I have 2 that run slowly (28 scale mph @12 VDC) and stop abruptly when powered down, as if friction was negating the effects of the flywheels. They've spent the past 4-5 years resting comfortably in their boxes since being purchased new. I replaced the expected cracked axle gears, and lubed where I should, which improved the running characteristics only minimally.
Also the trucks seem not to be level. The inner axles barely touch the rails and easily derail. I can "yaw" the trucks by hand, but on the track the inner axles still ride high.
I'd appreciate any knowledge you all can supply before I toss 'em.
Ken
had the same problem with a set of F3 units that had been run a lot , the bearings were gummed up in the slides by dust, don't know if its the same but you night check the bearings.
Check to be sure each of the small, square bronze axle bearings are seated in the stamped metal bars that are behind the plastic side frames. Especially after a gear change it is easy to get these misaligned.
Also be sure each truck bolster is completely seated onto the pivot pin. Sometimes these work out of the hole and the plastic retainer clip, which also holds the worm gear in place, aren't seated properly.
These old Life-Like locomotives are practically indestructable and easily repairable.
Set the locomotives on a flat mirror and look for the errant wheelset. Check the truck pivot and gently lift each axle by the journal box. They should be able to be easily lifted a few millimeters off the surface without disturbing the other wheels.
Also check the drive shaft splines, they should allow for a little "telescope" action to allow the truck to pitch when needed.
Good Luck, Ed
I went through the same problems on here a few months ago. Everyone told me they needed lubricated. I also found that the gears were cracked so I replaced them. But they still ran the way you described. Or they would run and gradually slow down and then stop. When that happend, the overload light come on on the power pack (these are straight DC).
After taking them apart about twenty times, I noticed that they seemed to be binding in the little brass bearing blocks in the truck towers. I cleaned and lubricated them and they ran much better. But even then, it seemed like the motors didn't have much torque.
It also seemed like there was a lot of play in the bearing blocks on each axle. I tried, as was suggested, gently bending the metal strip to to help keep the bearing blocks in place. When I was done, it seemed like one of them ran better and one slightly better. I put them on my layout with other engines and let them run for a bit. It didn't take long for them to slow down again and trip the power pack.
During all of this, I had pretty much taken apart everything in the drive train I could. I even resoldered some of the wires since I was afraid the connection to the trucks could break. This all took place over a few weeks. When they started slowing down again, I finally gave up and shelved them. I didn't know what more to try. I'll stick with my better running Atlas RS-1s and 3s.
Also, taking them apart over and over got tiring and caused some damage to the handrails because of so much handling (and maybe because I was getting frustrated).
Maybe it's just me not being smart enough to figure it out, so I'd sure love to hear if anyone has any other suggestions for you.
Jim
BTW, mine were new in the box too.
I had similar problems with mine. I found the the worm gears had hard dried grease preventing free movement. Remove the worm gear bearing blocks and clean with a solvent, then relube and re install. Watch out for the small clear thrust washers on the shaft - don't loose them.
Also, the drive shaft u-joint cups on the worm gear shaft may be cracked just like the gears, allowing them to slip. Walthers does not have any more of these parts. I removed the u-joint cup, cut off the end of the drive shaft, and replaced that u-joint with a piece of rubber tubing - they run great now.
Remember, no matter when you bought them, they were likely made a decade or more ago.........
Sheldon
One more item to lube which is often neglected, even with well intentioned help on lubing/relubing the drive train/gears....is the armature shaft bearings/bushings, inner/outer... You can do all the relubing and cleaning You want....but if the motor bearings/bushings are dry and the motor does not turn freely all Your work on the other parts is for naught. They will dry out from just sitting around...especially in heavy weather swings, dry,humid, hot etc. Will cause the motor to run hot, draw excessive current and shut down. LaBelle makes an oil #107 plastic compatible for the job, has a needle type applicator for reaching into hard spots, inbetween flywheel and motor housing etc. If they are completely dry..they can be noisy and even squeal. Been playing/rebuilding them since 1950 and have yet to find one that could not be repaired, as long as the armature windings were not shorted out.
Good Luck,
Take Care!
Frank
You are probably right Frank, but I don't think I should have to disassemble a brand new out of the box engine just to get it to run, even if it has been sitting a while. I've never had this happen with any other brands.
ctyclsscs You are probably right Frank, but I don't think I should have to disassemble a brand new out of the box engine just to get it to run, even if it has been sitting a while. I've never had this happen with any other brands. Jim
Jim,
I agree......but We don't know how long those new parts had been sitting around and in what kind of conditions before they were assembled. I have bought some new items from same Mfg. that one would have no grease or oil at all, to the extreme of too much. Some Mfg'ers just have a poor QC or none at all..period.
Respectfully I will repeat, the last time Walthers did a run of Proto1000 RS2's, yes the Proto model is an RS2, not an RS3, was in 2006.
So you or I may have bought it last week, but it was manufactured over 10 years ago. So for 10 years that gear grease as been sitting around drying out, getting hard, in some warehouse.......
This is no excusse for cracked gears and other broken parts, but sitting in a warehouse or on a shelf in my house, you can expect grease to dry out in a loco that is not being used.
Mine were sitting around here for a decade, ran perfect when I bought them, not so much when I pulled them out a few months back.......
We went through a period where grease on plastic gears was thought to be the way to go. Not really so. These motors, all types, have limited torque capacity. Loading them with a hi viscosity lubricant will lead to disappointment.
The Proto motors are amoung the best that are available. But they can be dragged down by a number of things.
The lubricant is the first place to check. The grease should be removed and replaced with a low viscosity plastic friendly oil. As a previous post indicated, Labelle and Nano have good products. You only want a light amount, on each gear and bearing.
As you build the truck back, test to be sure there is no binding or resistance of any kind. As you go, be sure there are no burrs on any surface. I find that some gears bearing hole rubs on the rod surface. When that is the case binding is unavoidable. I ream the hole with a small screw driver just enough to free it up, again no burrs allowed. Too much reaming will lead to other problems, so go slow. Again after every assembly, test that everything runs smoothly, with no notable resistance. The tower worm gear is a common place for binds. The shafts will rust, generally they are steel. This oxidation starts with no visible rust, but the oxidation forms deposits effectively increasing the shaft diameter. This will eventually create a bind on the bronze bearings. These shafts need to be cleaned and polished before the lube.
Yes the motor bearings need to be lubricated as well. On can motors, typical P1K, only the outside can be reached. On open frame motors, typically P2K, the outside and the inside can be reached. I do not lube inside near the brushes. Oil on the brush contacts is bad, so avoid it at all costs. Again, after the drive is in place test to be sure there are no noticeable resistances.
Proto units all have some form of electronic module. These control the light direction and the voltage when the motor will start to rotate. I find these can be "bad" from the get go. I test the unit as received. Then pull the track power and motor leads from the board and connect them appropriately to get the module out of the circuit. These two tests will tell you if the module is the problem. The no module should run faster at all voltage settings. The difference at high voltage should be something you have to measure. At 12 volts the module should power the unit to near 70 smph. Even if this seem ok, when reconnecting the leads to the module, I solder them. That way vibration will not impact the motor to track connection through the module.
You indicated that you replaced the axle gears. That is mandatory. You also must be sure the wheelsets are in gauge. This can cause derailments. As indicated in an earlier post, the bearings must be seated in the truck slots. The bottom cover should hold them there if they are properly positioned when the covers are attached.
Regardless of the cost, these models are not Swiss watches. They have a lot of potential variation. Some of these can be minimized. Others, like motor magnetic flux really can not be. If everything else is good and the unit still runs slow with little pulling capability, then the motor magnets are likely to blame. They can be bad on "new" units. If that is the case, a new motor is the best answer. You can not be sure if that is the problem until you have done most of the above items.
Good luck with it,
So many trains, so little time,
Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com
So in this case RTR = Ready to Rebuild out of the box.
ctyclsscs So in this case RTR = Ready to Rebuild out of the box. Jim
Well, agreed, not fun to have to fix stuff that you just bought. But think of it this way, do you you think that if your car dealer left a new car sit on his lot for ten years, even stored indoors, that it would just fire up and run with no issues? Or, if you bought the car, but then parked it in a garage for 10 years and never drove or started it that it should/would be fine?
Agreed, model trains are not as complex as real autos, but machines are machines and inactivity is not ideal for any machine.
In the LifeLike days of the Proto line, and even in the early Walthers days, Proto locos were manufactured in very large batches compaired to Atlas or other brands available today, as noted by the large numbers of early Proto locos still available "new in the box" even after 20 years (I buy them all time, knowing I will need to clean out grease, replace gears, etc).
Did you pay top dollar? Or did you get it for half price on Ebay? I'll take them all day long for $40-$80 rather than the $200/$300 prices now typical of new releases.......but I realize for many this has become a "ready to run" hobby.........to each their own.
No, I bought mine new when they first came out, Sheldon. I may have gotten a little discount from the local dealer who is my friend.
I fully understand what you mean about them just "sitting" there for years, which they did. I just get frustrated because, depending on the brand and design of the engine, some engines can be a pain to take apart. Just trying to take off the shells or prying off some of the plastic gear covers can be difficult. With their fragile parts, the least thing I want to do is damage something before I can even run it.
The other thing is, I just want reliable engines that I can run on our display layout at shows. I don't want to invest a lot of time and effort into them since one quick move by someone could send it onto the floor. That's why in this case, ready-to-run is what I'm after.
Atlas RDCs run so much better than Proto's. Atlas hands down.
IMO, Proto is okay, it's not great though when compared to Atlas, Athearn, Bachmann, Intermountain, or MTH.
Walthers models would run so much better if the company redesigned the motors and power trucks.
ATSFGuy Atlas RDCs run so much better than Proto's. Atlas hands down. IMO, Proto is okay, it's not great though when compared to Atlas, Athearn, Bachmann, Intermountain, or MTH. Walthers models would run so much better if the company redesigned the motors and power trucks.
That's interesting considering Atlas has never made an HO model of a Budd RDC?
Agree with Sheldon, ATSFguy would you elaborate you comparison between Proto, Atlas, Athearn, Bachmann,..... I would expect release date is important here. The latest Proto is 10 plus years old. Having said that, if sound is not important to you, the Proto drives are excellent. As good or better than a lot of recent drives. Recent Walthers models have not faired well by comparison. My statements. are based on my testing that is documented on my site.
Strip the driveline down as far as you can and clean every piece of the factory grease or your wasting your time. This is a must. I've gone thru a ton of these lately and I think I've found at least every driveline piece stuck on one of them or another.
Gear tower helicals froze to the bearings, split gears, gears literally frozen in the trucks, etc. Everything has to be cleaned and lubed.
I'll doubt the motor is an issue, but not impossible.
Investogate what you have alrady done to verify all components, then pull the board and do a hard wired check on it with a DC powerpack. Just twist one side of the truck leads to the motor and do the same for the other side to the other motor lead.