Howdy,
Long story short, after a long-time absence from model trains (in my childhood), I'm trying to get back into it by planning a "first" layout.
I'm looking at doing a bit of everything on it, and after many days (weeks?) of searching, reading, more searching and reading, it appears to me that track options on Code 83 (where everyone seems to be going these days) are pretty thin when it comes to track geometry.
Aside from Walthers-Shinohara, all major manufacturers only offer a "standard" set of turnouts in Code 83, and no "speciality" geometry like curved turnouts, wyes, 3-ways, cross-overs, double-slips...
So, this might seem obvious to someone, but I spent hours looking for a definitive answer if modelers in North America use Code 75 track in their layouts and whether current NA equipment runs well on it?
I'm potentially looking at Peco Code 75 as it offers a pretty decent variety of track geometries but I'm concerned with its reliability.
My other choices are obviously W/S Code 83, but I read matching their turnouts to other flex track requires additional work (I'm not paying 2x the price for W/S flex :-) ).
Another option I found was Tillig Code 83 but sourcing that in North America is proving to be a bit difficult.
Lastly, there's the Roco Line (also Code 83) which appears decent, has a fair offering but is mostly geared towards European (tighter) curves. I suppose I could sell my current (North American) H0 equipment and go for all European, but the cost seems to be higher for it, although I like the looks, and generally shorter cars.
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I have been using the older Roco Line (soft roadbed but is Code 83) since 2001. I have a small layout but have never had any issues running Atlas, Proto or Athearn locomotives and freight cars on it. All of locomotives are four axle Alcos or GP 40s.
DRfanI have been using the older Roco Line (soft roadbed but is Code 83) since 2001. I have a small layout but have never had any issues running Atlas, Proto or Athearn locomotives and freight cars on it. All of locomotives are four axle Alcos or GP 40s.
I read somewhere (off top of my head) that there is a problem with Roco turnouts and NA wheelsets, whereas wheels would dip into the frog gaps, sometimes causing derailments, and other times having that annoying bump.
Your older Roco Line has fixed radii, no (something like 24" or less, or you are not using sectional track)?
I think I also read that they had to change the old Roco Line to geoLine due to patent issues when the management changed.
Peco code 75 flex is European prototype, not NA. I believe their code 75 turnouts are also European style, but you might want to verify that. It also seems impossible to buy bulk code 75 rail in the US, in case you wanted to hand lay turnouts. At least I could not locate a source when I looked.
What is your era and prototype? Perhaps you could go down to code 70 if you are transition era and planning to model something like a regional line who had not yet upgraded their 100 - 115 lb rail to something heavier.
CG
I use Walthers/Shinohara 83 for my standard gauge and Shinohara code 70 dual gauge trackwork. For the flex, I use ME 83 standard and code 70 dual gauge.
There will be no problem with NA equipment on code 70, assuming recent vintage, say post-1980 (although most before will be fine, too).
Euro spec rolling stock may not be happy, I dunno never run any as I have only a few pieces and no loco.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
CentralGulfPeco code 75 flex is European prototype, not NA. I believe their code 75 turnouts are also European style, but you might want to verify that. It also seems impossible to buy bulk code 75 rail in the US, in case you wanted to hand lay turnouts. At least I could not locate a source when I looked. What is your era and prototype? Perhaps you could go down to code 70 if you are transition era and planning to model something like a regional line who had not yet upgraded their 100 - 115 lb rail to something heavier. CG
My SO (Supreme Overlord) and I are building this layout together so the track prototype is not that big of a concern - more is the availability of track geometries to fit our available space (approx. 23x12 feet).
We aren't set in a specific time period, though you could say that the transition era would be one of the interests (although we do like modern equipment as well, so the layout might end up being freestyle).
Part of me is still bemoaning whether to even go with H0. I have already gathered some H0 equipment (both locos and rolling stock), yet N scale is luring me with its appeal of the amount of track I could fit in the space (3-4 times more).
I always liked H0 better for its size and detail, but N had come a long way since my childhood days, sound and all.
mlehman I use Walthers/Shinohara 83 for my standrad gauge and Shinohare code 70 dual gauge trackwork. For the flex, I use ME 83 standard and code 70 dual gauge. There will be no problem with NA equipment, assuming recent vintage, say post-1980 (although most before will be fine, too). Euro spec rolling stock may not be happy, I dunno never run any as I have only a few pieces and no loco.
I use Walthers/Shinohara 83 for my standrad gauge and Shinohare code 70 dual gauge trackwork. For the flex, I use ME 83 standard and code 70 dual gauge.
There will be no problem with NA equipment, assuming recent vintage, say post-1980 (although most before will be fine, too).
Did you have to do adjustments (shims, or filing the tips of the rail) to match the W/S turnouts to the ME flex?
Elsewhere on the forums here people mentioned that being one of the "gotchas"...
(I'm still on "probation" so my posts are ending up in moderation queue and will end up showing in bulk it seems.)
TrainzLuvrSo, this might seem obvious to someone, but I spent hours looking for a definitive answer if modelers in North America use Code 75 track in their layouts and whether current NA equipment runs well on it?
Yes. Many US outline modelers use PECO Code 75 and it works fine. This is especially true of recently made HO equipment. PECO components are very reliable in my experience. Some folks don't like the looks of the curved-diverging-leg turnouts, but they are very space-efficient (much more so than Walthers C83, for example).
Any older equipment (like Rivarossi from 20+ years ago, for example) that might possibly have trouble with the PECO Code 75 might also be a problem with Code 83.
If you are worried about it, PECO also offers HO Code 100 with many of the same track components.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Code 75 and 83 peco, work fine, the 75 is good for branch lines if you use 83 as the main..
Code 83 #6 switch is very close to a code 75 medium radius... I had trouble finding an extra switch one day and made comparisons, it dont look out of place...
If you check Peco's website, you will find .pdf files that show the geometry of there points(switch's) and can use to compare...
They are also extending there line of products, regularly...
wraitheCode 75 and 83 peco, work fine, the 75 is good for branch lines if you use 83 as the main..
There will still be some shimming and/or filing if one mixes codes, which the Original Poster noted that he was seeking to avoid.
TrainzLuvrAside from Walthers-Shinohara
Is there some issue with the Walthers code 83 line?
Also, PECO in their code 83 line has #5, #6, and #8 turnouts, #4 wye, a #6 diamond crossing, and #7 curved turnouts:
http://www.peco-uk.com/page.asp?id=tempc83
maxman...Is there some issue with the Walthers code 83 line?...
I think the price is the issue.
I've used code 83 Walthers/Shinohara, Peco, Micro Engineering, and Atlas turnouts on my layout, mostly with Atlas flex track and ME code 83 rail on Central Valley tie strips. Joining the different brands presented little difficulty. In my opinion, the Peco is the most well-engineered and the Atlas the easiest to use.Most of the W/S and Peco, along with several of the ME turnouts, were gifts from a friend who didn't need them for his layout...otherwise, most would generally have been out of my price range for the number I needed. Most of the original portion of the layout is Atlas turnouts (with some Shinohara) and it has been very reliable. I believe Atlas has recently released curved turnouts, too.
Wayne
I apologize, my replies are still moderated so the ones I replied to have not been posted yet at this time of writing.
....
Yes, cost is the issue for W/S else I'd probably go both flex and turnouts from them.
So, mixing and matching is at hand, I'm just not too keen on filing and shimming, even though it seems it might be a non-issue when "done properlyTM".
Also, I was thinking of going Peco Code 75 all the way, not just branch lines, but mains, yards, etc. Would this be a problem (aside from possible non-prototypical looks). Or, at least use Code 83 on the main line, while yards, sidings etc would be in Code 75.
I have also found a source for Tillig ELITE track and turnouts. Although it seems shipping it across the World would be a bit pricey, at a total cost of about 15% more of what a box of 10 Code 83 Atlas flex tracks costs me here, it seems worth the investment.
Tillig still ends up costing 1/2 the price of W/S flex. :)
TrainzLuvrAlso, I was thinking of going Peco Code 75 all the way, not just branch lines, but mains, yards, etc. Would this be a problem (aside from possible non-prototypical looks).
It would work fine. Many US outline layouts have been built totally of PECO Code 75.
The late Stein Rypern (steinjr to this parish) used Peco code 75 track and switches for his layout, although the have European (British) style tie length, arrangement and spacing. When ballasted, this is hardly to be seen, but - it is not prototypical for a North American outline layout.
Tillig track has been mentioned. Tillig follows continental European practice, but their switches are said to have quality issues, despite their rather high price.
If you don´t mind changing to code 100, than Piko (not Peco) track and switches are a cheap, but good quality alternative.
Sir Madog The late Stein Rypern (steinjr to this parish) used Peco code 75 track and switches for his layout, although the have European (British) style tie length, arrangement and spacing. When ballasted, this is hardly to be seen, but - it is not prototypical for a North American outline layout. Tillig track has been mentioned. Tillig follows continental European practice, but their switches are said to have quality issues, despite their rather high price. If you don´t mind changing to code 100, than Piko (not Peco) track and switches are a cheap, but good quality alternative.
To be honest, I did not think of Piko so I'll have to look at that, if it can be even sourced locally. With Code 100, many don't like its appearance, although modern railways seem to be using much bulkier rail than that for heavier, and higher speed trains. But I guess most aren't modeling modern railways.
Also, I just came back from the LHS and they don't have much of Code 75 (couple of switches, a cross and four double slips, all under the regular price). Matter a fact their supplier has no flex track in Code 75 at all, and no indication of when they'll have it.
My head hearts from all this.
And to be honest, shipping (any) track from across the world to fulfill some crazy notion of prototypical look, at a great expense of time and money looks less and less appealing.
Whereabouts on the globe do we have to locate you?
Ontario, Canada.
TrainzLuvrAlso, I just came back from the LHS and they don't have much of Code 75 (couple of switches, a cross and four double slips, all under the regular price). Matter a fact their supplier has no flex track in Code 75 at all, and no indication of when they'll have it.
You might want to shop for a new retailer first. PECO track is pretty widely available from on-line retailers.
If you have your heart set on Code 83 (that is not Walthers), you might choose PECO Code 83 for most of the layout and then only adapt to a few Walthers components where needed for something special.
But note also that Walthers catalog prices are MSRP (because Walthers is primarily a distributor and importer, not a retailer). Walthers track is usually for sale at other retailers at a discount.
I really have my heart set on Tillig Code 83, but it might be too expensive to import all the track and turnouts. :(
The LHS I went to is one of the larger ones (or the largest one I know of) in the area, and they get a lot of their items from Walthers. Maybe there's no demand here for Code 75 so stock is low, or non-existent.
I feel a bit demoralized, or even lost in a sense, as to what direction to choose.
Something I read recently kinda stuck in my mind, which is that one should adopt equipment that's readily available, so when you need an item on Sunday afternoon, you can easily get it from a LHS. Of course I always seem to be pointing my finger at the Moon and missing all the "heavenly glory."
Here's a thread on another forum (it's in German but it translates ok) where the OP compares various tracks (and codes) to compatiblity with RP25 wheelsets:
http://www.h0-modellbahnforum.de/t306043f54859-Kompatibilitaet-Peco-Piko-Roco-Tillig-mit-RP-HAMO.html
In case someone has an interest in this now or, later in the future.
TrainzLuvrSomething I read recently kinda stuck in my mind, which is that one should adopt equipment that's readily available, so when you need an item on Sunday afternoon, you can easily get it from a LHS.
If the limited stock your local retailer carries limits you, what price convenience?
TrainzLuvrOf course I always seem to be pointing my finger at the Moon and missing all the "heavenly glory."
The perfect is the enemy of the good -- nowhere is this more true than model railroading.
Good luck with your quest.
TrainzLuvrOntario, Canada.
Would it be worth a trip asross the line into USA to a local hobby shop here (Detroit, perhaps?, I know Ontario is a big place)? In Maine we get a lot of folks from Canada come for a weekend shopping, even tour busses from the Maritimes and Quebec coming to Bangor.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
G PaineWould it be worth a trip asross the line into USA to a local hobby shop here (Detroit, perhaps?, I know Ontario is a big place)? In Maine we get a lot of folks from Canada come for a weekend shopping, even tour busses from the Maritimes and Quebec coming to Bangor.
Buffalo, NY would be closer to me. Now, if only I could also rewind the time when our dollars were on par... :)
cuyamaIf the limited stock your local retailer carries limits you, what price convenience
More of an availability convenience, when you are itching to do something over the weekend because there's some free time.
I had not heard of Tillig track and eveything I've read on the Internet since is highly positive.
Recycling some 20 year old track (Atlas I think? code 83) with new W/S turnouts, I had to sand the ties down a little on the flex track as the old ties were a little higher. I didn't consider that to be a big deal or particularly hard.
Given that we paint it, throw dirt (ballast) on it and glue, how much better can it be after it's weathered. If I was a rivet counter I would lay my own rail. I am not so I will suggest convenience over a very uncommon brand and code at most well stocked train shops.
It is your railroad. Feel free to do whatever makes you happy.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
TrainzLuvrMy other choices are obviously W/S Code 83, but I read matching their turnouts to other flex track requires additional work (I'm not paying 2x the price for W/S flex :-) ).
I did select the Walthers-Shinohara code 83 turnouts partly (significantly) because of the selection offerred. I used a number of curved turnouts, a 3-way as well as number 5, 6 and 8 turnouts. When you express concern about connecting to other track requiring "work", are you concerned about mating to code 83 or 75?
In my case, I did avoid the W/S flex track because of cost, and went with Atlas code 83 flex. The issue there is the Atlas code 83 flex track has thicker ties, IIRC something to do with easy mating to their code 100(?). Anyway, the W/S to Atlas code 83 ties difference is 0.017", so all one needs to do (at most) is to "shim" under the turnout by that much to raise the code 83 rails of the turnout to match that of the flex track. That is done by either adding a piece of 0.015" styrene (cuts with scissors) or a piece of the turnout box cardboard (varnish it first so it is not absorbent) that happens to be close enough. So mating the two takes little effort.
Of course if you want to transition from main to code 70 yard and spur tracks, that takes some more effort. I didn't do that and just went with code 83 everywhere. Others can suggest how to transition code 83 to code 70 if you want to do that in places.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
TrainzLuvr G Paine Would it be worth a trip asross the line into USA to a local hobby shop here (Detroit, perhaps?, I know Ontario is a big place)? In Maine we get a lot of folks from Canada come for a weekend shopping, even tour busses from the Maritimes and Quebec coming to Bangor. Buffalo, NY would be closer to me. Now, if only I could also rewind the time when our dollars were on par... :)
G Paine
I have to admit one thing. I spent the last two years reading this, and many other forums, blogs and websites, and watching endless YouTube videos.
As I did not have a previous opinion about anything relating to today's model railroading, I was like a sponge ready to soak in anything. So my predispositions have most likely been, artifically, influenced by opinions of the people I read and heard on the internet. Hehe, I should put that into my signature.
@BigDaddy
A very sound advice - I am even contemplating going Code 100 all the way as that track is ubiquitous. I think I was becoming a rivet counter starting to concern myself way too much over what the rail spikes look like, or if the pattern on the rail tie's is random enough.
@peahrens
My concern was actually mating Code 83 between different manufacturers (W/S turnouts to ME or Atlas flex). Perhaps that issue of matching the track and having to file and shim has been over-exaggerated in my mind and I made a big deal out of it. As you did, I want to go with Atlas flex and W/S turnouts, as I like the springy nature of Atlas flex and variety of turnout geometry that W/S offers.
@doctorwayne
Thanks for the heads-up, it is relatively close, probably within an hour's drive on a good day.
To be honest, I have never had a single derailment on the switch. I have run Roco, Piko, and Fleischmann european models without an issue. I have also run Proto, Mainline, Atlas, Athearn RTR, and Kadee models without any issue either. The switch also has an electric frog which prevents any dip in power when locomotives pass over it. The reason RocoLine was replaced with GEO was due to copyright issues with the former owner of ROCO, whose bad decisions almost made the company go bankrupt. The situation was so bad that part of the agreement with the new owners was that the prior owner was not to even allowed to step foot on the property after the sale.