I have some of the original RS-2s made by Life-Like which I have never run until recently. I took one of them out and ran it on my layout the other day. It ran fine, which made me wonder why I hadn't used it before now. I probably only ran it for a few minutes along with a few older Atlas engines, then I let it sit for a day or two.
Last night I turned on the power and it wouldn't run. The light would come on, but it wouldn't move. i took off the shell and the motor seemed bound up. I turned the flywheels a bit and tried again. It moved, but barely, even at full speed (these are just plain DC). I checked to see if the gears were cracked. If they are, the cracks are very small and don't seem to be enough to cause the problem since it ran fine the last time. Regardless of what I did, the engine would barely turn. It did, but slowly and erratically.
So does anyone have any idea of what could have happened in between sessions?
Jim
My first guess is that you were lucky yesterday and got the last gasp yer gonna get.
Until you oil the motor.
You said "the motor seemed bound up". Put a wee drop on each bearing and see if the bind goes away.
Do NOT give prolonged power to the motor until you fix it. You might go from a bind to a burn, if ya get my drift.
Ed
I happen to be "going over" three of my old Proto 1000 RS-2s. These are probably sixteen years old and were some of the first that I did decoder installs in. I don't ever recall having to change the axle gears in them (the RS-2s) but I may have.
Once you have the shell off it is pretty easy to release the "worm gear clip" that holds the trucks to the frame. It has two ears that keep the truck from falling out.
You can unclip this and pull the worm gear out, careful not to lose the small square bearing and the thrust washer. Then the drive shafts will slip out. Now you can spin the motor by itself to see if anything is binding there. Then you can spin the wheels to see if the gearing in the trucks is OK.
I had one once that somehow got a small chunk of plastic in the truck gearing. With the sticky grease, it would present a problem then go away for a while.
If you want to continue carefully unsnap the bottom cover off the trucks. Take careful note of how everything goes together. Clean out the old grease first using a cotton swab or paper towels. Then use a solvent to clean out the remaining grease.
Look everything over. Try to twist the wheels on the axle gear. If they can be turned fairly easily you will have to replace the axle gears. Athearn #60024 will work. Most Proto owners change out the gears just to be sure. You will need to regauge the wheels using an NMRA wheel flange gauge. If the axles are pushed in too far the axle ends can short inside the gear.
I have had a few cracked gear situations where the motor shaft would stop in just the right (wrong) position and the drive shaft and motor would lock-up.
I have been using the Labelle PTFE gear grease but others seem to like nano oil or Labelle gear oil. Just be sure what you use is plastic compatible. There's a very light oil by CRC called 2-26 which is what I use on the motor sleeve bearings.
Now put the whole thing back together!
In their day, Life-Like made a pretty good locomotive and I'll bet a large percentage of them are still hauling the freight (or passengers)
I hope that gets you enough info, Good Luck.
The grease that LL used in the truck gear train tended to turn to sticky goo over time. It may have settled to the bottom, then was stirred up by the ops last evening. Once it rested, things gelled up again, but with it sliming all over your gears enough so things are bound up. Clean up the trucks, then see how things do. The drop of oil on the motor bearings also a good idea at this age.
Ed's discussion of cracked gears may be relevant. However, the grease cleanup is the lowhanging fruit here. Cracked gears are usually reliable noise emitters, as in clunk, clunk, clunk, etc, so unless that's sound like what is happening, you may be good on that issue.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I may be wrong but I think that P1K locomotives are not known for the cracked gear problem. However, Proto locomotives are known for poor lubrication out of the box. Follow Ed instructions about cleaning and lubricating and you will have a nice runner. I have one of those P1K RS-2 and I like it a lot.
Good luck.
Guy
Modeling CNR in the 50's
If Proto's don't work for you, you can alway purchase a RTR RS-3 from Athearn to use as a back-up engine.
Check out the gear boxes/trucks for concrete lube.
Maybe not concrete, but clay like would cover it. Then go from there.
Thanks for all of the suggestions. Here is what I have found so far - the trucks are very well lubed. Nothing was dried up or frozen from lack of lubrication. Some of the gears are cracked, but I didn't get any noise when I ran it before.
I took it all the way down to removing the motor. The motor doesn't seem to have a lot of torque when I apply power, but I don't have anything to compare it to, so maybe that's how they are. It turns freely, though.
There does seem to be a lot of play in the axles (too much) and the square axle bearings seem to move out of place. When I replaced the gears in another engine I noticed that the new replacement gears are a little wider which eliminates some of the play. Since the gears are cracked, I'm going to try replacing them.
If that doesn't solve the problem, then I don't know what else I can do. I still don't understand how it ran nicely one day and then quit the next time I turned it on.
ATSFGuy If Proto's don't work for you, you can alway purchase a RTR RS-3 from Athearn to use as a back-up engine.
Oh, I have plenty of Atlas RS-3s. RS-1s too. And some Athearn RS-3s, which ran horribly until I started replacing cracked gears. I just thought the RS-2s would be different.
If that were my RS-2, I would take the motor out and clip 2 alligator clips to a DC power pack and the others to the motor leads. If the motor spins without noise (which it probably will) then you have a binding issue in the trucks.
With them being LL models, you check for cracks in the gears as you've been doing, but really, if you haven't ever done a teardown of the trucks on a model that's been sitting, then that's on you. You really need to do that. Pull them apart, noting position and orientation of each gear, clean the trucks out with alcohol, and then lube with labelle grease or oil - the lube type varies between open and closed style trucks, check their site for details.
Unless a model is brand new (as in manufactured within the last year or so,) I generally do this to avoid actually damaging anything or putting undue stress on any of the components. Some of these bits can be really expensive or hard to find.
EDIT: Okay, I just read your last post. Sometimes when you see a loco work one day and not move the next, it's because of a cumulative load on the motor - i.e. you have binding at multiple spots. Grease is a common cause for this, because once old grease works its way through the entire truck and then it cools, you've basically spread the "glue" that it's turned into throughout the gear path.
Cracked gears can also cause this. Depending on what gear cracks, it can bind multiple gears in the path or just one.
Gear axle slop is a rare one but I've also had this happen on one loco, so I thought it worth mentioning. This is where the axle that the gear sits on (sometimes molded into the gear, sometimes not - in the case of Athearn/LL/Walthers parts, the gear spins on an axle. In Bachmann, the axle is part of the gear and spins in a bearing hole) This problem is always wear-based and will require replacing the gear. This happens as a result of a mismachined part, a piece of gunk getting into the gear axle area, or a really, REALLY worn out gearset.
That's the long answer. Phew. I hope that helps!
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
I guess I'll know when I rebuild the trucks. But since this engine probably doesn't have one hour of running on it, I don't think anything has worn. And even though folks have mentioned lubrication, this engine was practically dripping wet with oil/grease out of the box. It's all through the drivetrain. So I don't think anything is binding from lack of it.
Again, I just don't see what could have happened from one day to the next.
ctyclsscs I guess I'll know when I rebuild the trucks. But since this engine probably doesn't have one hour of running on it, I don't think anything has worn. And even though folks have mentioned lubrication, this engine was practically dripping wet with oil/grease out of the box. It's all through the drivetrain. So I don't think anything is binding from lack of it. Again, I just don't see what could have happened from one day to the next. Jim
Are you sure this locomotive is factory new? The locos I've seen that were "dripping" usually were from some other problem that someone tried to solve by lubricating it.
The important part is cleaning every part that went into the truck, you have to get all that old gunk out. It's usually got dirt or other debris caked in it. It also won't be reconstituted to any helpful extent by putting more oil/grease in, which is what some folks are under the impression of.
Disassemble the trucks, clean them completely with alcohol, relubricate, and make sure the driveshafts aren't binding between motor and truck either. AND MAKE SURE you mark the gear orientation so that they keep the same wear pattern. put a dot of siver marker on the mating sides of a gear and inside the truck if you have one. They're easy to get in the art section of most dept stores.
Brand new. Still in original box and plastic wrapping. I bought much all of my engines new back when they first came out.
I ordered new gears today so I'll resume work when they arrive.
It would seem very strange to have cracked gears after so little mileage... Anyway, don't forget to make sure that your wheels and track are clean. Having loco lights on without any action could mean poor electrical pickup. Good luck!
snjroyIt would seem very strange to have cracked gears after so little mileage...
Some cracked by merely sitting on the shelf. Either (or all) the bore was just too tight, molding not done properly (cooling too fast) or the plastic stock was not up to spec.
Temperature changes probably affected the gears, too. That's why most L-L users plan to replace the gears weather they needed to or not.
Jim, when placing the wheelsets back in the truck frame (you have to jiggle and poke with a skewer or toothpick) to engage the gear and get the two square sintered bronze bearings into the recess in the stamped metal side frame. Be sure they seat properly. It is easy to have one bound in there. Should be plenty of side-to-side play. On some occasions I have gently and slightly bent in the metal side plate to help keep the square axle bearing in place.
Regards, Ed
Thanks for the tips, Ed. I did what you said and used a small very thin screwdriver to get the bearings into place. And the bottom cover plate helps to keep them in place too once it's snapped back on, but they still seemed awfully loose to me. I thought about bending the plate slightly too. But I figured there's no sense doing anything more until I get new gears.
As I said, I just replaced the gears in an Athearn engine this week and I noticed the new ones were a bit wider which seemed to keep the bearings in place better. Actually, that was the reason I even ran the engine mentioned above. I had it sitting on the layout coupled to a train from last week. I put the repaired Athearn engine on the front of the train with the P1K engine behind it. That was when I found out something was wrong. The Athearn engine sat their struggling to pull the non-working P1K engine and the train behind it.
So here's what happened since my last post. While I was waiting for my new gears to arrive, I took out a second brand new P1K RS-3. This one had never been out of the box before. This one did the same thing as the first even though the first one had been run briefly. It just sat and vibrated under full power.
I took it apart and noticed the drive train seemed stiff, so I took the trucks apart and oiled everything. The parts that seemed to be binding were the square bearings for the worm gears. Once I got everything lubricated and back together it ran just fine.
Then the new gears arrived so I assembled the original engine. It ran much better, but something still seemed stiff. With taking two engines apart and replacing the axle gears. I may have forgotten to lubricate the worm gear bearings. Once I did that, the first engine ran fine too.
So all of you were right about it being a lubrication issue. But the gears were cracked too, so taking them apart allowed me to replace them at the same time. I also replaced some of the truck leads since the wire LL used seemed pretty stiff.
Thank you for all of your feedback. I just have two more questions:
1. There is sure a lot of play in the truck gears. Is that normal?
2. I don't recall ever lubricating any of my older Atlas/Kato engines. They run just fine, but do you think I should? I don't think I've ever taken one apart.
After a while, Life-Like owners pick up a "bag-of-tricks" accumulated over years of doing what you just accomplished, strip down the mechanicals, make an evaluation and look for the tell-tale signs of where the potential problems may lie.
Yes, the gear-train is pretty sloppy but as you found out, quality lube is important for the smooth running. The last couple of LLs I overhauled, I placed an additional thrust washer on the worm gear shaft. That takes up a little of the play and I think it helps with the forward/reverse action on the gear train. What I mean is, did you ever have an engine that runs smooth as silk in one direction and kicks and bucks in the other. The thrust washers seem to help by taking up a little of that slop.
I recently overhauled a bunch of LL E6; 7; and 8s. I didn't like the extreme sloppyness of the slip joints in the drive shafts. They were molded way out of round, too. Caused a nasty vibration at higher speeds. I found a nice universal drive shaft kit that replaces the drive shaft and universal parts.
http://www.ppw-aline.com/re-power.htm
Scroll to the bottom, part # 12030
Some of my LL engines have been sitting for more than a year or two. I'm amazed at just how quickly the lube seems to disappear on some. Once you get the knack of snapping that bottom cover off the trucks you can pop them open and check right away.
Another handy tool I found were the Bachmann test stand rollers. These things are really made well and are a big help when doing a "running gear" bench inspection.
http://shop.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2538
Don't let the list price scare you. I found some discounted for half that price.
Lots of LL owners have discovered a high pitch whine on some engines. That's nearly always motor shaft bearings or (sometimes) worm shaft bearings. I have a very fine needle applicator and I use CRC 2-26 at these points. You need the fine needle to get between the flywheel and motor end plate. Some have luck using the eye of a needle to place the oil in there.
As to the other makes, it is hit-or-miss, but open them up to be sure. I have some Bowser engines that the grease was oozing out of the axles when I bought them. I recently opened a couple of Kato RS-2s that were bone-dry and I could see the wear beginning on the gears, still they ran very smoothly (no secret about Kato's tolerances and quality )
I have amassed a pretty good collection of LL spare parts. I bought a lot of powered chassis to replace dummy units I had and some of the parts are common. Sometimes at a train show I'll find LL deals in the $25-$35 range. I scoop these up when I can.
Glad you made your engines feel better!
So in some cases, the R-T-R means Rip-apart To Relubricate? : )
gmpullman others seem to like nano oil or Labelle gear oil. Just be sure what you use is plastic compatible.
I have just learned that Nano Oil is not plastic compatible. Please read this:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/261415.aspx
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Interesting timing that this should come back up, now.
After about ten years of running a pair of P1K RS2s pretty regularly, we finally declared them worn out a few weeks ago.
Over that decade, we've replaced several axles with cracked gears and lubed various the gears and bearings repeatedly (though probably not as often as it turns out that we should have). They've gradually begun drawing more current than we'd like, so we started looking for replacements. For as much as we use them (about twice each operating "day"), they have required more attention than our other power, which has Athearn Genesis and Kato mechanisms.
I prefer the Kato RS2's mechanism, but the shell's too-high radiator fan sticks out badly to me, to the point that I find it distracting. My past attempts to slice off the top of the fan, file down the base, then glue the top back on, have not been very satisfactory. Plus, I have too many other projects on the workbench to want to take on painting a pair of shells, when I have a perfectly good pair of P1K shells already in the right scheme (Monon).
The solution I've come up with is to buy a couple of used Kato RS2s (I got a pair for under $100, total, at the show at W. Springfield this year), and grind down the ends of the frames so that they will fit beneath the P1K shells. The only real obstacle, so far, is that the Kato frame doesn't clear the coupler mounting on the P1K shell.
Tonight I meet with a friend who has volunteered to do the milling, and will hand off the frames. Once the shell clears the coupler mounting, I'll look at the overall height and see whether any other frame work is necessary.
-Fritz Milhaupt, Publications Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.http://www.pmhistsoc.org
fmilhauptAfter about ten years of running a pair of P1K RS2s pretty regularly, we finally declared them worn out a few weeks ago. Over that decade, we've replaced several axles with cracked gears and lubed various the gears and bearings repeatedly (though probably not as often as it turns out that we should have). They've gradually begun drawing more current than we'd like, so we started looking for replacements. For as much as we use them (about twice each operating "day"), they have required more attention than our other power, which has Athearn Genesis and Kato mechanisms. I prefer the Kato RS2's mechanism, but the shell's too-high radiator fan sticks out badly to me, to the point that I find it distracting. My past attempts to slice off the top of the fan, file down the base, then glue the top back on, have not been very satisfactory. Plus, I have too many other projects on the workbench to want to take on painting a pair of shells, when I have a perfectly good pair of P1K shells already in the right scheme (Monon). The solution I've come up with is to buy a couple of used Kato RS2s (I got a pair for under $100, total, at the show at W. Springfield this year), and grind down the ends of the frames so that they will fit beneath the P1K shells. The only real obstacle, so far, is that the Kato frame doesn't clear the coupler mounting on the P1K shell. Tonight I meet with a friend who has volunteered to do the milling, and will hand off the frames. Once the shell clears the coupler mounting, I'll look at the overall height and see whether any other frame work is necessary.
It sounds like you are going about this the hard way... Why not try to discover the cause of the increased current draw and replace those parts? Im thinking your motor brushes might be worn down? 10 years sounds rather fast for a locomotive to wear out.
I see this all the time with Proto Athearn blue box clones. This is true of P1K and P2K models. The first thing I do is take the truck bottoms off. Then remove the four wheel sets. At that point, apply power to the left and right metal plates on one of the trucks. Most of the time the motor will run freely. If it does not, then the bind is further up the drive, likely hard grease in the truck gear boxs. The tower bearings on these drive can bind with a little grit. The outcome is the same, the motor does not run. A good cleaning and proper lubrication is warranted at this point. For units that have been stored for years, this is a good thing to do, even if the unit runs.
As I indicated, most of the time the axle gears are the culprit.
Another factor that maybe part of the problem is the motor type. Ironically, P1K units have can motors. These are great, but tend to fail faster when they get too hot for whatever reason. Good luck.
So many trains, so little time,
Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com
Proto's axle and worm gear bearings can freeze up on engines that sit in their boxes for a long time. Adding a drop of thin oil and working the bearings with your fingers will free them up. Replacing them with Athearn bearings is a longer-term solution. The Athearn bearings won't stick to a magnet, older Proto bearings do, suggesting different metals are used.
OK... what am I doing right? I have 3 LL P2K GP-9s, one E-6, and one SD-7. These locomotives have never had any operational issues, and they receive occasional Labelle oil.
.
Did I get the only six LL P2K locomotives that were well made?
Are they all going to fail now that I wrote this?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
BMMECNYC It sounds like you are going about this the hard way... Why not try to discover the cause of the increased current draw and replace those parts? Im thinking your motor brushes might be worn down? 10 years sounds rather fast for a locomotive to wear out.
LION is replacing all of the motors in his fleet of LL/W P1K subway cars.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
fmilhauptSince replacing the motors in-kind on the P1Ks would involve buying a couple more mechanisms to use for parts (as these are now Walthers products, and they don't stock parts), I may as well buy mechanisms I like better, and that use the same parts as other locomotives on my roster. Kato still offers repair parts for their RS2s.
My point was instead of replacing the entire mechanism with a new one, just buy motors. There are third party vendors that provide motors, some of which may be a drop in replacement.
All i can say is that i have 1 AtlasTrainman hopper car because T&P freight cars are actually scarce. This entire dicussion reminds me of the myriad reasons why I have basically given up on (most) HO plastic engines in favor of the higher end recently produced Boo Rim or Samtech brass steam. Sure i could diassemble and clean some plastic stuff, but i do not have time and would not enjoy doing it at all.
Hi Men - Many of you sound like master mechanics and I haven't taken any locos apart.
I advance ordered 2 B&M P1K RS-2s in late April 2011, that arrived in early 2012. I've not run them yet. Should I expect the kind of trouble you folks have experienced, and should I plan on all that gear work when I get some trackwork done? SHEEeeesh!