I'm starting to sound like a broken record with this Duplex, but I wired it and put it together for a test, and it won't run. There are no signs of life in it at all. I know it's not my track or power pack, because all of my other locos run just fine on it. Any ideas on what could be causing this? The instructions I have aren't all that detailed, could someone perhaps post an actual picture of what the completed wiring looks like on a Bowser T1 please? (it's the twin motor version, and I'm a novice when it comes to wiring)
Thanks in advance, again.
Have you checked the mechanism with straight variable DC to each motor, then to the two common leads? Then checked first continuity, then shorts in the tender wiring?
Verify that the mechanism runs 'electrically' and that good power is present up to any control connections or decoder sockets that expect it. Then put the engine and tender on the track and verify the same from the rails.
do you have the insulated wheels on the Engineers right side? And a tender connected with the insulated wheels on engineers left?
If you have a short it could be that one of the driver sets is reversed.
Wolf359 I'm starting to sound like a broken record with this Duplex, but I wired it and put it together for a test, and it won't run. There are no signs of life in it at all. I know it's not my track or power pack, because all of my other locos run just fine on it. Any ideas on what could be causing this? The instructions I have aren't all that detailed, could someone perhaps post an actual picture of what the completed wiring looks like on a Bowser T1 please? (it's the twin motor version, and I'm a novice when it comes to wiring) Thanks in advance, again.
trade yea , im putting together a big boy 4019 that crashed to the floor & exploded so i have to put himpty dumpty back together again
Overmod Have you checked the mechanism with straight variable DC to each motor, then to the two common leads? Then checked first continuity, then shorts in the tender wiring? Verify that the mechanism runs 'electrically' and that good power is present up to any control connections or decoder sockets that expect it. Then put the engine and tender on the track and verify the same from the rails.
Make sure the motors work first, as stated above. Did you solder the leads to the brushes?
Believe it or not, I found New Bowser DC-71 instructions on the floor this morning and put it in my pocket. There is a section on the T-1, which may or may not apply:
T-1 only. Wire the motors together by soldering the right side wire of the front motor to the left brush on the rear motor. The wire from the left brush of rear motor is fastened to the frame under any screw. Soldering [sic] the the left side wire of the front motor to the right brush on the rear motor. The wire from the right brush of rear motor is fastened to the tender frame.
Gary
A picture is worth a thousand words....
We need some more info on your system. Are you running DC or DCC? Does the T1 have a decoder? Do other locomotives run OK?
One possibility comes to mind. If you are running DC, and the T1 has a dual mode decoder so it will work on either DCC or DC, that kind of decoder typically needs 6 to 8 volts from the DC power pack to get running. About half throttle.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
With the motor set aside, the gear towers/drives in place and connected to the drivers normally, and all linkage and rods in place, will your engine roll free-hand when you push it along the rails? If not, you have at least spared the motor from rough handling in the future.
The T1 is a kit from Bowser, its HO scale and regular direct current with no computer chips or anything like that. All of my other locos run just fine, and the mechanism rolls freely without the motors attached.
[Two separate threads by OP merged into one thread by moderator. Below comment extract from out-of-place post for cohesive purposes.]
All of the insulated wheels are where they are supposed to be, and the motors do work when a jumper wire is touched to the commutator brushes. What do I do, and what am I missing? Help!
Hi Wolf,
I just merged two of your recent threads. In the future, can you please post updates in the same thread rather than creating multiple identical threads every few days? That way you don't have to repeat yourself and what you've already tried should someone be unfamiliar with your previous threads. Anyone interested in the topic/saga can then more easily follow the progress linearly through one thread rather than trying to "connect the dots" between multiple threads.
Thanks for your cooperation...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
If you wire power directly to the motors separately, do they run? How about together? If you connect power right to the loco and tender, do the motors run? I guess the question is if it's a wiring problem or a pickup problem.
Boring old guy story: Someone gave me an old Mantua Pacific from an estate. The draw bar was busted, so I made a new one. I tried it on my test track, and...nothing. So I put power right to the loco with one lead, and the other to the tender, and still nothing. I tried power to the loco with one lead, and the other directly to the tender motor lead, and it ran, so I tried power to loco side track (right) and other to tender lead, and it ran. It was clear the problem was pickup on the tender, so I spent some time cleaning and polishing the contact points on the tender.
TLDR: you've got to try and break it down to figure out where the problem is. The mechanism sounds good, so props for that. Check the power and pickup.
Are the motors open-frame type or can motors? If they're open-frame, one brush needs to be insulated from the common spring which applys the pressure to keep them in contact with the commutator. A simple thing, but easy to overlook.
Wayne
Looking at the instruction sheet I see that there is specifically a front motor (1007) and rear motor (1004) as shown on P. 11.
Of course each of these motors must turn cw and ccw in order for the worms to turn the drivers the same directions.
You can see that the wire lead is soldered to the left brush arm (as oriented after mounting) on both motors. How about attaching the "right" wires under the brush holder screw as shown? This is what Wayne is refering to above. Sometimes these open frame motors have one brush jumpered to the frame. Maybe Bowser is refering to the "right" pickup which would be the locomotive frame itself?
The black wires shown in the diagram are both daisy-chained and connected to the tender pickup so there has to be a way to get power from the engine frame to the motor brush holder on the right.
Bowser specifically says to connect right wires under the screw as shown. Although no "Right Wires" are actually shown on the diagram.
Have you looked into that?
Just a suggestion.
Page 7 and 11 here: (Scroll down to T1)
http://hoseeker.net/bowser.html
T1_Motor by Edmund, on Flickr
This diagram shows the same part number for both motors. (Typo on page 11?)
Good Luck, Ed
Was about to post and tell you how I did the wiring process 3 years ago until I just recently found out that the instructions clearly said:
It intends you to screw in the tab of the wire where indicated by the arrow. Make sure this connects to the non-insulated drive wheels (Right side of the locomotive) while the connection to the tender is on the insulated side (Left side).
Most steam locomotives have electrical connections like these, the engine picks up one side, while the tender picks up the other side. The way I did it is pretty much the same. (Excuse the sloppy job, it was my very first time putting together a non-ready to run kit and a Bowser one at that. I'm in the process of rewiring & upgrading it as I now have more experience than before.)
Also, I suggest you carefully solder the worm gear to the motor's shaft if you can (Remember to leave room for the rubber tube!) Bowser glued these on and they would come off if it went through rough handling (Like mine did, whoops!)
Hungsen
Drakonikia Was about to post and tell you how I did the wiring process 3 years ago until I just recently found out that the instructions clearly said:
If it has the new DC-71 motors...Do we know how old this kit is? There are different instructions getting thrown around here.
Do the motors have two leads soldered to the brushes, or just one?
New style DC-71
Two leads, what I posted above or what's above should work.
If it only has one lead, it gets power through the frame, and the HO Seeker instructions should work.
Thank you everyone, especially to Drakonikia and garya for the close up, high quality photos of the motors/wiring. It would appear that my wiring is incorrect. This might take a little time to fix, so I'm not sure when my next update will be. By the way tstage, I'm sorry about the same thread thing. I didn't see my Duplex Part 3 post on the first page of this section for a few days, so I assumed that it wasn't relevant anymore. Now I know that's not the case. Thank you for pointing that out to me.
Thanks again, Elias.
Elias
One more wiring thing...on the DC71 motor,
the black wires are soldered directly to the spring tensioned brush holders on the motor. If the wires are moved around the connection between the brushes and the copper commutator are opened. Make sure the brushes are touching the copper. Check the rotation and watch the brushes to verify the brushes dont touch the copper armature wires. The armature wires are delicate and if broken the motor wont produce any power.
Has anyone verified the precise technical difference between the two stock numbers of motor?
From what I have seen so far, I suspect the two motors rotate the same way if connected with the same polarity, but have the 'insulated' brush on opposite sides of the holder. Do we have close-up pictures of the top and sides of the motors in this specific build yet?
graymatter Elias One more wiring thing...on the DC71 motor, the black wires are soldered directly to the spring tensioned brush holders on the motor. If the wires are moved around the connection between the brushes and the copper commutator are opened. Make sure the brushes are touching the copper. Check the rotation and watch the brushes to verify the brushes dont touch the copper armature wires. The armature wires are delicate and if broken the motor wont produce any power.
Thank you for the additional tips. I haven't started the re-wiring yet, I need to buy some more solder and a few tools next time I go to the hardware store, but I'll be sure to post an update on my progress once I get back to work on it.
garya Drakonikia Was about to post and tell you how I did the wiring process 3 years ago until I just recently found out that the instructions clearly said: If it has the new DC-71 motors...Do we know how old this kit is? There are different instructions getting thrown around here. Do the motors have two leads soldered to the brushes, or just one? New style DC-71 Two leads, what I posted above or what's above should work. If it only has one lead, it gets power through the frame, and the HO Seeker instructions should work.
Here's an old DC-71 motor from a Bowser kit I bought off eBay:
Note it only has one lead. The other brush gets power through the frame. Bowser changed the motors to two leads to make DCC wiring easier, but if you're running DC, the old method is simpler and easier--the screw mounting the motor connects it to the loco body, which picks up off the right rail.
garya Drakonikia Was about to post and tell you how I did the wiring process 3 years ago until I just recently found out that the instructions clearly said: If it has the new DC-71 motors...Do we know how old this kit is? There are different instructions getting thrown around here. Do the motors have two leads soldered to the brushes, or just one?
A bit of history, skip to the wiring below if needed.
The Year on both my engine and tender shells are marked 1997 (As old as I am), probably the latest & last tooling type before Bowser stopped production of their steam loco kits around 2010. It should be at least a 34-year upgraded tooling difference from when they first bought the assets from Penn Line in 1963, who produced their own T-1 (Variants had either Spoked or Boxpok Drivers, both inaccurate) before bankruptcy.
Earlier Bowser variants from Penn Line's tooling always came with a brass sheet low-side tender and double smokestack engine shell, some engine shell variants had cast-on air pumps, separate screwed-on ladders, or full casting where you needed to drill the holes for the details yourself.
Completely different from the newer single smokestack and die-cast high-side tender, and factory drilled holes.
Some old eBay listings on Worthpoint that show the design of the instruction cover for the earlier kits on the third image:
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/bowser-prr-pennsy-1-duplex-4-4-422016574 (Note the separate ladders in the parts bag and the instructions show to screw them in.)
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/bowser-ho-nib-prr-4-4-1-duplex-t-469469178 (Full cover of the same instructions. Earlier kit with green foam like my PRR 2-10-0 I-1 kit, later foam were dark grey.)
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/bowser-ho-prr-1-duplex-4-4-steam-479622223 (Updated design of the instruction.)
Either way, the instructions on both HOseeker.net and Bowser-trains.com are the same compared to mine. So if Wolf/Elias has the latest one, we've been giving the correct instructions for help.
And yes, mine's came with both DC-71 Motors (#1004) with two leads soldered to the brushes as you pictured (Hard to see, but arrows indicate the tabs.) I had saved the seller's picture of them:
The corrected wiring pic, the left side is unchanged from my previous post:
((Shell holders (#5116) were removed to show wiring, you NEED them otherwise a short happens.) Penn Line sheet metal tender is shown as an example, it's still the same electrical-wise.)
Warning: The Tender frame of the die-cast tender is the weakest part of the newer kit and the most susceptible to zinc rot/pest. I've seen numerous kits on eBay having the frame warped & bending out of the shell, or broken, or missing. The worst one I saw was the back of the tender being split open by said frame. My shell had groove marks from where the frame dug in.
(Before and After. Had to sacrifice mine's to get the wheels out. I've managed to reverse engineer the dimensions with what I had, thankfully.)
Tinning the wire tabs. Skip if you'd like.
You definitely should tin the wire tabs with solder since they're made of Brass, anyone in the hobby SHOULD know the conductivity of Brass track when it oxidizes. Make sure you have a way of heatsinking it as to not undo the connection with the wire. Electronic Helping hands aid in holding the wire and acting as a heatsink. Use a desoldering braid with flux to suck up the excess solder to ensure a smooth fit.
You won't be able to easily flux and tin the motor's screw with solder as it's stainless steel, I tried, it's not galvanized with a zinc coating. Better to screw it into place or solder it to a brass part of the motor that won't be in the way. But mark the polarity and remove the magnet first as a safety measure as the heat you're working with will easily cause the magnet to lose its magnetism fast (Already a quick loss at above 176 degrees Fahrenheit.)
One more thing Elias, going by your "Part 2: Body shell repairs". If you ever feel unsatisfied about the replacement ladders, Bowser still sells both for the earlier shells under Bowser-orders.com, under T-1 designation and numbered #1-5112 & #1-5113 (Picture is shown in the first link above.) These are screwed to the shell rather than glued or soldered. Just be warned, it costs $12 for both and the standard shipping is another $10 from Pennsylvania ((Location of Bowser-trains) I'm a New York City resident by the way.)
If I ever get around to continuing my project, I'll remember to message you when I reverse engineer the dimensions of the cab ladders.
Drakonikia Either way, the instructions on both HOseeker.net and Bowser-trains.com are the same compared to mine. So if Wolf/Elias has the latest one, we've been giving the correct instructions for help.
Yes and no. I quoted directions above from a new DC-71 motor, and they do not match examples from HO seeker quoted and pictured in this thread.