I have a new Walther's Proto Gp 30 dcc sound that I'm having a problem with. When I first bought it from an Atlanta area shop (new) there was no power to the rear truck. I sent it to Walther's (I'm 125 miles from the store) for exchange, at my expense. I received it back yesterday.... tried it out and this one has power to both trucks but it is stalling on 95% of the frogs of my Peco code 100 insulfrog turnouts. Out of 25 plus locomotives in my fleet it is the only one to do this. I've checked the wheel guage with an NMRA guage and they are correct. I've measured the width of the wheel thread and I find that, from the wheel flange but not including it, they are 5/64th inch wide, just as another locomotive that I measured that does not have this problem.
What am I missing? What can I check?
Thanks in advance.
Jarrell
jacon12 I received it back yesterday.... tried it out and this one has power to both trucks
I am a little confused about the way you are saying that there is power TO the trucks.
To me, power to the trucks is implying that the wheels are not turning so the original problem was a drive shaft or worm gear dislodged so that only two out of four axles were turning.
Is this correct?
The stalling may imply that there is no power pickup from one truck. That would be a different condition all together.
You can test this by running the locomotive at a moderately slow speed while carefully lifting one truck, then the other, slightly off the rails.
If the wheels stop turning when you lift one end off then the remaining truck is not collecting power and there might be a broken wire or a problem with the bronze contact strip.
It is entirely possible that when Walthers repaired the drive-shaft/worm gear to the truck the repair person dislodged one of the connecting wires from the truck or the printed circuit board.
A little more information might be helpful.
Regards, Ed
Ed, I'm confused about your comment on Walthers repairing the drive-shaft/worm gear. I don't see where the OP mentioned anything about that. Also, he bought the loco new and then exchanged it at Walthers for another new one.
I do agree that it sounds like one of the power pickup wires is broken or missing, but even that seems coincidental on two consecutive new loco purchases. The OP should follow your advice and check both the front and rear trucks for power.
Rich
Alton Junction
jacon12 I have a new Walther's Proto Gp 30 dcc sound that I'm having a problem with. When I first bought it from an Atlanta area shop (new) there was no power to the rear truck. I sent it to Walther's (I'm 125 miles from the store) for exchange, at my expense. I received it back yesterday.... tried it out and this one has power to both trucks but it is stalling on 95% of the frogs of my Peco code 100 insulfrog turnouts. Out of 25 plus locomotives in my fleet it is the only one to do this.
I have a new Walther's Proto Gp 30 dcc sound that I'm having a problem with. When I first bought it from an Atlanta area shop (new) there was no power to the rear truck. I sent it to Walther's (I'm 125 miles from the store) for exchange, at my expense. I received it back yesterday.... tried it out and this one has power to both trucks but it is stalling on 95% of the frogs of my Peco code 100 insulfrog turnouts. Out of 25 plus locomotives in my fleet it is the only one to do this.
I am not familiar with the Code 100 Peco Insulfrog, but I do know that the frog on the Code 83 Peco Insulfrog is plastic. Assuming that the frog on the Code 100 Peco Insulfrog is also plastic, there is no way to power it, so it is crucial that both the front and rear trucks are receiving power. So, if this is the only loco out of 25 to stall on the frog, it sure sounds as if either the front or rear truck is not receiving power from the rails.
Does the loco only stall at slow speeds? I ask that because even with power to only the front or rear trucks, at higher speeds the loco can coast over an unpowered frog.
Hi, Rich,
The OP says he had no power TO one truck.
My way of thinking is that a powered truck has mechanically driven wheels that drive the locomotive/train through gearing or other transmission method.
IF—in fact—he is not getting power FROM the truck that would mean, in my way of thinking, electrical power or current is not being collected from the rail and delivered TO the decoder.
Often, the retaining clip that holds the worm gear comes dislodged in shipping. This may explain why the OP only had "mechanical" power on one truck. Rather than open the shell and explore the cause, it would seem he returned it to Walthers for repair.
That's where I came to the conclusion that perhaps, by correcting one problem (one set of wheels not turning) another problem was created (wires being dislodged from the PC board or truck pickups) in the course of the repair. If it was an exchange then the OP just went from having a mechanical problem on unit A and inheriting an electrical problem on unit B.
For me, it is often better to repair the problem myself than risk shipping the locomotive and risking another problem caused by poor packaging/rough handling.
So, I merely requested that the OP make a better explanation of the problem.
ahh, thanks, Ed. I see what you are driving at. I still wonder, though, if Walthers repaired it or replaced it. It sounds like Walthers replaced it with a new loco.
gmpullman jacon12 I received it back yesterday.... tried it out and this one has power to both trucks I am a little confused about the way you are saying that there is power TO the trucks. To me, power to the trucks is implying that the wheels are not turning so the original problem was a drive shaft or worm gear dislodged so that only two out of four axles were turning. Is this correct? The stalling may imply that there is no power pickup from one truck. That would be a different condition all together. You can test this by running the locomotive at a moderately slow speed while carefully lifting one truck, then the other, slightly off the rails. If the wheels stop turning when you lift one end off then the remaining truck is not collecting power and there might be a broken wire or a problem with the bronze contact strip. It is entirely possible that when Walthers repaired the drive-shaft/worm gear to the truck the repair person dislodged one of the connecting wires from the truck or the printed circuit board. A little more information might be helpful. Regards, Ed
The first unit I bought did not have power to the rear truck. Set the loco on the track, turn on the power, lift the rear of the loco up... everything is fine. Set the loco down on the tracks, lift up the front so that the wheels are not touching..., no power, no sound, no lights no nothing. So, there was no power to the rear trucks, only to the front. That's the first thing I checked. Nothing was done by Walthers, to my knowledge to the drive shaft worm gear. That's not where the problem was on the original unit, it was in lack of electrical power to the rear truck. It's a moot point anyway since supposedly Walther's exchanged it for a new unit.
richhotrain jacon12 I have a new Walther's Proto Gp 30 dcc sound that I'm having a problem with. When I first bought it from an Atlanta area shop (new) there was no power to the rear truck. I sent it to Walther's (I'm 125 miles from the store) for exchange, at my expense. I received it back yesterday.... tried it out and this one has power to both trucks but it is stalling on 95% of the frogs of my Peco code 100 insulfrog turnouts. Out of 25 plus locomotives in my fleet it is the only one to do this. Are you sure that there is power to both the front and rear trucks on both the left side and the right side? I am not familiar with the Code 100 Peco Insulfrog, but I do know that the frog on the Code 83 Peco Insulfrog is plastic. Assuming that the frog on the Code 100 Peco Insulfrog is also plastic, there is no way to power it, so it is crucial that both the front and rear trucks are receiving power. So, if this is the only loco out of 25 to stall on the frog, it sure sounds as if either the front or rear truck is not receiving power from the rails. Does the loco only stall at slow speeds? I ask that because even with power to only the front or rear trucks, at higher speeds the loco can coast over an unpowered frog. Rich
Are you sure that there is power to both the front and rear trucks on both the left side and the right side?
Rich, you are correct in that the code 100 and code 83 insulfrog are constructed the same. Yes the loco will continue on across the frog at high enough speed but not at slow speed. And yes, it does seem to be a 'loss of power' thing as you mentioned. I'm powering the layout at this time with a Digitrax Zephyr and I've watched the display on the Z for signs of a short (dancing display letters/numbers) when the loco 'stalls' on the frog but it's not showing a short. I was not aware that you could have power to one side of a truck and not the other. I don't know how to test for that. Testing to see if the entire truck is powered is simple as lifting the loco up on one end and then the other.
gmpullman Hi, Rich, The OP says he had no power TO one truck. My way of thinking is that a powered truck has mechanically driven wheels that drive the locomotive/train through gearing or other transmission method. IF—in fact—he is not getting power FROM the truck that would mean, in my way of thinking, electrical power or current is not being collected from the rail and delivered TO the decoder. Often, the retaining clip that holds the worm gear comes dislodged in shipping. This may explain why the OP only had "mechanical" power on one truck. Rather than open the shell and explore the cause, it would seem he returned it to Walthers for repair. That's where I came to the conclusion that perhaps, by correcting one problem (one set of wheels not turning) another problem was created (wires being dislodged from the PC board or truck pickups) in the course of the repair. If it was an exchange then the OP just went from having a mechanical problem on unit A and inheriting an electrical problem on unit B. For me, it is often better to repair the problem myself than risk shipping the locomotive and risking another problem caused by poor packaging/rough handling. So, I merely requested that the OP make a better explanation of the problem. Regards, Ed
Ed, I guess I was in error when I said the original unit did not have power TO the rear truck. I'm no expert on any of this so bear with me. It would be correct to say no power was coming from the rear truck if, with the loco sitting on the powered up track, you lifted the rear of the loco high enough for the rear wheels to clear the track and sound/lights etc. still functioned. But when you did the same thing with the front of the loco, leaving the rear wheels only touching the track and you lost sound, lights etc. then no power is being recieved from the rear truck/wheels.
But Rich brought up a point I hadn't considered since I know so little about the inner workings of them. My Zephyr is not showing that there is a short occuring (dancing display letters/numbers) which leads me to believe the loco is not shorting out on the frog by the wheel(s) reaching across and touching a rail it's not supposed to as I originally thought. Rather it seems to be a loss of contact. But if that's the case the loco would still have power coming from the other truck and therefore would not stall/stop on the frog. That's why you have all trucks powered. Am I thinking right on this?
richhotrain ahh, thank, Ed. I see what you are driving at. I still wonder, though, if Walthers repaired it or replaced it. It sounds like Walthers replaced it with a new loco. Rich
ahh, thank, Ed. I see what you are driving at. I still wonder, though, if Walthers repaired it or replaced it. It sounds like Walthers replaced it with a new loco.
Rich, Walther's said they were going to replace it with a new one, but now I wonder. When I opened this 'replacement' up I noticed there was a good bit of oil on the bottom cover of the rear truck, you know... the little cover we have to pry off in order to get to the axle/gears. The oil was on the outside of that cover. Probably has absolutely nothing to do with anything I just found it odd there was that much oil on the outside, I'd not seen that before.
Hi Jarrell:
I'd send it back again.
I have edited my original post because I hadn't read your first post carefully enough, so if you have read my first version, ignore it.
If you don't want to send it back again, then you need to test all of the connections from the wheels to the decoder pads. You will need a multi meter if you don't have one already:
http://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-digital-multimeter-90899.html
Some contact points may need to be cleaned and re-lubricated, others would benefit from being soldered. You also need to make sure that none of the wires running from the truck to the decoder are faulty.
If you need help doing any of those things, ask here.
Best of luck,
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
jacon12 Rich, Walther's said they were going to replace it with a new one, but now I wonder. When I opened this 'replacement' up I noticed there was a good bit of oil on the bottom cover of the rear truck, you know... the little cover we have to pry off in order to get to the axle/gears. The oil was on the outside of that cover. Probably has absolutely nothing to do with anything I just found it odd there was that much oil on the outside, I'd not seen that before. Jarrell
Besides lifting either the front trucks off the track or thr rear trucks off the track, there is another way to test for power.
Run the locomotive at slow speed over the frog of one of the turnouts. The locomotive should stop on the frog since the frog is unpowered and one or both of the rear trucks are not picking up power from the rails.
Then, run the locomotive in reverse over the frog at slow speed. The rear trucks should clear the frog since the trailing front trucks are picking up power from the rails. But, when the front trucks reach the frog, the locomotive should stop since the rear trucks are not picking up power from the rails.
If that test confirms that one or both of the rear trucks are not picking up power from the rails, then your only remaining option, short of returning the locomotive to Walthers once again, is to remove the shell and examine the power wire connections at the decoder, one wire from each of the four trucks.
jacon12 Rather it seems to be a loss of contact. But if that's the case the loco would still have power coming from the other truck and therefore would not stall/stop on the frog. That's why you have all trucks powered. Am I thinking right on this? Jarrell
Rather it seems to be a loss of contact. But if that's the case the loco would still have power coming from the other truck and therefore would not stall/stop on the frog. That's why you have all trucks powered. Am I thinking right on this?
richhotrain jacon12 Rather it seems to be a loss of contact. But if that's the case the loco would still have power coming from the other truck and therefore would not stall/stop on the frog. That's why you have all trucks powered. Am I thinking right on this? Jarrell The front and rear trucks are picking up power to complete a circuit, positive (+) from the right rail and negative (-) from the left rail. So, if one of the pickup wires is loose or broken, the circuit on that pair of trucks, front or rear depending upon the location of the loose or broken wire, will not be completed. Rich
The front and rear trucks are picking up power to complete a circuit, positive (+) from the right rail and negative (-) from the left rail. So, if one of the pickup wires is loose or broken, the circuit on that pair of trucks, front or rear depending upon the location of the loose or broken wire, will not be completed.
Thank you Rich, I understand it better now.
Jarrel
richhotrain Besides lifting either the front trucks off the track or thr rear trucks off the track, there is another way to test for power. Run the locomotive at slow speed over the frog of one of the turnouts. The locomotive should stop on the frog since the frog is unpowered and one or both of the rear trucks are not picking up power from the rails. Then, run the locomotive in reverse over the frog at slow speed. The rear trucks should clear the frog since the trailing front trucks are picking up power from the rails. But, when the front trucks reach the frog, the locomotive should stop since the rear trucks are not picking up power from the rails. If that test confirms that one or both of the rear trucks are not picking up power from the rails, then your only remaining option, short of returning the locomotive to Walthers once again, is to remove the shell and examine the power wire connections at the decoder, one wire from each of the four trucks. Rich
Ahhh... ok. So the way it works is the wheels on one side of the loco can be picking up power but not on the other side and that's on the same end of the loco... front or rear.
jacon12Since this loco was stalling on almost all turnouts I initially thought the loco was shorting out on the frogs. We've all seen that problem where the loco's wheel 'reaches' across and touches the opposing rail and a short is created. What convinced me more that this was happening was when I used a small dab of clear finger nail polish and coated the rails right at the frog to insulate them and the problem went away. The loco would proceed at any speed across the frog without stalling. I'm going to do more tests with it today. I did note yesterday that the loco 'seemed' to do this only going forward. When I put it in reverse and went over the same turnout nothing happened. I really appreciate ya'll's help and educating me some on how the circuitry of locos work. Jarrell
richhotrain jacon12 Rich, Walther's said they were going to replace it with a new one, but now I wonder. When I opened this 'replacement' up I noticed there was a good bit of oil on the bottom cover of the rear truck, you know... the little cover we have to pry off in order to get to the axle/gears. The oil was on the outside of that cover. Probably has absolutely nothing to do with anything I just found it odd there was that much oil on the outside, I'd not seen that before. Jarrell Jarrell, have you performed the same test on this "replacement" locomotive that you did on the original locomotive? In other words, if you lift the front wheels off the track, do you lose the lights and sound? Now, I think that we are both wondering if Walthers did, indeed, replace the locomotive or simply try to make a "repair". Rich
Jarrell, have you performed the same test on this "replacement" locomotive that you did on the original locomotive? In other words, if you lift the front wheels off the track, do you lose the lights and sound? Now, I think that we are both wondering if Walthers did, indeed, replace the locomotive or simply try to make a "repair".
Yes, that was the first thing I did with the replacement. lifted the front and then the rear and everything worked as advertised.
richhotrain jacon12 Since this loco was stalling on almost all turnouts I initially thought the loco was shorting out on the frogs. We've all seen that problem where the loco's wheel 'reaches' across and touches the opposing rail and a short is created. What convinced me more that this was happening was when I used a small dab of clear finger nail polish and coated the rails right at the frog to insulate them and the problem went away. The loco would proceed at any speed across the frog without stalling. I'm going to do more tests with it today. I did note yesterday that the loco 'seemed' to do this only going forward. When I put it in reverse and went over the same turnout nothing happened. I really appreciate ya'll's help and educating me some on how the circuitry of locos work. Jarrell That nail polish trick is used to prevent "shorts". not stalls, when the rails of opposite polarity converge and a wheel contacts both rails simultaneously. So, when you are testing today, try to distinguish between a short and a stall. The problem may be a wheelset if, indeed, a short is occurring at the frog. Rich
jacon12 Since this loco was stalling on almost all turnouts I initially thought the loco was shorting out on the frogs. We've all seen that problem where the loco's wheel 'reaches' across and touches the opposing rail and a short is created. What convinced me more that this was happening was when I used a small dab of clear finger nail polish and coated the rails right at the frog to insulate them and the problem went away. The loco would proceed at any speed across the frog without stalling. I'm going to do more tests with it today. I did note yesterday that the loco 'seemed' to do this only going forward. When I put it in reverse and went over the same turnout nothing happened. I really appreciate ya'll's help and educating me some on how the circuitry of locos work. Jarrell
That nail polish trick is used to prevent "shorts". not stalls, when the rails of opposite polarity converge and a wheel contacts both rails simultaneously. So, when you are testing today, try to distinguish between a short and a stall. The problem may be a wheelset if, indeed, a short is occurring at the frog.
Rich, that's what I'm going to do today. I've got to determine if it's stalling or if it's shorting. I have another sound equipped loco that is pretty loud and I'm going to set it on the track near where I do the test. If I run the loco in question over the frog and the 2nd loco goes silent when the bad actor goes over the frog and stops I'll know I have a short. That's the easiest way I know to test it.
hon30critter Hi Jarrell: I'd send it back again. I have edited my original post because I hadn't read your first post carefully enough, so if you have read my first version, ignore it. If you don't want to send it back again, then you need to test all of the connections from the wheels to the decoder pads. You will need a multi meter if you don't have one already: http://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-digital-multimeter-90899.html Some contact points may need to be cleaned and re-lubricated, others would benefit from being soldered. You also need to make sure that none of the wires running from the truck to the decoder are faulty. If you need help doing any of those things, ask here. Best of luck, Dave
Dave, sending it back is probably where this will end up since I don't have the skills to fix it myself. Meanwhile I'm going to try and determine if it's a problem with a wheel set shorting out on the frogs or if it's something else.
Thank you for your help!
I've worked with the locomotive and track (turnouts) for a couple of hours this morning. I can't get the problem (stalling on frogs) to be consistent. I cleaned the frogs and the area around them thoroughly paying attention to any thing that might have gotten down between frog and guard rail (I think that's what they're called), where the wheels flanges go. I got the frogs as clean and bump free as possible, the unit then went through just fine but the second time going through in the same direction, it stalls again. If I then press gently down on the loco (while it is stalled) with my finger I can hear a faint clicking sound and the loco tries to come back to life. But I can't get any of this to be consistent.
Jarrell, what happened on your test with the other sound loco sitting on the layout? Did the sound cut out when the other loco paused?
This is beginning to sound like an intermittent short, perhaps caused by a wheel on the loco touching two convergent rails simultaneously.
Here is a photo of a Peco Code 100 turnout with the convergent rails at the turnout circled in red. Can you pinpoint the exact spot where the short or stall is taking place?
richhotrain Jarrell, what happened on your test with the other sound loco sitting on the layout? Did the sound cut out when the other loco paused? This is beginning to sound like an intermittent short, perhaps caused by a wheel on the loco touching two convergent rails simultaneously. Here is a photo of a Peco Code 100 turnout with the convergent rails at the turnout circled in red. Can you pinpoint the exact spot where the short or stall is taking place? Rich
I'll try tomorrow to pinpoint exactly where this is occuring. I did do the test with another loco, with sound, sitting a couple of feet away and the sound/lights etc. did not quit, and that is when mr. trouble loco is completly stalled on the turnout and it's sound and lights have gone out. I can't get it to do it all the time.... it is so intermittent. I thought I had solved the problem when I carefully cleaned the frogs on top, down the sides etc...... the loco did fine but when I ran it through again just a few minutes later it stalled again. I really think it's an internal electrical connection problem in the loco. I don't know what else it could be. The problem is it's so haphazard, one minute it's ok the next minute it's not. I think it's going back to the dealer, Rich.
jacon12 I'll try tomorrow to pinpoint exactly where this is occuring. I did do the test with another loco, with sound, sitting a couple of feet away and the sound/lights etc. did not quit, and that is when mr. trouble loco is completly stalled on the turnout and it's sound and lights have gone out. I can't get it to do it all the time.... it is so intermittent. I thought I had solved the problem when I carefully cleaned the frogs on top, down the sides etc...... the loco did fine but when I ran it through again just a few minutes later it stalled again. I really think it's an internal electrical connection problem in the loco. I don't know what else it could be. The problem is it's so haphazard, one minute it's ok the next minute it's not.
I'll try tomorrow to pinpoint exactly where this is occuring. I did do the test with another loco, with sound, sitting a couple of feet away and the sound/lights etc. did not quit, and that is when mr. trouble loco is completly stalled on the turnout and it's sound and lights have gone out. I can't get it to do it all the time.... it is so intermittent. I thought I had solved the problem when I carefully cleaned the frogs on top, down the sides etc...... the loco did fine but when I ran it through again just a few minutes later it stalled again.
I really think it's an internal electrical connection problem in the loco. I don't know what else it could be. The problem is it's so haphazard, one minute it's ok the next minute it's not.
I haven't seen this in any of the replies, but have you checked the wheelsets gauge using an NMRA gauge? If they are gauged wrong, it could cause a short running over, or through, a frog.
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
Rich, my layout mainline is about 90 feet long and has approx. 15 to 16 turnouts on it. The stall can occur on straight thru turnouts or on some of the turnouts that are on spur lines. This is getting a bit complicated because we're talking about, supposedly... two different locomotives of the same species... :) The first one I bought and had this problem with and the 2nd one that I received from Walther's as an exchange. I say supposedly because I'm a bit suspicious that it wasn't exhanged at all but was merely 'repaired' and sent back.
Since getting it back I've tried the fingernail polish trick but I've since cleaned all that off and did a diligent cleaning job on all the mainline turnout frogs.
Now for the problem. The stall problem is so intermittent that it is had to know what is happening. I've checked the guage of the wheels with an NMRA guage, they're perfect. I can sometimes get the loco to go though ALL mainline turnouts without a hitch. The next time around it may stall on a couple of them... the next time on three in a row. When it stalls I lose sound and lights of course. If I gently press down on the loco it will come back alive and move on. I've looked at all the turnouts from directly above them where I can and I just can't see how I'm getting a short from the wheel touching the opposing rail. I've even carefully measured the thread of the wheels to see if they're wider than 'normal' and they're not.
I'm leaning heavily toward this is an internal wiring/electrical contact problem somewhere in the locomotive. Oh, one other thing. This almost always happens when the loco is moving forward, but I did see it do it in reverse once maybe twice.
trwroute I haven't seen this in any of the replies, but have you checked the wheelsets gauge using an NMRA gauge? If they are gauged wrong, it could cause a short running over, or through, a frog.
Yes Chuck, I did check the wheels with an NMRA guage and I measured the 'thread' of the wheels to see if any were wider than 'normal'. Everything checked out fine.
Thanks for the suggestion though... :)
Jarrll
My guess is that Walthers tested the locomotive when it received it and could not replicate the problem, so it lubricated the truck gears and returned the original locomotive to you. Before returning it again, you ought to call Walthers and ask if the locomotive returned to you was new or simply your original locomotive.
The big problem here is the inability to determine whether the problem is a short or a stall. That is not meant to be a criticism of you Jarrell, but that would be Priority One to narrow down the problem. When a loco stops or pauses unexpectedly, it is always either an electrical short or a stall for lack of power.
You didn't really answer the question as to whether it ever stops on the non-turnout portions of your layout. Does it always occur only on turnouts?
I have experienced stalling problems on turnouts and sometimes straight track on Walthers GP15. Walthers replaced the old reliable Athearn BB cloned truck design with a new 14:1 gear ratio truck demanded by DCC/Consisting folks. The new truck design uses 4 metal wipers for each wheel that contact the axles near the gears, all of which is contained inside the casing of the truck.
Walthers also lubes the gears with grease or oil. I have seen globs of grease targeted for the gears to come extremely close to the wiper/axle contact point. The fact that Walthers has sent OP a loco with oil on the outside of the truck tells me there is oil on the inside of the truck, possibly fouling the 4 wiper to axle contact points.
Unfortunately, the only way to determine if all of the wipers are contacting the axles (and I've seen some where they did not contact them as strong as others) is to open up the bottom of the truck.
It only takes poor contact on an intermittent basis to get a DCC/Sound loco to stall. So if you can't determine a problem from your current methods, opening up the bottom of the truck is the next step.
Or just send back the loco.......again
- Douglas