rrinker He's running a Class A railroad in 1954, the big guys like that certainly didn't slap a coat of paint over an old scheme and go with it, not like a modern railroad picking up someone's cast-offs to build a roster. Black patches with new reporting marks stenciled on were not a thing for the major railroads in the 50's. --Randy
He's running a Class A railroad in 1954, the big guys like that certainly didn't slap a coat of paint over an old scheme and go with it, not like a modern railroad picking up someone's cast-offs to build a roster. Black patches with new reporting marks stenciled on were not a thing for the major railroads in the 50's.
--Randy
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Sometimes I run "specials" using demonstrator paint schemes or other special situation events:
EMD_Demo2 by Edmund, on Flickr
UP_4141_SD70sm by Edmund, on Flickr
IMG_5491_fix by Edmund, on Flickr
Rapido is planning to do the American Freedom Train scheme (could cars soon follow?) If I weren't already buying a pair of Nickel Plate and New York Central PAs I might have opted for one of the AFT ones and have an excuse for running it on just about any railroad.
Cheers, Ed
Just yesterday I was looking at old photos of B&O equipment taken in the 50's. It was easy enought to find some dirty locomotives, it was impossible to find a rusty one..........
And surely no painted over schemes showing thru.
Sheldon
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
The Stratton and Gillette runs too tight a ship to repaint engines? Wow! Around here we think it's posh if His Nibs gives us a bucket of Kmart paint and a roller! We have to scratch out the old road name and write "BTR" with a crayon!
SeeYou190 BigDaddy Howard Zane, Ken Patterson, Dan Glasure and Al Kalmbach seem to have done OK combining a hobby and a business. I know there are plenty of similar examples, but I won't be one of them. I simply cannot combine business and pleasure. After I became a professional engine builder my work on my Camaro 1/4 miler come to a complete stop and I have not been back to a drag strip since. -Kevin
BigDaddy Howard Zane, Ken Patterson, Dan Glasure and Al Kalmbach seem to have done OK combining a hobby and a business.
I know there are plenty of similar examples, but I won't be one of them. I simply cannot combine business and pleasure.
After I became a professional engine builder my work on my Camaro 1/4 miler come to a complete stop and I have not been back to a drag strip since.
-Kevin
I understand how you feel Kevin.
I think I could do something like run a small direct sales manufacturing company in the hobby and not let that effect my hobby time/activity.
But I could never get back into the retail side in store, or get involved in "speculative" marketing, or train show vending. That would drive me out of the hobby for sure.
BigDaddyHoward Zane, Ken Patterson, Dan Glasure and Al Kalmbach seem to have done OK combining a hobby and a business.
Living the dream.
I did not buy a second SMD caboose, though I thought about it alot. I had no idea they would appreciate in price that fast, nor did I know when they would run out of stock.
Howard Zane, Ken Patterson, Dan Glasure and Al Kalmbach seem to have done OK combining a hobby and a business.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
SeeYou190 BigDaddy A little over a year ago I bought one of the last Spring Mills B&O Caboose for $60 at Timonium. They are now selling on Ebay for $130-$175 so a "rare" undec Rapido PA might appreciate more than your Apple stock, percentage wise. I thought of ordering six just to have the ultra-rare models. Then I remembered this is a hobby, and I need to never let it be a business for me. I have done that a little in the past, and it leads to non-enjoyment. -Kevin
BigDaddy A little over a year ago I bought one of the last Spring Mills B&O Caboose for $60 at Timonium. They are now selling on Ebay for $130-$175 so a "rare" undec Rapido PA might appreciate more than your Apple stock, percentage wise.
I thought of ordering six just to have the ultra-rare models.
Then I remembered this is a hobby, and I need to never let it be a business for me. I have done that a little in the past, and it leads to non-enjoyment.
Well, it sure would be interesting to know the status of my preorder with ToyTrainHeaven?
Kevin, do you have the part number of the version you preordered?
I still find the requirement to order six pieces confusing and unclear. Does this have something to do with ordering them direct from Rapido rather than thrua dealer like ToyTrainHeaven?
Maybe at the end of the order window they will tell ToyTrainHeaven they have to order extras of those part numbers to get them made and shipped?
Kevin Email me if you would.
BigDaddyA little over a year ago I bought one of the last Spring Mills B&O Caboose for $60 at Timonium. They are now selling on Ebay for $130-$175 so a "rare" undec Rapido PA might appreciate more than your Apple stock, percentage wise.
Are there more forum members besides Sheldon and Kevin that could combine an order?
A little over a year ago I bought one of the last Spring Mills B&O Caboose for $60 at Timonium. They are now selling on Ebay for $130-$175 so a "rare" undec Rapido PA might appreciate more than your Apple stock, percentage wise.
SeeYou190 richhotrain I don't see anything in that statement to indicate that he called or emailed Jason as a follow up. Apparently, you missed that. Rich, The email that Rapido sent explaining the decision to require a minimum order of six to produce and ship the undecorated PA2/PB2 was very thorough, explanatory, appologetic, and professional. They went into a good amount of information about the manufacturing process and how they need to interfere with the normal production to produce an undecorated model. The email is way too long to share here, and I am not sure it was meant for distribution beyond the intended recipient(s). The email answered or addressed any questions I would have had, and saw no reason to follow up any further with Rapido about the order. -Kevin
richhotrain I don't see anything in that statement to indicate that he called or emailed Jason as a follow up. Apparently, you missed that.
Rich, The email that Rapido sent explaining the decision to require a minimum order of six to produce and ship the undecorated PA2/PB2 was very thorough, explanatory, appologetic, and professional.
They went into a good amount of information about the manufacturing process and how they need to interfere with the normal production to produce an undecorated model.
The email is way too long to share here, and I am not sure it was meant for distribution beyond the intended recipient(s).
The email answered or addressed any questions I would have had, and saw no reason to follow up any further with Rapido about the order.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrainI don't see anything in that statement to indicate that he called or emailed Jason as a follow up. Apparently, you missed that.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless What's the fuss about undecorated models anyway? Hasn't anybody heard of 90% alcohol? Here is the fuss, it is hard or impossible to unglue detail parts that are better left off during masking and painting/decaling of multi color paint schemes with complex decals. It is often hard to remove glass inserts without damage. AND, if I'm going to spend $300 or $400 on a high detail model, I don't think it is too much to ask to purchase one where the body is an undecorated kit rather than fully assembled and painted. All the Proto2000 undecorated models I have purchased over the last 20 years (about 40 undecorated locos just from this one brand) came with all the various detail part options not yet installed. Same with Intermountain, and Highliner body kits for Athearn Genesis F units, and many others, rolling stock and locos alike. And spending some number of hours stripping a model is time lost on other projects.....after paying top dollar for a quality model. Understand this, I buy RTR model locomotives that are lettered B&O, C&O or WESTERN MARYLAND rather than paint and letter them myself (assuming someone makes what I want), but for my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL I am the paint shop. I'm not stripping models. Sheldon
Doughless What's the fuss about undecorated models anyway? Hasn't anybody heard of 90% alcohol?
What's the fuss about undecorated models anyway? Hasn't anybody heard of 90% alcohol?
Here is the fuss, it is hard or impossible to unglue detail parts that are better left off during masking and painting/decaling of multi color paint schemes with complex decals. It is often hard to remove glass inserts without damage.
AND, if I'm going to spend $300 or $400 on a high detail model, I don't think it is too much to ask to purchase one where the body is an undecorated kit rather than fully assembled and painted.
All the Proto2000 undecorated models I have purchased over the last 20 years (about 40 undecorated locos just from this one brand) came with all the various detail part options not yet installed. Same with Intermountain, and Highliner body kits for Athearn Genesis F units, and many others, rolling stock and locos alike.
And spending some number of hours stripping a model is time lost on other projects.....after paying top dollar for a quality model.
Understand this, I buy RTR model locomotives that are lettered B&O, C&O or WESTERN MARYLAND rather than paint and letter them myself (assuming someone makes what I want), but for my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL I am the paint shop.
I'm not stripping models.
Just speaking as a freelancer, the complications created by a complex paint scheme goes into the desire to have a certain paint scheme in the first place. For example, a black dip scheme can be done with every part still on the loco.
If a modeler is looking to represent a specific prototype scheme that may be fancy, and, that isn't already being offered by Rapido, that narrows the market quite a bit.
We're talking about a market for painting a transisition era Alco passenger locomotive in fancy freelanced paint schemes. Can't imagine there is a whole lot of demand for that.
Its gonna be expensive.
- Douglas
Paul3 There is a miscommunication going on that not everyone is picking up on. Rapido, almost certainly, isn't saying that one has to purchase six Undec's in order to get two models, they are probably saying that each person that ordered an Undec would have to order 3 times as many in order for them to run any Undec's at all. In the past, Rapido has said they need at least 200 units in pre-orders for them to run any one paint scheme (this was said for the original run of RDC's). I assume Undec's are no different (it may be higher due to the added cost of making Undec's). If that 200 number per-scheme is still the case, and they need three times the amount currently pre-ordered, then Rapido may have only received orders for around 66 Undec PA's.
There is a miscommunication going on that not everyone is picking up on. Rapido, almost certainly, isn't saying that one has to purchase six Undec's in order to get two models, they are probably saying that each person that ordered an Undec would have to order 3 times as many in order for them to run any Undec's at all.
In the past, Rapido has said they need at least 200 units in pre-orders for them to run any one paint scheme (this was said for the original run of RDC's). I assume Undec's are no different (it may be higher due to the added cost of making Undec's).
If that 200 number per-scheme is still the case, and they need three times the amount currently pre-ordered, then Rapido may have only received orders for around 66 Undec PA's.
Yes. Its the break-even point. We don't know what it is for Rapido undecs but apparently the number of order's they got for undec PA's, 6 is the number that each person who ordered PAs, so far, would have to buy in order for Rapido to reach its break even point of say. 200.
200/6 means they so far have orders for undec PAs from 33 people all over the world. That's just a rough guess based upon some numbers being thrown out. (and that 200 may include a small profit that makes it worth the effort.)
Unless Jason is willing to make undec models for Kevin and Sheldon, there is zero upside in him getting involved with explaining business decisions on a public forum.
If they had hundreds or thousands of orders for the undecorated models it wouldn't be a problem. Obviously they don't. Should he tell us and all his competitors how many orders he had? I wouldn't.
Rapido is not a bait and switch operation. No doubt they expected more orders than they got.
Tinplate Toddler richhotrain By calling or emailing Jason, Kevin could get a direct, detailed response and report it back to us. He did that, hence his cancellation of his pre-order and this thread! Why should he be going round in circles? Apparentrly, you missed that!
richhotrain By calling or emailing Jason, Kevin could get a direct, detailed response and report it back to us.
He did that, hence his cancellation of his pre-order and this thread! Why should he be going round in circles? Apparentrly, you missed that!
SeeYou190 I placed my reservation for a set of Alco PA2/PB2 locomotives, undecorated, directly with Rapido trains a few weeks ago. Today they sent me an email saying that if I really wanted the models undecorated, I would need to order six of them. Well, I have no use for six, and I never will. I cancelled the reservation.
I placed my reservation for a set of Alco PA2/PB2 locomotives, undecorated, directly with Rapido trains a few weeks ago.
Today they sent me an email saying that if I really wanted the models undecorated, I would need to order six of them. Well, I have no use for six, and I never will.
I cancelled the reservation.
I see two issues here.
One, he got a response to his pre-order saying that there is a minimum of six. No other explanation. If I, or Kevin, wanted a single set bad enough, call or email Jason and pursue it a little. Is Rapido six short of a total minimum production. Is Kevin's pre-order the only one? What if Kevin pre-orders six sets and no one else pre-orders? Will he get another pre-order cancellation?
Two, Rapido should have included a note on the website that there would be a minimum of six on any pre-order. Call or email Jason and tell him that.
richhotrainBy calling or emailing Jason, Kevin could get a direct, detailed response and report it back to us.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
A few more thoughts:
I am amused at some of the comments that suggest that the Rapido model will be light years ahead of the Proto2000 model.
The Proto2000 model was light years ahead of the old Athearn blue box model, and likely better than most of the brass offerings to that point.
The Rapido model will be nicer than the Proto model, but, by how much? And will those differences be noticable in operation on a layout?
I suspect the Rapido model will get slightly into the point of diminishing returns....
mlehman Rapido variations oftentimes include, not just additional parts, but variations in the shell itself. I'm pretty sure they don't send all the variant shells, just one, but never having bought a Rapido undec, someone else will have to confirm that. That's likely why the 4 versions were listed under PA/PB, it's not just A units versus B units. I think Kevin has taken this better than several of the commentators. If nothing else, thios episode shows Rapido's dedication to accuracy and quality, something which they don't seem to want slip just because they could sell a few more locos. You have to respect that, whatever your thoughts on this specific situation.
Rapido variations oftentimes include, not just additional parts, but variations in the shell itself. I'm pretty sure they don't send all the variant shells, just one, but never having bought a Rapido undec, someone else will have to confirm that. That's likely why the 4 versions were listed under PA/PB, it's not just A units versus B units.
I think Kevin has taken this better than several of the commentators. If nothing else, thios episode shows Rapido's dedication to accuracy and quality, something which they don't seem to want slip just because they could sell a few more locos.
You have to respect that, whatever your thoughts on this specific situation.
Yes Mike, there are several different shells covering differences like dynamic brakes, number boards, PA1 vs PA2, etc.
20 years ago Proto2000 covered most of this pretty well with 4 different undecorated A units and two different undecorated B units if I recall. They did not address the PA2 variations.
B uint variations are fewer, even taking into account the PA2.
Respectfully, I don't know if you consider me one of the "commentators not taking this so well" but in case you missed it, I have an undecorated Rapido PA set on preorder as well. My preorder is placed with ToyTrainHeaven, not directly with Rapido.
I have not recieved any info from them about the item being canceled as of yet.
I'm taking it just fine, I can live without these locos, I already own 4 PA/PB locos I am perfectly happy with.
As I said, I will spend my $400 elsewhere on something else on my "extra" list.
And yes, to me it is just another case of preorder vaporware.
Ulrich, I get all that but it doesn't really address my reply.
By calling or emailing Jason, Kevin could get a direct, detailed response and report it back to us.
As for speculation, this entire thread is speculation.
richhotrainask him why he cancelled your pre-order and what would it take to revive it.
Kevin cancelled the order after he was told that he has to order a minimum of six!
richhotrainstop all of this speculation
There is no speculation about that whatsoever. Rapido Trains has announced an undecorated version of the PA in A or A+B configuration on their website, but missed out on informing the potential customers about a minimum order quantity or just simply invite dealer inquieries.
I'm surprised that Jason has not chimed in here. IIRC, Jason follows this forum.
Kevin, call or email Jason and ask him why he cancelled your pre-order and what would it take to revive it. Let's get his reasoning and end all of this speculation.
rrinker BATMAN If you read Rapidos newsletters and/or watch their videos they have mentioned in the past how many hours labour goes into some of each product. In their videos, they show the painting process and all that is involved. They also show the staff applying all those teeny tiny parts. If you do not paint the product and give you the parts in a bag I would think there would be some savings involved. Here's the thing - a painted model has one set of detail parts. Specific to that road name (and sometimes even specific to a road number, Rapido does things like that. Maybe 201 has icicle breakers on the roof and 202 didn;t. Things like that. With an undec - well, they have dozens of different detail parts. I'll bet they give you them all, to install whichever ones you want when you paint your specific model. So an undec actually costs MORE than a painted one. 3 horns, 2 bells, 2 types of winterization hatches, plain, single, or dual steam generator (maybe even a HEP version). ANd so on. I doubt the DC/DCC made a difference, the DC models get a circuit board that the decoder plugs into for the DCC version, it's not completely different internals. But PA1 and PA2, and then the matchign B units. I'll bet they got enough orders to make them - if everyone ordered the same variation. But if they had say 250 orders total, and 30% were for PA2s and the rest were PA1s - not enough of either model. If 200 is the magic number. --Randy
BATMAN If you read Rapidos newsletters and/or watch their videos they have mentioned in the past how many hours labour goes into some of each product. In their videos, they show the painting process and all that is involved. They also show the staff applying all those teeny tiny parts. If you do not paint the product and give you the parts in a bag I would think there would be some savings involved.
If you read Rapidos newsletters and/or watch their videos they have mentioned in the past how many hours labour goes into some of each product. In their videos, they show the painting process and all that is involved. They also show the staff applying all those teeny tiny parts. If you do not paint the product and give you the parts in a bag I would think there would be some savings involved.
Here's the thing - a painted model has one set of detail parts. Specific to that road name (and sometimes even specific to a road number, Rapido does things like that. Maybe 201 has icicle breakers on the roof and 202 didn;t. Things like that.
With an undec - well, they have dozens of different detail parts. I'll bet they give you them all, to install whichever ones you want when you paint your specific model. So an undec actually costs MORE than a painted one. 3 horns, 2 bells, 2 types of winterization hatches, plain, single, or dual steam generator (maybe even a HEP version). ANd so on.
I doubt the DC/DCC made a difference, the DC models get a circuit board that the decoder plugs into for the DCC version, it's not completely different internals. But PA1 and PA2, and then the matchign B units. I'll bet they got enough orders to make them - if everyone ordered the same variation. But if they had say 250 orders total, and 30% were for PA2s and the rest were PA1s - not enough of either model. If 200 is the magic number.
From what I know about the process, I would think it is about a wash cost wise, assuming the run of undecorated locos is large enough. The injection molding of those extra parts costs nothing. In fact it is likely every possible part is made for every loco made just to keep the die tooling and injection work simple.
But they do have to be bagged up, that takes time just like installing them.
Point remains, back in the day LifeLike had deep pockets, and could, and did, simply have enough product made to get to the lowest production cost. I was in their Baltimore warehouse on several occasions........trust me, 5,000 or 10,000 PA's were just a drop in the bucket.
And parts, you just called the service department, gave them the part numbers, and they put the stuff in the mail, usually the whole parts bag that contained that item, especially the really small stuff.
When the axle gears started cracking, all you had to do was ask, they sent out bags full for free.
Did they have every detail variation on every loco? No. But they did pretty good.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
drcieselHuh? How did you buy Rapido undecorated Alco PAs when they have yet to be produced??
No, but I have four undecorated Athearn PA/PB locomotives, and two undecorated Proto 2000 E8s. So, my diesel passenger fleet is OK. I would have liked the showcase quality of the Rapido models, but that is not to be.
Bayfield Transfer RailwayCNW bought some E-8s from Kansas City Southern. They painted right over the KCS markings, and you could see them clearly under the yellow CNW paint.SO buy some damn PA units and paint them, and if the earlier paint scheme is still visible, YOU ARE BEING 100% PROTOTYPICAL!
The STRATTON AND GILLETTE runs a much tighter ship than that. Such sloppiness would never be tolerated.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhat you don't know about Kevin is that he paints and decals EVERY piece of rolling stock on his layout.
Yes, all my fleet of over 150 freight cars, twenty locomotives, and (so far) four passengers cars have all been painted by me from mostly undecorated kits.
These are the only exceptions:
IMXW boxcar decorated for the GORRE AND DAHPETID
IMXW boxcar decorated for the DELTA LINES
2 Fox Valley boxcars decorated for the MIDLAND ROAD
DoughlessWhat's the fuss about undecorated models anyway? Hasn't anybody heard of 90% alcohol?
That just isn't something I am comfortable attempting on a $400.00 set of locomotives with all those beautiful and fragile details.
Stripping the paint off a Walthers 70 foot Mount Vernon flatcar... Sure, no problem.
rrinkerWith an undec - well, they have dozens of different detail parts. I'll bet they give you them all, to install whichever ones you want when you paint your specific model. So an undec actually costs MORE than a painted one. 3 horns, 2 bells, 2 types of winterization hatches, plain, single, or dual steam generator (maybe even a HEP version). ANd so on.
Yes, Life-Like did this with many of the proto 2000 undecorated locmotives.
This is true: I wanted my SD7 not to have dynamic brakes. I searched high and low, and every SD7 I found was marked "Undecorated W/Dynamic Brakes". Finally I gave up, and just figured I would settle for dynamic brakes on the model. In the parts bag inside the box was the non-dynamic brake hood insert, so it included everything needed for either version. No where on the box did it say this. I was very happy with the surprise.