bearman Atlantic Central, you do have a point, but, maybe I am strange, I am more than willing to pay a premium for personalized service at my local RR hobby store. Problem is that they are really small by now and the only thing keeping them afloat is their internet sales. There is another hobby story nearby that has a RR dept, but ever since the old timer left, useful advice is hard to come by. I used to walk intothat store and always made sure I spent some money, and I am not talking about a doallar or two, just to have a chat with Sam. The point to be made, I think, is that the hobby is dying. I am 63 years old and I am the youngest member of my club, and it has 8 members. I appreciate the possible issues with MB Klein and, in fact, I placed the order with them a little while ago. I guess all my good expereinces over the years finally outweighed this last incident.
Atlantic Central, you do have a point, but, maybe I am strange, I am more than willing to pay a premium for personalized service at my local RR hobby store. Problem is that they are really small by now and the only thing keeping them afloat is their internet sales. There is another hobby story nearby that has a RR dept, but ever since the old timer left, useful advice is hard to come by. I used to walk intothat store and always made sure I spent some money, and I am not talking about a doallar or two, just to have a chat with Sam.
The point to be made, I think, is that the hobby is dying. I am 63 years old and I am the youngest member of my club, and it has 8 members.
I appreciate the possible issues with MB Klein and, in fact, I placed the order with them a little while ago. I guess all my good expereinces over the years finally outweighed this last incident.
I understand, we are about the same age.
BUT, the hobby is not dieing.
It has however changed in some very dramatic ways.
And, retailing, in this hobby or elsewhere, is changing very rapidly.
There are some good aspects of this. Single point distribution, that is having larger blocks of product in one place for quick shipment to anyone, anywhere, does improve overall access to products while also lowering the cost of providing those products.
The down side - you can't touch it first. But really, I have gotten to the point were I don't want to buy the stuff off the shelf that "you" touched and did not buy.......
Other down side - customer service - OK, I get that too. But after 50 years in this hobby, repairing and selling trains starting at age 14, having great mentors as a teen and young adult in this hobby, pretty much the only customer service I need is to have defective stuff fixed or replaced........
I realize not everyone is in my situation........... But I did not start the discounting that helped kill the local shops............ M B Klein did. As one of the first brick and mortar stores to offer measureable discounts, they were the beginning of all this, way back in the 60's.
When I ran a hobby shop train department in the late 70's we saw it coming then. Mail order and deep discounting was already hurting the small shops.
Hope you get your question answered, but if it was me buying DCC, I would buy EASY DCC from CVP.
Sheldon
Ok, Steve, I will not mention it again.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
Home Depot, well I don't want to start trouble, but let's just say that as a skilled carpenter it's not some place I would look for an installation contractor, and as a contractor, I would not work for them as a subcontractor. And as a contractor, we only buy a small percentage of our materials there........
My issue with Home Depot was not looking for a contractor - I don't think I would go that route. Rather we purchased our applicances from HD on the Nov sales but the installation services were a nightmare. We had to be home from work seven (7) full days before all 6 applicances were finally installed.
The 1st attempt installers refused to bring anything because the washer was found to be damaged and I guess they didn't want to make multiple trips. Hah.
The second attempt the washer was still damaged (we found out later they still had the same washer - what a bunch of incompetent bafoons!), but they brought the other 5 appliances. We saw the dishwasher was damaged and refused it and got the 4 appliances installed.
On the 3rd attempt, the wash machine was delivered but it was not installed on the drain pan as promised by the sales person. The installers refused despite HD saying the would do that (and it's standard homes with laundry rooms on the 1st or 2nd floors with washrooms with a floor drain).
Day 4, we complained to HD about washer not installed properly and they sent two clowns out from the store, and I had to supply them tools because they didn't bring most of what was needed and they screwed up and installed the drain pan too close to the wall so the cloths washer wouldn't fit. They realized they botched the job and left the washer in front of our fridge disconnected - things were worse than before they arrived.
Day five, HD promised to finally deliver and install an undamaged dishwasher. We stayed home from work - got the call the night before confirming delivery - but no one showed up.
Day six, HD installers finally delivered and installed the dishwasher.
Day seven, HD hired plumber to correctly install the cloths washer.
Summary - bought six appliances on Nov 24, first attempt to deliver was Dec 5, finally concluded after 7th attempt on Dec 22. HD gets a big fat F for customer experience buying home applicances. But who knows, maybe Sears and Best buy use the same delivery people? At least we were compensated between HD, and the two appliance companies to the tune of $460 back.
Oh, and the icing on the cake, the front load washmachine makes a low rattling sound on the spin cycle cause the soap drawer rattles. We are working with the manufacturer to get it replaced.
So advice on finding good contractors - word of mouth, recommendations from your friends who have had good experiances, is the best way. (I have never advertized in 20 years)
Well, my wife works for a couple of Phd gov contractors. The guy who is their contractor promised to build them a screened in room over their existing deck and have it finished by early fall so they could enjoy it. Well, here it is half way through Jan and he still hasn't finished the job. I that recommendation is falling through. We are trying word of mouth but don't know a lot of people. My sister had good luck with a contractor she has used so I'm going to try to contact him. I guess if you've lived in one place for a long long time, it helps as you have had time to find good contractors word of mouth. My wife is good at looking and researching but in the Haymarket/Gainsville/Manassas area, it's really spotty finding anyone who will even return your call.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761 But seriously, you (and the rest of us) have already told them that you are willing to trade personalized customer service for lower prices when we allowed all the LHS's to close. The above is assuming discount vendors are the reason LHS's closed in the first place. The majority of those I've observed closing in the last 10 years are due to the owner retiring, passing away or getting out of the business due to illness. Caboose Hobbies owner decided close not to continue and retire last year when his lease was up - he could have moved but he was at retirement age so that was the route he went.
But seriously, you (and the rest of us) have already told them that you are willing to trade personalized customer service for lower prices when we allowed all the LHS's to close.
The above is assuming discount vendors are the reason LHS's closed in the first place. The majority of those I've observed closing in the last 10 years are due to the owner retiring, passing away or getting out of the business due to illness. Caboose Hobbies owner decided close not to continue and retire last year when his lease was up - he could have moved but he was at retirement age so that was the route he went.
Today's competitive pricing of model trains may not be why some shops close, but it is surely why few new ones open to replace them and why new owners don't step up to take over existing ones.
A well established business with little or no debt can compete very well in most any market, but a start up needs deep pockets of cash at low carrying costs to jump into a competitive market.
If I already have that kind of money, I am likely to do something other than invest in a business that chains me to hours posted on a shop door........
I'll bet Modeltrainstuff gets a bazillion calls and a lot of how do I do this or that?
Just because they didn't return your phone calls, doesn't mean management knows they aren't returning phone calls.
2 out of 4 of the last times I bought deli meat in the grocery store, I have been the only customer at the counter. In those cases there were at least two employees standing behind the counter who ignored me while they finished their personal converstation. In one of those cases, they both walked away and a third person watching from the back of the department came to help.
I've been in Lowes, an 80,000 sq ft store with a several dozen customers in the store and gone to check out and found one, and once no cashiers.
I could go on about restaurants and poor service there.
It's not the hobby that is dying, it's good service.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
ATLANTIC CENTRAL riogrande5761 But seriously, you (and the rest of us) have already told them that you are willing to trade personalized customer service for lower prices when we allowed all the LHS's to close. The above is assuming discount vendors are the reason LHS's closed in the first place. The majority of those I've observed closing in the last 10 years are due to the owner retiring, passing away or getting out of the business due to illness. Caboose Hobbies owner decided close not to continue and retire last year when his lease was up - he could have moved but he was at retirement age so that was the route he went. Today's competitive pricing of model trains may not be why some shops close, but it is surely why few new ones open to replace them and why new owners don't step up to take over existing ones. A well established business with little or no debt can compete very well in most any market, but a start up needs deep pockets of cash at low carrying costs to jump into a competitive market. If I already have that kind of money, I am likely to do something other than invest in a business that chains me to hours posted on a shop door........ Sheldon
Yes, and anyone who has been around the hobby for a while has heard the old saying, "what is the best way get 1 million dollars, open a hobby shop with 2 million." or some variation of that saying. I traveled a lot in my job in the 1980's and 1990's and always made it a point to visit train shops in whatever state and city I visited, at least 2 or 3 at each location. So over the last 40 years of visiting hobby shops, I learned that is one business I had NO romantic idea's about what so ever. And of course several folks like yourself who ran a shop know how hard it is. There is a guy over at TrainOrders who apparently owned Allied in California for years and is about as bitter as a guy can be and whenever he gets the chance preaches the "gospel" of "the hobby is dying" every chance he gets. What a downer he is. Model Railroading is NOT fun when he is around.
riogrande5761 Home Depot, well I don't want to start trouble, but let's just say that as a skilled carpenter it's not some place I would look for an installation contractor, and as a contractor, I would not work for them as a subcontractor. And as a contractor, we only buy a small percentage of our materials there........ My issue with Home Depot was not looking for a contractor - I don't think I would go that route. Rather we purchased our applicances from HD on the Nov sales but the installation services were a nightmare. We had to be home from work seven (7) full days before all 6 applicances were finally installed. The 1st attempt installers refused to bring anything because the washer was found to be damaged and I guess they didn't want to make multiple trips. Hah. The second attempt the washer was still damaged (we found out later they still had the same washer - what a bunch of incompetent bafoons!), but they brought the other 5 appliances. We saw the dishwasher was damaged and refused it and got the 4 appliances installed. On the 3rd attempt, the wash machine was delivered but it was not installed on the drain pan as promised by the sales person. The installers refused despite HD saying the would do that (and it's standard homes with laundry rooms on the 1st or 2nd floors with washrooms with a floor drain). Day 4, we complained to HD about washer not installed properly and they sent two clowns out from the store, and I had to supply them tools because they didn't bring most of what was needed and they screwed up and installed the drain pan too close to the wall so the cloths washer wouldn't fit. They realized they botched the job and left the washer in front of our fridge disconnected - things were worse than before they arrived. Day five, HD promised to finally deliver and install an undamaged dishwasher. We stayed home from work - got the call the night before confirming delivery - but no one showed up. Day six, HD installers finally delivered and installed the dishwasher. Day seven, HD hired plumber to correctly install the cloths washer. Summary - bought six appliances on Nov 24, first attempt to deliver was Dec 5, finally concluded after 7th attempt on Dec 22. HD gets a big fat F for customer experience buying home applicances. But who knows, maybe Sears and Best buy use the same delivery people? At least we were compensated between HD, and the two appliance companies to the tune of $460 back. Oh, and the icing on the cake, the front load washmachine makes a low rattling sound on the spin cycle cause the soap drawer rattles. We are working with the manufacturer to get it replaced. So advice on finding good contractors - word of mouth, recommendations from your friends who have had good experiances, is the best way. (I have never advertized in 20 years) Well, my wife works for a couple of Phd gov contractors. The guy who is their contractor promised to build them a screened in room over their existing deck and have it finished by early fall so they could enjoy it. Well, here it is half way through Jan and he still hasn't finished the job. I that recommendation is falling through. We are trying word of mouth but don't know a lot of people. My sister had good luck with a contractor she has used so I'm going to try to contact him. I guess if you've lived in one place for a long long time, it helps as you have had time to find good contractors word of mouth. My wife is good at looking and researching but in the Haymarket/Gainsville/Manassas area, it's really spotty finding anyone who will even return your call.
Suggestion, if you don't have the skills to install appliances yourself, buy them from a small local applaince shop. Most such outfits come close to big box prices and have qualified installers.
OR,
Buy the appliances at the cheapest place, and pay a good plumber/contractor to install them.
We install appliances for our customers all the time. If I build a kitchen, I'm installing the dishwasher, disposer, frig and water line, stove, etc, so that nobody screws up my SKILLED work, or causes me to have to repair other damage.....
And I build kitchens like this:
It has however changed in some very dramatic ways. And, retailing, in this hobby or elsewhere, is changing very rapidly. There are some good aspects of this. Single point distribution, that is having larger blocks of product in one place for quick shipment to anyone, anywhere, does improve overall access to products while also lowering the cost of providing those products. The down side - you can't touch it first. But really, I have gotten to the point were I don't want to buy the stuff off the shelf that "you" touched and did not buy....... ... I realize not everyone is in my situation........... But I did not start the discounting that helped kill the local shops............ M B Klein did. As one of the first brick and mortar stores to offer measureable discounts, they were the beginning of all this, way back in the 60's.
...
Agree'd
Hobby shops are not dying, but rather the way business is being done is shifting from brick and mortar stores to online vending.
The train hobby is being affected by the same trend that is forcing Sears, JC Penny, Macy's and many others stores to close as online vendors like Amazon subplant them. MBK has as successful business model which is why their walk in retail space recently shrunk to 1/3rd of what it was a year ago, and they are repurposing that space for the online end of the business.
Even before online hobby vending, there was mail order. Maybe I'm one of those "bad guys" who was part of that early trend because when I was a starving student, I ordered from Standard Hobby Supply in Maw Wah NJ from those big adds in MR magazine. There were a number of others too, and MBK joined them in the 1990's.
Let's also not turn this thread into a discussion of home remodeling contractors... that's off topic.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Suggestion, if you don't have the skills to install appliances yourself, buy them from a small local applaince shop. Most such outfits come close to big box prices and have qualified installers. OR, Buy the appliances at the cheapest place, and pay a good plumber/contractor to install them. We install appliances for our customers all the time. If I build a kitchen, I'm installing the dishwasher, disposer, frig and water line, stove, etc, so that nobody screws up my SKILLED work, or causes me to have to repair other damage..... Sheldon
Thanks for that "after the fact - it's too late now" advice.
Anyway, my wife is sharp as a tac and did tons of homework before we pulled the trigger - she priced things out carefully and between the sale prices we paid at the start along with the $500 off for buying 6 appliances and the $460 back compensation, I'm pretty sure we came out very well financially for what we got. We just had some "fun" along the way.
If you disagree, I'll let you take it up with her. I've found from experience however, that she is usually right. You might find that too if you were to challenge her - my advise is, don't go there.
Hah hah Steven, a bunch of wild old men here are hard to corral! So many know way too much and can't hold it in.
"but what do I know?" =D
No problem, I'm outa this topic! Cheers!
Maybe another thing in MB Klein's defense - I just ordered something from their website last week and noticed they've had this little disclaimer/announcement on their website since at least late last week:
"Recent orders have been delayed 1-2 extra days due to the ice storm. Thank you for your patience!"
Not sure when the ice storm happened, but they may have been busy trying to get caught up on shipping orders for the last week or so, and hadn't had time to call back. In the chaos, it's possible they may have dropped the ball and forgot to call back altogether.
Dan Stokes
My other car is a tunnel motor
stokesda Maybe another thing in MB Klein's defense - I just ordered something from their website last week and noticed they've had this little disclaimer/announcement on their website since at least late last week: "Recent orders have been delayed 1-2 extra days due to the ice storm. Thank you for your patience!" Not sure when the ice storm happened, but they may have been busy trying to get caught up on shipping orders for the last week or so, and hadn't had time to call back. In the chaos, it's possible they may have dropped the ball and forgot to call back altogether.
Weather here has been unusually cold, even for January, and even small snowfalls or "icy rain" events have made travel dangerous.
The Mid Atlantic gets its share of snow, but constant temps in the teens or below are unusual for us. We have had several weeks not out of the teens. It warmed up some last week, but cold is back, and more winter precep is on the way.
It has slowed down all sorts of commerce......
Steven Otte Let's also not turn this thread into a discussion of home remodeling contractors... that's off topic.
finally.....
I was waiting for the "when I was a kid we were so poor my mama knitted a stove outta steel wool" story next...........
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
All I can say is that whether you buy online or wherever there may be a LHS, let's support the hobby one way or another!! Stores may come and go, but not the hobby!
Most of you remember model railroading of 15-20 years ago. You had a power supply, a rheostat, connected two wires to the track and ran your train. Train don't run? If you have 12v going to the motor and the motor doesn't run the motor is bad. If you don't have 12v at the motor, a wire came off the rails somewhere.
It's not that simple anymore. There are standards for DCC, but each manufacturer implements them in a different way. This makes finding someone well versed in all the different manufacturer methods almost impossible.
I switched to RailPro. Supply 12v to the rails, install the decoder (installs with a 9 pin connector just like DCC), Measure the engines full load current. This takes about 15 seconds and is done through the handheld controller. Run your trains. No addressing. No CVs.
Consisting is amazing. Press the 'Link' button on the touchscreen, select engines you want in the consist. Press 'Done' on the touch screen, run your consist. The first engine you pick is the 'Lead' engine and all the rest automatically speed match to that one. To break the consist, press the 'Unlink' button on the lead engine page. Done.
No more DCC for me.
SouthPenn Most of you remember model railroading of 15-20 years ago. You had a power supply, a rheostat, connected two wires to the track and ran your train. Train don't run? If you have 12v going to the motor and the motor doesn't run the motor is bad. If you don't have 12v at the motor, a wire came off the rails somewhere. It's not that simple anymore. There are standards for DCC, but each manufacturer implements them in a different way. This makes finding someone well versed in all the different manufacturer methods almost impossible. I switched to RailPro. Supply 12v to the rails, install the decoder (installs with a 9 pin connector just like DCC), Measure the engines full load current. This takes about 15 seconds and is done through the handheld controller. Run your trains. No addressing. No CVs. Consisting is amazing. Press the 'Link' button on the touchscreen, select engines you want in the consist. Press 'Done' on the touch screen, run your consist. The first engine you pick is the 'Lead' engine and all the rest automatically speed match to that one. To break the consist, press the 'Unlink' button on the lead engine page. Done. No more DCC for me.
Railpro is great, for some users. How many locos do you have on your Railpro setup?
I'm not interested in sorting through 135 pictures that I need my glasses to see.
But, I don't use DCC either.........
I have 20 engines using RaiPro. I'm not going to replace all my DCC decoders. I can't afford that. Only three had DCC decoders in them that I removed.
I wear triple focals and don't mind the screen. It's bigger than my NCE, Digitrax, and smartphone screen.
SouthPenn I have 20 engines using RaiPro. I'm not going to replace all my DCC decoders. I can't afford that. Only three had DCC decoders in them that I removed. I wear triple focals and don't mind the screen. It's bigger than my NCE, Digitrax, and smartphone screen.
I still think it's easier and far cheaper to just use plain old DCC and use an app like Train Throttle to consist them.
We seem to have gone WAY off topic here. Can we either get back to the original subject matter or move on? Thanks...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Just as FYI in case you didn't know. There is a yahoo users group NCE-DCC you might want to join and ask your question. (I imagine the other DCC brands have groups also.) I have found some of the discussions of use for me - I have the NCE wireless setup.
Paul
IRONROOSTERJust as FYI in case you didn't know. There is a yahoo users group NCE-DCC you might want to join and ask your question.
Good point, Paul. I can usually find at least an opening into what I don't know that way. This helps even if a human is ready and available to help by using Google and a little research time to get the basics so I can hold up my end of the conversation. It's just a fact of life that these resources may be more accessible to you than humans, but they do count as customer service.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Poor customer service no longer surprises me. I think in this era of automated response we sort of expect it.
My customers are surprised by the fact that I pick up the phone on the first ring and actually return calls.
Joe Staten Island West
On the front page of the NCE website, there is a noticed that because of the Christmas season they are running behind in their deliveries.
This might account for the lack of response from their tech support. They are probably overwhelmed.
tstage We seem to have gone WAY off topic here. Can we either get back to the original subject matter or move on? Thanks... Tom
Two warnings later from the forum administrator and this warning from the forum moderator, there have been 53 replies to a complaint about no return call from MB Klein or NCE.
The call took place on Monday and the complaint was issues early Tuesday morning. So, 48 hours later, has the OP tried to contact either of these vendors?
I have repeatedly used MB Klein for purchases, and I own extensive NCE equipment. I have contacted NCE many times over the past 14 years and always received prompt responses. Likewise, I have never failed to receive prompt customer service from MB Klein.
Why not just call both of them back?
We need an update from the OP.
Rich
Alton Junction
Well, he got the answer in the DCC section here. Also there's nothing in the SB5 manual that I looked at that would lead one to believe what the OP wanted to do wasn't possible. I don;t see what in the manual would lead one to beleoive that hooking some panesl to one cab bus jack and other panels to the second cab bus jack would be verboten.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I actually called MBK the same day, thirty minutes before they closed and a gentleman not only spent three minutes looking something up but actually went back to the warehouse and got the item and tried to find the answer that way. Of course it was 475.00 dollar item. He could not find the answer but I bought it anyway as they will take it back if it does not work. I have had nothing but outstanding service from MB Klein.
SB
bearman I got in touch with both Modeltrainstuff and NCE yesterday with what I believe is a basic question about an NCE product and in both cases I was going to get a call back and I was never called back. I am astounded at what appears to be poor customer service from two supposedly venerated sellers in the hobby.
I got in touch with both Modeltrainstuff and NCE yesterday with what I believe is a basic question about an NCE product and in both cases I was going to get a call back and I was never called back. I am astounded at what appears to be poor customer service from two supposedly venerated sellers in the hobby.
I am the OP and as far as I am concerned any issues I have with MBK have been solved. I got the answer I needed re:the SB5. Yesterday I ordered the requisite items from MBK and today I called them to change the order, which they did. I admit that my original post may have been posted with a little bit of haste and I probably should have waited another 24 hours to calm down regarding my frustration. I ordered from MBK this time because my past experiences with them have always been very positive. As has been pointed out in any number of responses to my original post, there may be issues of which I am/was unaware could be the problem. At this point, I would prefer to just let all the dust settle and relegate this whole thread to some deep dark archive never to be resurrected again.
riogrande5761 bearman riogrande...I can go to the Home Depot down the street. As for contractors, I will not do business with one that will not return my calls. I guess it depends on where you live. In northern Virginia, it's the norm to not hear back from contractors so I'd guess if you refused to do business, you wouldn't get much work done. My guess is conditions around here are like that because there is so much business and contractors are so busy, they don't need to call you back. I mean, why else? If they were hungry and needed the money, they would call you right? Let me give you an example. We need our hardwood floors re-finished. We have tried to get at least 4 or 5 contractors to give us an estimate during the past 4-5 weeks, so far only one estimate in hand. One guy answered my wife saying he was in Florida playing baseball. Since he returned, we've played phone tag a bit and decided he must be too busy. A couple of others seem to be taking their time. Hey, I understand how you feel, I really do. I've just found in this area you have to chase people up or you don't get anything done. Sad but true. Anyway, I've tried to call MBK before and not got callbacks too on days they were open. Well, again, business is good for them so if you aren't happy about having to call them back again, vote with your wallet - problem solved for you right? Anyway, re: MBK, with a little imagination you can guess why you didn't get a call back and then not feel "astounded". They could be short staffed and busy and not had a chance. I've noticed during the past year MBK's staff is reduced a lot from what it was a few years ago when I have visited the store in person.
bearman riogrande...I can go to the Home Depot down the street. As for contractors, I will not do business with one that will not return my calls.
riogrande...I can go to the Home Depot down the street. As for contractors, I will not do business with one that will not return my calls.
I guess it depends on where you live. In northern Virginia, it's the norm to not hear back from contractors so I'd guess if you refused to do business, you wouldn't get much work done. My guess is conditions around here are like that because there is so much business and contractors are so busy, they don't need to call you back. I mean, why else? If they were hungry and needed the money, they would call you right?
Let me give you an example. We need our hardwood floors re-finished. We have tried to get at least 4 or 5 contractors to give us an estimate during the past 4-5 weeks, so far only one estimate in hand. One guy answered my wife saying he was in Florida playing baseball. Since he returned, we've played phone tag a bit and decided he must be too busy. A couple of others seem to be taking their time.
Hey, I understand how you feel, I really do. I've just found in this area you have to chase people up or you don't get anything done. Sad but true.
Anyway, I've tried to call MBK before and not got callbacks too on days they were open. Well, again, business is good for them so if you aren't happy about having to call them back again, vote with your wallet - problem solved for you right?
Anyway, re: MBK, with a little imagination you can guess why you didn't get a call back and then not feel "astounded". They could be short staffed and busy and not had a chance. I've noticed during the past year MBK's staff is reduced a lot from what it was a few years ago when I have visited the store in person.