive, developed less than a decade later (we won't count Perkins yet, as he psyched himself out for no real reason in 1864).  This used an approach for producing engine horsepower perhaps tried as far as the 1820s (with a more typical boiler) in the road vehicles Britain taxed and regulated out of existence early.

What was the rather ingenious method used?

 

Ammonia?

[gmpullman]

gmpullman

I'll try my luck and toss this one out there: 

What is special about this car and what commodity was specifically hauled in it?

 

Monsanto_ACF by Edmund, on Flickr

---

 

What I thought was unique about this acid tank car was its use of a "fume hood" open on the bottom and the vent holes at the dome that was intended to carry away acid fumes.

---

 

C'est la vie — Ed

[CapnCrunch]

Ed,

Re the Monsanto acid tank car.  I first heard of Monsanto in about 1960 when I saw their exhibit at Disneyland and just assumed it was a modern company. Turns out it was founded in St. Louis in 1901 and one of its earliest products was indeed sulfuric acid.  Then in 1935, Monsanto bought Swann Chemical of Alabama and took over the production of PCBs.  It looks like Monsanto cars will definitely fit in with my 50s era plan.  

Tim

[Overmod]

Water Level Route

Ammonia?

More detail.  There are several ways this was tried...

[Water Level Route]

Overmod

 

 

Water Level Route

Ammonia?

 

 

More detail.  There are several ways this was tried...

 

Must be on the right track, but now you're going to make me work for it!

Taking high pressure liquid ammonia and controlling its transformation into an ambient pressure gas, which essentially drives the cylinders like steam?

[Water Level Route]

So, maybe I won't get an answer from Overmod.  To keep this thread moving, I'll just ask another question:

What is the record for length of railroad track laid by hand in a day, who did it, and when?

[Track fiddler]

April 28th 1869 a record of 10 miles of track where laid in a single day by the Central Pacific crew.

 

If taken into account the first merger that made up Burlington Northern, how many railroads make up today's BNSF and who are they?

 

 

TF

[Overmod]

Water Level Route

Taking high pressure liquid ammonia and controlling its transformation into an ambient pressure gas, which essentially drives the cylinders like steam?

That as I recall is what Gurney's and other road engines did, and I suspect practical ammonia refrigeration may derive from the attempt.

The problem with ammonia as a working fluid, though, is somewhat akin to the problem with using mercury as a working fluid, or some of the early high-power battery chemistries for locomotives as Page did in what I recall was the early 1850s.

If you look up the all-too-brief history of the Lamm cycle you will get a handle on some of how you get around the problem; I suspect another part of this is the extraordinary affinity of water vapor to condense in ammoniated solution -- meaning vastly reduced effective back pressure on a piston motor.

[Water Level Route]

Track fiddler

If taken into account the first merger that made up Burlington Northern, how many railroads make up today's BNSF and who are they?

Funny you should ask this as I recently stumbled upon a BNSF history document available on their website.  This really depends on just what you are asking.  Major railroads that most have likely heard of? In my opinion 6: CB&Q, Frisco, Great Northern, AT&SF, NP, SP&S.  Look on pages 47-48 of their history though, and you will find literally hundreds of names listed.  

https://www.bnsf.com/about-bnsf/our-railroad/pdf/History_and_Legacy.pdf

What was the invention that supposedly inspired the phrase "The Real McCoy" and who was the inventor?

[Wolf359]

Track fiddler

 

If taken into account the first merger that made up Burlington Northern, how many railroads make up today's BNSF and who are they?

 

 

TF

 

The BNSF is made up of seven railroads. First you have the ATSF, then you have Burlington Northern, which was created through the consolidation of the CB&Q, the Great Northern, the Northern Pacific, the Spokane, Portland and Seattle Railway, and the later absorption of the Frisco.

When was the first known 2-4-2 built?

[Overmod]

Wolf359

The BNSF is made up of seven railroads. First you have the ATSF, then you have Burlington Northern, which was created through the consolidation of the CB&Q, the Great Northern, the Northern Pacific, the Spokane, Portland and Seattle Railway, and the later absorption of the Frisco.

This is like a Monty Python Spanish Inquisition skit in reverse.

"Our six railroads are..."

"NO! Our seven railroads are..." <names six and stops> ... "AMONG our railroads are..."

There was a tank 2-4-2 in the Civil War years, but that doesn't really count.  The first real ones are in New Zealand, starting in 1877; the Kiwis seem to be almost perpetually digging these things out of rivers where they were dumped as fill and restoring them to operation.

And I think you mean one of Elijah McCoy's lubricators (he had as many patents as Heinz had kinds of pickles).  

Who designed the first real 4-6-4 (non-tank with the trailing wheels allowing a bigger firebox)?  Who built the first one to run?

[Wolf359]

Overmod

 

 

Wolf359

The BNSF is made up of seven railroads. First you have the ATSF, then you have Burlington Northern, which was created through the consolidation of the CB&Q, the Great Northern, the Northern Pacific, the Spokane, Portland and Seattle Railway, and the later absorption of the Frisco.

 

 

This is like a Monty Python Spanish Inquisition skit in reverse.

"Our six railroads are..."

"NO! Our seven railroads are..." <names six and stops> ... "AMONG our railroads are..."

 

I guess it's safe to assume that both answers are correct? Depending on how you look at it.

Overmod

 

Who designed the first real 4-6-4 (non-tank with the trailing wheels allowing a bigger firebox)?  Who built the first one to run?

 

I believe the first "real" tender locomotive 4-6-4 was built in 1911, in France. The first US 4-6-4 was built in 1927 for the New York Central.

What year was the Vauclain compound introduced?

[Track fiddler]

Wolf359

 

What year was the Vauclain compound introduced?

 

 

1889 by Samuel M. Vauclain

 

And a riddle for you.

What railroad term that has to do with track is also attached to an old west cowboy boot?

 

 

TF

[Overmod]

Wolf359

I believe the first "real" tender locomotive 4-6-4 was built in 1911, in France.

That would be correct... you might want to add more detail, as (in my opinion at least) these were some of the best locomotives designed in Europe up to that time. 

The first US 4-6-4 was built in 1927 for the New York Central.

But that was far from the first US 4-6-4 designed and scheduled to be built, on a railroad not without experience with the type.  Who has the date and details?

What year was the Vauclain compound introduced?

Which one?  Original or balanced?  (More Monty Python comes to mind... involving sparrows, this time)

The original, ingenious one was patented in 1889, and is probably most notable for use within 5 years on what were probably the fastest locomotives in the world at that time (in Atlantic City service)

The balanced-compound approach is, I think, from 1901 or 1902 -- ISTR it had all four cylinders in line abreast, with the common transfer valve passages between adjacent pairs a bit like the 1889 design turned on its side and flattened out -- someone not on a phone can check it.

All this stuff is in the Gairns book from 1907 (the Vauclain tandem compound too) which is downloadable from Google Books.  Anyone even a bit interested in the subject will find it fascinating reading!)

[Wolf359]

Overmod

 

 

Wolf359

I believe the first "real" tender locomotive 4-6-4 was built in 1911, in France.

 

 

That would be correct... you might want to add more detail, as (in my opinion at least) these were some of the best locomotives designed in Europe up to that time. 

 

Can do! The locomotives in question would be the French Nord 3.1101 and 3. 1102, which were built as four cylinder compounds, and surprisingly still exist. Here's a link for some more info on them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_3.1101_and_3.1102

Overmod

 

The first US 4-6-4 was built in 1927 for the New York Central.

 

 

But that was far from the first US 4-6-4 designed and scheduled to be built, on a railroad not without experience with the type.  Who has the date and details?

 

The Milwaukee Road had plans for some earlier 4-6-4s, but I don't know the exact timeline. I do know, however, that financial issues were the cause of the delay.

Overmod

 

What year was the Vauclain compound introduced?

 

 

Which one?  Original or balanced?

The original, ingenious one was patented in 1889, and is probably most notable for use within 5 years on what were probably the fastest locomotives in the world at that time (in Atlantic City service)

The original. 1889 is correct.

[Wolf359]

Track fiddler

 

 

Wolf359

 

What year was the Vauclain compound introduced?

 

 

 

 

 

1889 by Samuel M. Vauclain

 

 

That is correct.

Track fiddler

 

 

And a riddle for you.

What railroad term that has to do with track is also attached to an old west cowboy boot?

 

 

TF

 

That would be spurs, I believe.

What are the two types of dynamic braking?

[Track fiddler]

Track fiddler

 

 

Wolf359

 

What year was the Vauclain compound introduced?

 

 

 

 

 

1889 by Samuel M. Vauclain

 

 

Huh. 

I thaught I addressed the answer to that question first but seemed to be passed by like a wet rag.

Since they don't have the flippy symbol here I'll just have to let that one go then

 

I'm sure I could clean the kitchen with it later though

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Track fiddler]

It takes a longer time to compose a post on a smartphone compared to a computer.

A scenario of two posts crossing in the mail.

That's Ok,  I'm sure I'm not a sole proprietor of a good sense of humor and I'm glad I have one these days

 

Spurs is correct Wolf

 

 

TF

[Overmod]

Composed on a phone, so repeated without warning and taking minutes to erase.  At least there are no long picture URLs so I can actually get to the edit button to fix things.

[Overmod]

Track fiddler

I thaught I addressed the answer to that question first but seemed to be passed by like a wet rag.

You did.  Then he answered you.  And posed the current question: what are the two types of dynamic braking.
(They are not grousing and whining)

I'm assuming he means resistive and regenerative; both involving connection of the motors to act as 'generators' -- the former dissipating it as heat, the latter (for electrics) conditioning it properly and 'putting it back into the line' for reducing outside generation requirement or charging wayside storage.  If not, ignore following question.

What is a water brake and how does it work (there are actually a couple of answers)?

[mvlandsw]

gmpullman

 

Track fiddler

The thread may be at a standstill because no one has a good question. Maybe you do?

 

 

I'll try my luck and toss this one out there:

Monsanto_ACF_enl1 by Edmund, on Flickr

What is special about this car and what commodity was specifically hauled in it?

---

 

 

 

 

  

 

Ambroid made a kit for a wood shrouded version of this car. I took a picture of a UTLX metal shrouded version on the UP in Topeka, Kansas in 1969.

What is the purpose of the shroud?

[Track fiddler]

Good evening

Well it seems to be Friday's Eve.  I feel I should be a good host and step in to Thank everyone for their participation in this thread.

I think it was fun because even though everyone could research answers to questions being asked it was still a learning experience.  

I don't know about everyone else but I have learned things here that I normally wouldn't have researched.  I did because they were brought up here to everyone's attention creating curiosity to find the answer.

So again Thank You for everyone's participation that made it fun

 

 

TF

[gmpullman]

mvlandsw

What is the purpose of the shroud?

Hi,

Go to the top of this page. I posted a description of the car and the purported design of the shroud. Many of the acid fumes I've been around seemed to be heavier than air and hung low to the ground so I question the effectiveness of those little vent holes in the dome covering.

Cheers, Ed

[Overmod]

mvlandsw

What is the purpose of the shroud?

Wasn't it established this car was in nitric acid service?

At one time concentrated HNO3 was supposed to be kept at low temperature to limit dissociation in transport.  Modern regulations call for the tank integrity to be tested by overpressure (of about 15psi) and detection of leaks with ammonia-water spray (forms white ammonium nitrate fog)  

Modern practice also calls for no connections in the tank below liquid level - it is unloaded by pressurizing the tank and taking the acid through a riser pipe, like spray cleaner to the nozzle.

I don't see any such arrangements on the car in question, which leads me to wonder if we shouldn't check to be sure of the service. 

[Wolf359]

Overmod

 

 

 

I'm assuming he means resistive and regenerative; both involving connection of the motors to act as 'generators' -- the former dissipating it as heat, the latter (for electrics) conditioning it properly and 'putting it back into the line' for reducing outside generation requirement or charging wayside storage. 

 

That is correct.

 

[gmpullman]

Overmod

I don't see any such arrangements on the car in question, which leads me to wonder if we shouldn't check to be sure of the service.

I get the feeling the car is in nitric acid service.

Monsanto_acid_edited-1 by Edmund, on Flickr

---

Monsanto_ACF_dome by Edmund, on Flickr

 

I thought it would be neat to pose a question with a companion photo, then follow up with a description but I missed the mark, it would seem.

 

Sorry, Ed

 

[Overmod]

What I note is that the tank is aluminum (with riveted seams, triple-riveted as in boiler practice) but the casing is mild steel.  That suggests not only shrouding to control fumes but some protection against knocks or damage to the relatively soft tank.  I wonder how they calked the internal seams in the tank.  (Or how the bracketing between the aluminum and steel was made to handle risk of dissimilar-metal corrosion...)

The more I think about this, the more I could swear I remember a story about these being a disaster of some sort in practice... the idea being that the concentrated acid would quickly passivate the interior and exposed structure, but vibration and elevated temperature in service causing failure and SCC.  There were additional studies done when RFNA began to be attractive in rocket propulsion (leading to use of HF of all things as an inhibitor).

[gmpullman]

Overmod

 (Or how the bracketing between the aluminum and steel was made to handle risk of dissimilar-metal corrosion...)

Well, I believe the article did say it was experimental. 

       Ed

[Overmod]

gmpullman

 

Overmod

 (Or how the bracketing between the aluminum and steel was made to handle risk of dissimilar-metal corrosion...)

Well, I believe the article did say it was experimental.

Yes, and one of the very first things the designers would likely have done for a mild steel shell on aluminum tank structure would be galvanic isolation... the question not being 'whether' but 'how'.