D.HarrisonYour signals #14 and #4 aren't located properly. Your switch #6 and #11 aren't protected. Moving those two signals towards the middle would help. DH
Assuming you are refering to the Lion's drawing (a more specific reference would have been nice), I think you are taking the position of his signals on the drawing a little to litterally. I suspect they do actually protect the theturnouts in question.
Sheldon
MidlandPacific CSS systems are activated by changes in frequency in the current of the track circuit. Now, if you have a block signal displaying a "stop" indication, the previous signal would display "Approach" (proceed, prepared to stop short of the next signal, speed not exceeding 30mph, if exceeding 30mph, immediately slow to that speed). Obviously, if you can proceed @ 30mph, you don't want CSS to display a restricting; it would slow you needlessly. BUT a smart signal engineer could insert a "code change point" between signals, to trigger a "Restricting" on the CSS in advance of the "Stop". This would, as Jeff said, cause your signal to drop and give you a warning with sufficient time to stop the train. If the engineer failed to respond, he would get a "penalty application" of the brakes with sufficient time to stop the train short of the signal. Not as sophisticated as a 4 aspect system, but a sufficient enough protection against a stop signal violation that the ICC let the IC run the Panama Limited at 100mph.
CSS systems are activated by changes in frequency in the current of the track circuit. Now, if you have a block signal displaying a "stop" indication, the previous signal would display "Approach" (proceed, prepared to stop short of the next signal, speed not exceeding 30mph, if exceeding 30mph, immediately slow to that speed). Obviously, if you can proceed @ 30mph, you don't want CSS to display a restricting; it would slow you needlessly. BUT a smart signal engineer could insert a "code change point" between signals, to trigger a "Restricting" on the CSS in advance of the "Stop". This would, as Jeff said, cause your signal to drop and give you a warning with sufficient time to stop the train. If the engineer failed to respond, he would get a "penalty application" of the brakes with sufficient time to stop the train short of the signal. Not as sophisticated as a 4 aspect system, but a sufficient enough protection against a stop signal violation that the ICC let the IC run the Panama Limited at 100mph.
The Automatic Train Control with the two aspect cab signal that I work with originally only had waysides at interlockings and the distant signal for them. If the distant signal displayed approach because the interlocking was at stop, a train passing the signal would have it's cab signal drop to Restricting at that point. The ATC would cause a penalty brake application unless, depending you the speed you were travelling, you initiated a service brake application or were able to get your speed below 23 mph within 70 seconds. If the distant wayside signal displayed an Approach Diverging, the cab signal stayed clear and you had to know the speed of the diverging route, and get yourself down to that speed.
Out in the open spaces between interlockings, there would be no wayside signals. There were blocks for the track circuits. Instead of being governed by waysides, they are governed by the cab signal. You would learn where the block boundries were. So if you received a Restricting at point A, you would know that the end of the train ahead would be at or beyond point B. (Unless someone just opened a switch or a rail broke in the block you're in.) In conventional signalling, a wayside at point A would display an Approach. One reason receiving a Restricting like this is braking distance. Back in the day passenger trains might be running 80 or 90 mph (or more) and the system had to ensure that a train was either stopped or under control prepared to stop when it came upon a train stopped ahead. Until a few years ago, you could have some intermodal trains running at 70 mph and the only warning of something ahead was the cab signal changing to Restricting.
A few years ago, the UP finished installing CTC and wayside signals in ATC territory. The wayside basic signalling is 4 aspect: Green, Flashing Yellow, Yellow and Red. (Red can either be permissive or absolute, depending on the signal and there are a few other aspects available for crossover/diverging moves.) You are right that the cab signal picks up a frequency in a circuit, but it's not the one that the main signal system uses. It's imposed over the regular circuits. For a two aspect cab signal, it's easier. The track is either energized or dead. (It's possible, due to a malfunction, to have a clear/green wayside, but a "dead" block where the cab signal drops out.) Originally, they were going to have the cab drop out at Yellow (Approach) waysides. They wired up a couple signals like that that had existing signals from an earlier project. Those original blocks were long. Where new signalling was installed, the new blocks were shorter and it was found that passing an approach at full track speed (70mph) would not allow ATC to bring a train to a stop before the next signal. So now, passing a flashing yellow (Advance Approach) will cause the cab signal to go to Restricting, except when lined up for and through a 40mph crossover.
I tried to keep things a bit simplified. So things like distant signal and maybe a couple of other things aren't being used by a rule book definition.
Jeff
I am not familiar with the UP rule governing a Restricting signal, but under NORAC, the rule for a Restricting requires a crew to proceed, prepared to stop short of any obstruction, at a speed not exceeding Restricted speed (20mph outside interlocking limits, 15mph within interlocking limits).
I have heard various things about how a two aspect system like the IC system works, but it sounds like Jeff Hergert operates on one, so you should consider my answer to be amateur speculation until he weighs in. Operating guys truly do know best on these matters: they don't require 100% on signal exams for nothing.
BUT, here's my guess:
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
jeffhergert I heard a similar description of the old IC system from operating guys there - the guy I talked to called it the "all or nothing" system. The old Pennsy system gives you, I think, four indications- Clear, Approach, Approach Medium, and Restricting. The IC system was very similiar. Way back during the floods of 1993 when just about every railroad west of the Mississippi River was having issues, Amtrack detoured over the CNW across Iowa. They used some exIC Metra E units to lead because the IC cab signal equipment was compatible with the CNW's ATC. Jeff
I heard a similar description of the old IC system from operating guys there - the guy I talked to called it the "all or nothing" system. The old Pennsy system gives you, I think, four indications- Clear, Approach, Approach Medium, and Restricting.
The IC system was very similiar. Way back during the floods of 1993 when just about every railroad west of the Mississippi River was having issues, Amtrack detoured over the CNW across Iowa. They used some exIC Metra E units to lead because the IC cab signal equipment was compatible with the CNW's ATC.
I have two IC Rules and Regulations of the Transportation Department. One from the steam era, dated July 1, 1942 and the other from the transition era, dated July 1, 1958.
They both list just two in cab signals. Rule 281 Indication Proceed, Name Clear which was a green signal and Rule 290 Indication Proceed at Restricted Speed, Name Restricting which was a red signal. None of the other rules gave an in cab indication.
Jeff White
Alma, IL
MidlandPacific I heard a similar description of the old IC system from operating guys there - the guy I talked to called it the "all or nothing" system. The old Pennsy system gives you, I think, four indications- Clear, Approach, Approach Medium, and Restricting.
jeffhergert MidlandPacific That makes perfect sense- the most restrictive indication ABS can display is a stop and proceed, and rule 562 would only apply between the interlockings (which would retain home signals). Some railroads no longer have stop and proceed signals. A signal displaying red with a number plate is now a Restricted Proceed on some railroads. I work with two types of cab signals, the UP Coded Cab Signal with 4 aspects: Clear, Advance Approach, Approach and Restricting. I only run about 30 miles of that. The other is the exCNW's Automatic Train Control with a two aspect cab signal: Clear and Restricting. Until UP put in CTC and wayside signals, we only had waysides at control points and the advance signals to them. You would be going along at track speed, cross into the next signal circuit block and the cab signal would go to restricting. Meaning, depending on speed you either had 70 seconds to get below 22mph or 6 seconds to make a brake application. Otherwise you receive a penalty brake application that will require you to stop. The ATC dates from the 1920s. Jeff
MidlandPacific That makes perfect sense- the most restrictive indication ABS can display is a stop and proceed, and rule 562 would only apply between the interlockings (which would retain home signals).
That makes perfect sense- the most restrictive indication ABS can display is a stop and proceed, and rule 562 would only apply between the interlockings (which would retain home signals).
Some railroads no longer have stop and proceed signals. A signal displaying red with a number plate is now a Restricted Proceed on some railroads.
I work with two types of cab signals, the UP Coded Cab Signal with 4 aspects: Clear, Advance Approach, Approach and Restricting. I only run about 30 miles of that.
The other is the exCNW's Automatic Train Control with a two aspect cab signal: Clear and Restricting. Until UP put in CTC and wayside signals, we only had waysides at control points and the advance signals to them. You would be going along at track speed, cross into the next signal circuit block and the cab signal would go to restricting. Meaning, depending on speed you either had 70 seconds to get below 22mph or 6 seconds to make a brake application. Otherwise you receive a penalty brake application that will require you to stop. The ATC dates from the 1920s.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL 7j43k ATLANTIC CENTRAL ...a very effective signal system on a model railroad. Signals only at control points with the approach or advance signals. That is a very good and reasonable approach. I would add one thing. IF. IF. IF. There is a long enough distance between control points (perhaps unlikely, but possible), one might add one or more ABS signals. Of course, that starts looking like what I see as "standard old-time signaling". Ed And remember, many of us model times past, not present day railroading. At my house it is 1954 in the train room........ 1954, only minimal standardization of signaling from road to road, cab signals and ATC only on select passenger routes, CTC practices differ from line to line, ditch lights not invented, and mars lights snd daytime headlights just being introduced....... Sheldon
7j43k ATLANTIC CENTRAL ...a very effective signal system on a model railroad. Signals only at control points with the approach or advance signals. That is a very good and reasonable approach. I would add one thing. IF. IF. IF. There is a long enough distance between control points (perhaps unlikely, but possible), one might add one or more ABS signals. Of course, that starts looking like what I see as "standard old-time signaling". Ed
ATLANTIC CENTRAL ...a very effective signal system on a model railroad. Signals only at control points with the approach or advance signals.
...a very effective signal system on a model railroad. Signals only at control points with the approach or advance signals.
That is a very good and reasonable approach.
I would add one thing.
IF. IF. IF. There is a long enough distance between control points (perhaps unlikely, but possible), one might add one or more ABS signals.
Of course, that starts looking like what I see as "standard old-time signaling".
Ed
And remember, many of us model times past, not present day railroading. At my house it is 1954 in the train room........
1954, only minimal standardization of signaling from road to road, cab signals and ATC only on select passenger routes, CTC practices differ from line to line, ditch lights not invented, and mars lights snd daytime headlights just being introduced.......
I believe - not positive - that Rule 562 probably dates from the late 1990s, and the only spot I know of that has 562 territory today is the Northeast Corridor north of New Haven, which was significantly upgraded in the 1990s in preparation for the introduction of the Acelas- electrification and the ACSES system, for example.
That being said, most of the cab signal installations in the US are legacy systems that date from the steam era. Most were installed on heavily trafficked routes in the East or Midwest, but some were installed on transcons. ATSF, NYC, IC, Pennsy (still in use on the NEC), C&NW, RF&P, and NYNH&H all had them. The ICC experimented (i.e., ordered several carriers to experiment with) them starting in the 1920s, and ultimately made them mandatory for train operations in excess of 79mph after a series of rear end collisions in the mid-1940s (The 1946 Naperville collision on the Burlington is often cited as the cause). This was one of many factors that hindered the development of the post-WWII passenger train: most carriers were reluctant to invest in an expensive system-length installation of that kind for a passenger service need. By that point, they either had them because of general traffic density and speed issues (or ICC fiat), or they didn't, and I doubt many of them felt a need to add the system after that, unless the cost was borne by a commuter agency for passenger service.
BroadwayLion MidlandPacific but most Eastern carriers use some variatoon on the NORAC rules, while carriers west of Chicago tend to use GCOR. NORAC uses "speed signaling" (every indication comes with a maximum authorized speed), while GCOR uses "route signaling" Both LIRR and MNCR were members of the committee to establish NORAC, but both of them dropped out of the protocol. Each has their own rulebooks. Thus LIRR operates with its own rule book east of Harold Tower, and NORAC west of the tower (On AMTK teritory) Likewise AMTK uses NORAC but on the tracks of Metro North, they must follow MNRC rulebooks. MNCR (Metro North Commuter Railroad) Uses its own rules, and does not operate off of its own rails, except for West of Hudson Services, but that is operated for them by NJT. AFAIK, NJT uses NORAC on AMTK property, and probably also uses it on their own routes. ROAR
MidlandPacific but most Eastern carriers use some variatoon on the NORAC rules, while carriers west of Chicago tend to use GCOR. NORAC uses "speed signaling" (every indication comes with a maximum authorized speed), while GCOR uses "route signaling"
Both LIRR and MNCR were members of the committee to establish NORAC, but both of them dropped out of the protocol. Each has their own rulebooks.
Thus LIRR operates with its own rule book east of Harold Tower, and NORAC west of the tower (On AMTK teritory)
Likewise AMTK uses NORAC but on the tracks of Metro North, they must follow MNRC rulebooks.
MNCR (Metro North Commuter Railroad) Uses its own rules, and does not operate off of its own rails, except for West of Hudson Services, but that is operated for them by NJT.
AFAIK, NJT uses NORAC on AMTK property, and probably also uses it on their own routes.
ROAR
Yes, that's correct- the big Class Is have their own rulebooks, too, but in most respects, the signal rules are very similar throughout the Northeast. Still a lot of legacy NYC/PRR signaling there.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
And what you describe on the UP makes a very effective signal system on a model railroad. Signals only at control points with the approach or advance signals.
maxman ATLANTIC CENTRAL many of us model trains long before such technolog Seems that PRR and Union Switch and Signal started trying out cab signaling prior to 1930: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_code_cab_signaling
ATLANTIC CENTRAL many of us model trains long before such technolog
Seems that PRR and Union Switch and Signal started trying out cab signaling prior to 1930:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_code_cab_signaling
True enough, but mile for mile of trackage, very limited use until modern times.
And, OK, I should have said before such technology was common place or wide spread.
ATLANTIC CENTRALmany of us model trains long before such technolog
jeffhergert MidlandPacific steemtrayn MidlandPacific .... and have "562 territory" (no fixed lineside signals, all movement is governed by "cab signal" systems in the locomotives). If you have an approach (prepared to stop at next signal) in 562 territory, and there is no fixed signal, how do you know where to stop? I don't know for sure, but I suspect you'd get a series of CSS drops, first to approach, then to restricting, and then to stop - the latter coming in advance of the actual end of the block through the use of code change points. Even though there may not be wayside signals, there still are signal circuit blocks. If nothing else, there probably will be a relay cabinet or house at the boundry. After working a territory for a while, day in and day out, you begin to know where they are. When you enter a new block and the cab signal goes from Clear to Advance Approach (or the equivalent depending on rules in use), you have an idea where the train ahead (or whatever is causing the detected occupancy) is at. Cab signals don't have an aspect for stop. The most restrictive indication is Restricting. When operating on a Restricting cab signal you operate under the provisions of Restricted Speed. That is, in it's simplest form, to stop short of anything that's causing the CS to display the Restricting. (The actual rule is more detailed.) Could be a manager testing, broken rail, switch open, a train ahead, or other things. You just keep going until you can't go any further. Jeff
MidlandPacific steemtrayn MidlandPacific .... and have "562 territory" (no fixed lineside signals, all movement is governed by "cab signal" systems in the locomotives). If you have an approach (prepared to stop at next signal) in 562 territory, and there is no fixed signal, how do you know where to stop? I don't know for sure, but I suspect you'd get a series of CSS drops, first to approach, then to restricting, and then to stop - the latter coming in advance of the actual end of the block through the use of code change points.
steemtrayn MidlandPacific .... and have "562 territory" (no fixed lineside signals, all movement is governed by "cab signal" systems in the locomotives). If you have an approach (prepared to stop at next signal) in 562 territory, and there is no fixed signal, how do you know where to stop?
MidlandPacific .... and have "562 territory" (no fixed lineside signals, all movement is governed by "cab signal" systems in the locomotives).
.... and have "562 territory" (no fixed lineside signals, all movement is governed by "cab signal" systems in the locomotives).
If you have an approach (prepared to stop at next signal) in 562 territory, and there is no fixed signal, how do you know where to stop?
I don't know for sure, but I suspect you'd get a series of CSS drops, first to approach, then to restricting, and then to stop - the latter coming in advance of the actual end of the block through the use of code change points.
Even though there may not be wayside signals, there still are signal circuit blocks. If nothing else, there probably will be a relay cabinet or house at the boundry. After working a territory for a while, day in and day out, you begin to know where they are. When you enter a new block and the cab signal goes from Clear to Advance Approach (or the equivalent depending on rules in use), you have an idea where the train ahead (or whatever is causing the detected occupancy) is at.
Cab signals don't have an aspect for stop. The most restrictive indication is Restricting. When operating on a Restricting cab signal you operate under the provisions of Restricted Speed. That is, in it's simplest form, to stop short of anything that's causing the CS to display the Restricting. (The actual rule is more detailed.) Could be a manager testing, broken rail, switch open, a train ahead, or other things. You just keep going until you can't go any further.
All of this assumes we are talking about trains new enough to have cab signals......many of us model trains long before such technology.
And again, it is surely interesting to know how the prototype works, but on even the largest model layouts we really don't have suitable distances for permisive signaling to really work effectively.
MidlandPacific Of possible interest if you want to dive into the world of interlocking- Modratec in Australia makes custom-made interlocking control systems, basically a small version of the classic "Armstrong" interlocking with mechanical logic- worth checking out, but not cheap!
Of possible interest if you want to dive into the world of interlocking- Modratec in Australia makes custom-made interlocking control systems, basically a small version of the classic "Armstrong" interlocking with mechanical logic- worth checking out, but not cheap!
Full working interlocking plant signals are easily done with a simple $3 relay for each turnout or crossover and basic detectors - way less expensive than any of the solid state/computer/plug and play options......gee, the prototype used relays for 100 years.......still using them in many places.......
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
For the basic, default modern prototype practice, John Armstrong's "The Railroad: What It Is, What It Does," is essential. To put it at its simplest, signals come in two types: those that are set by an operator (usually, but NOT entirely, interlocking signals), and those that are operated automatically (intermediate signals, also known as ABS, and also things like grade crossing flashers). Just to confuse things further, there are even semi-automatic interlockings.
An interlocking plant is a controlled complex that includes, at a minimum, a set of signals governing entry into interlocking limits; it may also include switches, crossovers, derails, etc. The key distinguishing features are 1) an operator or dispatcher physically controls the setting of switches and signals, 2) which are interlocked so that a conflicting (i.e., unsafe) route cannot be lined through the interlocking. If you see a signal out on the railroad without a number plate, it is usually an interlocking signal. For more info on interlockings, you should check out "A Model Railroader's Guide to Junctions," by Kalmbach.
Automatic/intermediate signals are those that simply detect the presence of a train in a given block, and display a signal to protect it (they will also trip for open switches, which can be importan). Usually this is done through an electric track circuit; the presence of a train shorts the circuit and causes the signal to drop automatically to stop. When the train leaves the block, the current returns. Modern signals are "approach circuited," which means that the presence of a train in the adjacent block causes them to display a yellow "approach" signal. When the train leaves that block, the signal drops automatically to "clear." ABS (automatic block signals) are usually distinguishable by a plate on the mast. In double track territory, each line may be signaled for movement in one direction (in NORAC rules, "251 territory," from the governing rule), or for movement in either direction ("261 territory," ditto). Most 251 territory in the US is signaled for right hand running, except former C&NW lines - for some reason, they liked left hand running.
For both types of signals, the authorization conveyed by the signal is set by the applicable rule Book. This varies from railroad to railroad, but most Eastern carriers use some variatoon on the NORAC rules, while carriers west of Chicago tend to use GCOR. NORAC uses "speed signaling" (every indication comes with a maximum authorized speed), while GCOR uses "route signaling" (indications tell you where you are going, and crews are expected to observe the speeds in the employee timetable, modified by General and Bulletin Orders, as well as temporary speed restrictions issued by the dispatcher.
In signaling, decsisions tend to be situational; the farther back you go, the fewer hard-and-fast rules there are. Some railroads made every crossover in double-track territory into an interlocking (Pennsy) while others simply imposed rules governing operation through crossovers in ABS territory, relying on the nature of the signals and rules observance to ensure safe operation (NYC). Assuming you're freelancing, there are no barriers whatsoever to mixing and matching signal types- the BNSF line across Raton Pass, for example, still has plenty of semaphores, cheek-by-jowl with newer signals. CSX only just took down the old B&O color position lights on the Metropolitan sub, but they're still in service at Washington Union Station. One thing you must do- if you have an interlocking, all movement into the interlocking is governed by "home signals," which have no plates- unless, that is, you're really advanced, and have "562 territory" (no fixed lineside signals, all movement is governed by "cab signal" systems in the locomotives).
ricktrains4824RMC ran a series of articles by Bruce Chubb recently on signaling....
The series started in January, with a multi-page installment every month (ten so far, obviously) with more to come. It explains the various prototypes and how to model them, too. If you're interested in signalling, well worth a subscription and/or ordering back issues.
Wayne
LIONS LOVE SIGNALS, and him having 14 miles of track has need of many block signals, especially since blocks on subway systems are measured in feet instead of miles.
OK you wanted interlocking signals. The easiest way to do this is to just use them as indicators for the position of your switches. If you have a complex interlocking plant, the signals would typically be at the enterence to the plant and NOT for each switch, although you could put a dwarf at each turnout just to incicate to you what is happening.
Here are instructions from the LION:...
Typicaly in a plant like this the down position of the levers is the NORMAL position for that device (turnout or signal). Normal positon for signals is RED.
Not show nere are the signals for the departing tracks from this station. The departures from those tracks would be controlled by lever 14 with a reepeat signal controlled by turnouts 6, 8, 9 and 10.
On the row of levers, the signals are painted red, turnouts black.
For a train arriving from the left ALL of the signals are on the left of the row of levers. For a train arriving from the right, the signal levers would be on the right end of the row.
A train moving from right to left on this diagram would need levers 1 and 3 reversed to display green lights.
A train entering from the left and terminating on track 4 would need levers 9, 6 and 5 reversed before levar 1 could be moved to clear the signal. This might display an amber signal on mast 1 since it is clear and diverting, but that is not shown here for simplicity.
On interlocking plants there are mechinical (now electrical) devices that force the correct sequence of lever movements before a signal can be cleared.
In my second example, signals 15 and 16 would be locked against movements into the station until after the arrival of the train and the restoration of the levers to their normal position. Once the cignal is reversed (cleared) all of the switch levers are also locked until the train is in the station.
OK, OK, OK.... you did not want to get that complicated, but that is what an interlocking plant would look like. Here is what you really wanted to do.: [CLICK on diagrams to Enlarge.]
And putting it all together we get:
Block Signals are a separate system, and are fully automatic responding to track occupancy.
REally great to see you back in here Fergie. I was wondering if they were keeping you at sea these days.
Signaling is a really intense study. It goes by each railroad as they have their own ideas and so varies from area to area and road to road.
I do not speak from experience on this as I have not gotten around to that on the LM&E. But I agree with what has been said that on model RRs, unless it is an extrememley large one, it is something like selective compression. There is really a small amount of it which will go a long way. Be very selective in your choice and consider the overall effect and what will look the best and that will do.
This is the opinion of an Ol' Phart and not liking unessissary work and expense.
Best Wishes to you Ol' Salt.
Johnboy out.......................................
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
Fergmiester I was planning on using both. Yes I'm a sucker for punishment!
I was planning on using both. Yes I'm a sucker for punishment!
Prototype signaling is very complex.....that said, it can be simplified for model use and still look very realistic.
Signals at turnouts do not just indicate tunout position, they also respond to train detection like a block signal. They are called "interlocking signals", so they are both a block signal and a route signal in one.
Seldom is the mainline run of a model railroad long enough to justify or require true block signals. Very effective model signals can be created using just signals at the interlockings (turnouts), since these locations are generally block boundries also.
Might be better to read some of the older info, look up Bruce Chubb and Ed Ravenscroft articles from the 70's in MR to better understand how to adapt signaling to a model layout, then use whatever products or technology you like to build the system.
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=5959
If one could roll back the hands of time... They would be waiting for the next train into the future. A. H. Francey 1921-2007