Good Morning to All, without stirring anything up except alot of Opinions I have a Question.. I recently Bought a BLI I-5 Brass hybrid, A beautiful Engine Runs so nice, but as far as there Smoke system leaves alot to be desired. I have a MTH Challenger & a 2-8-2 Light Mike no douhgt the Big Challenger chould produce more smoke than a Hudson but My 2-8-2 also outsmokes the Hudson 10x over. I bought 2 tubes of BLI smoke fluid for the Hudson but it rarely puffs anything out. I was getting ready to Buy the BLI C&O 490 but if the I-5 is any example of there smoke system I will probably buy another MTH engine. I Guess it is like when DCC and sound first appeared after running my first one I was Hooked. Now it's Smoke so realistic with a Steam engine. Ok The Question for those of you who have Both MTH and BLI whats your favorite Smoker. Since the I-5 is my only BLI smoker at this time I have no way to tell if the I-5 is not working correctly or it's just the difference between the two systems...
I have no oppinion on any of the products you mention.
.
However as far is the title of you post goes... to smoke or not to smoke... you should put me into the no smoking group.
Be aware, I also dislike sound, so I am pretty sure I am in the minority on most of these features.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
The paragon 3s smoke pretty well. Is that what you have? I have a non smoker I-5 as well as the I-4 which does smoke but rather weakly. In fact it's packaged up waiting to be shipped back to replace smoke fan. UGH.
Thank You Thats probably where my I-5 will be heading shortly..
Wow Kevin, your the first person I ever talked with that did not prefer Sound to non sound. But to each his own, Thanks for the reply..
I dislike sound as well. I have yet to hear halfway decent sound, it all sounds tinny and totally unrealistic to me.
BLI's Rolling Thunder system sounds pretty awesome nothing tiny about it/ MTH's engines are loud without any help from under the Bench but no railroad in model form will ever be able to recapture the rumble and roar of the real thing. I guess it's all in whats makes you smile thats whats it all about, Great hobby, Good Fun, leads to some very Good freinds...
nscalebuilderfirst person I ever talked with that did not prefer Sound to non sound
Russell
nscalebuilder Wow Kevin, your the first person I ever talked with that did not prefer Sound to non sound. But to each his own, Thanks for the reply..
Not to get way off topic, or start controversy, but in a great many discussions on this forum over the last several years, a fairly large percentage have expressed a lack of interest in sound or smoke.
Those who vote "no" or "indifferent" regarding sound are easily 30% or more.
Remember, only about 50% are even using DCC.
Conversations about smoke are generally over 50% against.
Still DC, quiet, and smoke free in my world.........
Maybe what you are missing is that many people are not going to limit their locomotive choices based on what MTH and BLI offer..........
Sheldon
Bringing the thread back to the OP´s question, which was about smoke and not sound - this issue has been discussed a number of times in recent years. There seem to be more folks not in favor than there are liking it. In HO scales and even more in N scale, the smoke is, IMHO, far from even being a mile from what would look prototypical, especially with th old Seuthe-style smoke units, which evaporate tiny drops of a paraffine-based smoke fluid to resemble a puffing loco. Things look different when you move up in scale to the 1/32 or gauge one scale. Watch this:
I don´t think you could get any closer to the real thing, if the smoke would come out black from the stack and white from the cylinder valves and the whistle!
As good as it already looks, I don´t think I could stay longern than 60 seconds in a smoke filled basement!
Very Nice. I was not try to get an opinion of who likes sound or even smoke what I was asking is those who do run thses units that do have that option do you think the Bli's fan driven units are better than the units that MTH uses. From my experience so Far the MTHunits out smoke the BLI's hands down and my Challenger and My light Mike produce a very convincing smoke a very long way from the old Seuthe Generators. Since I just bought my First BLI with smoke I really have nothing to compare as to the difference in the two. There will always be those who do and those who do not with everything are own taste is what makes the Hobby what it is to me to you and everyone who enjoys watching that Train round the bend!!
nscalebuilderOk The Question for those of you who have Both MTH and BLI whats your favorite Smoker.
My favorite? The one that doesn't smoke.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I like the visual effect of the smoke, but the smell of it drives me away. I was at the Springield show a few years ago and I felt sorry for the vendors whose tables were next to the big MTH display with all its smoking engines.
The smoke particles will also settle on your layout and will require more attention to track cleaning.
No thanks.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
nscalebuilder Very Nice. I was not try to get an opinion of who likes sound or even smoke what I was asking is those who do run thses units that do have that option do you think the Bli's fan driven units are better than the units that MTH uses. From my experience so Far the MTHunits out smoke the BLI's hands down and my Challenger and My light Mike produce a very convincing smoke a very long way from the old Seuthe Generators. Since I just bought my First BLI with smoke I really have nothing to compare as to the difference in the two. There will always be those who do and those who do not with everything are own taste is what makes the Hobby what it is to me to you and everyone who enjoys watching that Train round the bend!!
Maybe a different title would have limited the unwanted responses, but you moved it up a notch with your own response of surprise that not everyone likes sound and smoke......
I shut off my smoke using the slide switch under my BLI steamers, of which I have maybe 17, as Job One. It doesn't look realistic. Neither does real water. It flows about eight times as fast as it should in scale, or ripples the same way if it isn't flowing and has that glassy smooth surface.
Even though I am a fan of BLI steamers, their smoke units can't hold a smoking candle up to the MTH units. That's where the comparison ends, because I feel BLI's steamers beat MTH's in realism hands down in most cases. Not in quality...they're quite comparable, but the MTH units are intended to be a bit more toylike.
My opinion, 'bout as valuable as a pair of soiled socks.
selectorMy opinion, 'bout as valuable as a pair of soiled socks.
Yea...but I bet if you set them on fire, Crandell, they'd look pretty realistic.
Tom
In my experience, the BLI smoke units are NOT properly set-up (programmed) from the factory! The fan is usually shut off at idle, so that litterally NO smoke comes out while sitting still. The fan only spins when the loco chuffs, which looks rather feeble. The fan-speed at idle can be programmed to turn at any speed you want, the chuff duration of the fan can be changed, if necessary, and the heating temperature can be increased, if necessary. Go online and download the Paragon 2 technical manual and look at CV's 234-238 (I think). These things can be made look pretty good! As long as there's nothing wrong, of course....
Mike C.
ATLANTIC CENTRALMaybe a different title would have limited the unwanted responses
I quite agree, Sheldon - that title is utterly misleading! Well, the OP stirred the pot and now has to live with the answers.
wobblinwheelThe fan is usually shut off at idle, so that litterally NO smoke comes out while sitting still.
That´s not far from reality. A steam engine not in motion hardly emits any smoke, unless the blower is turned on. When a steam engine is just coasting, the amount of smoke coming out of the smoke stack is also quite small.
If I may I haven't seen any unwanted responces. I am glad so many people have chimed in and of course I got the answer I was looking for eventualy. For my money MTH will be the point of Choice for me when I am spending 600-700 dollars for an Engine I want the best that I can get. I have been a fan of BLI since they opened there doors for Buisness, but now that a good smoking locomotive is there for the Buying untill they step up there game a little I will have to look to Maryland. BTW I reset all the CV's for the engine to try and obtain a good smoke affect it may be faulty, time will tell. Thank All of you for your replies it has made for some good reading and I am a little shocked about how many people do not like sound in there trains. But to each his own!!
nscalebuilderFor my money MTH will be the point of Choice for me when I am spending 600-700 dollars for an Engine I want the best that I can get...But to each his own!!
Truer words have never been spoken. What's "best" for one person may not be what's best or a priority for another. You have to choose what's important to you and base your purchases off of that.
tstage selector My opinion, 'bout as valuable as a pair of soiled socks. Yea...but I bet if you set them on fire, Crandell, they'd look pretty realistic. Tom
selector My opinion, 'bout as valuable as a pair of soiled socks.
Ya but, how about that smell!?
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
My 9 year Old Nathan at the controls, MTH 2-8-2 PRR.
I will get it going here in a minute or so.
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Sorry my first try and posting Pictures or video
nscalebuilder If I may I haven't seen any unwanted responces. I am glad so many people have chimed in and of course I got the answer I was looking for eventualy. For my money MTH will be the point of Choice for me when I am spending 600-700 dollars for an Engine I want the best that I can get. I have been a fan of BLI since they opened there doors for Buisness, but now that a good smoking locomotive is there for the Buying untill they step up there game a little I will have to look to Maryland. BTW I reset all the CV's for the engine to try and obtain a good smoke affect it may be faulty, time will tell. Thank All of you for your replies it has made for some good reading and I am a little shocked about how many people do not like sound in there trains. But to each his own!!
OK, a few more thoughts then. First I assume you are reffering to HO scale despite your screenname?
Second, this is a very broad hobby that means completley different things to different people, but on the topic of onboard sound, a few specific facts and thoughts:
In HO scale, if you the viewer are 3 actual feet from the model, you are 270 scale feet away - real trains are amazingly quiet at that distance due to the rapid dispersion of sounds outdoors - our train rooms are not outdoors, they are small indoor highly relective places that make the sound too loud too far away.
In fact, if you watch trains in real life, the noise of the locomotive is quickly replaced by the track noise once the loco is past you.
Next problem - Frequency range and dynamic range - as a successful HiFi speaker system designer I can tell you that poorly reproduced sound actually starts to annoy most people after extended listening - Two 1" speakers are never going to produce good sound.
Room accustics and chaos - ONE model locomotive, making reasonably good sound (like in a larger scale, O scale or larger) can be very interesting and fun. But, on a basement filling HO layout, with 4-8 operators, multiple trains running, guests talking, etc, it quickly turns into an annoying din - some people like chaos, not me.
So my layout fills a 25 x 40 room and supports the operation of 6-8 trains at once, most all pulled by multi unit diesel lashups or double headed steam - just imagine 24 of those things going at once.......there is no volume setting low enough to make that situation work.
So, if my modeling goals included running one train at a time in some sort of intimate relationship with that one train, I would model in a large scale and I would have sound.
BUT, since that is not my goal, sound is basically incompatible with a number of my other goals, which I was deticated to long before DCC and sound, and which I have no desire to abandon, so no sound for me.
Personally, to my HiFi trained ears, all these things sound like a 1968 9 transistor radio playing some AM station.
And, if you take a survey, you will find a measureable percentage of people who agree with all or some of the points above - we have had this conversation on this forum before.
If you like sound, by all means go for it, have fun.
As for smoke, the indoor environmential issues alone are enough to answer that one for me........remember, 6-8 trains running at once........
DISCLAIMER - I don't buy any $600-$700 locomotives from any brand - partly because I don't need/want DCC/sound or smoke, and partly because BLI and MTH make very few models that even fit the theme of my layout. Most of my steam power is Bachmann Spectrum and Proto2000 from the last 20 years or so.
I have over 140 locomotives (powered units), only only 7 are from BLI, and none have sound (anymore). I have no MTH locos, they will not run correctly on my pulse widith modulated DC throttles.
As commented above, the detail and executon of most MTH locos is a bit too toy like - simply compare up close the MTH Berkshire to either the Bachmann or the Proto2000 models and you will see how heavy and over scale many parts are, like the running boards, pilot, etc.
On average, my investment per loco is only about $120.......
And all are kit bashed or modified in some way........
PS - to be fair, my 140 locos have been purchased over the last 25 years or so, most came DC only, a few have had decoders removed. In today's market, each might represent $250-$300 to replace.
Wow you do have your reasons and thats fine for you. My reasons and my perception of realistic is a bit different than yours and thats fine for me. When My 9 year old son hits that whistle, as she's comming out of the west tunnel blowing all the nasty Smoke and I See the smile on his face, That is really the only reason that matters to Me. Again Thank you for sharring all your opinions and reasons it's all Good.
nscalebuilder When My 9 year old son hits that whistle, as she's comming out of the west tunnel blowing all the nasty Smoke and I See the smile on his face, That is really the only reason that matters to Me.
That is a pretty good argument in favor of smoke and sound if you ask me.
I have about eight locos with sound. Only three have smoke, and they are BLI. All three of them look pretty realistic, as I've reprogrammed the smoke fans to "push" the smoke up from the stacks. Except immediately after adding fluid, they don't "billow" smoke out while sitting still, and it doesn't drift down and settle on the loco, either. At speed, the smoke is lifted high above the loco, due to the more rapid "chuffing" effect. Looks a lot like the "real thing". Any smoke unit can look just WRONG, if not programmed correctly, and when it is, it doesn't pour smoke out all over the place, either! Rarely see any residue on the tops of the engines...Also, I keep the sounds turned WAY down from default, usually about 10 to 15% of max. If you play them LOUD, it will surely get on your nerves quickly! Remember, all this stuff is PROGRAMMABLE...adjust the sound so it's comfortable, adjust the smoke so it looks good. Push a function key when you don't want smoke (or too far away to easily see), push a function key to reduce the sound if it becomes annoying...how accommodating can it get? I think many people get a bad impression of sounds and smoke, is because it ain't set-up right! If can even hear it at twenty feet away, it's TOO LOUD! And they almost always are.....
nscalebuilder Wow you do have your reasons and thats fine for you. My reasons and my perception of realistic is a bit different than yours and thats fine for me. When My 9 year old son hits that whistle, as she's comming out of the west tunnel blowing all the nasty Smoke and I See the smile on his face, That is really the only reason that matters to Me. Again Thank you for sharring all your opinions and reasons it's all Good.
And, I do feel I made it clear that I understand that others like these features, and that in fact, under different conditions from the current HO layout, I too would embrace sound.
And my Grand Children love the trains around here just fine.
I'm glad you and your son are having fun, the youngest of my six children is 32, my oldest grandchild is 15.
I worked in a hobby shop starting at age 14, and managed a train department at age 20, I fully understand the broadness of this hobby.
It was my father who started me into it way back in the 1960's - some of those items are still on my layout today......