Our friends at the Napa Valley Railroad Historical Society are continuing to keep up the good fight.
Hobby shops have been dying way before the internet arrived. First one I remember was over 30 years ago. Saw two new ones appear but neither one had a clue on how to run a buisness, in fact one hired the worst of a still thriving store, just because he talked a good game, they didn't last and they tried multiple locations.
For those of us who keep score, is this hobby shops/clubs are dying thread considered the last hobby shops/clubs are dying thread for 2017...or the first hobby shops/clubs are dying thread for 2018?
Or does each year get half a credit?
riogrande5761 Doughless Is online competition the problem for these stores or is it their product line? Well, a brick and mortar store has two disadvantages: 1) higher costs to maintain a physical store. 2) less "reach". Online vendors are visible to the nation and even overseas customers and costs are lower. MB Klein is a prime example and during the past year repurposed 2/3rds of their show room over to the online dept. I understand that model railroading items ship well, and can be returned by the customer with little inconvenience, but home goods or clothing? You'd think thats the case but thats an outdated notion. My wife orders cloths online and so do many others. She also ordered our livingroom TV stand, coffee table and book shelf for our living room in our new home online and it was delivered to our door. Same with other items. THIS is why Amazon is kicking the pants off of Sears Sears was having problems way before internet sales phenomenon. Maybe, but it has accelerated exponentially since online sales have taken over in the past 4 years. Kmart, Macy's, Toys R Us, and a hole host of other physical stores. Read the news. It's pretty clear what is going on and model train shops are being swept up along with them.
Doughless Is online competition the problem for these stores or is it their product line?
Is online competition the problem for these stores or is it their product line?
Well, a brick and mortar store has two disadvantages:
1) higher costs to maintain a physical store.
2) less "reach".
Online vendors are visible to the nation and even overseas customers and costs are lower. MB Klein is a prime example and during the past year repurposed 2/3rds of their show room over to the online dept.
I understand that model railroading items ship well, and can be returned by the customer with little inconvenience, but home goods or clothing?
You'd think thats the case but thats an outdated notion. My wife orders cloths online and so do many others. She also ordered our livingroom TV stand, coffee table and book shelf for our living room in our new home online and it was delivered to our door. Same with other items. THIS is why Amazon is kicking the pants off of Sears
Sears was having problems way before internet sales phenomenon.
Maybe, but it has accelerated exponentially since online sales have taken over in the past 4 years. Kmart, Macy's, Toys R Us, and a hole host of other physical stores. Read the news. It's pretty clear what is going on and model train shops are being swept up along with them.
A few thoughts:
Status has always been a big factor in marketing and product development of nearly anything. Its like having the newest car on the block, and not using last year's model. The online/tech industry markets status by telling their users that they are smarter for using their product than nonusers. Its been part of the marketing strategy since its inception in the early 90s. Tech likes to tell tech it is the elixor.
Macy's got killed by Kohls, TJ Maxx, etc, way before Amazon came along. Sears and Kmart were heading south 10 years before the internet was even invented. Malls are now invaded by teenagers and traffic jams. Malls that aren't subject to those things do fine. Amazon has little to do with their demise.
If you read comments here closely, most people who use online stores do so because a B&M store is nowhere near them. The growth of online stores aren't coming at the expense of knocking out B&M stores, it's coming from serving the customers B&M stores never had.
Online train dealers have to have inventory stored on shelves too. Lots of inventory means lots of shelves. Big dealers are more cost effective than small dealers, the online factor didn't create that dynamic. The fact that the building isn't prime retail space and is commercial storage means less real estate cost, but then there is the cost of buying online visibility and payment infrastructure and ongoing maintence thereof.
Also, when locos and rolling stock cost $200 and $50 online respectively, I would contend that the perceived lower cost of online distribution has nothing to do with the demise of Tyco and Modelpower. Product evolution and a proprietor's desensitivity to a changing market impacts business failure more.
IMO, the Online factor impacts things, but its not the cause or the elixor its oftentimes made out to be.
- Douglas
You'd think thats the case but thats an outdated notion. My wife orders cloths online and so do many others. She also ordered our livingroom TV stand, coffee table and book shelf for our living room in our new home online and it was delivered to our door. Same with other items. THIS is why Amazon is kicking the pants off of the brick and mortar stores of many stripes.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Online stores have not hurt brick and morter as much as they like to say. People just got sick and tired of bad attatudes, lack of selection and poor (I am being nice here) customer service. Even price only did so much to criple stores. I worked for Woolworths for a time as the chain shut down and had a front row seat to their mistakes that led to their downfall, major among them was not planning for the future. It seems most hobby shops do not own their own building and never seen one yet with a ten year plan plus bad attitude, just in my neck of the woods most shop owners had a bad attatude and many would rather talk to a friend rather than wait on a customer. I saw one piss off hundreds of people at one decision. If you run a store you have to keep people coming in, rairly do hobby stores work at that. The one that did had a small consignment case, people would come in weekly to see new stuff, just in case and many times buy something while there. He always sold major peices like engines and cars at a discount but sold stuff to go with at about retail, he sold alot of stuff to go with.
riogrande5761 Run Eight Just like home town hobby shops, becoming a thing of the past. The home town hobby shops is more a part of the trend of brick & mortar stores being replaced by online sales. Why just today, there was an article in MSN news about how 2018 will see more closings than 2017 for stores like Sears, Macy's and the like: http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/a-tsunami-of-store-closures-is-about-to-hit-the-us-%e2%80%94-and-its-expected-to-eclipse-the-retail-carnage-of-2017/ar-BBHJnok?li=BBnb7Kz
Run Eight Just like home town hobby shops, becoming a thing of the past.
Just like home town hobby shops, becoming a thing of the past.
The home town hobby shops is more a part of the trend of brick & mortar stores being replaced by online sales.
Why just today, there was an article in MSN news about how 2018 will see more closings than 2017 for stores like Sears, Macy's and the like:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/a-tsunami-of-store-closures-is-about-to-hit-the-us-%e2%80%94-and-its-expected-to-eclipse-the-retail-carnage-of-2017/ar-BBHJnok?li=BBnb7Kz
Is online competition the problem for these stores or is it their product line? I understand that model railroading items ship well, and can be returned by the customer with little inconvenience, but home goods or clothing?
As far as clubs, I'm a lone wolfer anyway so I wouldn't notice if they're losing acceptance or not.
Hay, thats the law they passed. See I specialized in dealing with the historical and other things in real estate, like how to get arround roadblocks.
They don't really understand the term "old" out there, do they?
My house is 117 years old, I'm working on one who's oldest section is 275 years old, newest section 155 years old.
Still don't know if I would trust (or like) the public land/building thing for a club.......
But that's just me, not much of a " joiner" anymore.
Sheldon
They can't win. I know the rules pretty well and yes they can not start anything before a full EIR, they can plan and this dose not affect terminating leases. Now they could have gone for historic and thrown a monkey wrench into the plans but the club has not been there 50 years (in California any building over 50 years can be declared historic by any resident) so I don't think that will fly and it takes time to do that paperwork in the state. Now on another note, the huts I am sure are over 50 years, so if they bust butt, they may be able to do that with a simpathetic judge and delay tactics.
It looks like the Napa Club is now pursuing legal avenues to keep their layout in place.
Always plan ahead.
rrebellNo, you mis understand, I told them to do modular as a perminant layout, not to be moved unless they had to be
We have sort of taken that approach with our new permanent layout, but instead of using only 2' x 4' modules, we designed the layout so that it can be broken down into larger manageable sections.
We are renting space in a large old factory that has been repurposed into a variety of uses. We figure that at some point the real estate value will be more than the rental income. In fact that is probably the case already, so we are being realistic about the likelyhood of the building going under the wrecking ball at some point in the future. The question of course is where do we move to then?
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
No, you mis understand, I told them to do modular as a perminant layout, not to be moved unless they had to be, gives you a lot more latatude and your wiring can be standard. This would have worked great for me but my new space was so much smaller than my old. I only have a 11x13 room comming my way vs the basicly 5 car garage I had, about 1/10th the space.
maxmanProblem with modular is that you still need a place to set it up, and you have to find a place to store the modules when you take it down. I think the only semi ideal solution is to own your own place, preferably with some income generating property attached
Moduels take a lot less space to store. In most cases each member can store at lest one module at their home. A club I was with had a trailer in which some moduels were stored. Several members could park it at their homes.
Shoping malls, Recreation centers, etc. are often happy to allow short term setups for a few days. The club I was with was fortunate to be allowed to use a building in a city park most weekends. We also set up at many county fairs and train shows and other events in the area.
Another solution I have seen (although not a club) was a layout in large travel trailer, that the owner took to shows. I have visited clubs that had smaller layouts than what was in the trailer.
However, nothing beats club owned building if they can afford it.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
rrebellthat they should gradualy convert to modular
Problem with modular is that you still need a place to set it up, and you have to find a place to store the modules when you take it down.
I think the only semi ideal solution is to own your own place, preferably with some income generating property attached.
Well I am glad some good may come out of this discussion allthough the great communication ideas would have done nothing to stop the things that happened to the clubs I mentioned. Another thing of note back on the original subject is that I told a few of the clubs that closed that they would have to face this and that they should gradualy convert to modular and they all said "this will never happen to us".
mlehmanOf course, there are modern concerns like will the new guy just show up to steal our stuff?
These days DVR recording security/surveillance cameras are dirt cheap! Just the presence of the cameras may keep a casual pilferer on the straight-and-narrow.
It is kind of a side hobby of mine but I started setting up cameras around my layout, and eventually all around the property. Many of the early ones I bought used off Ebay but now you can get very nice cameras with IR vision for cheap money.
Some will even provide a web feed so you can monitor from anywhere, anytime.
Take a look into it. Maybe some restrictions will apply in public buildings but check with the local law. Almost any enforcement agency is pro-camera, but ask around anyway.
https://www.amazon.com/ZOSI-Security-recorder-Weatherproof-Smartphone/dp/B00MP57IOY/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1514045812&sr=1-3&keywords=security+camera+system
All my cameras are hard-wired. With all the blue-tooth; DCC throttles and Wi-Fi stuff I have buzzing around I didn't think adding sixteen wireless cameras to the mix would help.
Good Luck, Ed
mlehman That Welcome brochure idea is a great one. We need something like that in our NMRA division. Need to ask the superintendent about that...whoops, that me. And it's still a great idea, even though we don't have a lot of situations other than the yearly train show to pass them out. It is interesting how this thread is bifurcating into two distinct areas. There are those responses from people who've had negative experiences with clubs, but no real solution to fixing that or even suggesting that such failures are to be expected. Then there are those with positive experiences who are willing to be flexible, latch on to good ideas, and to do the work it takes to make such great stuff keep happening. I'm not pointing this out to suggest there's an easy answer, as if getting the first group to act more like the second will solve such issues. That's just not the case, because the issues involve other people and they vary so much. I think the feelings of rejection and unwelcome are reasonable under the circumstances described, BTDT myself. If people don't throw out a Welcome mat it often is hard to engage with them. But having worked and volunteered in the non-profit sector for a long time, I can't emphasize enough how hard it is to get someone to just walk through the door and show even a minimal interest in whatever it is you do. They represent a valuable commodity, with new views and expectations. Sometimes, that alone can be threatening, witness the lengthy list of requirements just to qualify to be considered for membership detailed above in at least one example. It's obvious that some clubs haven't thought through what they need to do if it's anything beyond what those presently engaged desire to happen. Of course, there are modern concerns like will the new guy just show up to steal our stuff? Pretty unlikely if you have their verified contact info, but everyone has their own levels of comfort with such things. I've never had a problem myself, despite encouraging a pretty open operation (both NMRA and personal) simply because that's the way to reach the most potentially interested modelers. I will draw one conclusion here. Successful clubs and groups happen because people make them happen. If you're not personally in the position or mindset to make that happen, keep in mind that doesnt mean others are not. And it also doesn't mean that if you find yourself getting involved with a group that thinks positively about such endeavours that you won't eventually, too, find something valuable to be gained through a group effort.
That Welcome brochure idea is a great one. We need something like that in our NMRA division. Need to ask the superintendent about that...whoops, that me.
And it's still a great idea, even though we don't have a lot of situations other than the yearly train show to pass them out.
It is interesting how this thread is bifurcating into two distinct areas. There are those responses from people who've had negative experiences with clubs, but no real solution to fixing that or even suggesting that such failures are to be expected. Then there are those with positive experiences who are willing to be flexible, latch on to good ideas, and to do the work it takes to make such great stuff keep happening.
I'm not pointing this out to suggest there's an easy answer, as if getting the first group to act more like the second will solve such issues. That's just not the case, because the issues involve other people and they vary so much. I think the feelings of rejection and unwelcome are reasonable under the circumstances described, BTDT myself. If people don't throw out a Welcome mat it often is hard to engage with them.
But having worked and volunteered in the non-profit sector for a long time, I can't emphasize enough how hard it is to get someone to just walk through the door and show even a minimal interest in whatever it is you do. They represent a valuable commodity, with new views and expectations. Sometimes, that alone can be threatening, witness the lengthy list of requirements just to qualify to be considered for membership detailed above in at least one example. It's obvious that some clubs haven't thought through what they need to do if it's anything beyond what those presently engaged desire to happen.
Of course, there are modern concerns like will the new guy just show up to steal our stuff? Pretty unlikely if you have their verified contact info, but everyone has their own levels of comfort with such things. I've never had a problem myself, despite encouraging a pretty open operation (both NMRA and personal) simply because that's the way to reach the most potentially interested modelers.
I will draw one conclusion here. Successful clubs and groups happen because people make them happen. If you're not personally in the position or mindset to make that happen, keep in mind that doesnt mean others are not. And it also doesn't mean that if you find yourself getting involved with a group that thinks positively about such endeavours that you won't eventually, too, find something valuable to be gained through a group effort.
Great post Mike, you are spot on. A club is what you make of it....or not.
And so that is why I offered a few basic thoughts in the beginning, based on some practical considerations, then pretty much left the converstation - why?
Because I know myself well enough to know I don't want to make the necessary commitment to be a good club member, at least not right now.
In the past I have had very posititive club and round robin experiances - I have also had a few negative ones. But at the end of the day, socializing, in the hobby or otherwise, is a low priority.
So much like NMRA membership, one needs to go into a club experiance not thinking about "what I will get" from this, but rather "what can I add" to this group.
The only thing my current personal situation allows me to add to the NMRA is my dues, which I do happily.
When the round robin I was in shifted direction, and I felt I had little to offer, and little to gain, I quietly backed away.
While I am still very happy to share the hobby with other modelers, preferably one on one, I'm not sure a "group" is a plus for me, at least not right now.
Again, thank you for your reasoned thoughts,
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
"The newsletter concept is interesting too."
If you are to do a newsletter Dave, try to make sure you get an "uninvolved" member to do it.
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
gmpullmanI remember the brochure was a three panel, folded format that was easy to pocket and one of the panels could be filled out to request further information, etc. Today, of course, it would have a web and email address, too.
Right on! I like the 3 fold idea. I have created a draft copy of what our brochure might contain. One of the members of the Executive Committee has already expressed his support for the idea.
The newsletter concept is interesting too. Henk and I have gone to great lengths to improve the communication process within the club, but what we have achieved is actually a bit bureaurocratic. We are publishing all of the minutes of each of the various committee's meetings, but it is as boring as .... can't say the word! Summarizing the details in a newsletter sounds to me to be a much better approach. Back to the Executive Committee!
You are a great inspiration Ed! Thanks so much!
Hi, Dave
I sure wish I would find all the paperwork I had from the old club. I used to use a simple program, Microsoft Publisher, for some of that stuff. I did a monthly newsletter, too.
I remember the brochure was a three panel, folded format that was easy to pocket and one of the panels could be filled out to request further information, etc. Today, of course, it would have a web and email address, too.
I really miss doing that stuff for the club. I would make crossword puzzles and railroad trivia quiz questions for the newsletter, too.
Fun Stuff!
Regards, Ed
gmpullmanWhen I was involved in a club near me I suggested printing a "Welcome To..." handout for visitors. It was a simple brochure with a "mission statement" a background of the club and the requirements for membership.
Hi Ed:
I just passed your brochure idea on to my fellow Executive Committee members.
Thanks
This has been VERY interesting topic to me. I have a train club in my area, 36 miles one way, and has been around at least 20 years I know of located in a mall. I know they are open to visitors on Saturdays and Sundays and I think 2 other days during the week. I been there numerous times and have only be talked to by members about 4 times and the conversations were short lived. Being a loner of sort and an overtime work schedule, I don't see myself joining a club. When I retire in the next couple of years, I might rethink the idea.
When I was involved in a club near me I suggested printing a "Welcome To..." handout for visitors. It was a simple brochure with a "mission statement" a background of the club and the requirements for membership.
This helped to break the ice when a visitor showed interest and it also helped with members who were not so PR savvy that they could at least hand out a flyer and not have to worry about actually speaking, which some people seem to have difficulty with. We passed them out to interested parties during our annual train flea-market as well.
It also cured the problem of misinformation — which some members were famous for spewing — the dues, age requirements, meeting times, contact information and such were clearly stated.
The club finally disbanded, for many of the reasons mentioned in some of the previous posts, back in 2005. It was fun while it lasted!
We had a nice club in Northern NJ. It was located in a VFW hall that was leased. VFW membership is rising again and the VFW wanted their hall back. A court battle ensued over the lease and the VFW won. The club layout had to go.
When I moved to Columbia, illinois, 8 years ago, I found a listing in a City Publication for a Model RR Club. I called the phone number repeatedly for months and it just rang and rang. No answer, no message. During a conversation with someone at the library they told me about someone they knew that belonged to the club (he happened to be a member of my church). So I talked to him and found out that the club had closed down right before I moved to town. Also, he could not tell me what happened to the layout (HO) or the club owned equipment, etc.
Then I found out (don't remember how)about a club that is about 30 miles away in St. Louis. I dropped by to check them out (HO). The ten or so guys that were there just completely ignored me. I walked completely around their large layout (in progress) without anybody saying anything to me. I felt like I had some contagious disease. I finally just walked out.
A couple of YEARS later Iwent back to try again. Same lack of interest on their part, but I pushed the issue and went up to a guy who wasn't afraid to make eye contact with me! I asked some questions about the club and got very basic answers. I came back about 5 or 6 times to this weekly work session over the next two months and managed to get some conversation from the same guy and a little from one other guy. Eventually the first guy asked me if I would be interested in joining the club. He gave me an application form which said that I would have to pay a $10 application fee to be considered, I would have to show up for at least 6 meetings/events within a 90 day period starting from the day my application was received and at the end of the 90 days the current members would vote on whether or not I would be allowed to join. It also talked about monthly dues, etc. I received nothing telling me about what I would be receiving for my for money, time and efforts. I guess they like their club just the way it is. I decided that I was not ready to put myself thru their membership ordeal. And, by the way, I have belonged to a woodcarving club for twenty five years and we go out of our way to welcome possible new members to our club.
I have also joined the NMRA 2 years ago and have attended some of the local NMRA meetings. I received the same treatment there. The people were all in their little groups having a good old time. The only person who spoke to me was the guy running the meeting who asked me "Are you a member of NMRA" I said "Yes". Conversation closed.
So, call me a lone wolf (not by choice) with a nice basement HO layout in progress.
So, I really appreciate all the people on this forum who give their knowledge and experience to those of us who are new to this terrific hobby.
wdcrvr
Bayfield Transfer Railway When John Allen built his Gorre and Daphetid at around 800 square feet, it was considered a very large home layout.Basements and home layouts have gotten bigger. I personally know a number of modelers with home layouts over 1000 square feet. When you can build as big a railroad as you like, exactly as you like, often with the help of friends, but don't have to argue about anything, why join a club?
When John Allen built his Gorre and Daphetid at around 800 square feet, it was considered a very large home layout.Basements and home layouts have gotten bigger. I personally know a number of modelers with home layouts over 1000 square feet. When you can build as big a railroad as you like, exactly as you like, often with the help of friends, but don't have to argue about anything, why join a club?
I visited a local club with the thought of possibly joining it. They had a modular layout. Some of the modules were extremely well done but others look like they were thrown together. The layout was less than half the size of my home layout. After giving it some thought, I thought why spend my time and money on that layout when I still have my home layout to complete. When I get my own layout completed (as opposed to finished) I might give thought to joining that club but until then all my time and money is going to go to my layout. I hope to have the final phase built, scenicked, and operating within a year. Then I'll consider joining a club.