NWP SWP I don't feel I am growing as a model railroader in my current club.
.
When I was a member of a club I grew quite a bit... but unfortunately in about a hundred different directions! Everyone in the club thought their way was the best.
Now I just play with trains.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Personally I believe that a model railroad should be somewhat prototypical but not 100% where you have an exact date that you model while saying that I wouldn't run a "toy" train or the lower end products I have seen out there I like semi proto freelancing I like running prototype equipment and kitbashed creations alike my railroad is a freelance version of prototype scenes and landmarks thats just me. I'm part of a club which gets together every other saturday to run trains around a continuous oval layout with no rhyme or reason but im okay with that. I'm joining a more prototypical club that has a point to point layout why? Because I don't feel I am growing as a model railroader in my current club. In their defense they do have basically every popular scale out there from g to n. But hey I still like my current club it's great to see the youngsters run their grandfather's trains and I enjoy talking with the senior members about trains. My point is model railroading is a people's hobby it has more colors than a artists palette each person has their own opinion, own imagination, own experiences, and own way of doing things does that make one person wrong and the next right? Of course not model railroading is a platform on which each of us can build our own empire so if you are satisfied with being a club member and collecting trains then okay I'd you want a layout then get some track and just start fiddling you may find that a 2x4 diorama suits you or a 4x8 layout or even a garage sized railroad but you won't know that till you test the waters and if it doesn't work out that's fine because this hobby has so many facets and thats what makes it the world's greatest hobby.
Just my 2 cents. Good luck!
PS: Don't worry about what other people will say and think about your layout too much of that is going around because of social media. A great songwriter once wrote "do what's good for you or your not good for anybody" perhaps a little direct but true. If running trains super prototypical or running "toy" trains with flat cars loaded with the funkiest hot wheels you can find makes you happy that's great and tell all the gawkers to keep it to themselves because its your life your railroad you make the rules and thats what makes the world go round.
Again hope I was an inspiration!
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
ROBERT PETRICKI don't do war gaming, but do war gamers do battle on a fully scenicked 500-square-foot battlefield? a 1000-square-foot? Bigger?
Yes.
Two years age for the 200th anniversary of the Battle of Waterloo, celebrated at Hurricon in Orlando by the HMGS, we built a 40 foot by 8 foot recreation of the battlefield. My friend Pete and I, and a couple of helpers bult this in two days at the convention site. Of coarse, the buildings and details were prepared in advance.
The year before that, for the 70th anniversary of the battle of Leyte Gulf we set up the island chains in 1/700 scale in an entire convention room. We had over 200 model ships that were built by about a dozen people.
I don't know how big they actualy are, but I have seen Death Star trench runs that had to be over 100 feet long and 10 feet wide. I think these are modular, so there is not limit to how big they can be, maybe.
Games Workshop runs Mega Battles at most of their conventions.
Unlike model railroads, these are all temporary, but you would be amazed at how detailed they are. Building somthing as big as a basement empire only to be used for a weekend is something most model railroaders would never dream of. The thought is probably horrifying.
I understand how wargamers see model railroading as looking boring. Most of my friends are wargamers, and none of my friends are model railroaders.
Wargames typically are played on battlefields 48 inches by 72 inches. Some games in 10mm scale are played on 24 by 24 fields. The battlefield is different every time. You can switch from AWI to WW3 in the blink of an eye. My armies range in era from ancient Numidians to Sci-Fi robot warriors from the year 40,000.
My model railroad is permanenty set at a specific date in 1954.
Model Railroading, for me, is about building a masterpiece that provides enjoyment and relaxation. It will be the end of my desire to build something amazing. My model railroad is for me, and I love it. I get tremendous satisfaction from my trains.
Very few people are both. You get different satisfactions from each hobby.
The OP did not reveal that he was also a miniature wargamer until later in this thread, or I would have addressed this earlier. I feel his pain and understand how he sees the contrasts between the two.
However, if you are like me and have interests in both, don't fight it. It is OK to have two hobbies that devour your entire life.
I don't do war gaming, but do war gamers do battle on a fully scenicked 500-square-foot battlefield? a 1000-square-foot? Bigger?
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
BashOn worrying about losing interest in the layout, it sounds like the real issue is his losing interest in building a layout. I'd suggest doing a really simple layout. ... Good points. I'm actually worried about both--loosing interest in building the layout and, even more, losing interest in operating the layout fairly quickly. The first stems from concern about the second. Specifically, the long-term play value of a layout is what I'm comparing to another hobby of mine--miniature wargaming. I've done that for the last 4-5 years and gotten many hundreds of pleasant hours in building, painting and using the miniatures. Unlike a layout, the wargame board is different each time, as are the opposing forces. Not sure if a model railroad will provide that but the only way to know for sure is to build a layout. Your advice about Unitrack and a small layout area is good. The layout I have in mind is a West Texas town that was on the QA&P (Frisco) set in the mid-60s. I have track charts and research on the buildings in place then. The prototype's trackplan will be recreated track-for-track, but necessarily compressed. I'll also be able to fit in all the prototype's trackside buildings. Thanks once again for all the replies, and keep them coming!
worrying about losing interest in the layout, it sounds like the real issue is his losing interest in building a layout. I'd suggest doing a really simple layout. ...
I'd suggest doing a really simple layout. ...
Good points. I'm actually worried about both--loosing interest in building the layout and, even more, losing interest in operating the layout fairly quickly. The first stems from concern about the second. Specifically, the long-term play value of a layout is what I'm comparing to another hobby of mine--miniature wargaming. I've done that for the last 4-5 years and gotten many hundreds of pleasant hours in building, painting and using the miniatures. Unlike a layout, the wargame board is different each time, as are the opposing forces.
Not sure if a model railroad will provide that but the only way to know for sure is to build a layout. Your advice about Unitrack and a small layout area is good. The layout I have in mind is a West Texas town that was on the QA&P (Frisco) set in the mid-60s. I have track charts and research on the buildings in place then. The prototype's trackplan will be recreated track-for-track, but necessarily compressed. I'll also be able to fit in all the prototype's trackside buildings.
Thanks once again for all the replies, and keep them coming!
Getting bored with a layout that doesnt change is one reason why people in this hobby "collect" trains of different eras and road names. There is nothing wrong with running a ES4400AC with double stack container flats or SD40s with a local freight, then run big steam pulling a coal drag.
You can also go so far as to change out some of the buildings and vehicles to switch eras.
Just like wargaming (I assume, I've never done it) it works best if the pieces are arranged in a way that makes sense before the action takes place, not just haphazardly.
Just like planning battles, you can plan your train run list or car switch lists. The scenery and track arrangements will have to stay the same, since they are permanent, but the moving pieces and buildings can change and accomodate with what era you feel like running.
- Douglas
When I said this is not wargamming, I was refering to the social/operational aspects, not modeling skills.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut it is not wargaming.........
Wargaming skills transfer to model railroading very easily. Especially detail painting. I waffle back and forth in between wargaming and model railroading constantly.
Those are the Questing Knights from my Bretonnian Army that won best painted at 9 tournaments in 2004-2005 including Necronomicon and ForceCon 3.
Also, wargaming terrain makes for great fun in model railroading photography!
My favorite comment ever:
The Winter WolfHe claims to be a wargamer, but he is not. He lies. If he was a wargamer he would bother to learn the rules and try to win. Wargaming, like his trains, is just an outlet for this unstoppable need and hunger he has to build things.
DAK knows me too well.
BashOn wjstix Although the OP's original post refers to his worrying about losing interest in the layout, it sounds like the real issue is his losing interest in building a layout. I'd suggest doing a really simple layout. ... Good points. I'm actually worried about both--loosing interest in building the layout and, even more, losing interest in operating the layout fairly quickly. The first stems from concern about the second. Specifically, the long-term play value of a layout is what I'm comparing to another hobby of mine--miniature wargaming. I've done that for the last 4-5 years and gotten many hundreds of pleasant hours in building, painting and using the miniatures. Unlike a layout, the wargame board is different each time, as are the opposing forces. Not sure if a model railroad will provide that but the only way to know for sure is to build a layout. Your advice about Unitrack and a small layout area is good. The layout I have in mind is a West Texas town that was on the QA&P (Frisco) set in the mid-60s. I have track charts and research on the buildings in place then. The prototype's trackplan will be recreated track-for-track, but necessarily compressed. I'll also be able to fit in all the prototype's trackside buildings. Thanks once again for all the replies, and keep them coming!
wjstix Although the OP's original post refers to his worrying about losing interest in the layout, it sounds like the real issue is his losing interest in building a layout. I'd suggest doing a really simple layout. ...
Although the OP's original post refers to his worrying about losing interest in the layout, it sounds like the real issue is his losing interest in building a layout.
If you like building and painting, you may enjoy the building, detailing, and painting of locos and rolling stock--no layout needed. Some very good modelers do this, and their only layout is a photo diorama.
If you like the QA&P, definitely join Frisco.org Best place for Frisco
Gary
Keep in mind there is no rule that says your next (or first) layout has to be your "lifetime" layout. Some people find the design and building of a layout the most fun part of the hobby, so they build something, run it for a short time, then rip it all down and start over again. Some people are better at figuring out just where they want to be 20 years from now and start a layout and still have the same layout, just more added on, over the entire time. It's rare though that that layout is the first one that person ever built.
I don;t think 20 years ago I was ready for a full basement size layout. I WANTED one, but the realities are, I doubt I could have actually finished it and been satisfied. Several smaller, last one being bedroom sized, layouts have solidified more what I want out of a layout and now I am working on designing that full basement layout. FAR from the first layout I've built. Plenty of 4x8 and smaller islands when I was younger (the smaller ones were N scale, not HO - so in effect the 3x6 N scale layout I built was 'bigger' than any of the 4x8 HO layouts I built), and, still a long time ago but not quite so distant in time, a shelf layout along the walls all paved the way to where I am today.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
People with all kinds of personalities are attracted to model trains - but - if you are the kind of person who gets bored easy, or likes change/new things/etc, then building a "serious" scale model layout may not be for you.
I say that based on your earlier statement about prototype research, etc.
The more dedicated to prototype realism a model railroader gets, the more it becomes about a single moment in time depicted in this 3D minature world. The more realistic it becomes, the harder it is to change it on a whim......
Operating trains in a prototype manner, especially with a group of fellow modelers can be very challenging and rewarding - but - it requires that you build a layout, or make friends with other modelers who have already build layouts.......the bigger the layout, the more operational fun and interest......and longer it takes to get it built and running......
It takes vision, planning, often years or decades of work to build a nice layout that supports interesting simulation of prototype operation. And even after all that, there will only be a limited amount of "variation" to that operation.
The more "serious" model railroading becomes, the more it appeals to people who thrive on stablity.
Once you invest a lot of time and effort into a layout, or building a model, one would hope it provides fun and satisfaction for a long time.
If that's not you, then that version of the hobby may not really be for you. Do you buy new cars just because you are tired of the old one? Prototype focused model trains is likely not for you......
There are those who simply buy lots of trains, display them, and possibly build enough of a layout to run them. Without worring about prototype correctness, or simulating prototype operation, and without attemping to recreate any specific place or time in history.
There are lots of ways to do this hobby, as the replies have indicated.
But it is not wargaming.........
Does your proposed layout allow continuous operation? How many trains/how much activity would it support?
Does such a place really interest you that much?
How big would this layout be? N scale? No offense but why N scale?
I have been at this hobby for about 50 years, and take some aspects of it pretty seriously, but I have never been remotely interested in trying to simulate a real place that closely.
May I politely suggest crawling before running?
You may find crawling more fun, and latter just be happy walking.........
Disclaimer - I told you I was a rebel, still freelancing while the whole world has got "prototype" fever.
I can tell you technical stuff about trains, and model trains, that will make most people glaze over and fall asleep, how and why it all works, how it evolved, when this was built, who used what, nuts and bolts and history........and I still am far from knowing it all....
And I want my layout to look and operate in a believeable manner. But does it have to be a perfect representation of the B&O at Brunswick MD on September 26, 1954? No, that would be boring and limiting........
So it is a made up small city, some where in the Mid Atlantic, a division point of a fictional railroad called the ATLANTIC CENTRAL which has interchanges and gives trackage rights to the WESTERN MARYLAND, B&O and C&O.....much more interesting.
Just my thoughts,
BashOn Specifically, the long-term play value of a layout is what I'm comparing to another hobby of mine--miniature wargaming. I've done that for the last 4-5 years and gotten many hundreds of pleasant hours in building, painting and using the miniatures. Unlike a layout, the wargame board is different each time, as are the opposing forces. Not sure if a model railroad will provide that but the only way to know for sure is to build a layout.
Specifically, the long-term play value of a layout is what I'm comparing to another hobby of mine--miniature wargaming. I've done that for the last 4-5 years and gotten many hundreds of pleasant hours in building, painting and using the miniatures. Unlike a layout, the wargame board is different each time, as are the opposing forces.
Not sure if a model railroad will provide that but the only way to know for sure is to build a layout.
Rich
Alton Junction
I'd suggest doing a really simple layout. Since he has N-scale stuff already, maybe grab some Kato Unitrack and do something simple - even just an oval on a 2' by 4' sheet of plywood painted green. Something that wouldn't need permanent legs, that could temporarily sit on a coffee table and be put away when not being used. Add a few buildings - you can get pre-built ones - and see how it goes. Add a switch and a spur track to an industry, pick up and set out cars.
Hey Sheldon.
You're definitely way further along on your layout than I am. Rightfully so as I've gathered you been refining your Atlantic Central layout for 35 years. My terminology is not quite up to par with some of the things you were talking about in your last post. I don't know a lot about passenger cars. When I was last in the hobby I modeled all freight.
I just started my new layout two years ago after a 35 year break. 35 years is quite a while, life happens, you know.
I look forward to talking with you on the Forum in the future. It's late I'm going to have to hit the rack. Still doing the construction thing. Got to hit the pavement early.
Take care
Track fiddler
Track fiddler ATLANTIC CENTRAL Some people thrive on change....... Some people thrive on stability....... Some people are paralyzed by too much analysis....... Some are paralyzed by thinking everything needs to meet someone else's standards. I'm a rebel on here, just ask anyone....... I have never changed scales, never changed era's, only built a few layouts. Never tore one down just because I was bored or to "start over". I only buy stuff that fits carefully into the layout plan.....I am not a model train collector..... I have been refining the same layout concept and theme for about 35 years now. In fact, I am committed to the idea that the current layout effort will be the last. It is being designed and built to be moveable (not portable), and also to be expandable and/or "re-configurable". In fact I was pretty upset several times in my life when I had to start over. As much as I am different from some of the others who have commented here, I agree with one thought - build something, anything. Have fun, learn what you REALLY like, not what the hobby press, or "famous" modelers say you should like. Now for a few more specific thoughts: I headed down the road of "prototype fanatic rivet counter" once, and decided it was no fun. I went back to "proto freelance" modeling with some "close enough" prototype modeling thrown in to interchange with my imaginary world of the ATLANTIC CENTRAL. I can tell you everything that is wrong with my models and my modeling, and maybe what is wrong with yours too depending on your era and region - but I won't comment on your modeling, and I will wait to see if you know what's wrong with mine. And then I will say "yea, so what?". Close enough is good enough, the enemy of good is better.....it will paralyze you... Following the crowd will likely not make you happy, there is no "crowd" in this hobby any more....it is all splintered....... Life philosophy - I was once "well rounded", until I learned what I really liked. I model the Mid Atlantic in 1953, my ATLANTIC CENTRAL interchanges with the C&O, B&O and WM. Don't ask me about a SD70 whatever, or anything too detailed about anything west of the mississippi.........I am focused........ And I'm having fun...... Sheldon Sheldon You speak strong words. Your words spoke to me. I can relate to everything said. I'd have to say you helped me out. I have been down the negative side roads you stated. Getting too nitpicky. Counting rivets. Fretting about if everything is prototypical enough. Fretting about is this good enough for what other people would think. Paralyzing. Exactly. You hit the nail right on the head. I am glad I took the time to carefully think out my layout plan in the beginning realizing the importance of appropriate radius and grades to create a trouble-free smooth-running layout. That is one thing. After that Enough is Enough! I need to get rid of this anal retentiveness. It takes the fun out of the hobby. You helped me realize this and I gotta Thank You. Paralyzing. Again you hit the nail right on the head. Don't sweat the small stuff. Right On. Thanks Track fiddler
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Some people thrive on change....... Some people thrive on stability....... Some people are paralyzed by too much analysis....... Some are paralyzed by thinking everything needs to meet someone else's standards. I'm a rebel on here, just ask anyone....... I have never changed scales, never changed era's, only built a few layouts. Never tore one down just because I was bored or to "start over". I only buy stuff that fits carefully into the layout plan.....I am not a model train collector..... I have been refining the same layout concept and theme for about 35 years now. In fact, I am committed to the idea that the current layout effort will be the last. It is being designed and built to be moveable (not portable), and also to be expandable and/or "re-configurable". In fact I was pretty upset several times in my life when I had to start over. As much as I am different from some of the others who have commented here, I agree with one thought - build something, anything. Have fun, learn what you REALLY like, not what the hobby press, or "famous" modelers say you should like. Now for a few more specific thoughts: I headed down the road of "prototype fanatic rivet counter" once, and decided it was no fun. I went back to "proto freelance" modeling with some "close enough" prototype modeling thrown in to interchange with my imaginary world of the ATLANTIC CENTRAL. I can tell you everything that is wrong with my models and my modeling, and maybe what is wrong with yours too depending on your era and region - but I won't comment on your modeling, and I will wait to see if you know what's wrong with mine. And then I will say "yea, so what?". Close enough is good enough, the enemy of good is better.....it will paralyze you... Following the crowd will likely not make you happy, there is no "crowd" in this hobby any more....it is all splintered....... Life philosophy - I was once "well rounded", until I learned what I really liked. I model the Mid Atlantic in 1953, my ATLANTIC CENTRAL interchanges with the C&O, B&O and WM. Don't ask me about a SD70 whatever, or anything too detailed about anything west of the mississippi.........I am focused........ And I'm having fun...... Sheldon
Some people thrive on change.......
Some people thrive on stability.......
Some people are paralyzed by too much analysis.......
Some are paralyzed by thinking everything needs to meet someone else's standards.
I'm a rebel on here, just ask anyone.......
I have never changed scales, never changed era's, only built a few layouts. Never tore one down just because I was bored or to "start over". I only buy stuff that fits carefully into the layout plan.....I am not a model train collector.....
I have been refining the same layout concept and theme for about 35 years now.
In fact, I am committed to the idea that the current layout effort will be the last. It is being designed and built to be moveable (not portable), and also to be expandable and/or "re-configurable".
In fact I was pretty upset several times in my life when I had to start over.
As much as I am different from some of the others who have commented here, I agree with one thought - build something, anything. Have fun, learn what you REALLY like, not what the hobby press, or "famous" modelers say you should like.
Now for a few more specific thoughts:
I headed down the road of "prototype fanatic rivet counter" once, and decided it was no fun. I went back to "proto freelance" modeling with some "close enough" prototype modeling thrown in to interchange with my imaginary world of the ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
I can tell you everything that is wrong with my models and my modeling, and maybe what is wrong with yours too depending on your era and region - but I won't comment on your modeling, and I will wait to see if you know what's wrong with mine. And then I will say "yea, so what?".
Close enough is good enough, the enemy of good is better.....it will paralyze you...
Following the crowd will likely not make you happy, there is no "crowd" in this hobby any more....it is all splintered.......
Life philosophy - I was once "well rounded", until I learned what I really liked.
I model the Mid Atlantic in 1953, my ATLANTIC CENTRAL interchanges with the C&O, B&O and WM.
Don't ask me about a SD70 whatever, or anything too detailed about anything west of the mississippi.........I am focused........
And I'm having fun......
You speak strong words.
Your words spoke to me. I can relate to everything said.
I'd have to say you helped me out. I have been down the negative side roads you stated.
Getting too nitpicky.
Counting rivets.
Fretting about if everything is prototypical enough.
Fretting about is this good enough for what other people would think.
Paralyzing. Exactly. You hit the nail right on the head.
I am glad I took the time to carefully think out my layout plan in the beginning realizing the importance of appropriate radius and grades to create a trouble-free smooth-running layout. That is one thing. After that Enough is Enough!
I need to get rid of this anal retentiveness. It takes the fun out of the hobby.
You helped me realize this and I gotta Thank You.
Paralyzing. Again you hit the nail right on the head.
Don't sweat the small stuff. Right On.
Thanks
You are most welcome, glad you found my thoughts helpful.
Here are a few more thoughts about marching to your own drum in this hobby.
Things I do:
All my passenger cars are close coupled with working diaphragms - but almost all my passenger cars are freelanced 72' and 60' cars - why? Because our curves are compressed, even if we have large ones, and a 12 car train of 72' cars close coupled is more impressive to me than an 8 car train of 80' cars with big gaps between them so they can squeek around sharp curves.
I don't use semi scale couplers or code 88 wheels. Those things just draw attention to the fact that our truck side frames are too wide, our rail is too tall, etc.
Code 110 wheels and regular head Kadee couplers provide the best performance on NMRA standard trackage - performance comes first.
I keep weathering really light.........
My layout is large but simple, with large curves and long runs to allow long trains - 30-50 car freighs are typical, curves are 36"R and above, grades are kept at 2% or less.
CTC and signaling is a must - BUT - not all that fussy paperwork and overly complex signal rules of the prototype - our model layouts are too small for all that. The signal system "looks" prototypical, but it skips over actual "block signals" in favor of just having "Interlocking signals" at sidings and junctions. Dispatching is done with just a few pushbuttons, not a three tier set of levers like the prototype. The dispatcher simply sets a route with one button, and assigns the route to the specific train with another - that train now has a a green to the next interlocking.
Layout design rule #1 - only model any feature once - one freight yard, one passenger terminal, one industrial area, one engine terminal, etc. Make them big enough to be realistic, and have staging to simulate trains coming and going.
Display running - my layout plan is setup for "operation" and good display running.
I still use DC, I don't like sound (poor sound quality hurts my ears), and while I build and buy some high detail models, a Blue Box box car is also fine by me, as are the old metal Athearn and Varney cars in my fleet.
Figure out what you like, and have fun.......
One thing I'd like to add to what's already been said...
Building your first complete layout will take substantially more effort than you think it will. If you are concerned that it will take more effort than you can dedicate to it, you definitely should not proceed because it will take far more than you think.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Joining a Model Train Club is better than trying to build a layout, you can even build a module to use in club shows.
I'm currently a member of the Orange County Modular Railroaders Club, (OCMR).
JoeinPA Hey guys. He's new here and probably being moderated. Let's reserve judgement for a while. Joe
Hey guys. He's new here and probably being moderated. Let's reserve judgement for a while.
Joe
Sir Madog Has anyone seen the OP? I think we may have lost him after loading a ton of well meant advice on him.
Has anyone seen the OP? I think we may have lost him after loading a ton of well meant advice on him.
Aye
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
So where is the OP?
Will all this good advice and sympathy go to waste?
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
My general advice would be don't give up now. You can always give up later.
There was a time when I was between layouts. So I built one, a small one: 8 feet long by 4 inches wide. A single track on a minimally scenicked right-of-way. On the wall just above the desk in my office. Kinda like a 3D picture or something. Modern models are very well made and highly detailed and provide a lot of interest to just look at. That small venture into modeling kept the spark alive. For me at any rate.
The coming holiday season is a great excuse to build a small circle of track with a few structures. Who knows, it may lead to something else.
Simon
Hello and welcome to the forum. I'm sorry to hear of your delima. I've been there and done that myself in years past but finally got tired of putting it off and went ahead and built my current N scale layout which took about six weeks. If however you're certain that you'll never build a layout you can always sale all of your stuff on ebay or alike. Good luck to you.
Build a module, even a single track as a display for some cars and an engine. You can then just keep it as a display or expand it.