Penn Central. More people modeling it than we realize!

[AntonioFP45]

Hey Guys,

You probably remember the topic regarding a beautiful layout that featured Penn Central. Many posts were made, mostly positive but some "seemed" to question why would hobbyists model the PC since the prototype was a financial mess and Conrail was born as a result. Paul3 and I had friendly disagreements over "why or why not" model PC. Seemed like that some of the posters that didn't like the Penn Central for understandable reasons, however, looked "down" on those that admit to modeling PC or owning cars that have those "worms" on the side.

I talked to the "regulars" at my LHS. I was very, very surprised to learn from the store owner, Kevin, that nearly every single "quality" freight car kit or locomotive in the Penn Central scheme that was shipped to Happy Hobo Trains store SOLD OUT within a short time! The reason? Many of the customers that are in the "over 35 age category" saw Penn Central trains as kids and now want to model them, even knowing the full history!

Just thought I'd share this as I even questioned myself as to why I liked Penn Central but then came up with the same answer over and over........................ This was the railroad of my childhood! I didn't see union or management corruption. Didn't see money or equipment being pilfered. From a 3rd floor apartment I just saw lots of cool looking freight and passenger trains cruising by on a 4 track mainline in a deep ditch.

Paul3 jokingly referred to the E33s as "Mishapen Bricks." I doubt that most railfans seeing these things back then hauling 100 car freights at 60+ m.p.h would have called them that.

I hope to have my "PC" Metroliner bodies finished soon. I ordered a PDT II Self Powered Truck for the lead car to replace the Bachmann truck motor.

Peace! [:D]

[MudHen_462]

Right on, Antonio ! For the life of me, I could not bring myself to hate a particular RR, mostly because I love the darn things..... but I can sure dislike the lousey management that brought wreck and ruin to a particular Line or Road.

P.S. Before my 22 years of "military", I worked a short time for the NYC, then I became a Penn Central employee..... until the "RIF's" started.

[Anonymous]

I was once one of the NO PC on my layout, but I have since grown into liking the PC look, the main problem is the best representation of Swampwater Green was Flouqils but they no longer make that color in the regular line. I was able to find four bottles of Scaelecoats PC Green but Floquil's still looks better. I currently making decaling some X71 and X72 boxcars and building an X79 from a Railyard Models Kit. I am also planning some PRR X58 PC repaints along with some covered hoppers.

It would sure be nice if the Model Manufacturers would make the PS 4785 Covered Hopper as the PC had a lot of these in their X54 class.

Rick

[Anonymous]

I plan on having a few PC engines when I operate in the 70's era. Being a Conrail fan, I can't help but liking PC.

[AntonioFP45]

Irongoat.

Sorry for being slow [D)][:P] but, what are "RIFs"?

[swg]

[jabrown1971]

PC-I am too young to remember NYC, PRR and the NH, but growing up in the midwest I saw PC trains until 1976. The thing about people not liking PC is that it is not the "glory" railroads that went into it. There is a romance when you say NYC or hear PRR and NH, but PC represents the failure of the romance to many. PC is a part of our history and it deserves a chance to be modeled. After all in 1974 how is youre Water Level Route going to move freight! PC-love it, hate it, model it. PC, in the days before it meant personal computer

[raynbecky]

Reduction in force, translation, layoff's.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by raynbecky

Reduction in force, translation, layoff's.

O.K Ray, Thanks!

I knew it had to be so simple that it could have bitten me on the nose!

[:o)][:o)][X-)][D)][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]

[MidlandPacific]

I can't remember PC as a going concern, but I can remember seeing lots of Conrail equipment still lettered for PC in MD, PA, and around DC when I was a kid. That was the era when I fell in love with trains, but I fell in love with the old Southern Railway, which just sort of segued through the Dark Decade without ever fitting into the age of disco, malaise, and bad corporate art. The estimable W. Graham Claytor no doubt had something to do with that. But the slight visceral distaste I have for the '70s is by no means universal, and I could see how you could want to model it.

I wonder if anyone modeling the PC would try to catch the gritty "Welcome Back, Kotter" look of that time that I can remember seeing in the Northeast: factories with windows broken out, graffiti, chain link, ugly, rusting cars? Grit is an underestimated quality in modeling - not just weathering, but the seamier sides of life. I don't often see them, perhaps because we don't want to depress ourselves while pursuing a hobby. I chose to model 1913 Colorado in part because I couldn't think of anything bad that was going on at the time, but when I start sketching out scenes to be modeled in my notebook, I always find myself rejecting say, strikers confronting the Colorado National Guard; it seems too sobering. I find the urge to be gently funny is far stronger: am I alone, or is this a general feeling?

Has anyone ever seen (or built?) a Depression-era layout with a bread line, strikers, or apple sellers?

[rrinker]

Keep in mind also that a given piece of PC equipment will be correct for either PRR, NYC, or NH, and with a simple repaint (is PC black really just a primer? [:D]) you have a model that may not be available already painted for your predecessor road.

--Randy

[MudHen_462]

Antonio.... Sorry for my delay in answering, but I see Ray has already answered your question. Yeah, in those days it was sort of a "sick" little lottery... while standing in line to pick up your pay check you would pass by the newly posted RIF list, then you would know if you would be there for the next pay check ! The mis-management was truly monumental... all the while everyone else was busting their backsides to "hold it together". (Just some more Fallen Flags....) Bob

[Anonymous]

A friend of mine worked for the PC during this time and he told me the bank by the Airline Junction Yard had a special line for PC employees. They would only cash checks as long as their was money in the PC Account.

Rick

[philnrunt]

My best memories are of watching PC roll trains through Anderson and Muncie, In. with every type of diesel on the head end. I hated the black paint then but I've used it as one of my color schemes. Having only PC, NW and C&O navy to see, any time a foreign road unit came thru, I'd go nuts trying to get a pic of it. Then I'd go back to watching those old, black PC units, not realizing until it was too late that I was seeing the history of 1st gen diesels with my own eyes!
I was a bit disappointed that there were not more pics of PC units in the MR article. I've seen plenty of PRR and NYC units, show me the black!
PC will always be special to me, my uncle worked for them, their yard was 1/2 mile from my house, and I would give anything to see some historical society restore a couple of PC GP-38s!
And Antonio, just between you and me, I have 2 PC units, a U33C and a GP30, just waitng for a few GP38s to come along and take a freight of jade green boxes east!

[Paul3]

Here we go again... [:D]

QUOTE: Paul3 and I had friendly disagreements over "why or why not" model PC. Seemed like that some of the posters that didn't like the Penn Central for understandable reasons, however, looked "down" on those that admit to modeling PC or owning cars that have those "worms" on the side.

I never look down on people for modeling that "wormy" railroad. [:)] I may give them the business sometimes, but I'd never disrespect their modeling. What I did was question the reason why someone would want to model a complete and utter failure when there are thousands of other roads to model in 3 different centuries to choose from. The reason I heard most often was that it was what they remembered as a kid and that they didn't care if it was a "bad" railroad, it had a cool equipment roster. Sigh...

QUOTE: I was very, very surprised to learn from the store owner, Kevin, that nearly every single "quality" freight car kit or locomotive in the Penn Central scheme that was shipped to Happy Hobo Trains store SOLD OUT within a short time!

I don't know if you noticed, but items "selling out" isn't such a big deal any more with limited runs. But it does go to show that there are a lot of depressing modelers out there that like decay and bad times, or like to pretend that none of the problems existed. [:)] Whatever floats your boat, IMHO. Just don't expect me to leap with joy when I see the "mating worms". [;)]

QUOTE: Just thought I'd share this as I even questioned myself as to why I liked Penn Central but then came up with the same answer over and over........................ This was the railroad of my childhood!

And my childhood of the 1980's would be Amtrak, MBTA, and Conrail. While I do have some MBTA equipment (modeled for the 1990's when I was riding it every day), I don't have Amtrak or Conrail equipment, nor do I want them. Why? Because they were boring as all get out. F40PH's, Amtubes, and B23-7's. Ho-hum. When you compare it to even the late 1960's New Haven, there's just no comparison, really. The NH had several mile long symbol freights even then going by my house. Ever since PC de-emphasized the route for freight, there's been one local freight, maybe a long train once and a while. Big deal.

QUOTE: Paul3 jokingly referred to the E33s as "Mishapen Bricks." I doubt that most railfans seeing these things back then hauling 100 car freights at 60+ m.p.h would have called them that.

It wasn't me that coined that phrase for the EF-4's. That honor belongs to a N&W/VGN historian who wrote the book on their power (whom I can't recall). On the New Haven, they were known as the "Virginians".

rripperger wrote:

QUOTE: Has anyone ever seen (or built?) a Depression-era layout with a bread line, strikers, or apple sellers?

It's probably represented somewhere on George Sellios' Franklin & South Manchester RR. His layout is more of the "fantasy" depression than the real thing. I have heard many times from people who actually lived through the depression in major cities that it wasn't as bad as Sellios portrays it.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Anonymous]

Actually modeling the PC would be very good as one would have to run their trains at a slow speed like the prototype due to the bad trackage. That is why the PC baught so many GP-38's they could not take advantage of the high horsepower units that could not go over 20 miles per hours due to the trackage.

Rick

[AntonioFP45]

Paul, as always with well thought out responses. Thanks for correcting me on the "E33 Bricks".

QUOTE: By Paul3
But it does go to show that there are a lot of depressing modelers out there that like decay and bad times....

----------Wuf! Sorry there Paul, but got to disagree 100%. Depressing modelers??????!!-------------- Geez! Most people that meet me say that I remind them of "Mahoney from Police Academy" as I like to joke around alot! I go out of my way to play pranks on co-workers.....They sure seem to enjoy it!.

As for me, Crazy! Whacky!....YES!, but depressing? I hope I'm not!

Modelers that I've met that model PC seem to be Cool, Down To Earth people!
Depressing? At 41, other than a grumpy old vendor at a train show, I've yet to meet "Depressing PC Modelers".

Peace to you Paul!

[Anonymous]

I wonder how many PC's modelers have "standing derailments"? [;)]

[Anonymous]

In Toledo the PC had some in street trackage on Water Street which ran next to the Maumee River. This was the last cobblestone street left in Toledo. The joke was: How could an Engineer know when his train derailed on the Water Street Trackage? When the train was running smoothly.

I still like working on my PC cars and will be doing some engines in PC - Atlas U33-C and a Brass C-636 along with a couple of F units.



Rick

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rripperger

I wonder if anyone modeling the PC would try to catch the gritty "Welcome Back, Kotter" look of that time that I can remember seeing in the Northeast: factories with windows broken out, graffiti, chain link, ugly, rusting cars? Grit is an underestimated quality in modeling - not just weathering, but the seamier sides of life. I don't often see them, perhaps because we don't want to depress ourselves while pursuing a hobby. I chose to model 1913 Colorado in part because I couldn't think of anything bad that was going on at the time, but when I start sketching out scenes to be modeled in my notebook, I always find myself rejecting say, strikers confronting the Colorado National Guard; it seems too sobering. I find the urge to be gently funny is far stronger: am I alone, or is this a general feeling?

Good perspective.
Paul3 also mentions George Sellios's beautiful Manchester layout and points out that it is a fantasy version since Paul has spoken to people of that time period and found out that things were not quite as extreme as portrayed on the Manchester layout. I'm guilty of thinking along those lines too, though opposite of Mr. Sellios.

I would use some grit in the form of perhaps one or two "Downtown Deco" kits as these sure remind me of that time! However, I prefer to model more of the positives of the 70s. Plus, many of the mid and small sized towns around the U.S were relatively clean places as today.

It was not all grit, guys. And yes, I was around and already a newbie modeler by 1976. I even rode on the Penn Central with my parents in 71. The trains were clean!

We still had muscle cars, the AMERICAN BUILT Pontac Trans Am and Chevy Z28 were hot, mass transit was cheap to use, the economy was not as "horrid" as some have made it out to be, double track rail lines were still common, Amtrak was running "Rainbow" trains, and of course on the big screen we liked Steve McQueen, Rich Roundtree as "Shaft", Paul Newman, Rita Moreno and Jessica Lange. On the small screen we saw: Columbo, Kojak, Star Trek, The Bradys, Partridges, Happy Days, Little House on the Prairie, Good Times, All in the Family, What's Happening, and of course Welcome Back Kotter. Atlas HO locomotives were $25....for a very long time. Athearn set the standard for tough HO locomotives that performed, even when neglected. (I have a 25+ year old "Amp Sucking" SD9 that I've never lubed or serviced! Still runs like a gazelle!)

Just as with the 30s, modeling the 70s does not have to be depressing at all. It wasn't paradise, but yet there were still plenty of good things to see and experience.

Not putting you modern guys down, but an argument can just as easily be made about modeling today's era! We have terrorism, corporate job outsourcing, many minimum wage jobs, railroads continuing to eliminate trackage, a lot of "Politcally Correctness" nut jobs messing up our kids heads in school, a lawsuit happy society, Hip-Hop and Gothic music that promote sexual promiscuity and/or death....... This to me is very depressing, yet if I were to model today, I would not include those negative elements in my theme.

Cheers and High Greens![:D]

[Anonymous]

Penn Central was an interesting peice of history.I modeled it for 10 yrs and caught flack every time I turned around.I moved onto Chessie a few months ago.After awhile you get tired of the all black lokies.I hated what PC and Conrail did to the PRR in later years.Carved it up like a Thanksgiving bird.They should have called Conrail New York Central since most routes were based on the old NYC routes.They also killed off the Erie Lackawanna by shutting down Maybrook yards.Penn Central is neat to model but a bad part of railroad history.Dan

[CBQ_Guy]

A friend of mine has a basement-filling New Haven layout. He also has some Pennsy and NYC power represented. He was modeling the 1950's era. In the past year or so, he has moved up to the late 1960's so he could add PC stuff. While reading aA recent write up on his layout I noticed he is now calling it his "Penn Central and predecessor roads" layout. For years he had always described it as his New Haven layout.

Since I'm modeling around 1969, I'll have an interchange with the PC at one point on the track plan.

[csxengineer98]

thier might be more people then you realize...but they are closet PC fans... very few people will admit they model the road that was a total disaster lol...and i have a question.. how do you model PC anyways...cars derailed engins in bad shape....the ROW full of weeds and the track all missalined? hang on a sec? i just discribed how to model CSX...HAHAHHA
csx engineer

[PennsyHoosier]

Yes, the PC was a DISASTER! But the places the trains ran were AMAZING! I can remember back to PRR and NYC in northern Ind and Ill. I have more vivid memories of the PC. While the PC "experiment" was very bad news for the railroads, it is a part of history. And we MRs like to capture history. And, oh, where those trains ran!!!!!!!!!!!

[Paul3]

AntonioFP45 wrote:

QUOTE: ----------Wuf! Sorry there Paul, but got to disagree 100%. Depressing modelers??????!!-------------- Geez!

Howzabout I said, "depressing-to-me modelers"? [;)]

QUOTE: ...Paul has spoken to people of that time period and found out that things were not quite as extreme as portrayed on the Manchester layout. I'm guilty of thinking along those lines too, though opposite of Mr. Sellios.

And yet, one of the arguments I've heard for modeling PC is that, as a part of history, it deserves to be modeled so that it is not forgotten. Ok, but then shouldn't one model it accurately if it's for history's sake, warts and all?

QUOTE: Plus, many of the mid and small sized towns around the U.S were relatively clean places as today.

If you say so, although that is not the case here in southeastern Mass. Downtowns are looking pretty good these days in my neck of the woods. There are few if any empty lots, most every storefront is filled, and there is little to no graphitti anywhere. From pictures of the 1970's, I can't say the same for back then...

QUOTE: It was not all grit, guys. And yes, I was around and already a newbie modeler by 1976. I even rode on the Penn Central with my parents in 71. The trains were clean!

And what cars were you riding? My mom was a regular commuter on the PC going into Boston back in the day. There were many instances of her being able to see through the car floor and watch the ties go by under your feet, of sitting down on a seat and a wave of dust envelopes you, of cracked and broken windows (or half filled with water), of cars with no heat or no AC, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum. And I've heard these stories from other riders as well.

IMHO, the 1970's was the absolute nadir of American railroading in the 20th Century.

QUOTE: ...double track rail lines were still common...

Sure, when you could see them. The NEC this side of New Haven had knee high weeds growing between the rails in the 1970's PC-era! I've seen the pictures...

QUOTE: Just as with the 30s, modeling the 70s does not have to be depressing at all. It wasn't paradise, but yet there were still plenty of good things to see and experience.

It's depressing to me. Ugly clothes, ugly colors (avacado?), ugly scenery, and (more often than not) bad music, just turns me off. Sure, there was the rare nice thing about the 1970's, but I can't think of too many...

QUOTE: Not putting you modern guys down, but an argument can just as easily be made about modeling today's era!

Which is why I model the New Haven, pre-1969. I don't like the modern era, either, but I really don't like the 1970's. Give me the 1940's, 50's, or (early) 60's...

PennsyHoosier wrote:

QUOTE: Yes, the PC was a DISASTER!

Yep, it sure was. I hope the original author doesn't mind, but here are some clipped comments made by Noel Weaver, a retired engineer, on the New Haven Forum at www.nhrhta.org about the Penn Central (go read the original to get the whole story):

Noel wrote:
I think the speed at which things happened kind of took
us back a bit, the new bunch came in with "six shooters
blazing" and some of them did not like New Haven people
one least little bit. The "b.s." started the very
first week, leg straps, hats and more. People every-
where watching us and critizing us. They were experts
at finding fault with us while (letting) the railroad go
down the drain fast.

and

Now I have to tell you, the New Haven Railroad's engine
crews were a tolerant bunch and loyal sometimes to a
fault. We did our job as best we possibly could under
difficult circumstances and the railroad knew it.
The New Haven essentially left us alone and allowed us
to do our work...The problems with Penn Central continued
until a couple of fatal wrecks on the west end occurred...

and

In September, 1971, a vast majority of the engineers
and firemen on the former New Haven division of the
Penn Central booked off sick. The word went out one
afternoon and by the next morning there were very few
engineers working. Fifty three trains were annulled
on the commuter end plus a bunch of longer distance
trains as well...This incident accomplished its mission, it
brought out to the press, government and commuters that
all was not well labor wise with the railroad.

and

After this took place, some of the (stuff) stopped but
major damage had been done and I don't think the
Penn Central ever had really good relations with their
employees.
I for one and probably most others shed no tears at the
passing of most of the management and the final passing
on to Conrail. Seven short years, so much hell.
So did Penn Central fulfill our hopes for improvements
and stability, NO. Probably the worst part of my
entire forty one year career.

And people wonder why we NH fans feel so strongly against Penn Central?

Paul A. Cutler III
*************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*************

[AntonioFP45]

Paul3, regarding"

QUOTE: and what cars were you riding?

The streamlined, red striped Bradley & Osgood cars as well as the streamlined M.U trains. Basically ex-New Haven equipment in the Mginnis colors. Dirty on the outside, but reasonably clean inside. Man, were those trains fast! So again, wonderful memories for me. [:D][8D]

Now the old MP54 MU cars, yes, those things were tough but worn out. Never rode them, but saw plenty. A lot of them were in PC green early on.

Yes, as indicated PC was a business disaster. Very rough on employees. My late uncle, who was a NYC engineer, left in time and went to the NYC transit authority. I remember in the late 70s when I was in high school how me and some of the guys at the LHS would "rag" on the PC. Yet, nevertheless, today it's a railroad that more and more modelers are finding interesting to model.

Even with limited runs, some items don't always sell out right away. At my current LHS there are limited run Atlas and Proto units that have been on the shelf over 2 years. Yet, most of the limited run stuff in Penn Central that came in...........gone in less than a month!

Again, as I indicated on another thread, inspite of the job featherbedding and corruption
Penn Central still managed to run the long distance trains on the NEC from other railroads on schedule the majority of the time up until Amtrak. As mentined, those Metroliners, inspite of flaws, got lots of good publicity and still managed to whip 100 m.p.h. It was not all was doom and gloom! It is exaggerated in some areas, just as the Franklin and Manchester layout with regards to the 1930s Depression area. Penn Central was simply a sign of the changing times, which resulted in the formation of Conrail. I was around and remember. Other railroads besides the Penn Central were in decay. Erie Lackawanna, Milwaukee Road, Rock Island, etc...... The auto industry and steel industries were in trouble as well. Yet, things moved forward. Outcomes were positive and negative for all of these industries.

Oh as for the 1940s thru 50s:
After WWII many veterans could not get jobs, urban decay increased sharply, the Cold War began, kids in school went through nuclear bomb drills, the Ku Klux Klan was getting away with more murders than ever, the interstate system expansion ripped out whole neighborhoods.........and the New Haven was already experiencing business difficulties. There is no such thing as a perfect railroading era.

Modelers that model Penn Central are not depressing people. Labeling them as such is a cheap, elitist shot. They are model railroaders that enjoy the hobby! [8D][;)]

Crack addicts, alcoholics, child molesters, Al-Quada terrorist cowards..................these personify the definition of "Depressing People"!

Roger that!

[Anonymous]

Antonio,

I don't model the PennCentral myself but I sorta know where you're coming from - I had my greatest exposure to prototype trains during the late sixties/early 70's, mostly on the B&O in Maryland.

My B&O loco roster contains nearly all dark-blue diesels with yellow trim, and many 'hard core' B&O fans look down their noses at them, because they are not the 'classic' blue-grey-dulux gold that symbolized the 'glory years'. But hey they were MY years, and I've always preferred to model what I can see in real life (hence my decision to start modeling CSX). That's my hobby and I'm stickn' to it![:)]

[potlatcher]

Some time ago, in an editorial I believe, MR's Terry Thompson wondered whether the 1970's would become the next "hot" era for modelers. I think they may, and that this growing interest in Penn Central may be an outgrowth of that trend.

While Penn Central and the 1970's are not my main modeling subjects, I can understand why there might be great interest in that time period. In the same way that the 1950's are popular because of the transition from steam to diesel during that decade, the '70's were also a transition era from pre-merger railroads to post-merger lines. For instance, a Burlington Northern layout set in 1972 could feature GN, CB&Q, NP and SP&S equipment in addition to Cascade Green locomotives while an early Conrail layout could feature a similar array of paint schemes. This gives modelers great latitude on one layout, and that's what many modelers really want - a good excuse to run as many different pieces of equipment as possible on one layout without stretching reality too far.

The '70's was also a transitional era between first-generation diesels and second-generation. For many younger modelers, this was a much more significant event than the steam to diesel transition.

And, during the '70's many "old-fashioned" operating practices were still in effect (train orders and timetable operations, interlocking towers, semaphore signals, etc . . .), partially due to ICC regulation of the railroads. Once the Stagger's Act kicked in in 1980, many of these institutions went the way of the dinosaur.

I was just becoming seriously interested in railroads about 1978, so I managed to catch a glimpse of the tail end of this era. The '70's were definitely the last blast for many icons of railroading, and despite their dark and dismal episodes there was still a lot of interesting railroad action to take in. I certainly don't think we should give anyone grief for wanting to recreate this period on their layout.

Tom

[Anonymous]

As much as we hate to admit it, PC is forever ingrained in American RR history.To me it represents all that was bad about RRs in the NE US. It was like sticking a Band-Aide on a ruptured artery. I remember watching the NYC trains on the Hudson div. in the Bronx back in the late 60's and seeing 1st hand the slow take over of the solid black covering the few P motors that still carried their lighting stripe livery. Ohhhhh the horror I felt. In sharp contrast, the birth of Conrail was a blessing and showed how,if handled correctly, a RR could be run profitablly. If anyone has noticed, after CR was sold and slit up btw CSX and NS, both RRs started to restencil their power and rolling stock. CSX uses the NYC reporting marks on their cars and NS motive power has PRR stenciled on the cabs. How's that for about a bit of nostolgia?
New York Central.......gone but not forgotten.




.

[dinwitty]

It was kinda sad when 2 great competing lines merged, that had their own and very distinct style, and the merge seemed to take that away.

I did a lot of train watching,took films, but I look at the 50's/40's, the great railroad heyday isn't what it was.

Thats what I model, 50's era.

[AntonioFP45]

Potlatcher,

You've summed it in a very refreshing perspective!

[:D][8D][tup]