I am going to differ with Larry on this. Using nails to solving the problem is not solving the problem. That is like putting a band aid on an open wound when sutures are required.
I have had to make this type of fix more than once, and my problem was just like yours. Started out with nails, did some filing, did this and that. The real solution is to replace the rail joiner and solder the joint.
Rich
Alton Junction
Brakie, I assure you, if you lived near me I would be begging you to come over.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
richhotrain To be entirely pessimistic, I cannot see fixing the problem without replacing the rail joiner (both rail joiners, in fact) and, for good measure, soldering the rail joiner into place since the rail joint is on a curve. Rich
To be entirely pessimistic, I cannot see fixing the problem without replacing the rail joiner (both rail joiners, in fact) and, for good measure, soldering the rail joiner into place since the rail joint is on a curve.
It can be done by using a pair of pliers and HO spikes. Squeeze the joiner together then spike the track back in gauge like I said before and there is less waste.
If Bear lived near by I would have it fixed in five minutes since I already have the things I need..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Rich, you are succeeding in being entirely pessimistic. And I am being fatalistic about this. If it comes to replacement both joiners will be replaces and soldered, nailed, glued, riveted, welded, in short, done in such a manner as to cure the problem once and for all.
You are correct, Rich. I dont want to hear. I dont want to read it. And I am going to do everything that I can to avoid it. But if I cant avoid it, I cant avoid it, and it will have to be fixed by tearing up and replacing the track.
Oh, happy days are here again!
bearman And now, I have another question about this situation which Rich's most recent post just sparked. If there is a problem with the horizontal rail alignment which cannot be "measured" would I create a bigger problem if I filed along the inside of the rail in an attempt to get rid of any "lip" thereon?
And now, I have another question about this situation which Rich's most recent post just sparked. If there is a problem with the horizontal rail alignment which cannot be "measured" would I create a bigger problem if I filed along the inside of the rail in an attempt to get rid of any "lip" thereon?
If it were me, I would remove the rail joiner, put in a new rail joiner and solder it in place to remove any possibility of a kink.
OK, so as soon as the loco hits that spot on the curve, traveling west to east, the loco derails.
That would eliminate an out of gauge wheelset.
It is either the rail joiner itself or a kink in the rails where they connect on the curve.
Why now? Could be temperature change, humidity change, expansion/contraction, who knows. Happens to me, happens to others.
Why only that loco? Could be the measure of tightness of the trucks, lateral sway, again, who knows.
But when this happens to me with only one loco, fixing the track work is the cure.
You aren't going to want to hear this, but remove and replace the rail joiner. And solder the new rail joiner to the rails to remove any possibility of a kink.
First question...Yes.
Second question...No
Third question...Yes (I guess I was not clear enough)
I have to get some couplers anyways and was delaying until I was in that part of town for other reasons. So there will be a special trip on Wed. I'll get the gauge if things dont work out today or tomorrow, if only to eliminate ALL possible problems.
bearman Good questions, Rich. It is always the front "right" wheel on the lead truck on a curve.
Good questions, Rich. It is always the front "right" wheel on the lead truck on a curve.
Always on the front right wheel on the lead truck. By that, you mean, physically, the same wheel no matter the direction traveled and no matter which way the loco is traveling?
Or, do you mean, the right front wheel as the loco travels, which would mean the left wheel on the on the rear wheelset of the trailing truck when travelling backwards from west to east?
Forget the NMRA gauge. Others will differ with me, but I just don't find it useful.
And now, sports fans, things are getting grimmer. I cant find my gauge which means a trip to the local model RR store which is 15 miles away and is closed Sunday through Tuesday, it used to be closer and open 7 days. There is a hobby store a lot closer but their RR section is getting to be a lot more limited ever since the old-timer who ran the section retired 3 years ago. If he was still around I would be pouring out my troubles to him. He was always great with advice, just like all of you.
Feel free to have a laugh at my expense.
Good questions, Rich. It is always the front "right" wheel on the lead truck on a curve. I'll have to check on the rest of them I'll probably print out this entire thread when I get back later on and have some time to deal with the suggestions that I have not checked yet. Believe me, removing the joiner is not an option. To do that it would be easier and just as messy to tear up the track and re-lay it.
bearman I'll break out the gauge but I am not optimistic. Here is how I trouble shooted the problem. Ranthe loco from west to east over the joiner and the front wheel derailed. After filing and scraping I ran it in reverse, east to west, over the joiner, no problem. Then I switched the direction of the loco and ran it forward east to west over the joiner and no problem. Running it in reverse, west to east, and there is a derailment.
I'll break out the gauge but I am not optimistic. Here is how I trouble shooted the problem. Ranthe loco from west to east over the joiner and the front wheel derailed. After filing and scraping I ran it in reverse, east to west, over the joiner, no problem. Then I switched the direction of the loco and ran it forward east to west over the joiner and no problem. Running it in reverse, west to east, and there is a derailment.
I drew up a crude drawing for myself, "running" the loco all four ways that you described.
One question that I have is, which truck derailed, the lead truck or the trailing truck?
Since the loco is only derailing west to east, it seems that the loco is not the problem but rather the track is the problem.
I assume that it would be somewhat of a problem for you to remove the rail joiner.
When the loco derails, is the track right under the derailment a turnout? A straight piece of track? A curve?
bearman It seems to me if the wheels are out of gauge or the track is out of gauge then the derailment would occur in either direction. The last thing I want to do is tear up the track in question and re-lay it. The thought chills my spine.
It seems to me if the wheels are out of gauge or the track is out of gauge then the derailment would occur in either direction. The last thing I want to do is tear up the track in question and re-lay it. The thought chills my spine.
While that is true 99% of the time there is that 1% that is caused by a slightly out of gauge wheel and a slightly out of gauge rail joint. Been there several times over the years and its always a pain and can lead to this:.
Also recall 99% of the time our equipment is most forgiving over less then perfect track..
If the joint is slightly out of gauge there is no need to rip out the track. I simply use HO spikes (not track nails) and spike it back in gauge. That's a old school trick that still works quite well.
Check the loco and make sure one of the wheels doesn't have a chunk missing out of it. Wouldn't be the first time.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Randy, I have done the finger test and everything looks ok from that perspective, although I will break out the gauge and fiddle with the joint a little later on. I filed the joiner because that looked like the obvious problem but now I am not so sure. The alignment both vertically and horizontally appear to be fine, and it is a nice tight joint.
Mike, the joint is not loose, I am sure of that. And it is only happening with one particular locomotive.
Having typed all this I will, in fact, take the suggestions that I have not yet implemented to check out that joint.
Depending on their cause, derailments from gauge problems can occur only in one direction. You mentioned a joiner, so I'm guessing the issue is where the rails meet with it? Is the transition from one rail to another all in gauge smoothly? Perhaps one rail is a bit tight or loose, causing the edge of the rail to protrude? This may allow the wheels to roll past in one direction, but be just enough bump to cause issues in the other.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Also sight along the rail, or run a fingernail over the joint - could be that the two piece of rail are not lined up, slight side to side offset can cause a derailment going one direction but not the other. Vertical mismatch can too but it would have to be much greater to have the same effect. Inside edge is where it matters, the outsides can be offset and nothing will happen, so long as the inside lines up.
It's not very likely a 'modern' model with proper flanges would strike a rail joiner, unless the joiner is really bent up, which means it will not be holding the rails in horizontal alignment.
Mike, I have done that from the side but I did not run the loco as slow as possible, I ran it at speed #5, but it will run at a lower speed so I will try that out.
If I can jump in here, just something I do to fix problems, can you get your eyes right down on the locos trucks as it passes through this area, while running the loco as slow as possible, and watch to see what is happening?
Mike.
My You Tube
Every time, Rich, and the problem started two days ago.
bearman I edited my initial response to identify the locomotive, Walthers GP9, #2092.
I edited my initial response to identify the locomotive, Walthers GP9, #2092.
We are typing and editing simultaneously.
I saw your GP9 edit.
I am in agreement with Larry that a wheelset may be out of gauge. Does the loco derail every time over that same spot, or just occasionally?
I would break out the NMRA gauge and check things since it could be one wheel is slightly out of gauge and the joint is slightly out of gauge causing the headache..
Bear, before your reply was posted, I re-read your initial post and then edited my own reply. I had raised the issue of stall versus short, but then upon re-reading saw that you indicated a derailment.
So, no recent track work, and the locomotive had performed flawlessly in the past.
The GP9 is a four axle diesel, the least susceptible locomotive to derailments compared to six axle diesels and steam locomotives.