xboxtravis7992sa lot of millenials are earning low wages... perhaps its because many of us are still in school?
If you're still in school, you're not a Millennial. That's Gen Z.
The oldest millenials are 40. We're well into adulthood and they've already classified the children of the millenials as Alpha. A lot of us are already putting kids in high school.
The times we live in have never been better and never been worse. Young people in my days didn´t have much money to spend on a hobby or even the time for it. They were busy starting their own lives, usually on a tight budget, even with a degree of an elite school in their pockets. Anybody thinking that young graduates start their career on a top salary has spent way too much time watching the idiot box. It has never been that way and it will most likely never be that way. To climb a ladder, you have to start at the bottom. Tough luck, if you have not received an education with left you with skills needed in business. Than you have to start crawling towards the ladder before you can climb it.
I sometimes have the feeling that the "instant gratification" generation has lost any sense for some basic facts of life, one of which is earning comes before spending.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
xboxtravis7992 a. Yes a lot of millenials are earning low wages... perhaps its because many of us are still in school? Seems most of my friends who have graduated are doing pretty good. Don't tell me about student debt or people taking wimpy "useless liberal arts degrees," I don't think me or my fellow mechanical engineering students would take that well.
a. Yes a lot of millenials are earning low wages... perhaps its because many of us are still in school? Seems most of my friends who have graduated are doing pretty good. Don't tell me about student debt or people taking wimpy "useless liberal arts degrees," I don't think me or my fellow mechanical engineering students would take that well.
I didn't say anything about student debt, or about the endless production of degrees in the humanities. I do think it's a problem, and a huge ethical failure for universities, but...I did not mention it. Yet, if you ask those who have those problems, you'll find that they are disappointed in the results, and in the burdens they bring. For example, how do they repay their $40K in student loans when they earn minimum wages? Maybe joining a hobby would help to take the sting out of it.
xboxtravis7992 b. Yes I like food. Don't you too? But my physical hobbies are not neglected. I spend plenty on railroading and other hobbies like book collecting and Lego collecting; and still have the ability to buy digital media like video games. No, I can't sink $45,000 into a basement empire and $20,000 into a live steam locomotive right now. Could you do such when you were in your 20's? Believe it or not, YouTube is a free service... and a subscription set of Netflix, Disney+, Hulu, and Amazon Prime is probably still cheaper than your cable plan which is full of channels you don't ever watch.
I have all of that, and a large CD collection, and cameras, and had a telescope until recently. None of it came all at once. But, I had my first train set when I was 10, and was always fascinated by trains, especially steam locomotives. Few of today's youth will get much exposure to trains. It's hard to develop an interest in something when you have little affiliation or history with it. I won't say nobody develops interests unrelated to their youthful experiences, just that it's more unlikely.
xboxtravis7992 Also... in a railroading forum.. What is wrong with taking transit? If I lived closer to it I would take it more often, especially the vast network of commuter rail in my area. But I still drive a car, probably put 400+ miles on it a week.
Also... in a railroading forum.. What is wrong with taking transit? If I lived closer to it I would take it more often, especially the vast network of commuter rail in my area. But I still drive a car, probably put 400+ miles on it a week.
Nothing wrong with transit, particularly when that's the only show in town. For so many millenials, that's it, and they have little interest in cars. Their politics and eco-sense would logically dim their ardor for POMVs anyway, and I wouldn't disagree with them. We have too many cars the same reason we have too many people. My point was to follow on to having no or little disposable income. Having a car would have to be a pipe dream under those circumstances.
xboxtravis7992As for the house... tell it to my sister and her husband in their house. Or one of my best high school friends who bought a brand new house. Turns out, we are in a housing market struggle here in Utah; most millenials are struggling to get in a house simply because they can't build them fast enough.
Where I live, they go for $1.2M on average. The building market here is very robust, but most of it is fueled by high real estate turnover, speculation, and offshore (I'm pointing across the Pacific) money. Millenials who are not engineers, doctors, or real estate tycoons can't afford them.
xboxtravis7992 Besides, what would be so wrong with inheriting someone elses home if that is a better situation? Many familys internationally live in intergenerational homes, is that such a sin to do such in America? Does the American Dream require throwing away the homes of our family so we can seek out and buy the next biggest thing on the market, like some generational keeping up with the Jones's? I remember encountering up to three or four generations in some families in Argentina living in the same house. I'd say that is a constant in many parts of Latin America and perhaps Europe or Asia too.
Besides, what would be so wrong with inheriting someone elses home if that is a better situation? Many familys internationally live in intergenerational homes, is that such a sin to do such in America? Does the American Dream require throwing away the homes of our family so we can seek out and buy the next biggest thing on the market, like some generational keeping up with the Jones's? I remember encountering up to three or four generations in some families in Argentina living in the same house. I'd say that is a constant in many parts of Latin America and perhaps Europe or Asia too.
Nothing wrong with it at all. I meant that one must wait. No money, no funny. Toy trains are going to be well down the list...don't you think? As for multi-generational living under one roof, if it's done out of necessity there, it might be the case here. And that is what we're discussing...necessity. Toy trains aren't a necessity. And they'll stay that way until other priorities are met, such as paying off that $40K debt, building that 401K, and maybe paying for a roof for mom's house.
xboxtravis7992d. So then what are "influencers" like Luke Towan doing? Do I need to point out how many railfans and model railroaders are sharing the hobby on YouTube? That has a strong affect on this hobby; maybe not on this forum, but with most of my friends I can attest to that.
If there is such a thing as virtual model trains via youtube, I suppose that's a viable alternative. It'll never be like the real thing.
richhotrainThe younger kids aren’t as interested as they used to be.
There's a lot of younger kids in the hobby but,they shop on line so they can buy more with their hobby money. Sadly not many bother to attend train shows because of the cost to get in and buy at near full price for new cars and locomotives.
I'm retired and I can't afford to pay full price at a hobby shop so,to get more bang for my hobby money I shop on line.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
It has nothing to do with interests, but it does economy. Nothing new here.
The world is always changing. We can't stop that. When I was young I had no interest in model railroading. I didn't even know it existed. Even if I was interested, my parents barely kept food in our stomach and clothes on our back. Hobbies are not a necessity in life and never will be.
You can't say that the change in youth culture is what's causing the small mom and pop stores to close. It's the parents and older generation controlling the money and spending. The issue is that it costs so much more to survive today than it did 30 or 40 years ago. People didn't have internet bills, cell phone bills, cable bills, etc. Also we spend a lot more on healthcare and medicine compared to years past.
The plain and simple fact is that it costs so much to exist today, we have to save every penny we can to go towards something else. This is why Walmart thrived and we rely on China and imports so much. No simple solution to turn this around. Not looking to turn this into politics. So let's leave it at that.
Ed
Semi newbie HO scale modeler coming from the O scale world
Scott Adams (Dilbert) had a podcast. He was saying earlier this week that our attention span has shrunk since the cell phone
Movies were always hit or miss. Maybe 1 out of 10 would be good, and now he never goes to a movie. He can watch all sorts of videos on his phone, watching a 30 minute sitcom on TV seems like a major time commitment to him. My TV watching is local news, business programming and sports. I haven't watched a sitcom in years.
Adams 62. So it's not just millenials that are addicted to their cell phones. We went out to dinner and there was a family of 8. All looked old enough to drive. 5/8 were on their cell phones. You don't get that instant gratification from model railroading.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
richg1998I have seen the shop shrink the past ten years.
Yea, well, you'll have that.
Mike
My You Tube
In typical milennial fashion, all I can say is "Okay boomer."Two replies in and the thread has turned into another PHONE BAD, KIDS STUPID argument in spite of Jim's best efforts. All of the economic problems that push my generation away from expensive permanent hobbies are the fault of the generations that came previously. You made the world, we're only adapting to what you did to us.On the topic of hobby shops - adaptation isn't too hard. One local store expanded to hosting train-themed parties, and that did very well for them. Another is only three years old and doing excellently because they do about 90% of their sales through their website. People tend to think they're a bigger company than they actually are because of this, but it keeps the locals happy because there is actually a store that keeps things in stock. The root cause of hobby shop closures, in spite of what many in this forum whine about, is not the "younger generation," it's the owners either refusing to change their operating practices, or simply just retiring due to old age.The hobby is changing. Not dying. Young people are definitely interested. But because of the economy (don't lie to us - it's not doing any better for those of us only recently entering the job market from college), if we can't afford large layouts and brass locomotives and 50-mile drives to the closest hobby store lost somewhere in the suburbs, we turn to other means of satisfying our interest: digital simulators, a single annual railfanning trip to another state, or RPM meets where the return of satisfaction is high without the investment in physical space that "normal" model railroading requires.
selector riogrande5761 Noting the comments of the retiring owner, they seem a bit out-of-touch. Blame the closing on kids attached to there phones and interests changing. IMO, easy straw-men to knock down. Yes, times are changing and the way people shop is changing too. If the guy is too old or mentally too old to adapt to the modern market trends which is online shopping, then maybe it's time for him to thow in the towel. But same can be said for other brick and mortar operations. Adapt or die. Horse and buggy gave way to automobiles too. I hate to fall into the trap (at least, it's almost always a trap) of sweeping generalizations because the more nuanced analysis is usually the more accurate. However: a. the millenials and younger are doing less shopping because they aren't very successful at gaining a 'living' wage. The market these days is the service industry, and that's for people earning $75K an up who can afford to pay for those services. The youth of today are earning minimum wage, or a few bucks more. So...; b. On what do they spend their disposable income (let's not get into the still-living-in-mom's-basement stuff.)? Food. Delivered increasingly. That doesn't come cheaply. Skip the Dishes. Data plans. New smartphone every 18 months when their provider sends them an email saying they can get the latest-but-one for about $180. They don't buy cars, they take transit, and they don't save for a house. They expect that mom will bequeath her house to them in time; c. Meanwhile, at the other end of the life-span, many of us have begun the dying off of the early boomers, and certainly their parents are either dead or within three or four years of their ends. It's a dwindling market; d. Those making a good wage are comparatively few, and their tastes are changing. Their crack phones and tablets take up much of their disposable time. They like the fads that 'influencers' on bitchute and youtube tell them they're missing unless they hop on board. Intermittent fasting, full keto, 'clean' keto, meaning almost doubling up on their food budgets and costing them more time cooking (I know, seems to run counter to my earlier point about Skip the Dishes, but the group isn't homogeneous. What crosses between groups is their spending, and it isn't on hobbies.) I don't think there's so much of a straw man there. It's true that, just like our kids, we've taken to ordering things on line. It's true, hobby shops that don't fall in line have found themselves increasingly in dire straits. But, to say it's solely due to a failure to adopt on-line services is missing at least half of the picture.
riogrande5761 Noting the comments of the retiring owner, they seem a bit out-of-touch. Blame the closing on kids attached to there phones and interests changing. IMO, easy straw-men to knock down. Yes, times are changing and the way people shop is changing too. If the guy is too old or mentally too old to adapt to the modern market trends which is online shopping, then maybe it's time for him to thow in the towel. But same can be said for other brick and mortar operations. Adapt or die. Horse and buggy gave way to automobiles too.
Noting the comments of the retiring owner, they seem a bit out-of-touch. Blame the closing on kids attached to there phones and interests changing. IMO, easy straw-men to knock down.
Yes, times are changing and the way people shop is changing too. If the guy is too old or mentally too old to adapt to the modern market trends which is online shopping, then maybe it's time for him to thow in the towel. But same can be said for other brick and mortar operations. Adapt or die. Horse and buggy gave way to automobiles too.
I hate to fall into the trap (at least, it's almost always a trap) of sweeping generalizations because the more nuanced analysis is usually the more accurate. However:
a. the millenials and younger are doing less shopping because they aren't very successful at gaining a 'living' wage. The market these days is the service industry, and that's for people earning $75K an up who can afford to pay for those services. The youth of today are earning minimum wage, or a few bucks more. So...;
b. On what do they spend their disposable income (let's not get into the still-living-in-mom's-basement stuff.)? Food. Delivered increasingly. That doesn't come cheaply. Skip the Dishes. Data plans. New smartphone every 18 months when their provider sends them an email saying they can get the latest-but-one for about $180. They don't buy cars, they take transit, and they don't save for a house. They expect that mom will bequeath her house to them in time;
c. Meanwhile, at the other end of the life-span, many of us have begun the dying off of the early boomers, and certainly their parents are either dead or within three or four years of their ends. It's a dwindling market;
d. Those making a good wage are comparatively few, and their tastes are changing. Their crack phones and tablets take up much of their disposable time. They like the fads that 'influencers' on bitchute and youtube tell them they're missing unless they hop on board. Intermittent fasting, full keto, 'clean' keto, meaning almost doubling up on their food budgets and costing them more time cooking (I know, seems to run counter to my earlier point about Skip the Dishes, but the group isn't homogeneous. What crosses between groups is their spending, and it isn't on hobbies.)
I don't think there's so much of a straw man there. It's true that, just like our kids, we've taken to ordering things on line. It's true, hobby shops that don't fall in line have found themselves increasingly in dire straits. But, to say it's solely due to a failure to adopt on-line services is missing at least half of the picture.
a. Yes a lot of millenials are earning low wages... perhaps its because many of us are still in school? Seems most of my friends who have graduated are doing pretty good. Don't tell me about student debt or people taking wimpy "useless liberal arts degrees," I don't think me or my fellow mechanical engineering students would take that well. b. Yes I like food. Don't you too? But my physical hobbies are not neglected. I spend plenty on railroading and other hobbies like book collecting and Lego collecting; and still have the ability to buy digital media like video games. No, I can't sink $45,000 into a basement empire and $20,000 into a live steam locomotive right now. Could you do such when you were in your 20's? Believe it or not, YouTube is a free service... and a subscription set of Netflix, Disney+, Hulu, and Amazon Prime is probably still cheaper than your cable plan which is full of channels you don't ever watch.Also... in a railroading forum.. What is wrong with taking transit? If I lived closer to it I would take it more often, especially the vast network of commuter rail in my area. But I still drive a car, probably put 400+ miles on it a week.As for the house... tell it to my sister and her husband in their house. Or one of my best high school friends who bought a brand new house. Turns out, we are in a housing market struggle here in Utah; most millenials are struggling to get in a house simply because they can't build them fast enough. Besides, what would be so wrong with inheriting someone elses home if that is a better situation? Many familys internationally live in intergenerational homes, is that such a sin to do such in America? Does the American Dream require throwing away the homes of our family so we can seek out and buy the next biggest thing on the market, like some generational keeping up with the Jones's? I remember encountering up to three or four generations in some families in Argentina living in the same house. I'd say that is a constant in many parts of Latin America and perhaps Europe or Asia too. d. So then what are "influencers" like Luke Towan doing? Do I need to point out how many railfans and model railroaders are sharing the hobby on YouTube? That has a strong affect on this hobby; maybe not on this forum, but with most of my friends I can attest to that.
^From the young model railroaders tired of being used as a bad argument in straw man's arguments all I can say is... thank you for stating all of the above.
After a quite long period of decline, the hobby of model railroading is enjoying some kind of a resurrection on my country. Maybe we owe this to "ambassadors" like Miniatur Wunderland and a growing awareness that trains are "green". Nevertheless, hobby shops are heading the way of the dinosaurs here as well. There is not just a single reason to be blamed for that. Adding to what Selector has said in his above post, one of the reasons is the growing second hand market and the easy access to it via the various auction sites. For quite a few model railroaders it is the only way to remain "in business", as current pricing has put the hobby quite out of reach for the young guy earning his hobby money on the paper route or the retiree depending on his state pension, which has seen quite a few cuts over the last years. Hobby shops cannot survive on selling structure kits and scenic materials alone.
Wonder if this is the same shop that I went to when I was at UMass in the early 70's. Heard it changed around then, not sure if moved or may have been when he bought it. It was north of the center of town if I remember correctly.
I moved too far away to stay a customer.
Sad, I am expecting my local LHS to close anytime. The building is for sale. Afraid I don't do a lot of business there, as the selection is quite limited.
Good luck,
Richard
I have gone there on weekends and noticed not near as people over the years.
The owner has made special request from me. A friend in the local club use to do all the DCC conversions/repairs for the owner
Many restaurants even closing in the Springfield metropolitan area. Some have been around for years.
Times are really changing.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
It's sad, but nothing new here.
To quote the retiring owner:
~ Times are changing and it’s tough to compete with online retailers.
~ The interests of people are changing.
~ Not as many hobbyists as there used to be.
~ The younger kids aren’t as interested as they used to be.
Alton Junction
This fellow bought the hobby shop in Northampton, Ma many years ago.
It carried all hobbies as I recall. Moved it to Hadley, Ma a short ways then to Springfield.
When the Basket Ball Hall of Fame was built he had to move across the river to West Springfield where the Amherst train show is held every year. Stayed there for many years. I went there many times. Too bad. Many modelers in the area must buy online now. I have seen the shop shrink the past ten years.
https://www.wwlp.com/news/local-news/hampden-county/pioneer-valley-hobbies-closing-its-doors-for-good/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook_WWLP-22News&fbclid=IwAR34e6o7rjyXQaCcLAGSg2OXMKkeduBQGH5jJCjOOaQk82kaLWEqL2Tdc-s