steemtraynI'm at a loss for words: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Union-Pacific-Big-Boy/254194883496?hash=item3b2f321ba8:g:2FMAAOSwQVlcrSuw
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Union-Pacific-Big-Boy/254194883496?hash=item3b2f321ba8:g:2FMAAOSwQVlcrSuw
You have to hand it to John Rimmasch, though: it's a useful source of revenue from foamites obsessed with the 4014 'phenomenon'. What's next, bottled blowdown water? (There's already a market for 'high alkaline water' although NOT the same mix of "electrolytes" as in boiler treatment!)
I'm at a loss for words:
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
PRR8259You and how many other people want to line up for small to medium sized "American" prototype steam? That's the REAL question here. How many would actually buy, not how many might buy if...fill in the caveat? I mean no disrespect to Sheldon or other steam fans; however, we are so far beyond the end of the steam era now that it seems the market for small to medium sized steam, or most steam in general (except the few who gotta have just one steam engine) just isn't what it was.
Hard to say. Some more recent polls seem to indicate the new "transition era" is transition from 1st to 2nd generation diesel (1960's and 1970's). It's hard to say if small steam would sell in numbers or not. There is a vocal group who want them because they would be good for smaller layouts in contrast to the huge Big Boys.
The Atlas Rescue Forum, of which I'm not a member,
You used to be, and can always return.
seems to be primarily HO diesel these days. There is very little steam-related discussion (other than considerable whining about the prices of both MTH's and Athearn's latest steam offerings).
I don't see any more whining about prices than anywhere else, at least the past couple yers not so much.
Indeed, it seems like every manufacturer has produced or is producing their very own C44-9W.
Sure seems like it but I guess they are just chasing what sells. I used to overlap into wide cab era but decided to back date to caboose era since trains just don't look "right" to me without a caboose.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL What is wrong with your 2-8-0? . It was pulling a short train on my previous layout. A truck mounting screw on one of the freight cars worked itself loose, and unthreaded to the point that it caught a crossing rail and the train slammed to an abrupt stop. . Ever since then the 2-8-0 has clicked moving forward and pulls high amperage. It works fine in reverse. I have not investigated the problem. . . -Kevin .
ATLANTIC CENTRAL What is wrong with your 2-8-0?
.
It was pulling a short train on my previous layout. A truck mounting screw on one of the freight cars worked itself loose, and unthreaded to the point that it caught a crossing rail and the train slammed to an abrupt stop.
Ever since then the 2-8-0 has clicked moving forward and pulls high amperage. It works fine in reverse. I have not investigated the problem.
-Kevin
Kevin,
The Spectrum/Bachmann 2-8-0 is easy to work on, but I suspect your problem is very simple.
The very bottom of the loco is a plastic plate, which includes the brake shoes. Inside that plate are pickup wipers and wiring to the two wire tender plug.
The plate is easily removed with a few screws. I suspect that somehow you have some bent wipers that are clicking and binding on the drivers in forward.
Remove the plate, often the wipers can simply be straightened out, and the plate reinstalled.
Worst case, Bachmann sells that part last I checked.
Sheldon
Most manufactures might just be trying to boost sales since UP 4014 is now restored and running. Most people that don't have one will be getting that number.
For myself i don't own a UP Challenger or Big Boy, but i do have the following:
1× Eire 2-8-8-8-2 (one massive locomotive)
6x 4-6-2 USRA Pacific ( heavy and light)
3x MT-73 UP 4-8-2 Mountain
2x 2-6-6-2 H4
1x 2-6-6-2 H5
1x 2-8-8-4 B&O
3x Bachmann 2-10-0
2x Bachman 2-8-0
2× 2-6-0 IHC
2x 2-8-8-2 Y6 and Y3
1x 2-6-6-6 C&O (riavrossi new run)
1x 2-8-4 berkshire (bachmann)
1x 2-10-4 J1
2x 4-8-2 M1B
2x 4-60 one bowser and one bachmann
2x ATSF 4-8-4 BLI
1X NYC s1B 4-8-4 BLI
2X BLI USRA 2-8-2
That all i can think of right now. Maybe one day i add a Challenger or Big Boy
Hi Sheldon--
I get it. I have sold BLI engines because they made a key compromise that I found to be unacceptable, that I believed would be a future maintenance nightmare (which I didn't want to deal with) so I got out of them and sold them while reasonably "mint". Did the same thing with the jointed MTH 4-12-2. Nice engine, but the compromise...just didn't cut it for me even though well engineered.
I don't have a dog in the steam arena anymore.
There are diesels that I wanted modeled for years, that finally were, but I don't buy the models because for me those models are a let down in execution--so far as QA/QC of the average Chinese example is concerned. Instead I am trying to find the Overland Models versions which were, for me, better made.
John
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhat is wrong with your 2-8-0?
Living the dream.
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Maybe we need a poll, who owns Big Boys and how many do you own? vs Who owns Bachmann 2-8-0's and how many do you own? For that my score is Big Boy - 0, 2-8-0 - 10. . STRATTON AND GILLETTE: . Bachmann 2-8-0: One, but broken/inoperative Big Boy: None . -Kevin .
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Maybe we need a poll, who owns Big Boys and how many do you own? vs Who owns Bachmann 2-8-0's and how many do you own? For that my score is Big Boy - 0, 2-8-0 - 10.
STRATTON AND GILLETTE:
Bachmann 2-8-0: One, but broken/inoperative
Big Boy: None
What is wrong with your 2-8-0? Mine have all been great.
ATLANTIC CENTRALMaybe we need a poll, who owns Big Boys and how many do you own? vs Who owns Bachmann 2-8-0's and how many do you own? For that my score is Big Boy - 0, 2-8-0 - 10.
Again, I understand, and even agree to a point.
But I kown aging boomers just getting started in the hobby and many of them want transition era models, late steam and early diesel.
I know I am "out of the loop", I have never owned a model of railroad locomotive who's prototype was manufactured after 1954. Not one, not even any 1960's stuff. Nor do I have any interest in owning said locos.
Heritage locos? I barely know what they are........
I don't collect, I only buy what I model. But I model on a large scale - remember my layout thread - capturing the immensity of the prototype? That's why I have 9 of that, and 5 of these, and 10 of those........
Personally, I think BLI screwed up bigtime by not going to just a little more effort with their USRA Pacifics and Mikados - too much trouble to move a headlight or make a Delta trailing truck before you plaster "Baltimore and Ohio" on the side of a locomotive?
And then have nerve to say smaller steam does not sell? And at the prices they ask for those "generic" locos. Bachmann has done, and continues to do, a much better job in this area.
Maybe we need a poll, who owns Big Boys and how many do you own? vs Who owns Bachmann 2-8-0's and how many do you own? For that my score is Big Boy - 0, 2-8-0 - 10.
I'll bet Bachmann made more selling me 10 Consolidations than BLI, MTH or Athearn make on one Big Boy.
OK, I'll go back to my world now where there were 30,000 Consolidations, 25,000 Mikados, and 25 Big Boys - even the Allegheny (which I do have one of) had more copies by a factor of more than 3..........
I think people are not running steam much at all anymore, at least not what I have seen on actual operating layout lately.
People HAVE steam, and those people want big awesome locomotives.
I run steam. I have:
2 USRA 0-8-0
1 USRA Light 4-6-2
3 USRA Light 2-8-2
2 USRA Heavy 2-8-2
2 USRA Light 4-8-2
1 USRA Heavy 4-8-2
So far I only have 1 articulated, maybe I will never have more.
But, if I ran a modernish (1970+) diesel layout, I would probably want a Big Boy.
I understand why they are being made.
You worked retail, so you know that it's at least partly a case of: "we KNOW the Big Boy will sell, so let's make that!" regardless of everybody else also offering the same thing.
That's why I made the comparison to Heritage Series engines. Some people have said that the Polar Express and the Heritage Series diesels may have "saved" the local train stores. I don't know that I can go that far, but the ones in my area have sold a ton of Heritage engines of all flavors, totally correct models and a few foobies as well.
Manufacturers do not honestly believe, in this day and age, that small to medium steam will sell. They just do not believe it. You will see the Bowser C-415 before you see much in the way of small to medium steam (this is my personal prediction and nothing that Bowser has said; with travel baseball I haven't even been in their store for a couple months).
Rapido of course is one exception. However, their small steam series will address pent up demand for Canadian small steam. Can you use some of those?
You and how many other people want to line up for small to medium sized "American" prototype steam? That's the REAL question here.
How many would actually buy, not how many might buy if...fill in the caveat?
I mean no disrespect to Sheldon or other steam fans; however, we are so far beyond the end of the steam era now that it seems the market for small to medium sized steam, or most steam in general (except the few who gotta have just one steam engine) just isn't what it was.
The Atlas Rescue Forum, of which I'm not a member, seems to be primarily HO diesel these days. There is very little steam-related discussion (other than considerable whining about the prices of both MTH's and Athearn's latest steam offerings). Indeed, it seems like every manufacturer has produced or is producing their very own C44-9W.
It IS true that recent BLI brass hybrids in mint condition are selling for prices comparable to their all-brass cousins, but is that because they are now hard to find and not many were made to begin with? Or does it support any kind of market trend? And most of the BLI steam is in the medium to large category.
I loved my HO steamers when I them, and have read many of the books on UP Challengers, Big Boys, N&W steam, C&O steam, ATSF steam, etc. etc. but ultimately I am not blessed by being able to have seen or remember that era. Like others of my generation, I seem drawn to later eras that I can actually remember.
Sheldon--there's plenty of bargains available now in HO brass, particularly steam. Prices for much of the older stuff have actually plummeted in the last two years to where good vintage brass can be had for prices very comparable to MTH/Genesis/BLI brand new stuff.
I found deals on some HO brass diesels that I could not pass up--brass models for very comparable to current plastic prices. The elite, rare models are going up, but the vast majority are down in price, including many steam models like PFM Crowns that once upon a time were highly valued, sought after models. (I know, that generation of collectors is leaving the active scene). To me it says that there may not be enough steam fans relative to models that remain.
John, I would not disagree with anything you said, but I would expand the question.
I don't question the demand for Big Boys, but I do question the wisdom of three or four companies beating each other up over the same market share?
Unless someone can demonstrate that the market for Big Boys is exponentially bigger than the market for, let's say accurate models of 4-6-2's, (which we have very few of), it seems more money could be made figuring out what else would sell that no one else is making?
I realize that the running gear of a loco is actually the least expensive part these days, but there would still be great economy in finding locos with common driver size and wheel base and making multiple proto correct shells.
Many operations oriented modelers like myself with medium or larger layouts often buy multiple copies of the same locos. It is a realism detail. A given B&O engine terminal would have multiples of just a few loco types, no one each of a wide selection of types.
As a protolance modeler I have:
9 Spectrum 4-8-2's
5 of my kit bashed Bachmann 2-8-2's from 2-8-4's
5 Spectrum 2-6-6-2
3 Spectrum 2-10-2's
etc, etc, etc.
How many people have 9 Big Boys?
If they make more medium sized power, I will buy it.
And my locos will not be on the used market until I die...........
I have about 50 steam locomotive models, I have zero Big Boys, and only 5 I would class as large articulated.
Nevin Wilson To me the primary issue isn't the price, that will undoubtedly be discounted considerably. It is the size of it and the lack of accurate small or smaller steam locomotives. How many people or layouts really need an engine of that size? Don't get me wrong, UP large steam is beautiful, but they are huge. Yet that is the size of engines they keep producing. It is one of the primary reason why I am moving away from steam and towards modern diesels.
To me the primary issue isn't the price, that will undoubtedly be discounted considerably. It is the size of it and the lack of accurate small or smaller steam locomotives. How many people or layouts really need an engine of that size? Don't get me wrong, UP large steam is beautiful, but they are huge. Yet that is the size of engines they keep producing. It is one of the primary reason why I am moving away from steam and towards modern diesels.
Here's the thing: I totally get the lack of small, accurate steam models, and I understand and can agree, but the big ones are the ones that SELL. They just do. In the era in which we now live, many "modelers" only have room for one steam engine on their roster, and for a variety of reasons (yes, size does actually matter to some) they want that engine to be a big one. Also, being an articulated, getting a big boy (at least the BLI/MTH/Athearn versions) around 24" radius curves is not much of a challenge as long as one has the horizontal clearances.
It is the big 4-8-4's and 2-10-4's, with their monster driver sizes, that have more issues with 24" radius curves.
Also--modern diesels are big indeed. The Genesis 2.0 UP diesel coming from Athearn next year will undoubtedly challenge some layout clearances. I can say that because I know that with larger freight cars, some of my lesser sized modern diesels are actually starting to sideswipe some freight cars on my (recently enlarged and realigned to 30" and 32") horizontal curves. There are a couple areas where I guess I got the track spacing a bit too close for the really big equipment. It's the huge bulky radiators that stick out from the sides and can hit some longer freight cars including the auto racks and long box cars.
Plus--many of us never thought we would ever see a Big Boy back from the dead in real life--UP did it, and now that sales of Heritage diesels have cooled off, producing models of the one living breathing giant steam engine is going to be money in the bank for the dealers in this hobby. Many people will want to have their very own 4014, just as the Heritage diesels have been so popular. It is guaranteed money in the bank for the dealers. That's why the models are coming out.
Modern diesels aren't exactly small, either.
Gary
Medina1128 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Broadway Limited's current retail price is $749.99, not really that different from Athearn's latest price. Everything gets discounted these days...... Sheldon I found a new one on eBay for less than $600.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Broadway Limited's current retail price is $749.99, not really that different from Athearn's latest price. Everything gets discounted these days...... Sheldon
I found a new one on eBay for less than $600.
That’s a BLI UP challenger. They go for around $400ish at MBK.
Summertime, two years ago.......I found Trainworld selling the DC version for $299 and free shipping. This is the Genesis version of 4014 as it will be in excursion service. Could not pass that up knowing it will be restored to service. It has proven to be a smooth runner and nicely detailed. Through the decades I’ve acquired hundreds of their locomotives and freight cars. Have no complaints or regrets.
ATLANTIC CENTRALBroadway Limited's current retail price is $749.99, not really that different from Athearn's latest price. Everything gets discounted these days...... Sheldon
[eBay link removed by moderator]
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
It was several years ago now that the Athearn Genesis Big Boy was at the $500 MSRP price point, and given the cost increases from China, the latest price does not surprise me one bit.
I had one of the Athearn Genesis weathered Big Boys from several years ago, and only sold it because it was a bit too weathered for my tastes. It ran great and looked great and worked very well on my (at the time) 26" min radius curves.
Given that some of BLI's brass hybrid steamers are selling for over $1000 a couple years after their release (once generally sold out) the Genesis Big Boy seems like a good buy in comparison.
Point remains, Even if Kader is making the Genesis Big Boy, they have no input on the MSRP or the street price.
And Athearn has single point distribution, so all dealers get the same deal for their particular volume level, and the deepest discounts are nothing like Bachmann. There is no "distributor" price from Athearn, just a bigger dealer discount for higher volume.
9 times out 0f 10 they do. We've become mind numbed by the idiot box. One rack, priced at $5, another rack, priced at $10 with 50% off. Same items, guarantee the 50% off side will clear first. "But this one is on sale...." The experiment becomes even more fun when one side is priced at $4, no sale, and the other is $10, SALE 50% off!
Pricing hobby items is not really any different than any other consumer good. same 'tricks' to entice buyers. There may be less wiggle room in a low volume product line, but that doesn't stop the same type of marketing from being used.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
It's a numbers game. People want to think they're getting a deal. You can tell them that a set of 4 tires is 25% off or...buy 3 tires and get the 4th tire FREE! I always wonder - if given a choice - whether consumers would pick the 2nd option just because they hear the word "free"...
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Kader may not tell its brands how to price things, but it seems Bachmann does follow that "really high MSRP, deep discount" policy. Which explains the most recent issue of MR. ScaleTrains "Rivet COunter" C39-8 in N scale, highly detailed, road name and number specific details, Loksound decoder, MSRP $279. Back page of same magazine, Bachmann Sound Values GP40 in N scale, only seperately applied detail is the horn, no variations from road name to road name, Econami decoder (at least it's an actual Econami and not some really cut down one) - also $279 MSRP. No way are these anywhere near comparable quality. However, based on previous similar models, using ModelTrainStuff as the source, they tend to go for half the MSRP. ScaleTrains locos seem to have a more common 15-20% discount.
Different strokes for different folks. Set a reasonable price, with little room for steep discounting, or set a pie in the sky high price and offer huge discounts.
doctorwayne I'm not in the market for a Big Boy at any price, but I have six Genesis 2-8-2s (four in-service, and two to be reworked to represent CNR prototypes) and have no complaints about them. They're very smooth runners, and I've not had any problems with gear failure, despite using them in some pretty severe service.I did modify them to improve their pulling ability, and also added pick-ups to the tenders, but other than that, they're pretty much stock. Wayne
I'm not in the market for a Big Boy at any price, but I have six Genesis 2-8-2s (four in-service, and two to be reworked to represent CNR prototypes) and have no complaints about them. They're very smooth runners, and I've not had any problems with gear failure, despite using them in some pretty severe service.I did modify them to improve their pulling ability, and also added pick-ups to the tenders, but other than that, they're pretty much stock.
Wayne
My one Genesis 2-8-2 runs just fine as well. And I also added weight and balanced it.
So, apparently, not every gear cracked........
Darth Santa Fe ATLANTIC CENTRAL The Genesis 2-8-2 was made for Athearn by a company that was about to go out of business. It was not all that well engineered, even for its time, and the manufacturer left Athearn holding the bag for various defects and problems. That manufacturer is long gone and no longer making anything for anyone. It is a shame that Samhongsa went out of business though. The 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 had problems (although my Genesis 2-8-2 is actually a great runner - lucky I guess!), but their brass models were fantastic. I believe Athearn's current Genesis models are made by Kader (parent company of Bachmann) using tooling developed by Sanda Kan. Those have all been great models from my understanding, and Kader does have a tendency to put the MSRP almost twice as high as the street price.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The Genesis 2-8-2 was made for Athearn by a company that was about to go out of business. It was not all that well engineered, even for its time, and the manufacturer left Athearn holding the bag for various defects and problems. That manufacturer is long gone and no longer making anything for anyone.
That manufacturer is long gone and no longer making anything for anyone.
It is a shame that Samhongsa went out of business though. The 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 had problems (although my Genesis 2-8-2 is actually a great runner - lucky I guess!), but their brass models were fantastic.
I believe Athearn's current Genesis models are made by Kader (parent company of Bachmann) using tooling developed by Sanda Kan. Those have all been great models from my understanding, and Kader does have a tendency to put the MSRP almost twice as high as the street price.
Kader does not set or control the MSRP or margin percentages on products it makes for companies like Athearn. They simply say "you want 5,000 pieces, each big boy will cost you X".
I suspect Kader does not even tell the various brands it owns, like Bachmann USA, how to price its items. Each marketing arm knows its own markets and knows what the customary wholesale and dealer discounts are.
Yes, Bachmann, and LifeLike before Walthers, have had larger than typical margins which lead to deep discounts by large vendors.
But Athearn uses single point distribution thru its parent Horizon and while I don't know the details of the current discount structure, I know that the difference between lowest "wholesale" and highest "dealer" prices is not as wide, or as low, as Bachmann has traditionally been.
The fact that the new Athearn Big Boy is similar in MSRP price to the current BLI Big Boy comes as no surprise. And from what I know from several dealers, the dealer/wholesale discounts are similar at both companies, with Athearn likely offering the better deal than BLI to many of its larger customers.
And in fact, the MSRP price of the new Athearn Big Boy is $769.99, not the $790.00 quoted by the OP.
Making the price difference between BLI and Athearn even more insignicant.
But $770.00 or $77.00, they are not selling me any, I don't model the UP, and I don't "collect" stuff that has no place in the theme of my layout.
Now if they tooled up a nice B&O A-2 Atlantic or B-18 10 Wheeler, I would be in for 4 or 5 of each, maybe more. A few in B&O and a few for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
Or, if they want to make big power, how about a WESTERN MARYLAND CHALLENGER (hint, its not the same as a UP CHALLENGER).
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe Genesis 2-8-2 was made for Athearn by a company that was about to go out of business. It was not all that well engineered, even for its time, and the manufacturer left Athearn holding the bag for various defects and problems. That manufacturer is long gone and no longer making anything for anyone.
_________________________________________________________________
I can say that I like my Genesis FEF3, Challenger & Big Boy versions around 2012 (sound with Tsunami decoders). I don't recall what I paid for the last purchase, the Big Boy, but I'd guess around $425 max (MBK discounted). I notice MBK's current Genesis diesels are discounted about 15%.
So, it will be 8 years later, accounting for maybe 15% or so general price inflation. That does not explain most of the increase. But other factors such as higher inflation of Chinese labor costs, competitor pricing, even tariff considerations....can be part of the equation.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent