I am 67 and have gotten back into model railroading for about the last 4 years. I've begun with an HO layout which is approximately 6 1/2' x20'. with a few grades here and there. I have trouble with cars derailing after rounding the track 20 or 30 times flawlessly. Also have trains break apart at the couplers at varius times. I have been considering changing to O gauge to eliminate all this frustration. I do have an old Lionel 027 train set from the late 40's so I would have something to start with. Would you consider making this change? I do have quite a bit of work involved in the HO layout but it has been so frustrating I am loosing interest and haven't made much progress this past winter since I've been considering this change. What would be the pros and cons of making this switch?
Hi Ken:
Welcome to the forums!!!
I have no idea what your knowledge and skill levels are so I will just throw in my worth.
Derailments and unwanted uncoupling can be prevented if you are prepared to spend the time bringing your rolling stock up to NMRA RPs (Recommended Practises) and fine tuning your track. Perhaps you have tried that already.
Unwanted uncoupling can be caused by not having all your couplers at exactly the same height. Kadee sells a couple of different gauges to measure coupler height. They are essentially the same but one is insulated so you can put it on live track. Coupler height becomes more important when there is a grade change. Plastic couplers can flex a bit which may contribute to missalignment, especially on long trains.
Derailing can be caused by flaws in the track. Even though your track may look good from your normal viewing perspective, getting down and eyeing the track to see if there are any minor kinks is a good thing to do. Also, taking pictures down the track can show a lot that the naked eye can't see.
Another cause for derailing is not having the trucks pivoting properly. If a truck is stiff it can easily ride up over the rails. Car weight also come into play. The NMRA has an RP that suggests the weight for various length cars. It is basically 1 oz. + 1/2 oz for every 1" of car length. If you have some lightweight cars close to the front of a longer train they can be pulled off the track in the curves.
As for O gauge, I know nothing other than that it is apparently expensive. If you are into detailing you can do some really fine stuff though.
The important thing is to be happy. Model railroading is supposed to be fun. If you are not having fun in HO then perhaps you should try O.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Hello Ken,
I echo Ken's suggestions. Since you say that everything runs fine for a while, I suspect your problems involve your rolling stock. There are many variables. What type of cars do you run? Do they have body mounted couplers or do the couplers pivot with the trucks? Body mounted are the most trouble free. Are thay knuckle couplers? Checking the items Ken mentioned will involve some time and a little expense to go thru all the steps, but will be a lot easier than tossing out your current layout and starting from scratch. Most fellows our age (I'm 67 as well) switch to a large scale because they are having trouble seeing. If that doesn't come into play, you should stick with HO. While any new models aren't cheap in any scale, O gauge is on the most expensive end. You will find lots of help here, and a search of the foums will answer most of your concerns. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.
Sounds like you are considering 3 rail O gauge as opposed to 2 rail O scale.
3 rail does have some advantages. The wheels have very deep flanges, which reduces but does not eliminate derailments. My Lionels derail from time to time, usually on the switches. You can alleviate this by using large radius turnouts and large radius curves. Also the bigger couplers help, but the trains do uncouple sometimes. Dummy couplers can help here, but then you can't couple/uncouple unless you lift one of the cars. As suggested for HO, make sure your cars have some weight - you might even overweight them a little. The larger pieces are easier to work with but you still to make sure all the track is connected correctly and not kinked.
Some disadvantages of 3 rail include: That third rail is not prototypical - some are bothered by this, some are not. Lionel O27 and many other 3 rail cars and locomotives are not true O scale which is 1:48. Again this bothers some and not others. You'll need to learn which are which if it's important to you. Buildings and trains take up a lot more space in O than HO so you get less railroad in the same space. Unless you use one of the command control systems, slow speed is difficult to achieve. Lionel and MTH command control systems are not compatible.
If running trains in a railfan type fashion is what you like (as opposed to switching or prototypical operations) then 3 rail O gauge might be a good choice. But your old O27 set might have age related problems so you might want a newer set.
Good luck
Paul
Keyboardken I have trouble with cars derailing after rounding the track 20 or 30 times flawlessly.
I have trouble with cars derailing after rounding the track 20 or 30 times flawlessly.
Rich
Alton Junction
Thanks for your help Dave. Being in this hobby for 4 years I still consider myself a novice. I don't have many people I can talk to that are into trains. I get most of my results from trial and error, reading online, or Model Railroader. I do really hate to start over because I have quite a bit involved and I'm sure it would be quite difficult to get curves and hills to match changing to O gauge track. You've given me quite a few tips I will look into and try and I wish to thank you.
Ken
Hi Slammin,
Thanks you for your suggestions. I will give the couplers a check. I have about 100 pieces of rolling stock that I usually just pick out randomly to run. Some of my stock have the knuckle couplers and some have the old black ones( not sure what those are called but those seem more sturdy) Either way, thank you for the suggestions.
Thank you for your comments Rich. I purchased all new Code 83 track and it does seem pretty good but with hills and curves it's not a surefire. I will give the couplers a good looking into. Thank you again for your help.
Hi Paul,
Thanks for all your help and explanations. From just doing more thinking and reading the what others wrote I might try to the HO a little more time. I haven't really checked into O gauge a lot so I'm not sure if I would want to go with the 2 or 3 rail. It seems like when I go to train shows there is quite a bit of Lionel though so I feel there are options. Again, thank you for your help.
I'm having the same debate in my head, though due to detail level, eyesight, and ability to handle things when the day comes that I do grow older. Since I model a single town branch, seems like it would work, but I am concerned about length of switches and curve radius fitting into a 12x12 room. Still some thinking going on.
jim
The choice of scale is a very personal one and depends on what you´d like to get out of building and operating a layout.
This is mainly a HO scale forum, so don´t be too disappointed if the majority of answers point you towards staying in this scale.
I have my own view on the issue. I have always had a secret love to bigger scales - the bigger the better. And I love to play with my trains - and when I say play, I mean play, not operate. I really get a kick out of seeing O scale big steam working hard pulling a long string of box cars. Just take a look at Norm Charbonneau´s sadly by now dismantled layout and you understand what I mean.
Nothing beats the sound and the feel of that!
Unfortunately, I never had the space nor the funds to go down that route.
I switched from N to HO about 20 years ago. If I had the room and funds I would switch to 2 rail O scale in a heartbeat. My desire for better detail is frustrating in HO scale.
.
I have neither. My space is 12 by 22, and I cannot make the layout I want in O scale within that space. I have already purchased 90% of what I need to complete my layout, and I do not want to do that again.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I did the same thing. Was in N while in the service and moving a lot. When I got out I switched to HO for the greater detail. That's the reason I'm considering O now, but don't know if I can make it fit.
IRONROOSTERLionel and MTH command control systems are not compatible.
This is not correct. I have Legacy and DCS connected on the same track.
Some thoughts on O guage trains in general: everything is longer. 40' box cars are 10" or so. Passenger cars are 18-22" (scale stuff). A seven car passenger train with A-B-A set of E units is over 14' long. If you are limited to 6.5' in width, you will be able to accomodate O72 curves. Ross Custom Switches makes and excellent product. The Lionel Fastrack seems to be a good product as well.
Postwar Lionel stuff is near bullet proof, with care and maintenance it will run for a long time. That having been said, Im one of those people that is bothered by the non-scale rolling stock. I run Scale dimnenstioned equipment on 3 rail. The 3 rail doesnt bother me all that much, and if I ever win the lottery, Im buying a railroad and laying a 3rd rail down the middle, just to mess with the 2 Rail scale O guys....
As someone who recently considered this, my recommendation would be try to build something in O. Then compare to your HO efforts. For example, if you have your O27 engine, see what it takes to get it running again. Take it apart (carefully!), clean it, and fix anything broken.
While I found O to be compelling for its size and detail, my current living situation is not O friendly. But scratchbuilding a caboose was fun.
Modeling whatever I can make out of that stash of kits that takes up half my apartment's spare bedroom.
Thank you for your comment and the video. I'm actually having a very wide range of comments and luckily not all of them are wanting me to stick with HO.
BMMECNYC IRONROOSTER Lionel and MTH command control systems are not compatible. This is not correct. I have Legacy and DCS connected on the same track.
IRONROOSTER Lionel and MTH command control systems are not compatible.
Yes, but will your Legacy control system run MTH protosound locomotives? or DCS control system run Lionel Legacy/TMCC locomotives?
MTH's catalog claims operation for it's Protosound 3 locomotives with AC, DC, DCS, and DCC. No claim for Lionel's Legacy system.
Lionel claims it's Legacy locomotives run with Legacy or conventional power - I haven't seen a claim for more.
And then of course there's the whole TMCC and earlier Protosound versions out there, as well as, Lion Chief and Lionel Chief Plus.
I'm looking at this from a slightly different point of view - that of a 79 year old arthritic cancer survivor who has been modeling Japanese prototype HOj scale (1:80) for better than a half-century. Kitbashing and outright scratchbuilding are challenging, but far from impossible, and I enjoy the process of making track and rolling stock as bulletproof as possible.
My present layout is HOj, designed to reproduce the hectic operation of a prototype rail route that saw (and probably still sees) over 100 train movemnts on a slow day.
In the highly unlikely event that I would change gauges, I would concentrate on my two narrower-gauge prototypes and model On2 1/2 gauge (1:48 scale, 16.5mm track gauge) on my present benchwork. That would take the pressure off the operation side and give me more time to build and detail models of Kiso Forest Railway and Kurobe Gorge Railway prototypes. The one station with token 3'6" gauge track might never see a JNR car.
I have seen center-rail O gauge and scale O, both two rail and outside third rail. Neither is a good fit for my druthers in anything smaller than a gymnastics floor exercise mat (40 x 40) and I would insist on laying at least 48 inch radius curves with flex track and hand-laying my own turnouts. Other modelers probably don't have my aesthetic standards, and would be comfortable with Lionel street corner curves and lack of spiral curve approaches - which is their right. One size will never fit all.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
IRONROOSTER BMMECNYC IRONROOSTER Lionel and MTH command control systems are not compatible. This is not correct. I have Legacy and DCS connected on the same track. Yes, but will your Legacy control system run MTH protosound locomotives? or DCS control system run Lionel Legacy/TMCC locomotives? MTH's catalog claims operation for it's Protosound 3 locomotives with AC, DC, DCS, and DCC. No claim for Lionel's Legacy system. Lionel claims it's Legacy locomotives run with Legacy or conventional power - I haven't seen a claim for more. And then of course there's the whole TMCC and earlier Protosound versions out there, as well as, Lion Chief and Lionel Chief Plus. Paul
Paul,
Legacy will run all Lionel products, I have a TMCC locomotive that runs just fine with the Legacy controller and the MTH throttle.
The reason why (this is an assumption) MTH does not mention Legacy in its cataloge is that LEGACY is a Lionel trademark. There are rules about using other companies trademarks and copyrighted property in a publication, and it has gotten the O 3rail manufacurers in trouble in the past (there was a bunch of lawsuits, and now K-line is gone).
MTH handheld will run anything Lionel that has a TMCC/Legacy address. It will also run conventional locomotives. Legacy Handheld does not run MTH locomotives in command mode as far as I can tell.
As far as I know you need the MTH system or DCC to run MTH locomotives in Command mode. I have not tried or looked into how to run MTH locomotives from the Legacy Throttle, because I have no need to. The MTH throttle is more user friendly.
Personnally I prefer the MTH throttle to the Legacy, you can hold it one handed and it doesnt have a charging system that can catch on fire (happened to a friend). My legacy battery charger failed after first use. I could send it in for repair, but I dont use that feature, so I dont care. I dont use it that much so its not a big deal.
To say that the control systems are not compatable is completely incorrect, they are exactly compatable, in fact they are connected electrically and running trains at this moment 10ft away from my computer.
IRONROOSTERLionel claims it's Legacy locomotives run with Legacy or conventional power - I haven't seen a claim for more. And then of course there's the whole TMCC and earlier Protosound versions out there, as well as, Lion Chief and Lionel Chief Plus.
http://www.lionelstore.com/SSP%20Applications/Lionel%20Store%20Shop/Lionel%20Store%20Shop/LionelStore%20Supporting%20Documents/6582LEGACYv15Manual31513.pdf
Please read the first sentence on page 2.
BMMECNYCAs far as I know you need the MTH system or DCC to run MTH locomotives in Command mode
BMMECNYCTo say that the control systems are not compatable is completely incorrect
Sounds like not compatible to me.
IRONROOSTER BMMECNYC As far as I know you need the MTH system or DCC to run MTH locomotives in Command mode BMMECNYC To say that the control systems are not compatable is completely incorrect Sounds like not compatible to me. Paul
BMMECNYC As far as I know you need the MTH system or DCC to run MTH locomotives in Command mode
BMMECNYC To say that the control systems are not compatable is completely incorrect
I said I dont know if the MTH locomotive will run off the Legacy system (in command mode), because I have no need to run them that way. Read as I dont like the Legacy handheld.
You can indeed run MTH locomotives in conventional mode, just like a post-war locomotive. So you can run an MTH Locomotive on a LEGACY layout.
I hope this has been at least informational to the original poster.
Chuck brings up a good point re taking a look at On30 - 1:48 O scale narrow gauge, designed to run on HO-gauge track. Wouldn't cost to much to pick up say a Bachmann 2-6-0 and a couple of their freight cars and try it out on your existing layout...you will need to check the area around the track, as the On30 equipment is quite a bit wider than standard gauge HO stuff!
BTW if you have a 1940's Lionel train set, most likely it still works fine. Might need to have someone clean and lube it, but those old Lionel engines were pretty sturdy. Lionel, MTH and Atlas (and others) make 1:48 scale models designed to run on three-rail track. If you can fit O-72 curves (six foot diameter) onto your layout, you should be able to run any three rail engine or car.
Ken,
Some simple recordkeeping can help with this issue as well. Every time you have a derailment or cars that come uncoupled, mark the spot on the layout with a push pin. Then record the car reporting marks and what the issue was (paper and pen works, Microsoft Excel is better). After a bit of time you will either see the same cars showing up on the list for the same problems, get a bunch of push pins at the same location(s) on the layout, or both. The same car showing up on the list repeatedly tells you to give the car a good once over looking for wheels out of gauge, insufficient car weight, wrong coupler height, etc. A bunch of push pins at the same location on the layout indicates a potential trackwork issue at that location that needs investigating. After you locate some of these culprits and perform some repairs, remove the push pins/car from the list and continue. If they act up again, the get marked up again. Eventually you should get it all straightened out. Takes some patience at first, but pays off.
Mike
Thank you for the comment. Sound like a great idea. I have been noticing a certain area and I'm pretty sure it was the weight of the car. I gotten some great ideas and things to think about from the forum here. I have these ideas but the forum here and got me to finally get busy and use them. Checking couplers, weight, etc. Thanks
Thanks for the idea but my mainline is pretty close to the sides of my layout and there wouldn't be any room for a wider engine or rolling stock. I actually could take up my inside track and lay out my 027 to get an idea. The last time it was run was probably back in the 70's but it was in my parents attic ever since. It looks to be in decent shape so I can't see why it wouldn't run. I might give that a spin. Thanks again for your post.
Thank you for your comment. I am going to give that Lionel a shot and see what my feelings are.
wjstixChuck brings up a good point re taking a look at On30 - 1:48 O scale narrow gauge, designed to run on HO-gauge track. Wouldn't cost to much to pick up say a Bachmann 2-6-0 and a couple of their freight cars and try it out on your existing layout...you will need to check the area around the track, as the On30 equipment is quite a bit wider than standard gauge HO stuff!
Trainworld has a sale on Bachmann On30 4-4-0s, DCC, for $59.99 each.
KeyboardKen - I've been in the hobby for 50 years. Started with Lionel, then a lengthy stint in HO (even belonged to a club), then delved off into N scale, then back into O (3 rail) 20 years ago. As I've got older, I've grown fonder of the nostalgia of toy trains. The smells of gear oil, smoke pellets, ozone. The feel and heft of the diecast engines, and the throttle of a LW or a ZW transformer (don't we have enough remotes in our lives...?). More recently, I've been collecting some Lionel Postwar pieces (trading away some of my N scale collection believe it or not). I get more satisfaction in cleaning and lubricating the old stuff then I ever did in my earlier forrays.
At 6x20 feet, you have more than enough benchwork to establish a 3-rail layout. Because of the smaller radius of O-27, O-31, O-42, and O-54, you may even be able to use most of your existing HO roadbed.
Take out those old trains. Run them around on the floor for a bit. If the juices start flowing, you'll have your answer.
And if you do make the switch, check out the CTT forum for support.
Come on in, the water's fine...
Ken you should really give O Gauge(3 Rail) or O Scale (2 Rail) a look, it can be VERY rewarding, O Gauge/Scale have a Presence to them that anything smaller than "S" just doesn't have.
In 2005, I went to my LTS, Whistle Stop Trains, in Portland, OR and told Charlie the owner " You know that I have been an "HO" guy for more than 35 years, but I have a dog, and HO, especially Steam, isn't working on the floor. I need some Lionel for under the Tree. I need a Steam Locomotive, it HAS to be Union Pacific, half a dozen freight cars, a loop of track and transformer"
There weren't any RTR sets that met al my "NEEDS" in stock, so we put together a "Set" from loose items. Yeah. I KNOW, UP never had any Hudson's[;). I took that set home and set it up, and was Absolutely HOOKED by the larger trains, the next weekend I was back at Whistle Stop and took home an MTH F3 passenger set, in Armour Yellow and Harbor Mist Grey, Of Course. After that I never looked back, I don't think that I have bought a single piece of HO for myself since.
As far as the Lionel and MTH Command Control systems compatabity, here is the scoop (I Have Both) Like DCC, both systems use a constant voltage to the track, Each system ill obviously control it's own respective equipment, the systems can coexisist on the same layout at the same time without interfering with each other. The MTH system CAN control Lionel TMCC and LEGACY equipment, BUT, it requires a Lionel base to be used and connected to the DCS base, with a special cord. DCS can ONLY control TMCC level functions, and not any LEGACY level functions. Lionel's TMCC/Legacy systems can NOT control any DCS Functions. Lionel's Lion Chief and LC+ locomotives can run on a layout using either system, it uses the same constant voltage track power, BUT must be controlled by it's own respective controller, and can NOT be controlled by either Lionel's TMCC/Legacy, or MTH's DCS systems.
So it boils down to just HOW one defines "COMPATABLE" as to if the systems are compatable with each other. No ONE system will operate and support ALL the Functions and Features of the other systems, BUT they can ALL be OPERATED TOGETHER, without any trouble.
On a PIECE for PIECE basis, "O" can be/is more expensive, but on a square footage of layout basis, the cost typically come in a lot closer. VERY few of us have the room to design the "PERFECT for us" layout regardless of scale. Typically we have a "Real Estate" constraint where we design our layout to fit the space that we have available. There is no doubt that if a modeler were to build the SAME EXACT layout in "O" as He/She did in "HO" or "N", it would be more expensive.
But building a layout to fit an available space, a modeler will have very different layouts, depending on the scale chosen. "N" and "Z" scales really lend them selves to LOOOOONG trains and Impressive Moutainous scenery. "HO" is a pretty good compromise scale, still some decent train lengths and scenery possibilities, in "S" scale the trains are getting more impressive, but the scenery possibilities are starting to narrow. In "O" you are really starting to model the trains themselves, unless you have a large space available. In the space that many would be able to manage a decent mainline in Z, N or even HO, an O layout is more likely to model a branchline, or industrial area. There is NO Right, Wrong or Best answer, but rather what is BEST for the particular modeler based on what their wants, space and budget all can support.
O Gauge/Scale has a very diverse product line available from 027 toy trains to 2 Rail scale that will surpass HO Brass for detail. Even 3 Rail Scale (3RS) with the exception of the operationall required oversized flages and couplers, the detail can surpass HO Brass.
I have heard SO MANY TIMES, "I Could NEVER, live with that Third Rail", Then have the same modeler describe how he is modeling(in HO) a 100 mile sub-division on a 4x8 layout with a gleem in his eye, while watching a Big Boy do 40 SMPH around an 18" radius curve, where a Big Boy would be tip toeing around a 40" radius in real life. Model railroading is as much a Hobby of Balances and Compromises,as it is about Trains, and we each choose which balances and compromises to accept, to get the most Enjoyment we can out of the hobby.
Just a few examples of what is available in "O Gauge"
These are both Lionel, the O model is semi-scale from the Lionmaster Line, not full O Scale. Both are Challenger3980 Doug
These are both Lionel, the O model is semi-scale from the Lionmaster Line, not full O Scale. Both are Challenger3980
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails