I'm looking for general info and specific recommendations regarding digital cameras and editing software to produce publication-quality or near-publication-quality photographs of my layout and structures. Pelle Soeborg wrote an article in MR recently describing how to take quality photos using cell phones. He's an actual professional photographer and could probably produce high-end results using an old Kodak Instamatic or something. Me, not so much. I need technical and electronic assistance.
The issues and problems (or challenges, if you must) include . . .
Indoor settings Fixed room dimensions and cramped quarters leaving limited space to take photos. Specialized wide-angle lenses (with or without image correction devices) might be needed to capture interesting vistas. Chairs, ladders, tripods, and whatnot (and possibly 'selfie' sticks) might be needed to take photos from viewpoints that aren't easily accesible to walking humans. Artificial lighting (LED general overhead lights with a few 15- or 20-degree spotlights) mixed with limited natural daylight from windows on two opposite exerior walls needs to be dealt with.
Very small to extremely small subject matter Double extra small for N Scalers. Whether it's rivets on the bulldog nose or handles on the hatches or micro-print on the builder's plate, I want to capture and show the extreme detail our hobby offers nowadays. That means I'll need a camera capable of producing macro closeups in crisp sharp detail. And related to this . . .
Depth of field I'm looking for advice regarding post-processing software to deal with closeup detail at the nose of the train (maybe two or three inches from the camera) and closeup detail at the tail of the train and beyond (maybe five or six or more feet away). So, some sort of image stacking or focus stacking software will be needed.
Thanks in advance for any and all help. I'm sure other issues will come up along the way, but I hope this gets us started.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
I would guess with the better smart phones these days, demand for digital camera's has shrunk a lot.
But it's all about depth of field and close focus - those I could guess are the two things you need if you are going to spend the money on a dedicated digicam.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Colour balance, macro lens, a tripod, bean-bag, or some other way to keep the camera still, and image-stacking or other PP* capability.
The above are important, not absolutely necessary, but very helpful. Also, any camera of 6 MP or higher, decent lens, and manual settings are also very useful.
I like small cameras with flat bottoms that can sit unsupported on pieces of wood set into the scene. I make a platform against which the camera can sit with the same aiming point from shutter-release to shutter-release so that the image stacking goes well.
* "post production", or programmes like photoshop, lightroom, DXOMark, helicon, combineZP, gimp, faststone, sagelight etc.
add a remote shutter release as well. Was a nice thing to keep from upsetting the camera a little bit / getting blurry closeups.
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
One such handy site I recall was from Bob Boudreau:
https://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
He used to be a frequent contributor here but I haven't seen much from him lately.
Our very own M-R Magazine made this .pdf available a while back from Brooks Stover:
https://tinyurl.com/yaa7874d
selectorI like small cameras with flat bottoms that can sit unsupported on pieces of wood set into the scene.
I agree. I have a whole closet full of digital SLRs and will use one occasionally for a "photoshoot" but 95% of the time I grab a small Canon that will fit into places on the layout I'd never be able to get a regular camera into.
NeO6874add a remote shutter release as well.
Good point. Most cameras will have a timer-mode. Mine have a 2, 10 or 30 second delay (or thereabouts) which is handy for eliminating camera shake.
Hope that helps,
Good Luck, Ed
Robert, you are looking at a DSLR with a short angle zoom in the 25 mm - 85 mm range and a macro wide angle at less than 25 mm, if you can find one. The problem is that you probably cannot get a lens with an f stop bigger than 2.8, maybe 2.5. Check into buying the body alone and spend your money on the glass. Be prepared to break into your piggy bank. Check out Nikon and Canon, although I am partial to Nikon. also, I have read good things about the Panasonix Lumix series. A ripod is in order and do NOT skimp on it, Amazon is a good source obviously but read the reviews on the photography web site, dont rely on the Amazon reviews for something this specialized. 10 mp would be more than enough but they really don't make them any more unless it is a cell phone. I am not a big fan of cell phone cameras.
As for software, start with GIMP, it is free on line with a learning curve, similar to Photoshop. After that you are on your own. Do NOT purchase any ADOBE product. ADOBE is getting very very greedy.
Another way of trying to get an idea of what camera might work is to see if you can track down someone(s) who take(s) the pictures of layouts for MRR magazine. They may be willing to give you some advice, or at least tell you what they use. There are lots of close ups in those MRR pics.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
riogrande5761But it's all about depth of field and close focus - those I could guess are the two things you need if you are going to spend the money on a dedicated digicam.
You only need close focus in the camera. Depth of field is virtually limitless these days through the use of focus stacking software. You take multiple shots at different focal distances then use the software to merge them into a single image with an amazing depth of field.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
bearmanyou are looking at a DSLR
I would NOT buy a DSLR for model railroad photography for the simple reason that for most of your shots the camera will likely be positioned in a way where you can't get your eye near the viewfinder. Even if you can get in position to use the viewfinder, the mirror in the DSLR will cause vibration that can blur your close focus shots. You can of course lock up the mirror to avoid that problem, but why spend extra on a feature you just have to disable? Instead, save that money for extra/better lenses and get a mirrorless camera with a good size display on the back that can twist and swing into multiple positions.
bearmanThe problem is that you probably cannot get a lens with an f stop bigger than 2.8, maybe 2.5.
Not a problem. Fast lenses are not required (and will hurt more than they help) in an environment where you are photographing objects that aren't moving and you have control of the lighting.
Fast lenses have huge chunks of glass in them. As a general rule, with all other factors being equal, more glass produces a lower quality image than less glass. Fast lenses are compromises for shots under low light and/or moving subjects where your only other choice is not to get the shot. That's not the case here. If you're trying to capture fine details, fast lenses are not your friend.
...and btw, they're way more expensive.
A mirrorless camera would solve any possible camera vibration. But, before you buy mirrorless, check into the available lenses. If you can buy a refurbished or used body, you will save some money that can be used on lenses.
carl425Not a problem. Fast lenses are not required (and will hurt more than they help) in an environment where you are photographing objects that aren't moving and you have control of the lighting.
I look at the other end of the aperature range for model shots. A couple of my lenses will close to f22. That gives me some great depth-of-field without "stacking". Of course, the exposure time creeps up to two or three minutes
Cheers, Ed
Oh, yeah, carl, you are paying for a fast lens.
I'm not looking to start a professional Photography Studio and I'm not looking to get a digital camera that is specifically dedicated to MRR use, but I am thinking about buying a new camera and I hope to use it to take better MRR photos.
I have a 15-year-old Sony CyberShot (5 megapixels) and a Samsung Galaxy S5 smart phone (16 megapixels). They both take pretty decent landscape and family picnic type photos, but most of the layout photos I've taken so far fall into the low- to mid-mediocre range. I'm sure there's room for improvement on my end (I followed the link to Bob Boudreau's website, thanks Ed) by brushing up on the theory and practice of modern digital photography.
The purpose of this thread (for now) is to get some advice and info on which specific camera to buy and which specific post-production software to use relating to and compatable with the aforesaid camera. I think most readers know the parameters involved with the topic at hand, and I'm aware opinions vary, so any response is very helpful.
I'm not looking to spend a ton (see Paragraph 1 above), but I am prepared to spend what it takes; within reason, of course.
Thanks everyone. This is useful.
Then, Robt, you might be able to get away with a bridge camera for under 350$ +/-. A bridge does not have an interchangeable lens system and the heart of it is a zoom lens, which can go from 22 mm to 900 mm.. And, you can get one without a viewfinder which adds to the cost. Make sure you get one that has different shooting modes, and adjustable ISO. One of the modes should be macro. If you wait until the 2019 models come out, you may be able to score really good 2018 model at a discount.
Robert,
.
I am happy to help.
I have a Canon Rebel T-6, and I love it. It is a digital SLR.
I have three lenses, all zoom. One is the standard lens the camera comes with, I think it is 45-85 focal length, and one is a 10-35 focal length wide angle lens. These are the only two suitable for Model Railroad photography. I also have a 100-300 focal length lens for outdoor photography.
This camera has an amazing full-manual mode that is great for model railroading photography. I can set the F-stop down to about F-24 and get very good depth of field. You can adjust the white balance to match the interior lighting, and it has a remote shutter release for perfect exposures.
It can produce a very good picture that meets the specifications Steven Otte sent me for producing images suitable for publication. I have been told that Bill Darnaby uses the same camera for the pictures he takes for MR articles.
Let me know what questions you have. I will do my best to help you learn from my experiences.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Here's some specific cameras worth looking at. All have a large selection of interchangable lenses and are under $600. Some even do 4K Video.
I have a Fujifilm X-M1 (no longer available) that I'm very happy with.
Sony A6000
Panasonic Lumix GX85
Olympus OM-D E-M10 Mark II
Fujifilm X-A5
Smaller is better in the field of macro where tight spaces matter. Remember, overhead shots don't do justice to the typical scale scene; you have to get the appliance and its lens down onto the surface, between trees or buildings, up tight against rock cuts, etc., ideally without having to do much to the scene to make it work (ie, lifting and removing things, displacing them, or adding much). Doing this greatly adds to the life of the layout and its artefacts. Moving stuff and building scenes is probably best on an outdoors or mobile platform, a diorama (in which case I would agree that a DSLR might be better. Might,...only...
I took all my best shots so far, all publishable once they were finished in terms of density, balance, clarity, noise, focus, etc...maybe not so much the modeling, on a small 7 MP camera. It's max f ratio was 8, and it provided 6X zoom. These days, the CANON ELPH 3XX models have top of the line sensors for their price, up to 12 X zoom, and have software and algorithms to render a darkish scene quite well, even show pleasing fireworks in a dark sky.
The ELPH set me back CDN$199 four years ago, while the 7 MP Powershot A710is was almost twice that, minus inflation, eight years earlier.
If you intend to make a living or become a 'serious' photographer (gag), perhaps a $700+ camera is the way to go, but prepare to add $XXXX.XX for lenses to match...yes, plural. If you want something affixed to your belt, or slipped into a shirt pocket, the people who bought the ELPH 330 when I did have universally raved about it. If you want something a bit more capable, larger sensor, able to take photos with less noise or higher ISO, then you have to start ponying up the cash.
Unless you are going to show your product, maybe enter competitions, then something less than USD$500 should have you in an entry level mirrorless ILC (interchangeable lens camera), entry level DSLR, or something like the Powershot SX720, another camera which has lots of very happy customers.
selectorThese days, the CANON ELPH 3XX models have top of the line sensors for their price,
Agreed.
As I mentioned earlier, the big, clumsy DSLRs pretty much stay on the shelf when I want to grab some quick shots of the layout. I bought a Canon ELPH 330 for the missus a few years ago. I use it more often for layout shots than anything else.
Just yesterday I made some shots from inside the turntable pit:
Q2_on_TT by Edmund, on Flickr
No way could I have set one of my bigger Canon models in there.
I have been using Adobe Elements 11 for PP work. I bought it several years ago. Money well spent, IMHO. The latest "cloud-based" software, or is it called an app now, I'm no fan of.
Here's another shot where I dropped the camera through the roof of the roundhouse:
H10-shop2 by Edmund, on Flickr
Try doing that with a toaster-sized camera.
Another fantastic feature of digital photography is the ability to take 20- 30 or more shots at "bracketed" exposure and focal ranges and pick the best ones, then scrap the rest.
gmpullman selector These days, the CANON ELPH 3XX models have top of the line sensors for their price, Agreed. As I mentioned earlier, the big, clumsy DSLRs pretty much stay on the shelf when I want to grab some quick shots of the layout. I bought a Canon ELPH 330 for the missus a few years ago. I use it more often for layout shots than anything else. Just yesterday I made some shots from inside the turntable pit: Q2_on_TT by Edmund, on Flickr No way could I have set one of my bigger Canon models in there. I have been using Adobe Elements 11 for PP work. I bought it several years ago. Money well spent, IMHO. The latest "cloud-based" software, or is it called an app now, I'm no fan of. Here's another shot where I dropped the camera through the roof of the roundhouse: H10-shop2 by Edmund, on Flickr Try doing that with a toaster-sized camera. Another fantastic feature of digital photography is the ability to take 20- 30 or more shots at "bracketed" exposure and focal ranges and pick the best ones, then scrap the rest. Good Luck, Ed
selector These days, the CANON ELPH 3XX models have top of the line sensors for their price,
I've been checking out the Sony A6000, the Canon Rebel T6, and the Canon ELPH 330. They all have a lot of really good features, and they all fit into my price range. I'm leaning toward the Sony A6000.
One feature I'm interested in is being able to operate the camera while tethered to my laptop. That is, to be able to take several (5 or 6 or more) shots at varying exposures from the laptop keyboard without having to physically touch the tripod-mounted camera to change settings or focus distance; not even having to use a remote shutter release. Supposedly, the stacking software can align and synchronize multiple images should there be any discrepancies caused by camera vibration or accidentally bumping the tripod setup, but I'm trying to eliminate even those small issues.
I'm also looking at Helicon Focus. Photoshop has some ability to do stacking (both focus and panorama), but I never jumped on the Ps bandwagon and now it might be too late. You can no longer buy lifetime stand-alone versions of the software, only community cloud-based versions. That whole idea gives me the uneasy feeling of getting assimilated into The Borg. No thanks. Pass.
Anyhow, good advice here. Making progress.
CombineZP is free and does a pretty decent job of stacking:
The Sony A6000 is slipping in the rankings and is about to fall off the list. It has limited abilities for tethering to my computer. It has its own handheld remote control system, but the controller is minimal at best. My window air conditioner and ceiling fan have more sophisticated remotes.
In the meanwhile the Nikon D5300 has emerged and is becoming the favorite. It offers complete functional remote control via laptop or smart phone and is directly supported by Helicon Remote and Helicon Focus. Plus, it is a gateway to all those world-class lenses. And when it's late in the game and the score's tied and everyone else is tired, it's still a Nikon. How could anyone bet against it?
i'm a novice photographer, but have some comments
while you may be looking for specific features of a camera, I'd hate to believe a more expensive camera takes better photos than a less expensive camera just because is costs more. sort of like expected to be better at golf because you're using a more expensive set of clubs.
I see a noticable difference between the Sony DSC HL-10 and Cannon A2600 i have. I'm told the Sony was a nice camera in its day. It has a Lica lens and some sort of hand motion feature. But even using a tripod, the Sony pictures are better than the Cannon's.
i can't image not using a tripod or a well seated camera. Someone years ago said to take casual photos by holding a camera against a door frame.
my observations and those of other is lighting is key. I don't know if there can ever be too much. I can see a big difference between photos taken with sunlight pouring in thru a window and with lamps.
Maybe someone can comment on lamps?
i'm tempted to by a pair of photo lamps, but am still not sure about shadows.
as far as I know, bright light helps with depth of field.
So it seems to me while a good camera is important, it cannot overcome an unsteady base or poor lighting.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregc while you may be looking for specific features of a camera, I'd hate to believe a more expensive camera takes better photos than a less expensive camera just because is costs more. sort of like expected to be better at golf because you're using a more expensive set of clubs.
Yes, I agree with this. Just as getting a new camera and taking better photos won't really improve the quality of my layout. Maybe just the opposite: clearer, higher detailed photos might only serve to show the flaws better.
The cameras I'm looking at all seem to fall into the slightly advanced beginner's category, feature wise and price wise. I'm looking for specific functionality to deal with the issues of indoor macro photography our hobby requires (particularly focus stacking) while still being able to use the camera for other, more traditional situations. And as such, the Nikon is looking pretty good.
I tend to approach these things with the idea of getting 'last year's model': previous versions that were once the hottest thing on wheels but have since been superceded with a newer puppy with a higher model number, but only a few (if any) iterative upgrades. These cameras can do every thing they always could, and that is quite a bit.
I get good results with an ordinary point-n-shoot, Canon SX170IS. It offers an aperture priority mode that lets me set the lens opening down as for as it will go for best depth of field. This requires a long exposure time, which demands a tripod, you cannot hand hold at 1/2 sec exposures. It has a self timer that lets me trigger an exposure in 2 seconds, so my hand on the shutter button won't jiggle the camera and blur the picture. And electrons are free. I can shoot as many pictures as I like.
I have used GIMP for editing. Price is right, it's free. I have never found a decent writeup on how GIMP works, which makes the learning curve a bit steep. But it will do anything, if you can figure out how to make it do it.
Picassa will get the pictures out of the camera and onto your computer. It also does light weight editing, and builds up an photo album on your hard drive which uses ordinary Windows file folders, so you can find your photos using plain old Windows explorer.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
ROBERT PETRICKI'm looking for specific functionality to deal with the issues of indoor macro photography our hobby requires
wonder how John Allen managed with those antiques?
gregcwonder how John Allen managed with those antiques?
Ah, but John was using film. Even average quality lenses have been resolving 200 lines/mm on film for a long time (premium lenses could do 3+ times that. On 35mm film, which is 24x36mm, that's 4,800 x 7,200 which is the equivalent of 34 megapixels.
Digital is just now catching up to the quality John had available.
Robt, if you like the D5300, by all means get it bundled with the 18 - 55 mm lens. Check on two things though, can you tilt/move the view sceen on the back to get the odd angles, and what is the minimum focusing distance when it is set at 18 mm. Add a tripod and a memory card and you are good to go.
bearman Robt, if you like the D5300, by all means get it bundled with the 18 - 55 mm lens. Check on two things though, can you tilt/move the view sceen on the back to get the odd angles, and what is the minimum focusing distance when it is set at 18 mm. Add a tripod and a memory card and you are good to go.
Hey Bear-
Yes, I'm ordering the D5300 with an 18-55 mm lens and a 64 GB chip. And yes, the screen is articulated and swivelable for easy viewing. But, I also plan to use the camera either directly tethered via USB cable to my computer or via WiFi to my Samsung smartphone. That way I'll be able to not only control the exposures but also see the WYSIWYG image on the 17" laptop screen and not worry about scrunching my body into tight spaces despite the convenient movable viewfinder screen on the camera body.
I already have two tripods. One, a moderate duty Velbon aluminum job with four-link telescoping legs and tiltable and locking swivel head. The other, a light duty aluminum surveyor's transit tripod with bubble-leveled tribrach and silky smooth ball bearing rotation. Light duty by survey standards; heavy duty by network TV or studio standards.
I think I'm good to go. Or, at least I'm ready to go, good or not. We'll see.
Thanks.
ROBERT PETRICKIn the meanwhile the Nikon D5300 has emerged and is becoming the favorite. It offers complete functional remote control via laptop or smart phone and is directly supported by Helicon Remote and Helicon Focus.
One great feature of the Helicon Focus software is the 30 day trial period.
https://www.heliconsoft.com/software-downloads/
I used the program last fall and was very impressed with all its features. I wasn't quite ready to make the purchase at that time but I'll be looking into it again soon. I plugged my Canon T5i into a laptop with Helicon Remote and watched the magic begin! There's two programs, oops, sorry, I meant to say APPS. Focus is the stacking software and Remote is the camera control software.
Really neat stuff to watch the camera "do it's thing" making the multiple exposures.
You'll surely have fun. Still, a good photo editing suite will be invaluable, too. I agree about the route Adobe has taken with their "cloud-based" subscription service. Glad I got Elements 11 when I did.
Good luck and have fun, Ed
bearman . . . and what is the minimum focusing distance when it is set at 18 mm.
. . . and what is the minimum focusing distance when it is set at 18 mm.
Uh-oh, I didn't check this out earlier.
It says on the rim of the lens 'infinity to 0.25 m'. That works out to just under ten inches. There's a mark on the rear top of the camera body and I'm assuming that's the focal plane and the zero line for measurements. That means the front edge of the lens can get as close as about seven or eight inches to the nearest point of the subject. Is this correct? Is this suitable for my intended use? Or, do I need to get a special macro lens? The Nikon literature shows sharp crisp closeup photos of small bugs and whatnot. As small as N Scale trains are, they're a lot bigger and a lot longer than bugs. Do you suppose they set up the camera at least ten inches or so from the insects?
I don't have the camera in hand. It arrives Friday. You can be sure I'll make a few tests. And report back.