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Switch from N Scale to HO?

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Thursday, August 8, 2019 11:55 AM

On the portable N scale layout I built for Scale Rails of Southwest Florida 20+ years ago there was a small switching section.

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Switching cars in N scale has never been a problem. With those deep flanges and code 80 rail, everything was quite reliable. With today's code 55 rail and thinner flanges I have no experience. It is probably just as good.

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-Kevin

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Thursday, August 8, 2019 9:33 AM

carl425
Anybody up for a trip to Iraq to salvage some of that depleted uranium the Warthogs spread around?

The guy my wife works for goes to Iraq now and then among other destinations.  Maybe I could as him to bring back some souvenier depleted uranium.  Clown

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

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Posted by carl425 on Wednesday, August 7, 2019 10:23 PM

riogrande5761
HO logically has some advantages - which is behind the spirit of HO lending itself better fir switching.

The biggest issue with switching in N, IMHO, is the weight of the cars.  Lighter cars won't stand their ground when you run into them to couple.  It takes more force to open the couplers than it does to move the car.  A lot of folks that are really into switching in HO weight their cars well over NMRA recommended practice to increase their inertia to allow for better coupling performance.  This is hard to do in N-scale.

Anybody up for a trip to Iraq to salvage some of that depleted uranium the Warthogs spread around?

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Wednesday, August 7, 2019 1:40 PM

Still, I'd guess the larger you go, there are advantages.  Nothing against N here btw.  I had an Atlas FA what would creep so slow you could barely see it moving.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

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Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Wednesday, August 7, 2019 1:37 PM

riogrande5761
One example, you can install keep alive in HO switchers to help them avoid power loss over dead frogs or dirty spots. Ain't much room in N scale switchers for caps. HO logically has some advantages - which is behind the spirit of HO lending itself better fir switching.

You´d be amazed what is possibe these days in N scake and even smaller. There is a guy in France who is fitting a battery and R/C to Ho scale locos running on 6.5mm track. His locos are among the slowest running engines I have come across.

Actually, I am not defending N scale. I have built layouts in about every scale there is except T- scale. Each scale has its merits and disadvantages. It´s finally a matter of personal choice.

Happy times!

Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)

"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Wednesday, August 7, 2019 12:42 PM

Tinplate Toddler
 
CAB146
But HO lends itself better fir switching than N. 

That´s an age old myth which simply refuses to die. Naturally, N scale lends itself to build layouts with long mainline runs and sweeping curves, but is also suitable for switching layouts.

I don't think CAB146 is perpetuating a myth to be fair.  I realize you are defending N, and I have had N locos that would run quite slow.  But it probably can be argued that the larger you go, there are advantages to improve the switching experience.

One example, you can install keep alive in HO switchers to help them avoid power loss over dead frogs or dirty spots.  Ain't much room in N scale switchers for caps.  

HO logically has some advantages - which is behind the spirit of HO lending itself better fir switching.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Wednesday, August 7, 2019 12:36 PM

SeeYou190
Good heavens Mel! you must have been amazing with everything working that good.

As always, mileage varys.  Everyone is different.

Or maybe he cannot find his way back to the forums. I remember I had a bit of a hard time finding these a second time..-Kevin

Bookmarks for the win!

 

CAB146

I'm here!  I was stuck out in the field with no wi-if.

Or apparently data service.  I've never found it worth paying for data so I can have internet anywhere there is cell service - but I'm old school and have lived most of my life without having to have the "precious" (my name for smart phones) in my hand constantly, like I see so many in cars driving around distracted.  /soapbox

We just moved and my old N layout will not fit in the new space. [/quote]

I've found after moving many times that any layout designed for a space usually doesn't fit into a different house, that is if it is optimized to utilize the most of that space.  If a layout is small, it may be able to be moved and re-used however.

I have plenty of room for N and a decent amount for HO.  I recently found a bunch of old HO decals in a box so I bought three blue box athearn hoppers and decaled them.  I had forgotten how much easier it is to do custom work in HO.  So then I started doodling in HO....

My biggest hiccup (and I think someone, Don, touched on it) is that HO now seems SO big.  I am in the RR industry so I lean towards modern modeling ("write what you know") and its hard to build curves broad enough for AC's and 70' wood chip cars, to say nothing of 100 car coal trains.

You got that right.  And even in the 1970's, let alone modern, there were plenty of 60' and 89' freight cars.  I've designed my planned layout to have 20 foot sidings, which will probably allow me maybe 30 car coal trains max.  Thirty cars looks longish in HO but you are right, it requires a lot of space if you want long runs and long trains.  I'm going with 32" minimum curves but most are a bit bigger (34 to 42 inches).

However, I have built many layouts in N that never go beyond mainline track because I get tired of them.  When I think back to the ones I enjoyed the most they were always switcher layouts.  But HO lends itself better fir switching than N.  But I still want the manafest train supplying the inbound cars for the switching to be long enough to set off a block of cars, not the whole train.

If you have the space, design a layout with staging for whole trains and have a yard with plenty of industry to switch.  That way you can have both!  Go to this link if you want to see what I've drawn out.  Scroll down past the unfinished baseement photo for a scale drawing.

http://atlasrescueforum.proboards.com/thread/3737/jims-layout-room-progress?page=3

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

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Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Wednesday, August 7, 2019 9:50 AM

CAB146
But HO lends itself better fir switching than N.

That´s an age old myth which simply refuses to die. Naturally, N scale lends itself to build layouts with long mainline runs and sweeping curves, but is also suitable for switching layouts.

Happy times!

Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)

"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"

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Posted by IRONROOSTER on Wednesday, August 7, 2019 9:17 AM

CAB146
My biggest hiccup (and I think someone, Don, touched on it) is that HO now seems SO big. I am in the RR industry so I lean towards modern modeling ("write what you know") and its hard to build curves broad enough for AC's and 70' wood chip cars, to say nothing of 100 car coal trains. However, I have built many layouts in N that never go beyond mainline track because I get tired of them. When I think back to the ones I enjoyed the most they were always switcher layouts. But HO lends itself better fir switching than N. But I still want the manafest train supplying the inbound cars for the switching to be long enough to set off a block of cars, not the whole train.

And that's why there are several different scales - none of them satisfy all desires.

You could build 2, a layout in each scale - one above the other.

Otherwise I say go with HO since that seems to bring you more enjoyment.

Good luck

Paul

If you're having fun, you're doing it the right way.
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Posted by CAB146 on Tuesday, August 6, 2019 8:21 PM

I'm here!  I was stuck out in the field with no wi-if.

in not old enough to worry about vision and N (though I have had those thoughts).  We just moved and my old N layout will not fit in the new space.  I have plenty of room for N and a decent amount for HO.  I recently found a bunch of old HO decals in a box so I bought three blue box athearn hoppers and decaled them.  I had forgotten how much easier it is to do custom work in HO.  So then I started doodling in HO....

My biggest hiccup (and I think someone, Don, touched on it) is that HO now seems SO big.  I am in the RR industry so I lean towards modern modeling ("write what you know") and its hard to build curves broad enough for AC's and 70' wood chip cars, to say nothing of 100 car coal trains.

However, I have built many layouts in N that never go beyond mainline track because I get tired of them.  When I think back to the ones I enjoyed the most they were always switcher layouts.  But HO lends itself better fir switching than N.  But I still want the manafest train supplying the inbound cars for the switching to be long enough to set off a block of cars, not the whole train.

Really I am just trying to avoid ripping out and replacing my driveway drain!

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Posted by RR_Mel on Tuesday, August 6, 2019 6:15 PM

SeeYou190

 

 
RR_Mel
Back then at 55 everything was still working pretty good and N looked pretty good to me. 

 

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Good heavens Mel! you must have been amazing with everything working that good.

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I am 51 now, I gave up N 20 years ago, and could never go back with my eyes and hands now.

 

 

Kevin
 
Back then everything went together very well, it was a quickie build because my grandson really acted interested.  He worked on the layout for a few months and we took it down to our County Fair to display it in the hobby event.  He got a Blue Ribbon and I thought he was hooked.  After we brought it home he only tinkered around with it for a week or so and that was it.
 
I even went so far as to buy a couple more locomotives but he just wasn’t interested in trains anymore.
 
I ended up giving it to some neighbor boys and they went berserk.  I sent the locomotives and rolling stock to another grandson in Alabama and he and his father built up a small layout that lasted a couple of years then girls and his car got in the way.
 
I’m sure glad I didn’t switch from HO to N, I can barely get by with my HO now days.
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by SeeYou190 on Tuesday, August 6, 2019 5:23 PM

RR_Mel
Back then at 55 everything was still working pretty good and N looked pretty good to me. 

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Good heavens Mel! you must have been amazing with everything working that good.

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I am 51 now, I gave up N 20 years ago, and could never go back with my eyes and hands now.

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kasskaboose
Perhaps the OP is waiting to see how this topic plays out before jumping in?

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He has only made one post, so he is still delayed by moderator approval. The bad part is that once his posts are approved, his reply will not be chonological with the thread, and it might not be clear what he is responding to.

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Or maybe he cannot find his way back to the forums. I remember I had a bit of a hard time finding these a second time.

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-Kevin

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Living the dream.

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Tuesday, August 6, 2019 2:19 PM

kasskaboose

Paul Dolkos told me that he uses N and HO scale together to create a cool visual scene.  He uses N scale industries to give the impression of distance.  I like it. 


There is a name for it: Forced Perspective.

That has been discussed in model RR articles over the years and it's a technique long used in the film industry.

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Posted by kasskaboose on Tuesday, August 6, 2019 11:43 AM

Paul Dolkos told me that he uses N and HO scale together to create a cool visual scene.  He uses N scale industries to give the impression of distance.  I like it. 

Perhaps the OP is waiting to see how this topic plays out before jumping in?  Not the first time we won't ever hear back from an OP.  I expect it.

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Posted by wjstix on Tuesday, August 6, 2019 11:38 AM

Changing scales, and/or changing from standard to narrow gauge, can be a great way to re-energize your hobby interest. I'd say, give it a shot!

One thing - if you're changing to a larger scale because you're finding it harder to see the smaller scale stuff, I would suggest looking into getting a pair of computer glasses before doing anything else. They're sorta like bifocals, but have much more of the lenses dedicated to mid-range and close-up adjustments, and only very little for long distance viewing. I have two pair, a "six foot" pair for close-up work (like model building) and a "twenty foot" pair that I use when running the layout. On my regular glasses, I could see the far side of the basement thru the top OK, and could see close up stuff thru the bottom OK, but things 3-4 feet away (like how far we typically are from our trains) was blurry. That problem is gone now with the computer glasses.

Stix
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Posted by riogrande5761 on Tuesday, August 6, 2019 11:22 AM

IRONROOSTER
Sometimes you just gotta whack something. Paul

trwroute

I prefer a punching bag.  You get to keep your train stuff... 

Now that makes more sense in a healthy way.

The bonus is, you can re-use a lot of the materials on a future layout and it saves some money too!  I'm all about saving money where I can - I saved all the benchwork, track, track nails and spikes, drywall screws, and even all the off-cut lumber as most of it will be re-used somewhere as risers or what not.  Only thing I couldn't save was the plaster scenery so minimal loss.

Tinplate Toddler

I guess we are among us oldtimers, discussing what has been discussed many times before. The OP, who has not yer shown up again, has not given any reason why he considers changing from N scale to HO scale. Without a hint was drives his consideration it seems  difficult to me oddering him any advice.

 

Welcome to MRR forums, where someone starts a topic and then we all jaw among ourselves for days with nary a sign of the OP.  Might be moderator jail, or who knows.

It's modus operandi, but still frustrating.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

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Posted by RR_Mel on Tuesday, August 6, 2019 9:34 AM

I gave N scale a shot back in 1992 when I built up a 4’ x 8’ mockup of John Allen’s G&D for my then 8 year old grandson.  It was a waist of time and money he took to it like a guy breaking rocks while incarcerated.
 
Back then at 55 everything was still working pretty good and N looked pretty good to me.  I was currently into the third year working on my HO layout and gave some serious thought of changing over.  I don’t remember why I didn’t but I’m glad I didn’t.  At 81 I got replacement eyes with dual Cataract surgery and I could see again.  That didn’t help my Arthritis at all.  Now I can see perfect looking at what I can’t work on do to the pain.
 
As one ages so does the ability to work on ones hobby so take into effect aging as you build your model railroad.  And regardless of the old saying “size doesn’t make any difference”, it does in model railroading as one grows older.  The bigger the better!!!!
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by Brammy on Tuesday, August 6, 2019 9:28 AM

That looks fantastic.

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Posted by trwroute on Tuesday, August 6, 2019 9:24 AM

I prefer a punching bag.  You get to keep your train stuff...

Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge

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Posted by Marc_Magnus on Tuesday, August 6, 2019 8:57 AM

One argument which really kill me is the eyes trouble about N scale.

It's always the same and only argument when people speak about N scale and the ask to switch to another scale.

" Too tiny they say and my eyes are bad"

This is somewhere not an argument and not for me me with sixty years in the legs, a dioptry of 3 and an N scale layout 45 years old on the way between Belgium and Montreal in a container.

When I see HOn3 layout with "rivet counter details", I can say the details are tiny as N scale for sure; most of the modelers in HOn3 are in the 6 age; never hear about eyes troubles as an argument to work in HOn3 !

Like any scale, you must be comfortable with it, like any scale N has advantages and disavantages, but the eyes troubles are not the argument to go in or out the N scale world.

Everybody which is turning the 50 years old begun to  have some eyes trouble, this is natural, sad for sure but natural.

Modern glasses correct these troubles easily, if you don't see well even with your glasses, go back to the doctor and correct your glasses.

With correct glasses you see like a charm in any scale, N scale included.

I build this wharf in N scale in less than two months between may and june, everithing is scratch, except the windows from Tichy and grandt Lines and I have good glasses which I wear because I'm sixty.

(More about it in the layout construction community on the site - Fos Wharf in N scale )

 

 

 

 

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Posted by Autonerd on Monday, August 5, 2019 11:01 PM

I got back into the hobby in HO just before my short-range eyesight started to go bad. Now I'm wishing I'd taken a closer look at On30!!!

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Posted by Brammy on Monday, August 5, 2019 3:33 PM
It can also take a few days to get out of moderator jail.
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Posted by BigDaddy on Monday, August 5, 2019 2:57 PM

Ulrich, he has only posted one day ago.  Usually those types of threads, which generate a couple pages of responses and an argument or two and nary a second post by the OP, strike me immediately.  I agree his lack of motive is curious, but newbies often are sparse on details. 

Time will tell.

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

Shenandoah Valley

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Posted by Tinplate Toddler on Monday, August 5, 2019 2:32 PM

I guess we are among us oldtimers, discussing what has been discussed many times before. The OP, who has not yer shown up again, has not given any reason why he considers changing from N scale to HO scale. Without a hint was drives his consideration it seems  difficult to me oddering him any advice.

Happy times!

Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)

"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"

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Posted by IRONROOSTER on Monday, August 5, 2019 2:29 PM

SeeYou190
A saws-all, ripping hammer, and prybar are great for stress relief. -Kevin

riogrande5761
So I guess that is what you mean then (above). I suppose that's one way to deal with stress.

Sometimes you just gotta whack something. Bang Head

Laugh

Paul

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Monday, August 5, 2019 2:10 PM

SeeYou190
 
riogrande5761
Violent <purge> ?   

Yes, I stand by my choice of adjective. I don't remember you being there, so I don't know how you formed your oppinion.

Settle down there bud.  I didn't express an opinion but simply parroted back the term you used and was a bit confused by it. 

I've never heard anyone use that term before in this context and was wondering what you meant by it.

A saws-all, ripping hammer, and prybar are great for stress relief.

-Kevin

So I guess that is what you mean then (above).  I suppose that's one way to deal with stress.

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Monday, August 5, 2019 1:14 PM

riogrande5761
Violent <purge> ?  

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Yes, I stand by my choice of adjective. I don't remember you being there, so I don't know how you formed your oppinion.

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I have had four of these violent purges of old hobby material, the most recent one was right after I joined these forums.

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Nothing gets the new projects moving like getting rid of ALL the old projects.

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A saws-all, ripping hammer, and prybar are great for stress relief.

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-Kevin

.

Living the dream.

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Posted by IRONROOSTER on Monday, August 5, 2019 1:08 PM

I started with HO, switched to O, and then to S.  For me S represents the size where it's big enough that I enjoy building stuff, yet small enough for a decent layout.

Since you don't say why you're changing, it's hard to comment.  But since you're changing anyway, don't just look at HO.  Look at S and O, maybe even On30.

If you can, save all your N stuff.   I have all my HO, O, and my son's N scale - my son when he got back into trains as an adult went the 3 rail O gauge route.

Good luck

Paul

If you're having fun, you're doing it the right way.
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Posted by riogrande5761 on Monday, August 5, 2019 12:12 PM

Brammy
 
riogrande5761
Naturally they are in an inconvenient location. 

My brother in law is an electrician, so I am hoping to save some money there. There are also two poles in that layout area.

Hopefully that will keep costs more reasonable.


As for poles, I do have a pole that's going to be inconvenient but I'll have to work around it.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

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