rrinkerI start with 2 parallel lines that are 2" apart and then drop in the Atlas components to see how to make it fit.
One of my favorite features of 3rd Planit is the "connect crossover" tool. Draw your parallel tracks, select the tool and show it where to put the crossover. No "fitting" required.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Hi!
I've been following this thread and thought it was time to put in my experienced view. I probably started drawing out trackplans at age 12, and continued to do so until about 10 years ago (I was 65) when my current layout was built.
For a newbie to the hobby or one with that first dose of inspiration and ideas, the only way to go is with quadrille paper, a compass, a straight edge, a scale (fancy word for a ruler), and a track template (for turnout angles in your scale).
Usually the designer of a layout has size/room parameters, so I would outline this with a dark marker on a sheet of quadrille paper, and put in any door/window or other permanant fixtures, and then make several copies of this sheet.
Then, I would start sketching freehand to get a feel for what looks doable, and from there redo it using scale lines/curve/angles.
There is nothing wrong with computerized track planning software, but I feel they are suited for the experienced layout builder - especially when a large layout is in the works.
In the hands of a newbie (to MR or the program), learning/working the software tends to become an end to itself. Said a bit blunter, the idea is to build a layout, not spend umpteen hours drawing a fancy plan that is suitable for framing.
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Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
That's why I don't spend all that much time finessing my plan beyond making it fit the space. Folloowed by not doing things like trace out the exact plan on the benchwork, I just make it close. I did try the whole print full size and trace - it was a huge waste of time and paper.
I probably spend more time drawing things for other people than I do on my own plan. I've done enough plans at this point that I can pretty much just scribble on paper and have something that will fit the space. But a beginner isn;t going to be able to do that any more than they could sit down with a new CAD program and instantly draw good designs.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
mobilman44Said a bit blunter, the idea is to build a layout, not spend umpteen hours drawing a fancy plan that is suitable for framing.
Exactly. Well put!
Mike.
My You Tube
Was glad for our old club layout that one member drew up a detailed plan in AutoCAD. For such a complex layout, having something detailed is pretty much a requirement.
It takes no longer to draw it accurately with a MRR CAD program than it does to use pencil and paper, accurately.
The tighter the space and/or the higher the complexity of the layout, the greater the need for precision in planning and rendering. This is true whether drawing with graphite or electrons.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
If one draws pencil-on-paper for track plans, one might as well be using a stick to draw in the dirt. I say that as someone who did paper drafting in high school and college. Heck, Mechanical Drafting was my major for my first 2 years of college. I love drafting to this day, but it is only as accurate as the person drawing it. You have to have the right tools and techniques to do it right. Accurately making a track plan on paper would require either really large sheets of paper, many sheets of paper, or a really small layout because of the scale involved.
For example, 1"=12" is a typical trackplanning scale and most templates are based on it. But a typical mechanical pencil width of 0.5mm is 6mm on the plan, and considering that track gauge is 16.5mm, that's rather significant. And if you are using a wooden pencil, accuracy goes right out the window. Not just for track location but angles of switches, diameter of curves, etc. Our track requires very close tolerances to prevent derailments. Doing more than a sketch track plan on paper is a waste of time because you're going to be spending a lot more time fudging and trying to get things to fit on the layout.Meanwhile, on my 3rdPlanIt program, not only is it accurate, it won't let you cheat. You want to maintain a minium 30" mainline radius in a tight spot? You have to make it work on the program. With a pencil, you just lean it to one side and you gain half an inch...but then your curve won't really be 30".
mobilman44,"...Spend(ing) umpteen hours drawing a fancy plan that is suitable for framing..." is so that I don't have to waste money on extra materials, spend countless hours trying to get something to fit, or have to suffer years of derailments because I had to bend a switch or pull a curve or shorten a transition because hey, it worked on paper! rrinker,Actually, it takes far longer to draw something on paper than on a computer accurately. For example, say you have a 6-track yard but you find you need to move it over 3". That would be a lot of erasing and redrawing vs. a few seconds clicking and dragging on a computer monitor. And I have printed out sections of my club's plan full size. They were convinced that what I had drawn wouldn't work in real life. So I printed it out, cut and taped together the pages, and gave it to them. "Oh, yeah, I guess it will work," they said.I also had a complicated piece of trackwork on my layout involving two curved switches, 4 mainline tracks and eight different radius curves around a passenger platform. I plotted the 12" grid from my 3rdPlanIt file on my plywood, measured every track center where it crossed the grid lines, then traced out every curve using the bent stick method. It worked perfectly. No fudging or cheating required.
Paul3 If one draws pencil-on-paper for track plans, one might as well be using a stick to draw in the dirt.
If one draws pencil-on-paper for track plans, one might as well be using a stick to draw in the dirt.
Paul3 You have to have the right tools and techniques to do it right.
You have to have the right tools and techniques to do it right.
Paul3 Accurately making a track plan on paper would require either really large sheets of paper, many sheets of paper, or a really small layout because of the scale involved.
Accurately making a track plan on paper would require either really large sheets of paper, many sheets of paper, or a really small layout because of the scale involved.
Paul3 Not just for track location but angles of switches, diameter of curves, etc. Our track requires very close tolerances to prevent derailments. Doing more than a sketch track plan on paper is a waste of time because you're going to be spending a lot more time fudging and trying to get things to fit on the layout.
Not just for track location but angles of switches, diameter of curves, etc. Our track requires very close tolerances to prevent derailments. Doing more than a sketch track plan on paper is a waste of time because you're going to be spending a lot more time fudging and trying to get things to fit on the layout.
Paul3 You want to maintain a minium 30" mainline radius in a tight spot? You have to make it work on the program. With a pencil, you just lean it to one side and you gain half an inch...but then your curve won't really be 30".
You want to maintain a minium 30" mainline radius in a tight spot? You have to make it work on the program. With a pencil, you just lean it to one side and you gain half an inch...but then your curve won't really be 30".
Paul3 And I have printed out sections of my club's plan full size. They were convinced that what I had drawn wouldn't work in real life. So I printed it out, cut and taped together the pages, and gave it to them. "Oh, yeah, I guess it will work," they said.
And I have printed out sections of my club's plan full size. They were convinced that what I had drawn wouldn't work in real life. So I printed it out, cut and taped together the pages, and gave it to them. "Oh, yeah, I guess it will work," they said.
Alton Junction
when I took a writing course at work, they emphasised that initially you should just get your thoughts down on paper and not worry about, spelling, grammar or format.
the same is probably true for layout design, get your design down on paper without worrying about the details. In other words, get your dreams down and then deal with reality and finally the details of trackwork (i.e. radii and turnout sizes).
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
richhotrain,I've seen plenty of hand-drawn layout designs. They rarely match the layout 100%. Have you ever had to make changes building the layout because the penciled in plan didn't work? I've seen that often.Six sheets of 11"x17" for a 42'x25' layout? What scale?Accurate dimensions of all switches are readily available? Where would that be?
A compass can be accurate...up to the limit of the thickness of the lead. But even the most accurate compass can't draw a transition curve.
Maybe it's just me, but when I mean accurate, I mean dead to nuts accurate, not "close enough". If anyone has to tweak a switch here, or gently curve a track there just to get something to fit, then the plan was not accurate.
I also took drafting classes in high school (Chicago's Lane Tech - 1962) and found that the teachings served me well in drawing up scale track plans on quadrille paper. And with an HO track template for turnouts and crossings, they turned out quite accurate when transferred to the plywood.
As I said earlier, if you are planning a sizeable layout, especially for a club, using a track planning software would be highly desireable. BUT, that is not a starting point, for hand drawn sketches would be a necessary preamble.
But once again, a post asking simple questions has turned into a "versus" debate - which does not serve the OP.
Changes in paper drafting are why you use tracing paper until you are ready for a 'final' design. You can trace over the otherwise properly drawn yard with the new layer of tracing paper offset so the yard is shofted over the required distance instead of erasing the whole thing and drawing it all out again.
Also why older electronics have so many 'bodge' wires fixing mistakes - the PCBs were all laid out by hand and with stick-on pads and so forth, and redoing the board to fix a mistake was a lot more expensive than just having somone solder on a jumper wire. Still happens even with electronic drafting, if only because the circuits are now many times more complex and the sheer amount of work required to reroute perhaps dozens of traces to add in the one you forgot may end up costing far more than adding a manufacturing step to solder on a wire. And even worse, if thousands of boards with the mistake have already been produced, even if not yet populated. Sure, you can get 10 PCBs for $1 from these Chinese places these days, but those are small boards and are not production qulaity, nor are they multiple layers like almost all modern components need. There isn't, for example, room on just two sides of a board to run all the wires from a modern CPU with more than 1100 pins on the bottom.
I just checked the course catalog at a major engineering school and they don't even offer instruction in drafting without a computer. Why do you think that is? I only checked the engineering curriculum, maybe they teach it in the history department.
Have y'all considered that it's easier for you to use pencil and paper because you were trained to do so when that was the only option? I doubt seriously if anybody has been tought manual drafting this century. They've been tought to use computers. People born after 1970 or so don't think like you do. They approach problems differently because they have had different tools available to them.
Some of us have had tried to embrace new ideas and keep up (with varying degrees of success). The "old dogs" that don't want to learn any new tricks can plod on with their stone knives and bear skins if they choose, but they need to let the rest of the world move on.
carl425plod on with their stone knives and bear skins if they choose,
.
Poor Edith Keeler, it was such a shame...
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Even though I have some CADD experience, my latest track plan is being drawn on a couple 24 x 36 sheets of mylar.
By the time I would get up to speed with any of these programs (because I have not used any of them in years), I will be done drawing the layout the "old way".
Of course I still use hand drafting in my work every day. Just completed plans for a 1000 sq ft addition to a house with a 1000 sq ft basement foundation, 5 sheets, about 35-40 hours of drafting total. CADD would not have been any faster.
Any experienced hand draftsman knows all sorts of short cuts for changes.
How accurate does a track plan need to be? If you follow good engineering practice, and not try to cram stuff in, reasonably accurate hand drafting is all you need.
My biggest problem with computer drafting is not being able to see the whole sheet at once unless you have the room for large expensive monitor set ups, no thanks.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL How accurate does a track plan need to be? If you follow good engineering practice, and not try to cram stuff in, reasonably accurate hand drafting is all you need. Sheldon
Therein lies the issue. Its a recurring theme for me. Simple vs complex. Simple is probably more realistic, and can also accomodate some changes on the fly during construction.
- Douglas
I have nothing against, or will I stand in the way of, anybody that wants to use a computer program to design their track work.
The proof is in the actual building of the layout, if it actually does get built. Did you make changes? Did you make the changes because once you seen the actual plan laid out in front of you, with track and turnouts in hand, you thought it might work better if I did this? or that?
The way I see it, if you need a computer program to figure out how to cram complex track work into a small area, your cluttering the layout with way too much track.
With templates, turnout templates can be made from tracing the turnouts you have in a box, waiting to become part of a layout. It worked fine for me. It all fit just the way my crude, "drawing in the dirt with a stick" plan shows.
By the way, just what is "complex" track work? Modeling nothing but a yard? or a model of Alton Junction?
Design on my friends, how ever you wish to do so.
If I build another layout, I'll "design" it the way I did my current layout, except, maybe I'll start with a flat bed of sand, and I'll sharpen the stick, to get finer details.
RR_Mel I’m one of those “Old Dogs” and once introduced to a CAD program on my first IBM PC in 1985 I never looked back. To me my CAD runs a close second to my model railroading, can’t do without either. When my arthritis gets so bad I can’t work on my layout I go to my CAD. I also took two years of Mechanical Drawing in high school and Drafting in college but my CAD program is so much easier than the old paper and pencil way I rarely use them. There are so many things that one can do on the Computer Assisted Drawing program it’s mind boggling. I even draw model railroad pictures on my CAD when I can’t do any physical work do to arthritic pain. My double crossover, Atlas components out of the box have 3” center to center spacing. My Mel mod for 2” spacing center to center spacing. So easily done on my computer. CAD isn’t for everyone but the OP is young and the young take to computers like fish in water. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Mel, I would never question the value of CADD, but as a practical matter, no matter how computer "comfortable" you are, unless you use CADD on a regular basis, it is time consuming and has moderately steep learning curve starting out.
Now, when I was drafting multi story buildings downtown, CADD had major advantages that made it well worth the cost, learning curve and optimum equipment.
But even in my work, I don't do enough, of a complex enough nature, often enough, to see those benifits.
You are obviously having fun with CADD as part of the hobby like I have fun with "old fashioned" electronic controls. That is great. But learning and playing with CADD is not automatically fun for everyone.
In fact, I find myself less and less interested in anything having to do with computers. For me they are just an information and comunication portal/processor. The less I'm in front of one, the happier I am.
Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL How accurate does a track plan need to be? If you follow good engineering practice, and not try to cram stuff in, reasonably accurate hand drafting is all you need. Sheldon Therein lies the issue. Its a recurring theme for me. Simple vs complex. Simple is probably more realistic, and can also accomodate some changes on the fly during construction.
Exactly! For 25 years now I have been on the "less track and less complexity in a bigger space" path, as has been being discussed in the thread about my new layout.
My best example, an 8 track yard 25' long is no more complex than an 8 track yard only 12' long. Which one is more realistic? I have the room for the 25' yard, especially being willing to only have one such yard....
You guys...
I am so bad at track planning... paper or CAD, that I am a certifiable incompetent.
I had to build a 1:1 scale model of my actual layout, then make a sketch from that. At least I KNOW eveything will fit. Nothing will ever be more accurate than a full sized model using the actual track components.
carl425 I just checked the course catalog at a major engineering school and they don't even offer instruction in drafting without a computer. Why do you think that is? I only checked the engineering curriculum, maybe they teach it in the history department. Have y'all considered that it's easier for you to use pencil and paper because you were trained to do so when that was the only option? I doubt seriously if anybody has been tought manual drafting this century. They've been tought to use computers. People born after 1970 or so don't think like you do. They approach problems differently because they have had different tools available to them. Some of us have had tried to embrace new ideas and keep up (with varying degrees of success). The "old dogs" that don't want to learn any new tricks can plod on with their stone knives and bear skins if they choose, but they need to let the rest of the world move on.
Let me return to a more civil discussion of paper and pencil. It is simple, it is basic, and it is accurate. The learning curve is zero, and the price is right. The OP has been "doodling random ideas for track plans". That is fine, nothing wrong with that. He is looking for something more accurate. So, I repeat, how about pencil and paper? There is nothing wrong with track planning software, but you do not need it to draw an accurate and workable track plan.
All this crap about track plans being developed with sophisticated software engineering programs, running trains with smart phones, and controlling the layout with tablets from another room may impress some, but model railroading is about having fun and getting away from all of that technology. This thread is beginning to bore me.
Rich
carl425I just checked the course catalog at a major engineering school and they don't even offer instruction in drafting without a computer. Why do you think that is? I
yet every office I've had had a black/white board ... and they still have napkins in the cafeteria
i doubt the final product every starts in cad
gregc carl425 I just checked the course catalog at a major engineering school and they don't even offer instruction in drafting without a computer. Why do you think that is? I yet every office I've had had a black/white board ... and they still have napkins in the cafeteria i doubt the final product every starts in cad
carl425 I just checked the course catalog at a major engineering school and they don't even offer instruction in drafting without a computer. Why do you think that is? I
So true.
I have designed for a number friends, those basement filling model railroad empires I am often told are so rare, and many of them started out on a napkin........
And like Rich, I have lots of "tech" experiance. I was writing code for PLC'S in the early 80's to replace relay controls in factories.
But I still manage my daily work with a legal pad........
gregcyet every office I've had had a black/white board ... and they still have napkins in the cafeteria
Every one of those offices/cafeterias probably had chairs too - which is equally relevant to a thread titled "Track Planning Software Recommendations".
carl425 gregc yet every office I've had had a black/white board ... and they still have napkins in the cafeteria Every one of those offices/cafeterias probably had chairs too - which is equally relevant to a thread titled "Track Planning Software Recommendations".
gregc yet every office I've had had a black/white board ... and they still have napkins in the cafeteria
i think part of the relavence is understanding what cad deals with best.
if you were to consider several different approaches to part of the problem, you would probably flesh them out on paper (or white board) before drawing one or all ideas in cad.
so even after starting to draw a layout in cad, paper/pencil is still a very useful tool for fleshing out ideas.
richhotrainLet me return to a more civil discussion of paper and pencil. It is simple, it is basic, and it is accurate.
For YOU, but not necessarily for others. What you and the rest of the pencil pushers have failed to recognize is that different people have different skills, abilities and preferences. When someone is asking for software recommendations, it is pretty clear what his preference is. I find "use a pencil" as a response to be offensive (so we're even ).
gregcso even after starting to draw a layout in cad, paper/pencil is still a very useful tool for fleshing out ideas.
Maybe for you, but I prefer to flesh out my ideas in XtrackCAD. There hasn't even been a pencil in my house for probably 20 years.
...but I will use that white board to explore ideas with a customer for the layout of a Storage Area Network. I think the difference is that the white board facilitates collaboration. I have never participated in a collaborative track plan.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Mel, I would never question the value of CADD, but as a practical matter, no matter how computer "comfortable" you are, unless you use CADD on a regular basis, it is time consuming and has moderately steep learning curve starting out. Now, when I was drafting multi story buildings downtown, CADD had major advantages that made it well worth the cost, learning curve and optimum equipment. But even in my work, I don't do enough, of a complex enough nature, often enough, to see those benifits. You are obviously having fun with CADD as part of the hobby like I have fun with "old fashioned" electronic controls. That is great. But learning and playing with CADD is not automatically fun for everyone. In fact, I find myself less and less interested in anything having to do with computers. For me they are just an information and comunication portal/processor. The less I'm in front of one, the happier I am. Sheldon