Yes, nice pictures of those engines, but I think the rear USRA overhang is actually slightly more...on the B&O engines the front cab wall appears to be just a bit over the driver...not so for USRA...they are neat engines. My friend had an Overland EL3A and an EL5A...I once had 3 UP Bull Moose 2-8-8-0's from the same year's run. Missing them all a bit now, but some had electrical issues. That was why I sold mine. Some things I was unable to fix. Having bought mine on yearly OMI sale I was able to sell and break even!
What about that topic a while ago to argue that brass steam was the best running (over) steam engines in HO and IIRC, the topic discussed bad experiences with plastic. Has there been a change in sentiment since that topic?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
My steam fleet is fairly humble compared to a lot of posters here. I have 11 steamers, 8 of which are runners, one is a hanger queen, and 2 are project locomotives awaiting their turn in the shop. My best runner is an old diecast Mantua Pacific. The original open frame motor was decent. A can motor conversion kit gives really good low speed performance.
Equally good runner is a Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 Consolidation. I have had it since 2003, shortly after Bachmann introduced them. Its still pretty much stock.
And, nearly as good a runner, an IHC Mogul 2-6-0. The IHC is too light to be a good puller, and I didn't find any room inside to add lead, but it stays on the track and stays coupled, and is decent at slow speeds.
Rail Images, I clicked each image to full size and then copied the image link into this post.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
riogrande5761 What about that topic a while ago to argue that brass steam was the best running (over) steam engines in HO and IIRC, the topic discussed bad experiences with plastic. Has there been a change in sentiment since that topic?
1. I have been accused of not being objective, of being overly biased in favor of brass, so I thought we could "revisit" the question and see where it actually leads.
2. I am searching out what is worthwhile due to a change in financial status. My son needs to play travel baseball to get playing time due to local politics. That will cost me literally thousands of dollars (it's what he wants to do and he is actually good). Just yesterday a catcher from a team who mercy-ruled his JV team talked to him at a local university's baseball clinic, and was in utter disbelief, seeing my son pitch yesterday, that the jv team wouldn't pitch him, and said he should have been the starting pitcher instead of pitching mop up to get the last batter of the season out...that it would have been a far different game!
3. I do firmly believe you get what you pay for, and there are certain engines out there, some named specifically above in this thread that run extremely well, in my opinion, and clearly the opinion of others above this post, better than anything available in plastic. However, that can come at extreme cost.
And yes, an Athearn Genesis 4-6-6-4 may run 95% or 98% as well as much more expensive brass, but I'm not quite convinced that it would be truly "better than"...
So we'll keep the discussion going and I'll try not to get judgmental of anybody's comments or preferences. Thank you all.
John
PRR8259 riogrande5761 What about that topic a while ago to argue that brass steam was the best running (over) steam engines in HO and IIRC, the topic discussed bad experiences with plastic. Has there been a change in sentiment since that topic? 1. I have been accused of not being objective, of being overly biased in favor of brass, so I thought we could "revisit" the question and see where it actually leads. 2. I am searching out what is worthwhile due to a change in financial status. My son needs to play travel baseball to get playing time due to local politics. That will cost me literally thousands of dollars (it's what he wants to do and he is actually good). Just yesterday a catcher from a team who mercy-ruled his JV team talked to him at a local university's baseball clinic, and was in utter disbelief, seeing my son pitch yesterday, that the jv team wouldn't pitch him, and said he should have been the starting pitcher instead of pitching mop up to get the last batter of the season out...that it would have been a far different game! 3. I do firmly believe you get what you pay for, and there are certain engines out there, some named specifically above in this thread that run extremely well, in my opinion, and clearly the opinion of others above this post, better than anything available in plastic. However, that can come at extreme cost. And yes, an Athearn Genesis 4-6-6-4 may run 95% or 98% as well as much more expensive brass, but I'm not quite convinced that it would be truly "better than"... So we'll keep the discussion going and I'll try not to get judgmental of anybody's comments or preferences. Thank you all. John
A few simple points from my perspective:
ANY mass produced product will have a few duds now and then. In my view, a product as complex as an HO steam locomotive, subject to as many user variables as they are, should be judged mostly on the good reviews unless there is overwhelming negative feedback.
Why? Because there will be defective products that slip though, and there will be unreasonable user demands on the design.
Bachmann has likely made hundreds of thousands of their 2-8-0, do your hear many complaints? No.
I have lots of Bachmann locos, have I had any bad ones? Sure. Did they make it right - EVERY TIME.
Durablity - well, I'm not running a museum display or shop window display, I suspect most of these things will last long enough for my needs - and again, I'm really not concerned about what happens to them when I'm gone - they did not cost that much......I bought them to play with, I own houses as investments......
Accuracy - again, it does not matter how accurate a model is if it is not the model you want. Most want to create some "sense" of a specific place/time/theme - we have to choose from what is out there and/or build/modify it ourselves.
Most of the models talked about so far in this thread are reasonably accurate and/or can be made into more accurate models.
Have I used my skills to make some of these models run even better? Yes. That goes for EVERY brand I have.
Would I ever spend $1500 or $2000 on a single model train locomotive? No. Why? Way past my point of deminishing returns. $500/$600 is my upper limit for sure. Dollar cost average of my 135 piece loco fleet - $120
John, as for your other question/comment in an earlier post about power supplies and various brands of plastic locos. Understand this, DCC is DCC and a DCC loco will always be compromised when not on a full scale DCC system.
Many people want to strattle the fence with the MRC Tech 6, and I understand it is a good piece of equipment, but it is still a compromise - my view, go DCC or don't.
On that note, all these locos that I say run great - DISCLAIMER - none of them have decoders, sound or otherwise. They run on DC, with Aristo Craft Train Engineer throttles in pulse width mode on a max of just under 14 volts.
Some have factory lighting boards, some have homemade directonal lighting, some have lighting boards for other manufacturers. I have number of BLI locos now running with Bachmann tenders and Bachmann lighting boards.
Some locos have had their factory boards modified for better performance - read my Bachmann loco thread from years ago......
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/181314/2111178.aspx#2111178
For those who really want to this to be a plug and play hobby - I suggest Marklin. It is a closed system where everything is of the highest quality and designed to work together.
Short of that, these things will always need care, adjustment and "tweeking".
Better to do a little tweek on a $200 loco than a $2000 one......
Sheldon
Sheldon,
.
Thank you for the pictures. It looks better to me as a 2-8-8-0. Do the rear set of driver wheels (unprototypically) swivel in the frame like a Bachmann EM-1? I do have 24" radius hidden curves that need to be dealt with.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190 Sheldon, . Thank you for the pictures. It looks better to me as a 2-8-8-0. Do the rear set of driver wheels (unprototypically) swivel in the frame like a Bachmann EM-1? I do have 24" radius hidden curves that need to be dealt with. . -Kevin .
Yes, like nearly all modern plastic/diecast articulated locos, the rear engine swivels as well for better performance on sharp curves.
And if you happen to have large curves, the fact that the rear engine swivels is not really noticeable at all.
They are great running locos.
Sheldon--
I can't go dcc, regardless of whether or not I like or don't like it.
I have engines without decoders, that would not be easy or imo worthwhile to convert. I have to use the Tech 6, snd so far have had problems with only one manufacturers' engines. Even before using the Tech 6, that importers' engines gave me some trouble on my layout.
Yet others like them...
I want to retain dc compatibility, so must straddle the fence. I would be closer to removing all decoders than keeping them.
I own 4 HO steam locomotives: a BLI Milwaukee S-3, a MTH DM&IR Yellowstone, a Bachmann USRA light 2-10-2, and a Rivarossi USATC S100 0-6-0.
The only one I would not recommend is the Bachmann 2-10-2, which pulls poorly for a locomotive its size.
The S100 works well for such a small locomotive, but that still means that the electrical pickup and pulling power are limited.
The S-3 is a very good puller although I had some problems when there was a kink in the trackwork at the club (although from the problems other people had I don't think it was especially suceptible to less-than-perfect track).
The Yellowstone runs and pulls well, and was able to handle the track that fouled up the S-3. I think this is because the model has a lot of play in the drivetrain, which helps with staying on the track, but does make it occasionally look a little wobbly. I also had a problem with the excess play causing it to accidentally wedge itself against a support beam in the club roundhouse when I tried to back it out.
I have generally found that any big 4-8-4 that lacks sprung drivers is about the finickiest engine with regard to trackwork.
John, the 4-8-4's being finicky is more likely due to the wheelbase length from #1 driver to #4 driver. Have you also owned a number of 5-coupled engines? (2-10-2's and the like) I would think they would also have the same issues as the 4-8-4's on the same track work because of their wheelbase.
It really doesn't matter if the drivers are sprung or not because the springs are only there for electrical contact. They are not there for suspension.
PRR8259 I have generally found that any big 4-8-4 that lacks sprung drivers is about the finickiest engine with regard to trackwork.
I would agree, the combination of large drivers and number axles makes for long wheelbase issues.
As for the comment above about the Spectrum 2-10-2, agreed, agreed its pulling power is not as good as the 4-8-2 it shares a boiler with, but still not bad. But on the prototype is was little more than a slow jumbo Mikado anyway, not really in a class with any modern power.
I did a recent test for another forum member, If I recall, mine pulled 30 of my 5 ounce piggyback flats on the level, not really too bad for a USRA light.
Sheldon-
I have had no problems operating 2-10-2's on my layout. The BLI ATSF 2-10-2, for example, actually did operate very well on my layout, I just didn't particularly care for the slotted valve rod they designed to allow tight radius operation.
The BLI 4-12-2 ran very well on my layout, too, now that some of my curves are 32" or 30" radius, and the minimum is 26.4".
In contrast, I have owned a number of 4-8-4's from a number of manufacturers, including MTH and BLI. These big drivered, long rigid wheelbase engines have had more problems on my curves than the smaller drivered 2-10-2's I have owned. In some cases the big drivers on the 4-8-4's actually take up a longer wheelbase than the 2-10-2's, so would be of more potential concern.
I like sprung-drivered engines because when they traverse a vertical kink in trackwork, at least for me on my layout which is not perfect, they seem less prone to wobbling or outright derailment (when I owned MTH 4-8-4's, they wanted to derail and I had to fix a number of minor issues with my trackwork that didn't affect other engines). Other 4-8-4's owned since have had less trouble but still minor issues.
I personally prefer the sprung-drivered engines as they seem to track better for me. I have done low speed tests with recent brass (made by Boo Rim since 2010) and was actually able to see the springs keeping drivers down on the rails at a kink, so it appears they actually do make a slight contribution to improved tracking.
I just picked up the SP&S version of the Genesis Z-8 4-6-6-4 and am very satisfied with it. Control and pulling power is excellent, and the sound isn't bad, either. Along with my Proto 2000 2-8-8-2 and my Bachmann 2-6-6-2, these are my best-running plastic locos. (I'm big on articulateds)
Brass-wise, the best running locos I have are, believe it or not, a trio of old Akane Missabe 2-8-8-4's that date from the mid 1960's. I improved the original motors with rare earth magnets, added pickups, articulated the drive shafts, did some replacing of details with newer ones from PSC, and those locos can raise and lower the garage doors. I did the same thing to a pair of PFM Rio Grande L-131's and they're almost as smooth and powerful. Finishing off the big brass articulateds is a pair of Westside Rio Grande L-105 Challengers that can haul anything and look absolutely gorgeous doing it, lol! All of my brass has additional pickups for smooth operation.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Interesting comments Tom, and you are not the only one to prefer the older Akane and Westside articulateds--it seems some others do as well.
I do agree, now, one can never have too many articulateds!
Interesting layout and photos. I see you used a little modeler's license to have D&RGW 2-8-8-4's, which they liked their winter Missabe visitors so much that they did actually contemplate buying their own, according to LeMassena...
Did the post go away about two non-brass D&RGW steam engines?
Yes, I know there was a Proto 2000 power house steam engine back in the early 1990's that represented a 2nd hand steam engine Rio Grande acquired and used for a short time, and of course the short live WWII era Challengers (UP type).
So the only non-brass DRGW HO steam engine are models of minor players; you can't model standard steam era D&RGW on two very minor non-brass steam engines so yes, it's pretty much mostly brass and high cost. I had a D&RGW friend who claimed he was in the top 3% earning category in the US and yep, he modeled early 1950's steam era D&RGW, and bought a bunch of brass steam engines; he could afford it along with the diesels and passenger cars of that transition period. I do think D&RGW std gauge steam is cool, but I can't afford the brass and have my favorite 2nd generation Rio Grande era models too.
Actually, before they ceased steam loco production, Proto 2000 produced a well-detailed model of the Rio Grande 3500 USRA copy articulated built by ALCO in 1927. That is the one I have on my layout, and not the earlier Proto N&W that was bought second hand by the Rio Grande and numbered in the 3550 series during WWII.
I like the USRA copy, class L-107 on the Rio Grande, best of all. However, LeMassena writes they spent a lot of time as helpers, though there are photos where they were the road engine.
Sometimes the PFM 2-6-6-0 Denver & Salt Lake engine is affordable cheap, and sometimes the Custom Brass L-76/N&W Z1a can be found cheaply. They have can motors and good gearboxes...had one once...I am just waiting for another steal on one...
Not all Rio Grande steam is outta sight, but one must shop smart...
Right now I am just happy to have the Genesis 4-6-6-4, and a friend sold me the rare William Kratville book about the Challengers affordably. It is a great read.
John, the L-107 I have from Proto is a very quiet, VERY smooth runner, if a little light on its feet (the Bachmann 2-6-6-2 is actually a better puller out of the box). However, I dabbed some Bullfrog Snot on one of the driver pairs, and it now pulls quite beautifully. I do have a PFM Moffat 2-6-6-0 that I found for a reasonable price when Caboose Hobbies in Denver was still consigning used brass. It's an early one, and though it runs well, it was originally very noisy from that PFM reduction gear. I installed a can motor and it quieted down some, but not all that much. But it's a charmer to watch, lol!
twhite Actually, before they ceased steam loco production, Proto 2000 produced a well-detailed model of the Rio Grande 3500 USRA copy articulated built by ALCO in 1927. That is the one I have on my layout, and not the earlier Proto N&W that was bought second hand by the Rio Grande and numbered in the 3550 series during WWII.
That would have been back in the 1990's? It's probably hard to find now. Back when those came out, I was a grad student and couldn't have afforded one of those Proto articulateds and I bet they are very hard to find now.
As it is, I am firmly a 2nd generation diesel era SP and D&RGW fan so the only reason I would run steam is for a bit of fun, and I can't afford much steam for that purpose.
In fact I never owned an HO steam engine until a couple years ago when I splurged and bought a 3rd run IMRC SP AC-10 Cab Forward steam engine since I had to have at least one. Those were supposed to be the best performing of all the runs IMRC did in HO.
There have been at least 3 L-107's on Ebay recently, but horribly weathered by the owner...how disappointing...words do not describe.
Thats the downside to weathered rolling stock - very often it becomes a liability to sell rather than a bonus. More often than not, weathered models on Ebay look awful to me, although occasionly they look well done and add value. Anyway, I'm not on a treasure hunt for hard to find steam engines. Heck, I'm finding it challenging to keep up with buying rolling stock which fits my focus as it is.
PRR8259 There have been at least 3 L-107's on Ebay recently, but horribly weathered by the owner...how disappointing...words do not describe.
Just one more reason not to view model trains as an investment. I personally keep weathering on the very light side, but I refuse to alter my modeling taste to fit some concern about future value - brass or not.
But the other side for me is that I don't generally buy stuff "already been played with". "used" stuff needs to be more like "new old stock" to interest me.
ATLANTIC CENTRALJust one more reason not to view model trains as an investment. I personally keep weathering on the very light side, but I refuse to alter my modeling taste to fit some concern about future value - brass or not.
It seems to be mostly non model railroaders that mistakenly think trains an investment. I used to hear a lot more people say that back in the 1970's and 1980's, but I'd guess most people who have been around the block a few times know that, in general, buying model trains as an investment is a spurious thing.
That said, weathering is something that really enhances the realism of models, and considering how many I have it's going to take a long time to make that happen. But it does need to be done well or it has the opposite affect. I'm hoping to have a proper shop area where I can practice on some of my cheap models.
But the other side for me is that I don't generally buy stuff "already been played with". "used" stuff needs to be more like "new old stock" to interest me. Sheldon
Same here. Many are selling stuff they bought but never used and is still NIB. I've picked up a number of those type items as well as new old stock. Ether usually work out well. I've sold alot of models that were never ran or test ran only and they were basically NIB too - no complaints.
In contrast to Sheldon, I prefer used (but not abused) stuff, and don't really care if it's weathered or not, as I usually plan to upgrade the details and apply new paint and lettering.Less than half of my currently-owned locomotives were bought new and I'd guess my rolling stock to be about a 50/50 mix of new and used.
Like Sheldon, though, I don't let anyone influence my decision to weather everything to suit my tastes, including brass locomotives. I did find that when I decided to backdate my layout, I had absolutely no difficulty in selling all of my "too new" cars and locomotives (many of them originally, to me, previously used, but upgraded), and I actually made money. On most items it was at least double what I had payed, but there were quite a few that went for considerably more. Perhaps buyers weren't too fussy or I just happened to hit things at the right time. Once I've spent money on something, I simply enjoy it and don't worry about its future value.
Wayne
I had absolutely no difficulty in selling all of my "too new" cars and locomotives (many of them originally, to me, previously used, but upgraded), and I actually made money. On most items it was at least double what I had payed, but there were quite a few that went for considerably more.
Probably most of us have sold some items that were more than we paid for them but as a rule, I don't make money on the stuff I have sold if you average it out. I've never bought anything with future value in mind, other than the fun factor.
I should have been more clear: The weathered L-107's on Ebay were very poorly done, imo. If they were even remotely decent, like the factory weathered Spectrum W&LE 2-6-6-2's that are out there, I'd have bought one. But they are weathered with colors that you never saw on Rio Grande steam--earth tones and mud--maybe on UP or somewhere else, but just not on Rio Grande. Rio Grande steam usually had a greyish, sooty weathered look to it, when not freshly painted.
I actually have no problem paying for nicely weathered equipment, brass or otherwise, as it does look more realistic if it is done "well".
I have a second Genesis 4-6-6-4 sitting here, brand new in box, that I'm actually contemplating sending to my favorite painter for weathering, if I determine that I can keep it (got it on cheap blowout sale, and figured getting both road numbers was the way to go). That way I'd have one engine at least weathered by the guy, if I go ahead and sell the last, and most expensive, brass model...as I said, I now need that money for travel baseball, as selling just that one model would buy one whole season for my son...which was not a concern when I was buying brass as he was not in high school yet, and I had a realistic expectation he would play much more than they played him.
I run and enjoy stuff too, but if it's legitimately worth big bucks, and the wheels show little or no evidence of any wear at all (stainless steel driver tires don't wear), I'm going to sell it for what it's actually worth.
I know one guy, right now, who is a bit disappointed in himself at selling a late PFM Crown Niagara several years back for $975. He is retired now and wants to replace it. They are easily $2500 now.
So, maybe they are not investments per se, but those who held onto some of the later, most desirable stuff, can easily realize some real growth in their assets.
Now plastic...my plastic is only toys to me, and I assume is worth significantly less as soon as I run it.
PRR8259 Sheldon-- they are weathered with colors that you never saw on Rio Grande steam--earth tones and mud--
they are weathered with colors that you never saw on Rio Grande steam--earth tones and mud--
I see that a lot, mud and colors I can't ever recall seeing on real trains - aweful. Maybe people think trains show have mud smeared all over them but not the ones I see now or back whenever. Yuk. Trains have more an even coating of soot and grime.
if I go ahead and sell the last, and most expensive, brass model...as I said, I now need that money for travel baseball, as selling just that one model would buy one whole season for my son... John
Kids are expensive. Due to lifes circumstances, I didn't have a college fund saved up for my daughter and for the past four years, I've had quite a financial burden, which puts a major dent in that "disposable income" and kept my train budget lower than I'd like. Buying that one Cab Forward was a one-off for me as much as it might be nice to have a couple more! My daughter is finished with college and working for Lockheed Martin now so hurray, I make my last college payment for her end of this month! That will free up funds to move to a bigger basement for trains! =P
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