mlehman dfisher0065 Unrelated question- when will my posts stop having to be approved? I thought it was just the first one, but my second one took awhile to show up too! I think you need 10 to get to unmoderated status. Keep this thread going and keep commenting and you'll be there quickly.
dfisher0065 Unrelated question- when will my posts stop having to be approved? I thought it was just the first one, but my second one took awhile to show up too!
I think you need 10 to get to unmoderated status. Keep this thread going and keep commenting and you'll be there quickly.
Rich
Alton Junction
When I complete my layout, I will concentrate on detailing and weathering all my cars and locos.
Of course, I started on my 4x8' N scale layout in November 2006, and over 11 years later, it's still not finished :)
This hobby is really several hobbies wrapped in one. You get to do wood work, model building, electronics, painting, lighting and other electrical, computers, study history and more. It’s whatever you make it. Some people like the building process, some like running their trains, some like being in a group or club. Some like it all. One guy just liked building bridges so he built several seven foot tall one foot deep shadow boxes along his walls and each one featured a bridge with beautiful mountain scenery and a tunnel on each side which lead to the next scene. It was like 3D art. To him is was all about building. To answer your question if some people buy layouts; Some people do pay someone else to build their layout but most people want to do it themselves because that is part of the enjoyment of the hobby. I suspect that the people who do pay someone else either have really good paying jobs but have no free time or perhaps they have a physical disability that doesn’t allow them to construct the bench work etc.
dfisher0065Unrelated question- when will my posts stop having to be approved? I thought it was just the first one, but my second one took awhile to show up too!
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
mobilman44 Hi, and welcome to the forum! Your question is something many of us have faced and there is no single answer. I've been playing with trains since the 1950s, and had a handful of layouts before my current one was built in 2008-9. From my experience and view of others, here are the possibilities: - the builder will loose interest in the project and never complete the layout. - the builder will finish (get it running w/scenery) the layout and eventually get tired of running trains. - the builder will finish the layout and totally enjoy operating the layout for a long time, enhancing it as he sees fit. - the builder will finish the layout, and eventually realize he could do it a lot better with his newly acquired skills and experience, and take down the layout and build a "new and improved" version. I'm sure there are other outcomes, but the above are what I have seen and a few I've experienced...........
Hi, and welcome to the forum!
Your question is something many of us have faced and there is no single answer. I've been playing with trains since the 1950s, and had a handful of layouts before my current one was built in 2008-9.
From my experience and view of others, here are the possibilities:
- the builder will loose interest in the project and never complete the layout.
- the builder will finish (get it running w/scenery) the layout and eventually get tired of running trains.
- the builder will finish the layout and totally enjoy operating the layout for a long time, enhancing it as he sees fit.
- the builder will finish the layout, and eventually realize he could do it a lot better with his newly acquired skills and experience, and take down the layout and build a "new and improved" version.
I'm sure there are other outcomes, but the above are what I have seen and a few I've experienced...........
I just saw this reply after posting my own reply.
I have to agree with everything said in that reply.
Welcome to the world of model railroading.
I haven't read any of the replies, but here is my take.
Your dilemma sounds like mine 14 years ago. I started with a 4x8 sheet of plywood on four 2x4 legs in my basement, and I quickly expanded to an 8x12 layout. That subsequently grew to a 12x25 layout and ultimately to a P-shaped 25x42 layout.
I'm not into operations and I am a lone wolf. I easily grow bored with running trains on a continuous loop double mainline, in spite of yards and sidings included on the layout. So, now, I am beginning a complete rebuild of my existing layout to form a new and improved layout. I figure that it will take at least 3 years to complete.
So, take heed. Get out now while you still can.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I presume we are talking here about H0, 1/87 scale. In this scale, and I doubt in any other scale, a mortal being will ever be able to build a layout with an accurate scale. For example, the tightest curve in reality would scale down to 2 meter radius, roughly 6,5 feet. Therefore in MRR it is all about compromise. What makes a layout better or nicer- although it is purely a subjective issue- is how these compromises in accuracy are hidden within the layout. In most of the cases this is done by attention to the details and careful weathering. You can hide tight curves in tunnel, under bridges, or behind buildings. You can build streets and buildings across the layout, not parallel to the tracks, to give depth. You can add more realism to basic oval by replacing straight track by curved flexible track. You can build an 'S' on your 4*8 board (actually an '8' with the half hidden) instead of a basic oval. I am sure you will find numerous exampls on how to build attractive layouts on 4*8 board if you dig in model railway books and magazines.RegardsWalid
dfisher0065Is that large enough for interesting operations
The problem that I see with that track plan as far as operations goes is that there are lots of sidings but there is very little space left to model the actual industries. Where do you put the buildings?
A second issue is that the plan is designed for Marklin sectional track. Marklin allows for much tighter curves than North American standards because it is themed on European railroading. In other words, most of the cars will be fairly short, lots with only two axles. If you are modelling North American operations on that track plan you will be restricted to shorter locomotives and rolling stock. Longer stuff would look very toy like going around the curves even if it was able to run on those curves.
There is also a lot of hidden track in that plan. You will want to design the scenery so that the sections over the covered track can be removed. Otherwise recovering a car or locomotive that has derailed in a tunnel could be really difficult.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Build a small layout, with some turnouts, ballasted track, scenery and structres. Understand it doesnt have to be complete, it’s going to have a ton of mistakes, and understand that mistakes are not just OK, they are beneficial. Eventually you’ll get to a point where you’ve hit a “learned enough” plateau and one of two things will happen: you will get excited about doing a more elaborate layout, or you will look at it and think “a big chunk of it is gonna wind up in a dumpster in a few years/decades so why bother.” And there’s your answer to how into it you are. BUT that has to be tempered with reality: space available, finances, etc. In my current situation, I’m thinking about a much larger layout in the next 2 years. I have the land and the funds to build a 24x48 foot addition, but am I THAT into it? I just dont know yet. Need to put amother year or 2 into the current layout first.
As far as scenery, it requires less artististic skill than most people think: it requires an eye for authenticity. For example, weeds don’t grow in busy mainline trcks, but they might almost obscure a nearly abandoned spur. Likewise, weathering structures is not as painstaking as model cars or planes. A bit of slop can be a good thing (No offense the the contest level modelers, that’s a different ballgame).
dfisher0065 I am a terrible "artist", but looking at some of the spectacular scenes online, makes me want to at least try
I am a terrible "artist", but looking at some of the spectacular scenes online, makes me want to at least try
A lot of the scenery material is relatively cheap and you get a decent amount for your buck. You'll probably surprise yourself with your abilities. If it's not just right, usually you can scrape it off and re-do. Lots of videos and articles on the internetting with good tips and tricks.
Have a good time!
T e d
When I finish my layout, I'll run it.
I'm basically a armchair modeler who collects trains and reads magazines, books, watching train videos and designing track plans.
It took me over 17 years to actually build my layout. I was very happy when I started it last September.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
Yeah, I understand those were generalizations, but as you put general sizes on each category, I was wondering if you thought those kind of operations could be accomplished with that size layout.
I like the building and designing most, which is where my concern comes from- what do I do when it's done? I think with a complicated enough setup though, I could keep myself entertained with the operation portion as well.
I haven't been to a show, but I think my desire to get into this is my great-grandfathers O scale layout, which was probably a 20 x 30 size.
Yeah, that plan I linked to was overly complicated, so I made one with a much smaller yard and sidings, but keeping the general structure and scheme.
Unrelated question- when will my posts stop having to be approved? I thought it was just the first one, but my second one took awhile to show up too!
dfisher0065 Wow, thank you everybody for the responses. Natually, I have a ton of follow up questions, but I think for me, the layout design and construction (especially the electrical work) is what interests me most. I am a terrible "artist", but looking at some of the spectacular scenes online, makes me want to at least try (I have on multiple occasions looked at pictures that took me way too long to figure out if they were real or not). 1- Size - I am looking at an L shape about 10'x8' for HO. I made a layout with online software that somewhat resembles this: http://www.scarm.info/layouts/track_plans.php?ltp=71. Is that large enough for interesting operations, or what Doughlass above called "Branch Line Operation"? 2- Assuming the above size, How many scenes could reasonably fit onto that? I was thinking 3 (small town, farm, and mountain/mine separating). Is that too much for the space? 3- Do people actually buy completed layouts? I would think most would want to build their own, but if I knew I had a reasonable chance to sell it if I got bored, it would go a long way to making me comfortable with jumping in. Thanks again for the input, this being the internet I expected half the responses to be sarcastic or condescending. You all are great!!
Wow, thank you everybody for the responses. Natually, I have a ton of follow up questions, but I think for me, the layout design and construction (especially the electrical work) is what interests me most. I am a terrible "artist", but looking at some of the spectacular scenes online, makes me want to at least try (I have on multiple occasions looked at pictures that took me way too long to figure out if they were real or not).
1- Size - I am looking at an L shape about 10'x8' for HO. I made a layout with online software that somewhat resembles this: http://www.scarm.info/layouts/track_plans.php?ltp=71. Is that large enough for interesting operations, or what Doughlass above called "Branch Line Operation"?
2- Assuming the above size, How many scenes could reasonably fit onto that? I was thinking 3 (small town, farm, and mountain/mine separating). Is that too much for the space?
3- Do people actually buy completed layouts? I would think most would want to build their own, but if I knew I had a reasonable chance to sell it if I got bored, it would go a long way to making me comfortable with jumping in.
Thanks again for the input, this being the internet I expected half the responses to be sarcastic or condescending. You all are great!!
My categorizations were meant to be very broad descriptions of the types of layouts that generally interest folks in our hobby. Its not meant to be an explanation of what you should do in a given amount of space.
What do think you like best about the hobby? I think that's the theme of the responses.
Have you visited other layouts? Have you been fortunate enough to go to a train show and see displays?
If so, what did you like best about the layouts you've seen.
The plan you linked looks like it would be used for lots or cars and two or more trains moving at the same time, because the space is filled up with a lot of track. Is this what you like?
That goal could probably be accomplished with a less complex plan and less track.
Try searching the net for images of HO scale layouts and see which ones interest you, and take note of the amount of track within a given amount of space.
- Douglas
dfisher0065My question/concern, is once the layout has been built, what do I do with it? I realize it will probably take years to be complete, but then does it just gather dust in a corner? What do all of you do with completed sets?
In my 46 years in the hobby I have never completed a layout. The reasons vary due to moves, family obligations, etc. But I have had a layout under construction for most of those years.
I'm in the process of moving and hope to start my next layout (11th or 12th - maybe more) in a month or so. But I enjoy the planning, I enjoy the building process, I enjoy building models, and I enjoy running trains. At age 70, I don't expect to finish this next layout (17 x 36), but I will have trains running. Hopefully, there will be some buildings and scenery.
If I do manage to finish this layout, I have enough room in my basement to build a couple more smaller layouts - maybe in a different scale and/or different theme.
Paul
Mine has a lot of tweaking that is required, but if it is ever finished, I will run more operating sessions than I do now.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
Sometimes certain end goals really can only be attained in certain "phases" of the hobby.For example, my dream layout would be a massive late-1950's early 60's era recreation of my local area in the intermountain west. Union Pacific and Western Pacific in play with seperate mainlines, interchanges with the Rio Grande and Southern Pacific along the way; and branch lines dedicated to the region's shortlines, the Salt Lake Garfield & Western, the Tooele Valley Railway, and the Nevada Northern. Awesome idea, lots of operating potential with unique freights and streamlined passenger trains, and a time machine to a time I have never seen but wish I could have.But is that what I am building now? No. I have a small shelf switching layout that I have been building at my parent's house. It is set in the intermountain west, but in the modern era; so I can mimic what I see in the real world (SD40N's working small industrial parks). Is it my end goal? No. But it is a stepping stone to that end goal. I can play around and goof up this layout, I couldn't afford to goof up a massive dream layout like the one I mentioned prior, but this switching layout is my place to try things out and learn. Its got a good enough design to handle some operations, so it will keep me satisfied in that regard too. Now am I going to finish this layout and jump straight into that massive dream layout? Nope, not doing that either. I might start collecting rolling stock for that dream layout's era to slowly build up a fleet, but I'd rather continue building small and medium layouts for the foresable future. I want to dabble in Free-Mo someday. I want to maybe buy some imported HOm gauge stuff so I can make a tribute to the railroads I saw while living in Argentina. I want to make a small N scale layout, something I can put into a coffee table and have in a living room. I might explore my other hobby; Lego collecting, a bit by mixing it with trains with a goofy Lego city with track built to operate Lego trains on. Maybe I'll take a crack at Lionel 3 rail for a Christmas display. I want to dabble in live steam, seeing if I can be succesful at building a 7 1/2" gauge locomotive. I want to build a room sized mainline layout, to test out CTC signalling and animations before I go onto that dream mega layout which will require multiple CTC controlled lines. If I ever get to go on a trip to Britain, expect me to arrive home with some OO scale stuff too and wanting a place to play with that! None of those layouts ideas are my end goal. But I see them as stepping stones so someday, 20-30 years in the future; I can finally move into that large dream home with that large dream basement with the skills I need to take a crack at the dream. So I guess to answer the question, the end goal is what you make it to be!
You don’t have to wait until the layout is finished to play the operation game. If you did hardly anyone would ever get to play. A model railroad takes a lifetime to build. It’s best to start operating it as soon as you have part of the track laid. That way you can test the track and your design while you are still building it. Rome wasn’t built in a day and neither is a model railroad. Most people start with a very low standard for scenery and gradually improve it over time. What starts out as plywood or foam later turns into white plaster mountains, then green covered fields and then forest. Structures go from cardboard mockups to plastic models which later get painted and have detail parts and lighting inside. To play the operation game you either need a way to create a switch list or you need a car card system with waybills to create demand for the cars and cards to represent those cars. I use a simple car card system that my son could understand when he was only in first or second grade. The waybills list the online industry and the other location is simply east or west (of the modeled part of the layout). I use a 7 day system so there is some variation instead of just reliving the same day over and over again. This can represent seasonal shipments of produce with some days having a high demand for cars while other days the demand is low or none. Some days I like to play the operation game while other days I want to work on improving the scenery. A model railroad is never finished but the end game is played while you are still building it. You sort of have to ‘stop and smell the roses’ along the way.
I think you have to want to operate your model railroad.
For some, the challenge is building, the benchwork, the track and the scenery is the goal. Having done so, they change themes and build another one or move to other building hobbies, ships or planes or dioramas. Isn't Pele Sooborg (sp) the guy that keeps changing layouts?
If you already suspect you will grow tired of it and it will sit around taking up space and gathering dust, it's probably not the hobby for you.
I suspect if I hired a custom builder and $XXX,000 dollars later I had a gorgeous completed layout, I would soon tire of it. I would have to side with a former president who said "You didn't build that" Instead I want rock castings, that I do particularly well, there will be mistakes that maybe I will only see, but it's going to be my creation.
No matter who builds it, you still need that imagination, that you had when you were 8 watching your train go around a simple oval.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
For my own , I'm easing back into the hobby after about a decade absence, which was preceeded by half-hearted attempts at no-budget railroading. As Doughless and others pointed out above, most people fit into a certain bracket with regards to their end-goal. But something else to consider is whether you're into the hobby on your own or if you're working with friends and/or family.
For me, building and running the layout will include not just myself, but also my father-in-law and eventually (I hope), my son. So I asked dad what his ideas were, and I tried to make an educated guess about what my son may enjoy once he's old enough. So, my build has a multi-pronged end-game. Operations me, railfanning for my son and father-in-law (and me, at times, I'm sure), and model building and detailing for all of us.
So that's something to think about as well. If you're building it for yourself, awesome. But if there are others who will enjoy it with you, ask them about what they see as the end result. Their input may change the way you think about the goals for your layout.
- Adam
When all else fails, wing it!
Lots of good advice here. I liked selector's summary in particular.
selectorThe answer, as is often the case, is....it depends. What is your aim, or set of aims, in the hobby, or in any endeavor for that matter? Your aim bespeaks your motivation, and most people respond to motivation with advancement along a defined route of some kind, a process, a method. Along this route or process are milestones or indicators of progress toward an outcome, even if that outcome remains undefined until very late.
Essentially, define your expectations of the hobby.
What parts do you enjoy?
What do you find difficult, but want to know more?
What would you rather just avoid?
What prototype (not becessarily a single road, it can be more complex, like an area, era, or industry, for instance) is most interesting to you.
How much time/space/budget do you have available?
Model railroading is rather unique in that there's so much diversity in what is available or can be done that there's no reason to do what you really don't like and every reason to pursue what you most enjoy. Sometimes having extra funding helps accomplish what you need, but often enough its also about what you're willing to invest in time and effort. Finding that balance is what makes for an enjoyable hobby.
And you don't need to decide all this right now, try some different things. There is no single answer and only you can decide what works for you.
If you aren't happy with a layout - don't be afraid to tear down and rebuild. Some do it to make something better in the same place, others, because they have to move. I've moved quite a few times and hoping to stay put for a while now.
Here is my last layout getting torn down. Some commented it must be a bummer to tear down after all that work - it was, but I'm looking forward to something better and I did learn things from the last layout.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I agree with those who say "A layout is never really finished."
I'm a scenery guy. I've been back in the hobby after a 40-year absence, and this time around I discovered that I got most of my enjoyment from building the scenery through which my trains run. I've kind of kept track of my time as I've built my layout, and discovered that it takes me about a month to complete a square foot of scenery. As sections of my layout were completed, I added more. I've been at this since 2004, and I'm not done yet.
And then, there are a lot of very serious model railroaders who are only interested in operations. They craft elaborate track plans and lay track, but seldom get to "decorate" their layouts with much more than shoe boxes with "Acme Manufacturing" written on them to support their operations. They are happy with that.
Right now, my layout is in storage anticipating a move. That will mean reconfiguring much of it. Some scenes will disappear forever, and others will be created. There will be a new track plan. I'm looking forward to it.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
There are so many different levels or slots to MR, you never can tell where you might end up.I know a fellow who started a layout,and started to research his prefered line. He hasn't built a model in years,got so involed in the history of RRs
My nephew started out with my hand me downs, and now owns a MR manufactureing co.
Myself; I'm a builder, I get my fix from building. When my last layout was done, at least in my eyes, it sat untill I had to tear it down for a furnence replacement. I am now enjoying a rebuild.
Should it ''the layout/hobby'' ever gets old to you. So what? Hopefully you enjoyed building it, sell it, toss it, move on.
Operate it.
I think of operations as four distinct methods or themes (others may see it differently).
Railfan. This is a layout where the goal is to watch as many different trains (even getting into modeling specific locomotives and specific rolling stock pieces) running through the scene(s) that you built. Some folks will go so far as to use this as a method for photography, sort of a scale representation of the real train pictures you would see on RRpictures archive and other internet sites. Or, its a way to show off and run models that you may have built or detailed. There really is no "operating plan" to a layout designed for railfanning purposes. Many experienced modelers who have been in the hobby build layouts like this simply because they love watchiing trais run through scenes.
Mainline Operations. Think of a basement sized layout where specific trains of a specific prototype (or freelanced) are run at mainline speeds from one point to the next using a specific timetable. Layouts like this are usually large, although they don't have to be, and devote a good amount of space to hidden "staging" areas to hold trains before they are released on schedule to the visible part of the layout. Many modelers who are into modeling a specific railroad will go so far as to build a layout that represents a specific place and run their trains on a schedule just like the prototype.
Switching layout: These are typical smaller layouts that are built for the purpose of taking cars from an assembly area, like an interchange or yard, and swapping them out with cars spotted at industries throughout the layout. Many of these layouts do not have continuous running possibilities and are more of a back and forth operation (although clever design can give them a loop shape and allow for make them continuous "railfan"running). Modelers with limited space tend to build switching layouts since they can be built on a narrow shelf.
Branch Line Operation: Sort of a combination of a switching layout and a Mainline layout. Sometimes a bedroom sized layout where the switching districts have some distance between them as to allow some mainline running in between.
Its wise to have an operations goal in mind before you commit to building a layout. Most of the operating interest folks develop in the hobby will fall under one of the above categories. Figure out what you think you would want, then the internet or professional or experienced modelers can help you plan a layout that fits your goal. There is an art and a science to it that will help if you can learn them a bit.
I have a very basic setup right now (couple trains on a 4x8 sheet of plywood), but I have been thinking a lot about expanding it, and actually modelling something other than a basement sheet of plywood! My question/concern, is once the layout has been built, what do I do with it? I realize it will probably take years to be complete, but then does it just gather dust in a corner? What do all of you do with completed sets?
This is totally up to you and how "into" the hobby you are.
Setting up a 4x8, depending on what you do with it may have a limited ability to occupy you. One could do a lot of scenery and detailing to a 4x8 layout but operations may or may not keep you interested on a layout that size.
For many of us here, we were infected with the hobby often from a young age, and it seems we are always finding ways to occupy ourself and there really is no "end game". In the older Model Railroader magazines, a recurring theme is "a model railroad is never finished". In other words, layouts are often built and partly torn down or modified ad infinitum.
Obviously operations is what many model railroaders do when they have a more or less "complete" layout. The trick for many of us is building a layout with enough operational potential. Ideally having space enough to run some satisfyingly long trains and operate them to simulate real train activities is the goal.
Also, don't discount the notion of building a layout, gaining some experience and then tearing it down and building another, possilby bigger layout. Many of us have built multiple layouts - thats normal. I've built the following so far:
16x19' garage layout
14x25' basement layout
10x18' basement layout
This is the last layout torn down last summer:
Planning a basement layout now for a 15x33.5 foot room.
The answer, as is often the case, is....it depends. What is your aim, or set of aims, in the hobby, or in any endeavor for that matter? Your aim bespeaks your motivation, and most people respond to motivation with advancement along a defined route of some kind, a process, a method. Along this route or process are milestones or indicators of progress toward an outcome, even if that outcome remains undefined until very late.
Some enjoy crafting dioramas, and then inserting them into spaces left for that purpose on a larger layout. Some are content with running trains around an un-scenicked slab of plywood, wires snaking here and there and all. Some like crafting fine scale structures and items of rolling stock from scratch. Some sell what they make for other purposes. Some, like me, labour and struggle through the creation of a reasonably nice layout (by my terms) only to get to the point where they can enjoy their trains running in convincing scenery. Some take years to build amazing empires and then run operations sessions where they literally run a revenue-generating prototypical rail line, alone or with large groups who meet regularly because they share the same motivation.
Some like photographing their creations and entering contests. Some like to create distant time periods in history, or create a fine scale representation of a very limited space along a railroad's right of way.
Each of us has the obligation to enjoy what we wish to when we enter a hobby like this one. It's a journey, sometimes short, sometimes ending only in one's death.