You know that was all there was in real life, two of those locos..........
Sheldon
I'm not sure I understand your posting?
Of course I am sure that is NOT a real life representation, but I was surprised at the traction these 2 small locos could muster.
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
Brian, I sure I'm not the only one who is curious, but have you made a decision on your track plan on your peninsula? We've seen so many of your images both real life and model, so hopefully you will tell us you're going to lay track?
Neal
nealknows Brian, I sure I'm not the only one who is curious, but have you made a decision on your track plan on your peninsula? We've seen so many of your images both real life and model, so hopefully you will tell us you're going to lay track? Neal
This has been going on for years...on multiple forums...on multiple threads.
railandsail I'm not sure I understand your posting? Of course I am sure that is NOT a real life representation, but I was surprised at the traction these 2 small locos could muster.
No special point other than that fact, there were only two "docksider" locos on the B&O for most of the time they ran. Orginally they did buid 4, but converted two from tank engines to tender equiped, as they never needed all four in the street trackage areas.
So that guy has two docksiders, he has the whole fleet.
So it has always been interesting that a prototype that started as only 4 copies, and quickly became only two copies, has been produced in model form likely well into the millions.........
Just like Big Boys, there have been enough produced for every modeler to have a complete roster of the prototypes........and then some.
HeavyFeather This has been going on for years...on multiple forums...on multiple threads.
I hear you. I figured I would be nice and send him an email as he inquired about an area on my layout. Sent it, and no reply, not even a thank you.
Shame the way he does things. Maybe it's time we stop replying to his posts?
I'd wager there are even more Docksiders in relation to number of prototypes than Big Boys - if only because of how many people got their start with that Varney Lil' Joe.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
HeavyFeather This has been going on for years...on multiple forums...on multiple threads
Have you ever tried designing a good size, double deck layout yourself?
Plus move a empty handi house shed into a car port that you had to empty a sizable wooden structure out of, then move all the vertical support for the carport out 14" in order to get that shed into the carport. Then build an entire separate 6 foot diameter helix and its own individual housing out back of the train shed.
Then start out with a design in mind that I discovered (thankfully via the forums) that had just too small of double radius loops, did a full size cardboard mock up of that first idea to determine deck configuration and aisle clearances.Then begin looking at a second potential design, and end up modifying that significally. And now I am trying to fine-tune some of the individual areas/scenes so I am not disappointed with the final results
And all of this work by ONE individual,...me. I don't have other modelers helping me.
Lets see, when did I start posting on my original idea......August 2017http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/264616.aspx
Then I started this new layout idea in Oct 2017Interesting track plan, Tupper Lake & Faust Junction
(regrettably that entire subject thread got deleted on this forum)
Bottom line it appears as though I have been working on this for just over 2 years,....that's not a long time for many model railroaders to get a new layout fully designed.??
nealknows I figured I would be nice and send him an email as he inquired about an area on my layout. Sent it, and no reply, not even a thank yo Shame the way he does things. Maybe it's time we stop replying to his posts? Neal
I figured I would be nice and send him an email as he inquired about an area on my layout. Sent it, and no reply, not even a thank yo
Neal, I'm sorry I didn't respond to your private email. First off it occurred over the holidays and I did not get to viewing it till only a few days ago.
It was interesting material, but didn't help me with solving/describing the locomotive movements/operations I was trying to picture in my mine. I subsequently sat down and wrote this desciption that I posted over on that other discussion thread.*******************************************
Potential Operations on the Peninsula
Here is how I would imagine some of the operations would happen on that peninsula.
The mainline train would enter on either of those 2 tracks that meet at the double slip. The mainline loco might uncouple right there, and proceed to get back over to the roundhouse area or the freight yard by way of that escape route provided by the tail track at the end of the container yard and the runaround track.
Or it might go ahead and pull the train thru the container yard, but uncouple and leave non-container car(s) there at the double crossover. It still can use the tail track to escape and go home.
The switcher the comes in to pull groups of container cars into the 2 tracks for unloading. As they are unloaded, that switcher (or a second one) can pull singles or pairs of those unloaded container cars over to a waiting area (the freight yard perhaps). Then come back to repeat the operation over and over, ...pulling new container cars into unloading, then over to the freight yard waiting area.
Another switcher working the right side of the peninsula would grab off non-container cars up at the double slip and move them onto one of 3 waiting tracks for selection to be delivered to the 1) big dockside crane out at the end of the peninsula, 2) the carfloat, 3) several other warehouses in that port area, 4) allied rail rebuilders, 5) another industry possibly located on that thin right hand shelf, or 6) maybe even the brick factory or waterfront scene down in the far corner on that right hand deck.
(that little switcher working that side of the peninsula might be given its own little 'home' in one of the arches of the via-duct)
That little switcher might be a steam type like the infamous 'docksiders', or it might be a swarm of trackmobile types. Those multiple little switchers might lie in wait on that one siding next to allied rail rebuilders.
One of the 'port warehouses' I am considering is utilizing either the Walthers Waterstreet Freight Terminal kit, or the P2K 'Moore & Co' structure located approx here,..
***************************************
After I removed the Pier Freight Terminal building I began to contemplate what structures/warehouses I might put along the track feeding the car-float. That got me to thinking about utilizing Walthers Water Street Freight Terminal,...BUT I had already planned to utilize that structure as my brick factory office/warehouse. Dilemma,..do I want to use 2 of the same structures on my layout,...so I've been working on this idea for the past week,...and that has me redesigning my brick yard scene.It all takes time. And I would LOVE to move on to running trains,...but I want to be satified in my mind that I'm happy with my final decisions.
Last but not least, I am trying to get a LOT of industries and tracks into a relatively small space, and it takes a LOT of full size mocking up to get all that trackage lined up in a workable form.
Its a challenge, and a puzzle.
railandsail HeavyFeather This has been going on for years...on multiple forums...on multiple threads Have you ever tried designing a good size, double deck layout yourself? Plus move a empty handi house shed into a car port that you had to empty a sizable wooden structure out of, then move all the vertical support for the carport out 14" in order to get that shed into the carport. Then build an entire separate 6 foot diameter helix and its own individual housing out back of the train shed. Then start out with a design in mind that I discovered (thankfully via the forums) that had just too small of double radius loops, did a full size cardboard mock up of that first idea to determine deck configuration and aisle clearances.Then begin looking at a second potential design, and end up modifying that significally. And now I am trying to fine-tune some of the individual areas/scenes so I am not disappointed with the final results And all of this work by ONE individual,...me. I don't have other modelers helping me. Lets see, when did I start posting on my original idea......August 2017http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/264616.aspx Then I started this new layout idea in Oct 2017Interesting track plan, Tupper Lake & Faust Junction (regrettably that entire subject thread got deleted on this forum) Bottom line it appears as though I have been working on this for just over 2 years,....that's not a long time for many model railroaders to get a new layout fully designed.??
Brian, I have lost all ability to follow your process or offer valuable advice, but I think the comment by HeavyFeather was not necessary or called for.
I have looked at your pictures, I do read some of your threads, you are making fine progress.
I think my own personal modeling goals are too different from yours for me to be of any real assistance. Others have from time to time accused me of being insensitive or snobby, specifically regarding your layout and design process.
But I would never just make a sharp comment like this, and I was taken back when I read it.
Good luck with your layout and your process.
I hope to get my track plan finished soon, and get started on my new layout this spring.
My efforts will also be pretty much solo. While I have modeler friends nearby, I have always preferred my layout be my work, design and construction wise.
Maybe ironically, I have helped other modelers design and build a number of layouts.
My new layout will in many ways be the complete opposite of yours. It will fill a 1600 sq ft basement and will only attempt to represent a small stretch of a double track mainline and a division point yard on a large Class I system.
I think it is this dramatic difference in our vision/approach that has limited my ability to offer useful advice.
So best of luck with your layout, don't ever take my comments as negative, and carry on with what works for you.
How about model Helium Cars vs. prototype Helium Cars?
.
That must be extremely lopsided.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Don't understand that posting Kevin. Did you post it on the wrong discussion?
My new layout will in many ways be the complete opposite of yours. It will fill a 1600 sq ft basement and will only attempt to represent a small stretch of a double track mainline and a division point yard on a large Class I system. I think it is this dramatic difference in our vision/approach that has limited my ability to offer useful advice. So best of luck with your layout, don't ever take my comments as negative, and carry on with what works for you. Sheldon
Sheldon, I appreciate most replies that are given with sincerity. Whether or not I following them is a different matter. I'm sure I have learned a number of things from your contributions, so don't stop commenting.
And good luck with your BIG layout plans.
No I have not. And I, like many others, on multiple forums, in multiple threads, have suggested you are trying to do too much in the space you have. I do not need to rehash any of the comments you have received to make a point. But, you are basically spamming the threads on many forums with your posts of your layout, other peoples layouts, different alignments, etc....its just mind bending at this point. And very few modlers here, or on the other forums you post on, seem to understand just what you are trying to do. I wish you the best of luck in all of your endeavors. However, your reply to my post implies you may have bit off more than you can chew. And I, for one, find it very difficult to follow your redundant, confusing posts on the same subject over and over again. In these posts you seek to prove you are right while others suggest different options. Again, best of luck on your layout...I hope you achieve just whatever it is you are trying to do.
HeavyFeather - no one forces you to read Brian´s posts, nor does any one force you to participate in this forum. If you don´t like what he has to post, simply ignore it and keep your opinion to yourself!
Your are not the one to judge over him or his posts - that job is left to the moderators!
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
HeavyFeather railandsail HeavyFeather But, you are basically spamming the threads on many forums with your posts of your layout, other peoples layouts, different alignments, etc.... And I, for one, find it very difficult to follow your redundant, confusing posts on the same subject over and over again. In these posts you seek to prove you are right while others suggest different options.
railandsail HeavyFeather But, you are basically spamming the threads on many forums with your posts of your layout, other peoples layouts, different alignments, etc.... And I, for one, find it very difficult to follow your redundant, confusing posts on the same subject over and over again. In these posts you seek to prove you are right while others suggest different options.
HeavyFeather But, you are basically spamming the threads on many forums with your posts of your layout, other peoples layouts, different alignments, etc.... And I, for one, find it very difficult to follow your redundant, confusing posts on the same subject over and over again. In these posts you seek to prove you are right while others suggest different options.
But, you are basically spamming the threads on many forums with your posts of your layout, other peoples layouts, different alignments, etc....
And I, for one, find it very difficult to follow your redundant, confusing posts on the same subject over and over again.
In these posts you seek to prove you are right while others suggest different options.
Abundantly clear. You said the unsaid. Thanks for posting.
But, yes, the solution is to ignore the posts as much as the responses are usually ignored.
- Douglas
I understand that Brian is posting a lot of info on a lot of different forums, I barely have time for the little bit I post on this one, so I can't comment about those others.
I too have offered my thoughts to Brian, I once designed layouts as a side business, and have helped lots of friends design their layouts.
I said above I don't really understand his goals or his method, but just like a lot of things on here, I ignore what does not interest me, rather than make snarky comments.......
DO I think Brian is trying to cram too much into too little? Yes. And I'm pretty sure I've said that before. As far as spamming multiple forums - well, a number of years ago I gave up all the others except here, because I was spending all my time reading foums and not doing anything real. So I only see what gets posted here.
When things drift off to the "I don't even..." side, I just stop reading for a while. We get it, you don't like the guy's modeling philosophy. You don't have to berate him for it. You don't like it, are not interested - just stop reading it. It's not liek they make you read all of Brian's posts before you can log in to the forum.
ANd in case you missed it, Brian does take suggestions seriously. He was trying to squeeze too many tracks under his container crane, several people pointed out the problem with this, and the plan changed.
The helix built off the back of the shed - that was a brilliant idea. There's far too little room inside for it, here's not enough space to have level areas for switchign and do a nolix, and a signle level layout in that small of a space would not be ultimaeley satisfying. So there's now a helix that lives outside the main layout space. Not the first time it's been done, but maybe the first time it's been done outside the structure - there are many examples of people with a helix in a separate room in their basement.
I do my designing with CAD. I'm good at visualizing the finished product from a scaled down drawing. Changes sometimes only take minutes and a few clicks. I can try many differnet options in a short time. But I'm not everyone. Brian obviously feels he works best laying it all out full size, using actual track and/or photocopies at full size of various pieces of track. So his iterative process takes longer. So what? It's what he's comfortable with. Just because it's not the way *I* woudl do it doesn;t mean he's some kind of idiot.
Heck, my mechanic is also a model railroader. Or is he, after all, his layout is mostly just 4 glorified loops, and he runs pretty much nothing but Tyco, Life Like, and AHM. He has an extensive collection in display cases all over the room. He swaps things out now and then to runs something different - it all works, because he'd fixed up all the locos. He's basically got one of everything, especially certain sets like Bicentennial locos and cars. For example, he has a couple of the Tyco Alco locos and matching cabooses, plus the whole set of box cars. I guess he's not a 'real' model railroader in some peoples eyes. But he has fun, and isn;t that what this is really all about?
I'm not saying Brian is an angel in all this, he's done a few things. But the comment was unecessarily harsh, and then to double down when called out on it...
rrinker We get it, you don't like the guy's modeling philosophy. You don't have to berate him for it. You don't like it, are not interested - just stop reading it. It's not liek they make you read all of Brian's posts before you can log in to the forum. ANd in case you missed it, Brian does take suggestions seriously. --Randy
We get it, you don't like the guy's modeling philosophy. You don't have to berate him for it. You don't like it, are not interested - just stop reading it. It's not liek they make you read all of Brian's posts before you can log in to the forum.
ANd in case you missed it, Brian does take suggestions seriously.
Speaking for myself, that is actually not it at all. I actually get what he's doing. Regardless, I wouldn't walk away because of theme.
The issue is what Feather said. Its the lack of response.
The spamming of the forum with nearly the exact same thread, just tweaked for some different thought, bumped for every little thought, will attract many responses.
Choosing to acknowledge ONLY the ideas that are considered seriously is a bit disrespectful for an interactive community forum. Its not a break-room bulletin board.
Especially when there is an appearence of throwing enough threads around the forum to get as much coverage as possible, which strikes me as wanting as many suggestions as possible but intending to only allow time to respond to the suggestions that are really interesting and ignore the others. That looks like a level of self centricity that's off putting to me.
Posters have a responsibility too, not just readers. I'm not buying the sympathy.
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone...
And now back to the issue of model railroading!
MY overall plan
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I too have offered my thoughts to Brian, I once designed layouts as a side business, and have helped lots of friends design their layouts. I said above I don't really understand his goals or his method, but just like a lot of things on here, I ignore what does not interest me, Sheldon
I said above I don't really understand his goals or his method, but just like a lot of things on here, I ignore what does not interest me,
Perhaps this will try and explain my overall plan,...
As some have said I am trying to put 10 lbs of stuff into a 5 lb bag. Granted its true. Basically I like trains running thru a variety of industrial scenes. I don't care to model streets, and cities, and automobiles, etc. I like as wide a selection of industries as I can put on my rr,...and sometimes this can get crowded on a relatively small layout,....and even more so on my relatively narrow peninsula area.
I must confess to NOT being very interested in 'operations' in the past. For one thing I've not been back in the hobby for that long that I ever got involved in how it worked, and secondly I never took the time to study it so I could become knowledgeable about train switching operations. So I am relatively ignorant about the subject, (this is one of the reasons I am asking for help in track planning in several areas on my layout).
I am interested in how I might go about switching engines and cars on different areas of my layout. Perhaps if I do a half-way decent track planning effort, I will learn more about it in the future,..as I try to do some operations. I believe I have provided for ways to bring freight trains into my peninsula area, and a way for the big mainline engines to escape back to their 'facilities'. I would like to do some switching operations to get cars onto the carfloat, and to get cars out to the dockside crane, and to get cars over to the 'allied car repair' facility, etc. I am imaging that I could use that little steam 0-4-4T loco I have, a new B&O docksider, a BLI trackmobile, and several diesel switchers I have to accomplish these operations.
I am still NOT interested in waybills, tracking individual cars, etc, etc.
You keep posting images of what you're trying to do and justify it to us. In your mind, it's right. We know it's your railroad, but I have to tell you based on what you've been posting, I think the 10lbs going into the 5lbs isn't going to make you happy down the road when it comes to operating your railroad. It's still congested and based on all of your other postings, you're mixing old with new, which again, it's your railroad. I asked you on on another post what is your operating scenario going to be? Right now, I can't see what you're trying to do! Please take this in the spirit that it's intended. Take a step back, think of what you really want to do, write down how you intend to run your layout, whether it's operations, seeing trains run while you do other things, or more of a static display in some areas. Neal M
You keep posting images of what you're trying to do and justify it to us. In your mind, it's right.
We know it's your railroad, but I have to tell you based on what you've been posting, I think the 10lbs going into the 5lbs isn't going to make you happy down the road when it comes to operating your railroad. It's still congested and based on all of your other postings, you're mixing old with new, which again, it's your railroad. I asked you on on another post what is your operating scenario going to be? Right now, I can't see what you're trying to do!
Please take this in the spirit that it's intended. Take a step back, think of what you really want to do, write down how you intend to run your layout, whether it's operations, seeing trains run while you do other things, or more of a static display in some areas.
Neal M
I think you touched on one of my primary interest,...RUNNING a VARIETY of trains thru a VARIETY of industrial landscapes. And yes I can set that in motion with perhaps 2 or 3 trains running while I do some other projects like kitbashing, decoder/sound installations, loco and car tune-up & weathering, etc. And I have a lot to learn about scenery,..which I have always appreciated, but have little knowledge/experience with.
That variety of industrial scenes I like results in my somewhat 'congested scenery. Perhaps I would liken it to a whole bunch of modules set up next to each other,...scene after different scene, butted up next to one another. And these scenes don't always compliment one another, particularly when you are trying to fit as many as possible in a condensed area. My peninsula area is a prime example,...a pier terminal building right next to a container yard ! Even the era considerations are suspect. But I manage to get both on the layout as a whole. I really could think of NO OTHER spot to put that pier terminal,...and carfloat, so it ends up next to the container terminal,...like you might see at a module layout at a train show.
The trains I will be running are also significantly different in types and variety. In this case I am certainly NOT paying attention to a specific era. I have steam of different roads. I have diesels of different roads. I have freight cars of many different types, and eras. I have passenger sets from at least 4 different roads. I have an several different Acela sets. I have an Orient Express set. I even have a Disney type monorail set.
Obviously I am not married to any era. I like to run different trains.
Does that make sense? Does it help explain what I am after in my layout plan??
Listening to Suggestions
Yes I am NOT going to adopt all of the suggestions I get. But how about if we just look at this central peninsula,..
1) I have removed one of the tracks under the container cranes2) I have modified my tailing tracks,...3 times in fact3) I have eliminated the pier terminal building4) I have cut down on the full size of the carfloat
...all as a result of the forum discussions
Posting on Multiple Forums
Believe me it is a pain in the ___, ...and it isa lot of work considering the different softwares used on these different forums.So why do I do it? Because there are a number of knowledgable people on each of these different forums. And very often these folks DO NOT participate on different forums. So how do I try to access their ideas,...post on multiple forums.
As I said, pain in the you know what, but often informative.
I'm not trying to monopolize forum discussions, but I do find if you let subjects languish too long, they loose interest/participation.
railandsailAs some have said I am trying to put 10 lbs of stuff into a 5 lb bag. Granted its true. Basically I like trains running thru a variety of industrial scenes. I don't care to model streets, and cities, and automobiles, etc.
A while back there was a local model railroader that only cared about realistic operation, and not realism.
His RR car fleet was a mix-match of different eras and styles. Locomotives of many road names, and scenery that was crammed in amongst too much track.
Everything he had ran flawlessly, and his operating scheme and rules were the stuff of legends.
He really enjoyed his railroad, and got everything out of the hobby that he wanted to.
Does this sound like what you are going for?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL You know that was all there was in real life, two of those locos.......... Sheldon
rrinker ....... The helix built off the back of the shed - that was a brilliant idea. There's far too little room inside for it, here's not enough space to have level areas for switchign and do a nolix, and a signle level layout in that small of a space would not be ultimaeley satisfying. So there's now a helix that lives outside the main layout space. Not the first time it's been done, but maybe the first time it's been done outside the structure - there are many examples of people with a helix in a separate room in their basement.
.......
Thanks Randy for the compliment,
Here are a few photos of that 'external helix structure'.
It started out as a structure that was to just hang off the rear of the main train shed,..
It grew in depth when I decided to include another 2 loops of track down to my staging tracks that would be located 8" under the lower of the 2 decks. Then my 89 yr old neighbor ask if I was going to have a viewing window on it. While contemplating that another contractor friend suggested I might put a windowed door on it.
It grew into this,..
(thats a BIG round custom built aluminum 'wheel' inside there that supports the helix tracks)
Next I needed to close up those bottom panels. Here is one I just recently built of old honeycomb sign material that needs a final coating of white paint to cover up the original signage. It was built of this lt-weight material so it could be easily removed for extra natural light and ventilation in good weather.
And then a little cleaning up with a rubber pad out front to cut down on rain splash and a muddy entrance. The bottom concrete inside is covered with a foam/fiberish material salvaged from office partitons to protect my knees when crawing inside.
I think the looks are ver presentable. And it is relatively cool inside due to insulation on top and around sides. And its bone dry. Now I just have to keep out those pesky mud-dobbers and mosqitoes that show up at different times of the year.
The Ubiquitous Dockside SwitcherInteresting history piece on the B&O dockside switchers I just ran across
http://hotraincollector.com/the-little-engine-that-could-the-ubiquitous-dockside-switcher/
http://hotraincollector.com/the-little-engine-that-could-the-ubiquitous-dockside
I know I've seen a picture of #96 in Philadelphia after being converted to ta tender locomotive. AHM I'm pretty sure had both versions, both Rivarossi, the tank versiona nd the one with the tender. I had the AHM tank loco back in the day, and more recently I seem to have acquired another. I always wanted to try the Kemtron cab forward conversion kit (It was made for the Varney Lil Joe) - so impractical and not very realistic but it turned the Docksider into a 4-4-0 cab forward. If first came across that in the David Suttom "Complete Book of Model Railroading". Taking that out from the library as a kid, there were all sorts of neat things I wanted to do, and the two chapters in it on the GE ASTRAC system sold me on command control long before DCC was a thing.
Pier Terminal Building Reconsideration
Over the past few days I have been attempting to finalize my track plan on my central peninsula. I've not been real happy with any of the other buildings/structures I've considered to replace the pier terminal building. You may recall I had decided to eliminated it.
I really like the looks of that structure, so my thoughts turned back to how I might include it again. I decided I was going to provide a space for it,... in case I decided to place it on the layout,...and alternately, I would be able to put an alternative selection of buildings there on the same spot. In other words this structure could make 'guest appearances'.
Many have commented negatively about the carfloat being directly outback, and fed with a track thru the building. So I looked back at Dave's idea to have the feeding tracks along side the terminal, but rather than angle the carfloat across the back, I could feed the carfloat with 2 tracks I had already planned down the center of the peninsula. Here is the tentative mock-up,..
(I will have to make a new apron track piece)
Interestingly I now have the entire carfloat on the layout, rather than just half of it. Too bad I don't have room for a docked ship slip.
Behind the terminal building there will be a full length (abbreviated for the layout aisle) concrete pier for the traveling crane. And yes there is a terminal building thru-track to get access to this dock. That is just the 'nature' of this particular loading pier (after all there were many different style waterfront pier terminals in their day).
Edited: In the photo above I show an enlarged door on the rear of the terminal structure (white paper pattern). Turns out I have just found a second 'front face' piece from an incomplete kit. This will allow me to build a double-faced structure like that of the Magoun pier I referenced previously.