Depressed Center Flat Car with Load
Went back to storage trailer and picked up that transformer car again so I could put it onto my new 24" radius test track.
Just for the heck of it I decided to put it on a piece of Bachmann 18" track I happen to have setting around. This car could negotiate this track...
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
gdelmoro Ever purchase a locomotive or 85’ passenger car advertised by the manufacturer to run on 18” curves only to find it regularly derails on 20, 24 or even 26” curves? It’s happened to me. So the question is what’s a produt’s real minimum radius? How do manufacturers come up with the number?
Ever purchase a locomotive or 85’ passenger car advertised by the manufacturer to run on 18” curves only to find it regularly derails on 20, 24 or even 26” curves?
It’s happened to me. So the question is what’s a produt’s real minimum radius? How do manufacturers come up with the number?
Getting back to answering your original question,based on 50+ years of experience and lots of testing. I get trouble-free operation on my mainline with a minimum 30" radius curve. I run full scale 80-85 ft passenger (Walters,BLI,Soho) equiment with diaphrams and body mounted Kadee couplers. I operate at scale speeds 79-110 smph with no issues. I agree with many that track is the problem 80-90% of the time.
Lastly, From my experience, 24" radius is the absolute reliable minimum for HO operation. The 18" and 22" radius curves are artifacts from the early days of HO in the 50's. Most of the early rolling stock was basically tinplate slide ruled down to 1/87.
Modelling big time 1950's railroading in western Ohio.
Member of the Crooked Rails Model Railroad Club,NMRA and the TCA.
It looks like you have gone above and beyond with testing for radius. Seems sufficient now - just don't succumb to the peralysis of analysis.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Heavy Duty Depressed Center Flat Car with Transformer Load
Tried this one out on the 28.5" radius and was pleasantly surprised that it did not overhang too much at either the ends, nor mid-girth.
(sorry for that one out of focus photo,...my camera acting up)
Didn't have 24" curve installed at the time, so I will have to come back and add that photo once I shoot it.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I understand not everyone has the room for large curves, but we all make choices. If I did not have the room for large curves, I think my choices would not include long cars...... Sheldon
I understand not everyone has the room for large curves, but we all make choices. If I did not have the room for large curves, I think my choices would not include long cars......
Sheldon
Exactly. No, not everyone has room for 36" radius curves. So they make do with the space they have. But then you also have to not expect to be able to run giant articulated locos and 85' cars. It's not an appearance issue, it's not an issue of elitism. It's physics.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Well Type Container Cars on 24" Radius
For briefity I just put a couple of those well type containers cars on the 24" radius track. Looks like they fall barely within the 1" boundry lines I drew on either side of the CL of the track, certainly at their mid-girth.
Brian, it appears from those photos that when on straight track, the diaphragms on those passenger cars are not touching and the gap between the cars is rather large?
No offense, but that is one reason I have not invested in any expensive RTR passenger cars, and it is also the reason I still run mostly 72' passenger cars even on my 36" and larger curves.
I prefer this appearance:
These cars, with their working, always touching diaphragms are coupled at nearly prototype car spacing.
They will handle 30" radius, but I don't have any 30" radius......
And I don't have to widen my track spacing on curves.
Santa Fe Passenger Cars
Decided to pick out a few of my Walthers streamline Santa Fe 85' passenger cars, since I plan on running these quite often behind a good selection of Santa Fe diesels I have. 1) On the 31" radius curve .....everything appears to run fine. It does appear that there needs to be minimum of 1" additional 'outer clearance' for the ends of the cars, and a minimum of 1" of 'inner clearance' for the middle girth of the car. Outer radius here is 31". Next in is 28.5". The inner one with the autoracks on it is a testing minimum of 24"
2) On the 28.5" radius curve ...it appears to be very similar to the same requirement for the 31" curve above
3) On the 24" radius curve ...I wanted to see if these cars could negotiate a 24" radius as these tight curves might be encountered in some staging access, some yards, or a few other misc locations on my relatively small layout.
It does appear as though they can make it around these curves with those very good coupler designs provided by Walthers. It also appears as though the ends of the cars, and the middle of the car requires a wider clearance dimensions, As can be seen via that 'clearance bracket' this needs to be a minimum of 1+1/8" .
Long Passenger Cars & the GG1
I did some testing out on my 'outdoor test bench' . As I have mentioned before I feel I can easily fit a helix into my plans that will have 2 parallel tracks,... Outer radius 31 inches Inner radius 28.5 inches
I decided to glue some track down on my 'bench' in those 2 dimensions. I chose the 2.5" between tracks dimension after reading a great number of postings indicating that this seems to be adequate for basic curved tracks at these sort of radiuses. So here are my 2 tracks that also have penciled in lines located 1" outboard of them (1" either side of the track's centerline)
That is a newer Walthers 85' heavyweight passenger car on the inner track. It's obivious that its forward end is just shy of that 1" clearance from the C/L.
What is not so obivious is how much does the center of this car project from the C/L of the track. Regretable my camera angle (too close to subject) hides this detail. Let me say that it appears as though the center of this long passenger car requires a FULL 1" clearance on its inboard side on this 28.5 radius curve.
How about two of those passenger cars passing one another on my helix. No problem according to this photo. )and here you can see the center overhang of that upper car barely touches the 1" clearance line at its inboard side)
Since I'm dealing with PRR passenger cars here. i wanted to see if a GG1 could get by, (an IHC one i have).
This photo would appear to have everything OK,...but as it turns out there is considerable 'play' in its trucks that allow it to extend past that 1" clearance line. From these 2 photos we can tell that this loco requires at least 1.25" clearance on its outboard front side.
Its inboard side does NOT seem to present any problems with overhang.
And Interestingly, it still has plenty of clearance to negoiate the helix with 2.5" seperation of the 2 tracks.
...to be continued
rrinker I didn't go back and update the track plan, so I don't knoww aht I ended up using. There are some shots on my web site of the old layout, all the way at the bottom, where you cna see the center spacing widen out for the curves. It was enough to clear the actual rolling stock that was going to run - I tried lots of combos until I found the absolute worst case - one of them was one of those huge hi-cube cars, the wheels are well set back on those so they have a huge overhang. Best advice I can say is to mock it up and try it - either tack some flex with pins, or print full size if using CAD and set the cars on - I pinned down some actual track and tried various combinations of inside car overtaking the outside car and outside car overtaking the inside car, lining up the worse inside overhang with the worst outside overhang, etc. Was it an extra 1/2", for a 2.5" center spacing? Or was it an extra 3/4"? I don't remember, that was 14 years ago. I know it worked - never had an issue no matter what was run, including some Walthers cars purchased AFTER the testing was done and track in place. I'd think at 30" radius for the inner helix track I wouldn't go below 32.5" on the outer track. But agian, test it with what you intend to run. I had no locos with excessive overhang like a Big Boy or anything so i didn't test locos. The various long cars were worse on overhang than the biggest loco, a 4-8-4. --Randy
I didn't go back and update the track plan, so I don't knoww aht I ended up using. There are some shots on my web site of the old layout, all the way at the bottom, where you cna see the center spacing widen out for the curves. It was enough to clear the actual rolling stock that was going to run - I tried lots of combos until I found the absolute worst case - one of them was one of those huge hi-cube cars, the wheels are well set back on those so they have a huge overhang.
Best advice I can say is to mock it up and try it - either tack some flex with pins, or print full size if using CAD and set the cars on - I pinned down some actual track and tried various combinations of inside car overtaking the outside car and outside car overtaking the inside car, lining up the worse inside overhang with the worst outside overhang, etc. Was it an extra 1/2", for a 2.5" center spacing? Or was it an extra 3/4"? I don't remember, that was 14 years ago. I know it worked - never had an issue no matter what was run, including some Walthers cars purchased AFTER the testing was done and track in place. I'd think at 30" radius for the inner helix track I wouldn't go below 32.5" on the outer track. But agian, test it with what you intend to run. I had no locos with excessive overhang like a Big Boy or anything so i didn't test locos. The various long cars were worse on overhang than the biggest loco, a 4-8-4.
What I just found in my testing of long cars and steam locos is that the rear cab portion of the big articulated locos are the worst offenders. I have some photos I will post
BRAKIE Everybody isn't lucky to have a full basement for a layout nor the funds to build a special layout building or join a super nice club with a super layout. These modelers make do on what the space allows.
Everybody isn't lucky to have a full basement for a layout nor the funds to build a special layout building or join a super nice club with a super layout. These modelers make do on what the space allows.
hear hear, I suspect a whole lot of modelers don't have that space for expansive curves,...as nice as it would be
Here are some PRR passenger cars on those 31" and 28.5" curves
and a GG1 with those PRR cars
Those outer pencil lines are 1" from the centerlines of the tracks.
rrinker...excerpt On my old layout, it's a good thing I tested first. Walthers 85 foot cars would not pass one another when the inner radius was 30" and the outher was 32". I had to open the spacing on the curves to allow them to work. If there are problems at 30 and 32, expecting them to work on 18 is IMO unreasonable.
On my old layout, it's a good thing I tested first. Walthers 85 foot cars would not pass one another when the inner radius was 30" and the outher was 32". I had to open the spacing on the curves to allow them to work. If there are problems at 30 and 32, expecting them to work on 18 is IMO unreasonable.
Just reading thru this subject thread with the idea of posting some photos and experiments I made recently.
If you had opened up the CL to CL distance from 2" to 2.5" you would have no side swaping of those cars. Here is 31" outer radius and 28.5" inner radius.
But it did run trains - just not likely reliably. It's all in the way you play the physics. A hump would eb bad, especially with a 6 axle loco - the outboard wheel will end up with the flanges compeltely above the wheels. IF it comes down perfectly straight, it will land between the wheels - heck I took some train set level Tyco stuff and made it jump a sizable gap once - as in, the track ramped up and made a jump. Sometimes it actually landed with both trucks on the rails. The dip is a little more forgiving - the CENTER axle may end up suspended above the rails, but the lead and trailign axles will both be on the rails and it's nearly impossible for the center axle to not pick up the rails again. At least on straight track.The limit is, it can;t dip down so much that the lead axle going into the dip tilts the truck so much the trailing axle rubs the frame, or it jams the drive mechanism. Rolling stock set up for 3 point suspension can handle it, one truck can swivel and tilt, the other truck can swivel but generally not tilt. When the free motion truck rolls through, it can tilt to the side but not tip the whole car, when the other truck rolsl through, the car tips but now the other truck is past the bad section and on level track so the carbody tilts around that truck which stays firmly planted.
Where you can;t have dips and humps is where the wheel HAS to stay within the track guage, like at turnout frogs. If the wheel is lifted there, there's nothing else to guide it, and it just skips over the frog and derails. Or curves. You can't have the lead axle lifted to the flanges are above the railhead and expect it to follow a curve, especially a tight radius curve. Specifically created sloppy looking trackwork can work, it just has to be in cherry picked locations. Take, say, a length of flex track and puut a slight vertical kink right in the middle, but fasten the entire thing so that it is dead nuts straight, not the slightest wiggle. At least 9 times out of 10, most locos will handle it at anything short of warp speed. But curve one end, and 9 times out of 10, when a loco heads from the straight towards the curve, it will derail at that vertical hump. Going from the curve into the straight part? Probably not as much.
The best thing to do is always make sure you don't have such dips, humps, and kinks. That's the only way to be sure. Most of the time, the human eye is good enough to see this, combined with the sense of touch - you should be able to run your finger of rail joints and not worry about snagging and slicing yourself open. I always sight down along the track looking for unintended wiggles. I also have some trucks fitted with the same metal wheels I used on most all of my rollin stock that I both roll slowly while pressing, feeling for unwanted sharp clicks at jints, and deliberately twist, trying to catch the flanges on solder joints or misalinged rails. I also fling this truck through at warp speed. And run some locos as I go - part of the reason my progress in building is so slow, as I go I hook power up and start running trains to make sure the completed track is working. They I start running trains instead of building more layout.
rrinker That one was far less horrible than it looked, AND the trainw as going pretty slow. And it never said how many takes that was to get the whole video with no derailments. Those videos of real trains rocking like they are about to fall over? They DO derail at times. Or get stuck one way or another. I happened to witness it happen once, as the REALLY bad siding sunk into the dirt far enough to tip the cars being shoved back in right over to lean on the cars left standing on the main. Both sets of cars were stuck, crew couldn;t move anything, so (the train was operated with a loco at each end since there were no turning facilities and precious few runarounds) they climbed in to the loco that faced back to the terminal end of the run and motored off, returning the next day with a couple of cranes to life the cars upright and get the train unstuck. --Randy
That one was far less horrible than it looked, AND the trainw as going pretty slow. And it never said how many takes that was to get the whole video with no derailments. Those videos of real trains rocking like they are about to fall over? They DO derail at times. Or get stuck one way or another. I happened to witness it happen once, as the REALLY bad siding sunk into the dirt far enough to tip the cars being shoved back in right over to lean on the cars left standing on the main. Both sets of cars were stuck, crew couldn;t move anything, so (the train was operated with a loco at each end since there were no turning facilities and precious few runarounds) they climbed in to the loco that faced back to the terminal end of the run and motored off, returning the next day with a couple of cranes to life the cars upright and get the train unstuck.
Ah so photoshop and editing, that makes more sense. As you know I’ve had to correct very slight humps and off level track to prevent derails. This video mad me mad! Couldn’t understand how such horrible trackwork could run trains :)
Gary
rrinker I can;t imagine those are typical Walther 85 foot passenger cars in the one where each piece of track alternates direction. The standard couplers wouldn;t have that much swing. They must have extra long shank couplers applied. They also seem shorter than 85 foot card. --Randy
I can;t imagine those are typical Walther 85 foot passenger cars in the one where each piece of track alternates direction. The standard couplers wouldn;t have that much swing. They must have extra long shank couplers applied. They also seem shorter than 85 foot card.
Well that would explain the 18” S curves. But still don’t understand the horrible track that didn’t cause derailments.
rrinker ricktrains4824 gdelmoro Now here are some impressive 18” curves https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QeyaV_ubu7Q This guy knows how to have fun. Now if he can just make his little people not suffer from so much motion sickness while commuting to their jobs.... After watching a few of the videos that come up as auto play after that one, I can't believe so many people thing the stuff they show as a 'problem' would have ever worked. One guy has 18" radius curves and turns back on itself in a full S curve and wonders why a long bulkhead flat is pushed right off the rails. And another is sub-18" radius, or at least it looks that way, and the guy wonders why his diesels wouldn't make it. I realize everyone starts somewhere but even most beginner books tell you not to form S curves. --Randy
ricktrains4824 gdelmoro Now here are some impressive 18” curves https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QeyaV_ubu7Q This guy knows how to have fun. Now if he can just make his little people not suffer from so much motion sickness while commuting to their jobs....
gdelmoro Now here are some impressive 18” curves https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QeyaV_ubu7Q
Now here are some impressive 18” curves
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QeyaV_ubu7Q
This guy knows how to have fun.
Now if he can just make his little people not suffer from so much motion sickness while commuting to their jobs....
After watching a few of the videos that come up as auto play after that one, I can't believe so many people thing the stuff they show as a 'problem' would have ever worked. One guy has 18" radius curves and turns back on itself in a full S curve and wonders why a long bulkhead flat is pushed right off the rails. And another is sub-18" radius, or at least it looks that way, and the guy wonders why his diesels wouldn't make it. I realize everyone starts somewhere but even most beginner books tell you not to form S curves.
I would agree, but I still don’t understand how the trains in the first video I posted (the one where the track is all bent and deformed) and the last (where there are about 5 S curves in a row) don’t derail.
It kind of goes against everything we know.
I can get Athearn Heavyweights and Bachmann Heavyweights to run R18's all day and night as long as I'm not balls out on the throttle.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
ricktrains4824 Doughless ricktrains4824 ATLANTIC CENTRAL BUT, if they are not working, and you ask me why, and I tell you it is because your curves are too sharp, don't blame me, or the manufacturer, or the NMRA - physics is physics. While I have the upmost respsect for you Sheldon, I somewhat disagree, to a minor extent here. Yes, I understand that it all has to do with physics, but the manufacturer's should be putting realistic operating radii for their product, not one with "some tinkering required" instead. This would avoid most of the "why is this happening on radii X" type questions. And sometimes it has nothing to do with physics. It has to do with too prototypically accurate underbody details. My exactrail 50 foot waffle-sided box car was obvioulsy designed to be a shelf queen. It wouldn't negotiate a 28 inch radius curve because the wheels would rub against the underbody rigging not allowing the truck to turn sharp enough. ...unitl I removed the details. Well, one could argue that it was still physics.... An object in motion tends to stay in motion..... Until it hits something unmovable.
Doughless ricktrains4824 ATLANTIC CENTRAL BUT, if they are not working, and you ask me why, and I tell you it is because your curves are too sharp, don't blame me, or the manufacturer, or the NMRA - physics is physics. While I have the upmost respsect for you Sheldon, I somewhat disagree, to a minor extent here. Yes, I understand that it all has to do with physics, but the manufacturer's should be putting realistic operating radii for their product, not one with "some tinkering required" instead. This would avoid most of the "why is this happening on radii X" type questions. And sometimes it has nothing to do with physics. It has to do with too prototypically accurate underbody details. My exactrail 50 foot waffle-sided box car was obvioulsy designed to be a shelf queen. It wouldn't negotiate a 28 inch radius curve because the wheels would rub against the underbody rigging not allowing the truck to turn sharp enough. ...unitl I removed the details.
ricktrains4824 ATLANTIC CENTRAL BUT, if they are not working, and you ask me why, and I tell you it is because your curves are too sharp, don't blame me, or the manufacturer, or the NMRA - physics is physics. While I have the upmost respsect for you Sheldon, I somewhat disagree, to a minor extent here. Yes, I understand that it all has to do with physics, but the manufacturer's should be putting realistic operating radii for their product, not one with "some tinkering required" instead. This would avoid most of the "why is this happening on radii X" type questions.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL BUT, if they are not working, and you ask me why, and I tell you it is because your curves are too sharp, don't blame me, or the manufacturer, or the NMRA - physics is physics.
BUT, if they are not working, and you ask me why, and I tell you it is because your curves are too sharp, don't blame me, or the manufacturer, or the NMRA - physics is physics.
While I have the upmost respsect for you Sheldon, I somewhat disagree, to a minor extent here.
Yes, I understand that it all has to do with physics, but the manufacturer's should be putting realistic operating radii for their product, not one with "some tinkering required" instead. This would avoid most of the "why is this happening on radii X" type questions.
And sometimes it has nothing to do with physics. It has to do with too prototypically accurate underbody details.
My exactrail 50 foot waffle-sided box car was obvioulsy designed to be a shelf queen. It wouldn't negotiate a 28 inch radius curve because the wheels would rub against the underbody rigging not allowing the truck to turn sharp enough.
...unitl I removed the details.
Well, one could argue that it was still physics.... An object in motion tends to stay in motion..... Until it hits something unmovable.
Touche!
- Douglas
There is a difference between being able to run on 18" curves and not looking silly doing so. Perfect example I have a set of 53' Kato well cars they run on 18" curves but the overhang looks silly. Do I run them yes very slowly as all my trains run.
Joe Staten Island West
To clear up a few things....
My rant was directed specifically at this comment. (Quote function failed last time, so trying it again.)
Paul3 The 18" radius crowd is a drag on the hobby. Look, if you want to run trolley-like curves, run trolleys.
The 18" radius crowd is a drag on the hobby. Look, if you want to run trolley-like curves, run trolleys.
This comment comes off as sounding extremely elitist, almost as if saying you are not a real model railroader unless your layout includes generous curves.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL You have no idea about my path in life, or my problems, or my blessings.......
You have no idea about my path in life, or my problems, or my blessings.......
Exactly my point, which is why the "trolly" comment irks me. It comes off as assuming that we choose to have a tight radii layout, not that we are forced into it.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL It's a big tent, again, if it's working for you and you are having fun, great, but don't criticize those with bigger/different goals or higher standards.
It's a big tent, again, if it's working for you and you are having fun, great, but don't criticize those with bigger/different goals or higher standards.
This was not my intent at all, and if it came across that way, I sincerely apologize, as that makes me sound just as elitist as I was complaining about.
My point, was, just because your standards allow you to have a layout with broad curves does not mean you should be putting down those with layouts that do not have broad curves, some, because there simply isn't the room too.
(And I know that you were not doing that Sheldon, but some comments on this thread certainly sounded that way.)
Trust me, I would absolutely LOVE to have the space for a bigger layout with broad curves, but it is simply not currently possible.
mbinsewi Thank you Sheldon. I don't get what Ricky's rant was about, but whats a wet basement got to do with radius? If Ricky owns the home, then a wet basement is something he has to deal with. It can be fixed. Nobody was picking on him because of his layouts radius. Mike.
Thank you Sheldon. I don't get what Ricky's rant was about, but whats a wet basement got to do with radius?
If Ricky owns the home, then a wet basement is something he has to deal with. It can be fixed.
Nobody was picking on him because of his layouts radius.
Mike.
Mike, the basement is usually where larger home layouts are built.
Also, no, I am not the owner of the home, my parents are. However I will be helping to get it fixed if I am staying here for a while longer.
And, sorry, but the above "trolly" comment comes off as "picking on" smaller radii layout owners.
So, while I don't recommend anyone have a layout that includes tight radii, I also understand that sometimes, you must go with what you can, and compromises must be made and accepted.
Please know that I don't begrudge anyone who has indeed earned their way into having a large layout, my point was, don't be so dismissing of those who don't or can't.
I fully understand that some equipment will never be operational on tight radii curves, but as was mentioned, the newest modeler's often times don't. So please try to not get offended when a newer modeller asks why it don't when manufacturer X says it will. (Or when a longtime modeler rants about it not being the case.)
All that telling a new modeler to switch to trolly's for tighter radii will do, is offend them, not help them.
Instead, try to help them understand that sometimes, you either must tinker and tweak things, or it simply will not operate.
This was what my rant was, and is, about.
(The quotes show prior to posting, again, so let's see what happens when I click on "Submit"....)
Colorado RayThe NMRA Recommended Practice RP 7.2 gives 2-9/16" minimum spacing for modern standards.
Buried in the notes (Note 2) is that the radii are for the inner most track. Since 31-32" is the outer track radius for railandsail you should use the next smaller radius of 26 5/8" to get a value of 2 21/32". Widening it out to 2 3/4" will cover the classic era as well, in case there comes a desire to tun a Big Boy
Paul
After reading this thread, what has struck me is that specific or unyielding modeling goals can force modelers to make a lot of compromises they don't want to make.
If something doesn't fit, why not try to model something that does?
Are you really not interested in older eras that used shorter cars; or logging railroads, ore haulers, or coal haulers?
I model modern era, and with generaous curves designed into my next layout, its still going to be dominated by 2 bay cement hoppers and 40 foot corn syrup tankers being pulled by GPs; eventhough I really like 72 foot centerbeam cars and SD40-2s.
I like all trains. All eras. I'd be happy modeling many things.
I choose to model something that fits the space, which is why I focus on branchlines. I will never devote the space needed for lots of mainline running, so I approach the hobby by choosing an interest that suits the space I have.