In early 1962, I had purchased from a magazine rack in a convience store a Railroad Model Craftsman with the cover story about John Allen's fabulous Gorre and Daphetid railroad. I grew up with my father's huge O gauge railroad that I thought was the best ever, but this thing...Holy buckets of bubbled bull poop!!!
I was hooked completely and read this story several times on that very day, and of course never looked back.
My question is would this incredible work of art attract newbies today or would it be articles on advanced electronics and DCC? I know that during the same era there were many articles on Bruce Chubb's layout with advanced (for the time) electronics with the emphasis on the electronics. Had an article on model railroad electronics been the cover feature, I would have most likely passed it up.
50 years back there were two basic genres in model railroading (besides collecting and armchair)..........building trains and structures and building a layout. Today, layouts and some really good ones are being built, but all else seems to be RTR. Electronics now seem to be the main drawing factor in attracting younger modelers, and that is fine. To me it is just different and a sign of the times. Is it possible that newbies are just missing out on the fun and pride of accomplishment from building, or even assembling a fine kit or scratch building.....be it a structure, freight or passenger car....or a locomotive?
About a year back at one of my open houses, I was running a 50 car train of wood kit built and some scratch built cars by two younger visitors..........said the first fellow."Gee, I didn't know Athearn made all of these". I was not upset at all, just made me realize my age and dinosaur status. Still it is the greatest hobby ever......... whether the trains are bought or built.
HZ
The answer is yes...................
Electronics is the new age now, that is a given. On the other hand there is a huge jump from Ready To Run to the likes of a George Selios layout.
I am 39 and I have a 6yr old into HO and a 3 yr old to follow. I buy sales/ebay/etc. We do sound installs where it saves money and build as many kits as we can get our hands on cheap.
I left in my 20's just before the rattle the box approach was shot in the foot and have gotten back in the last year or so.
Howard ZaneMy question is would this incredible work of art attract newbies today or would it be articles on advanced electronics and DCC?
They say you should make sure your trackwork is reliable before starting scenery and one way to test it is to have operating sessions.
Would you be interested in a magazine cover showing pictures of a layout without scenery, showing exposed benchwork and panels of electronics?
In some ways, the wiring today is simpler that it was 20 years ago. But the electronics today provides much more capability: besides DCC, signaling, auto-reversers, computer/phone control.
while there are many aspects to model railroading involving many skills, I think a level of completeness is expected and that include scenery. Ironically, when I read a layout description in a magazine I can only assume that everything works reliably and doesn't make any presumptions about realistic operation.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Hi Howard:
Personally I think that we really need to use the attraction of electronics to get the younger crowd interested. In fact, we need their electronic skills in order for us to be able to make better use of the electronics that are available today.
For example, I feel that the possibilities that Arduino offers are barely being explored. If we could get some of these electronic whiz kids to sit down with a model train layout and a bunch of Arduino modules and apply their creativity I think they would generate tons of ideas. They would also save us some money by making things like flasher control circuits, welding simulators, sensor systems, signal systems and lighting control dirt cheap. Granted, that won't do the current manufacturers any good unless they adopt the technology themselves.
As for getting deeply involved in layout building and scratch building, that might be a bit more of a challenge. Most kids today are indoctrinated into instant gratification. Even in areas where they are building things themselves like R/C, they want to be able to put things together fast and get it on the track as soon as possible. They are used to having the parts ready made so all they have to do is bolt them together. The concept of using hand tools to actually make a part from raw materials is foreign to many of them.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Hi!
I've been in the hobby for well over 60 years and have made it no secret to those I have gotten to know. I have found one common denominator with those that showed a real interest in the hobby, and that was a "love" - a sincere interest - in trains. Without that, why bother with the hobby?
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Neither one amounts to a hill of beans.
First one has to have a interest in model trains and railroads and if that's not there then it doesn't matter. You or I would not be in the hobby if we didn't have that interest.
My oldest grandson is a modeler and buys the higher detail models and uses DCC while my youngest grandson could care less about model trains and railroads. My son has no interest even though he thinks DCC is far better then all that DC wiring-he remembers watching me wire a N Scale HCD layout other then that zero interest.
According to a teacher that's been teaching art for 40 years says model railroading is not a art.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Larry,
I completely disagree with you. Model railraoding is indeed an art practiced by folks with talent all over the board. Sure, a simple layout on a 4 x 8 plywood sheet being called a fine art could be stretching it a bit............but what then would you call Allen's and Sellios' pikes?
Different times.
I built a Heathkit shortwave radio when I was a kid. I see a few HAM license plates these days but not many. Now instead of passing a Morse code test to talk to someone in real time hundreds of miles away, you can do that on the internet.
Meanwhile more time is spent commuting, surfing the Internet, streaming and playing on line games. Time is precious and in short supply. That any young person is interested in model railroading is evidence of nostalgia and creativitiy in the human spirit.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Howard Zane Larry, I completely disagree with you. Model railraoding is indeed an art practiced by folks with talent all over the board. Sure, a simple layout on a 4 x 8 plywood sheet being called a fine art could be stretching it a bit............but what then would you call Allen's and Sellios' pikes? HZ
Howard,
I too believe the railroad interest is primary. As for Allen or Sellios', well, in my view your own layout is well above both of them in terms of scenery.
I will defer to others as to calling the building of a model railroad "art".
Personally, the F&SM does little for me. It surely would have never inspired me to be in this hobby. In my opinion it is a caricature. The depression was not that depressing........Sellios is great craftsman, just not my cup of tea........
The G&D, well it was interesting, but even as a teen reading MR in those days it was not the kind of layout I wanted.
Again, your own modeling, or the scenery on the Severna Park Model Railroad Club, is much more inspiring than those examples.
As for all this "how do we interest young people", well again, leave me out of that part, don't know...........
I was introduced into fairly serious modeling at a young age - it took hold. My 7th grade science project was on the workings of the Westinghouse Air Brake - how many on this forum today know how train brakes actually work? Well I know Larry does......
For me the hobby is building model trains and the support systems that put them in a realistic setting. Another one of my loves is Architecture, so modeling the "world" the trains exist in is just as important - but I see myself as more of an Architect/Engineer than an artist - my day job is restoring historic homes....
Electronics - well I have a background it that, originally trained as an electrical design draftsman, I designed and built relay control systems in the days before computers, programed some of the first PLC'S in industrial control, but today I have no interest in the latest high tech of modeling.
I use a DC control system that includes detection, signaling, CTC and radio throttles, based on the early work of Bruce Chubb, Ed Ravenscroft and Paul Mallery.
I have no interest in DCC, sound, smoke, station announcements, computers, smart phone throttles, ditch lights, etc, etc........
So again, while I like, and do build realistic scenery - for me this is a hobby about railroads, railroad operation, the railroads purpose and invironment - it's not about "art" - except maybe for the Architecture...
Sheldon
PS - as for bought vs built - my modeling efforts combine every available resource. I scratch build, kit bash, run "shake the box" kits, and build craftsman kits. And I buy RTR - even a very few pieces of brass RTR. I like to build, but I also am interested in the "complete" layout system - so I use every resource available to balance my skills, time and resources to the best effect.
Howard ZaneI was running a 50 car train of wood kit built and some scratch built cars by two younger visitors...
Howard ZaneStill it is the greatest hobby ever..
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Howard Zane............but what then would you call Allen's and Sellios' pikes?
Let's call them what they are advanced layouts? There's nothing special about those two layouts that hasn't been done or done better over the years. The former V&O and AM was superior in many ways. Then there's the Utah Belt and the Muamee Route.
BRAKIE Howard Zane ............but what then would you call Allen's and Sellios' pikes? Let's call them what they are advanced layouts? There's nothing special about those two layouts that hasn't been done or done better over the years. The former V&O and AM was superior in many ways. Then there's the Utah Belt and the Muamee Route.
Howard Zane ............but what then would you call Allen's and Sellios' pikes?
Completely agreed, all four of those layouts have inspired me at some point.
All of those modelers present a balanced picture - scenery, history, operation, purpose - about railroading.
I did not see the Gorre & Daphetid, or the F&SM, only the pictures and articles, and imo Howard's layout achieves a more "realistic" look rather than the whimsical, somewhat more fantastical look they did. The civil engineer in me appreciates the "realistic" approach perhaps more...
I think there's room for all kinds in this hobby.
When I think about what interested me personally the most in this hobby, when I was a kid, it may have been the Trains articles from the '70's, and not the artistic layouts or the electronics. Perhaps a bit "schmaltzy" or certainly very artistic in their writing style, the articles of that era are forever burned into my mind...I can still quote words and phrases from them today even though I no longer have paper copies.
I'm talking about articles like "Her Spirit Will Never Die", about the last CZ F units running out their final miles on freight, or "1:58 AM at Wishram" from the "Alco Adieu" issue, which vividly discusses the ghostly apparitions of Alcos the author's eyes saw late at night...or was it just his mind playing tricks on him? Then there's "Sunrise over the longest tangent" (in the U.S.).
The writers of that era reached out from the printed page and grabbed a hold of you and got your attention.
Today, uh, not so much. Somewhere along the way it seems to me we lost something.
John
I think an interest in trains, either the minature or the real thing is needed. There are other hobbies that are artistic or mechanical/electronic, so on some level trains has to be part of the interest. Individuals are different, just as there are many ways to do the hobby. Some are collectors, some love building structures, some scenery, some operations. So why someone comes and stays is different also.
For me, it was the minature trains that captured my interest. While John Allen's layout certainly appealed to the artistic side, it was the EBT layout plan in MR December 1971 layout that really hooked me. It was a minature railroad.
Enjoy
Paul
Hi Howard
I to was hit by the Wow factor of some of the early layouts like the G&D. RR and The Madder Valley Railway.
And some of the wonderfull gizmo's people where making to do variouse things all in DC
For todays young first you have to pry the play station or other tech out of their hands.
Once that's done you will need all the digital tech and RTR to get there atention,
once you have it then they sudenly seem to become a lot more interested in model railroads and how other things are done.
Amazingly some even regress to the low tech model railroad building of our youth.
You do realize that five minutes after you finish that wonderfull scratch build.
One of the manufacturers will have the gall to anounce their new product the model you just sweated hours to get right and finished
regards John
Why would an electronics aficionado or computer nerd wish to get involved into DCC and computer control if it weren´t for the love of trains? DCC is a means, not a purpose!
I think that is a conditio sine qua non!
John BusbyAmazingly some even regress to the low tech model railroad building of our youth.
John - that´s exactly happening to me! I am sick and tired of having to deal with all those delicate gadges and frail machinery, that I honestly think of going back to my youth and build a nostalgic layout using the tin plate stuff I had then and the means and methods, as well as materials employed in building a layout in those days. That stuff was indestructable!
I am also happily getting out of the race for the most realistic scenes, buildings, scratchbuild gizmos - you name it - and go back to having just pure fun!
This is what I am currently planning:
Sir Madog Why would an electronics aficionado or computer nerd wish to get involved into DCC and computer control if it weren´t for the love of trains? DCC is a means, not a purpose!
There you go. Ulrich said it best. No kids who loves electronics is going to be drawn to model trains for that reason alone. On the other hand, kids who model trains are going to love the electronics associated with the hobby.
As far as art goes, who wouldn't literally gasp at a superbly landscaped layout, especially one with mountains, forests, bridges and streams. But, would that experience be sufficient to draw a kid into model railroading? I seriously doubt it.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrainThere you go. Ulrich said it best. No kids who loves electronics is going to be drawn to model trains for that reason alone.
Or those that might become interested in the hobby as they grow older is currently playing Train Sim and enjoying every minute of the game.
During the week of the county fair I have had teenagers to ask me about DCC and how it works and I explain it to them and when I tell them trains could be ran by computer their eyes lit up. Oddly less then a handful had model trains.
Hi sir madog
That sounds smells and looks like Marklin??
Me I am looking for old articals on building structures in card I do like good realistic scenery for me thats the fun bit.
But would be quite happy with the older and less detailed model trains from my childhood where super detailing would be puting a brass whistle safety valve and oh the luxury a brass name and number plate and thats about it no fiddley bits to break.
Now if I could only find a good Triang Davy Crocket body and red 4wh caboose I would be in model train heaven. I did look at an old Marklin caboose but could not figure out what metal insulated wheels to get or how I was going to change the couplings.
John BusbyThat sounds smells and looks like Marklin??
It does indeed!
The "Bay" is stuffed with reasonable offers on old Marklin locos, cars, track and accessories here in Germany, so going down that route is an affordable option.
I wish I could start on that, but neither have I the space for that layout, nor the funds.
Rich - I bet if I were to display that old Marklin layout at a train show, with three trains whizzing around and a loco being turned on the TT, it would draw minimum as much attention with the kids than that eloborate logging layout displayed next to it - providing the Shay (or Climax, or Heisler) has sound and is contantly sounding the bell and the whistle).
Kids love action - and adults, too!
I tend to agree that an interest in trains specifically is key to the hobby. I have been inspired by many layouts in the magazines including some of the freelance mentioned. I've only seen the G&D in some photo's and it looked artistic in a Disney sort of way but wasn't my bag, to use a sixties term.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Sir Madogit would draw minimum as much attention with the kids than that eloborate logging layout displayed next to it - providing the Shay (or Climax, or Heisler) has sound and is contantly sounding the bell and the whistle).
Unless that logging layout is hands free computer operated and that would get their attention faster the sound.
You are right..Everybody loves action and that includes yard switching.
BRAKIEUnless that logging layout is hands free computer operated and that would get their attention faster then sound.
... but only if there is more than 1 loco going back and forth and the layout is packed with other action items, like lod loading/unloading, a working saw mill et.al.
I think kids are thrilled by the action and not by how the action is controlled.
Sir MadogI think kids are thrilled by the action and not by how the action is controlled.
Without a doubt.. Ever see a group of kids around a Lionel display layout that has lots of animation going on? They will watch for a long time in order to take everything in.
Teenagers on the other hand would be interested in how a computer operated model train works.
BRAKIETeenagers on the other hand would be interested in how a computer operated model train works.
... providing you got them hooked on trains with that Lionel layout while they were little kids.
Back to Howard´s original question, my personal order is:
While it makes for good conversation, I don't think most people not in the hobby already would see the choice as electronics vs art. The hobby embraces both...so all those who insist they're not artists can leave the room if the fact that others have no problem with the hobby being art is not their cup of tea. Some folks don't want to be artists, and that's OK, too.
Art involves self-expression in ones chosen media. From building and finishing a single car up through basement filling layouts, all offer opportunities for making choices that reflect our interests, skills, and the way we wish to depict the railroad scene.
Electronics can even be art, as these examples using the Raspberry Pi - beloved by RR hackers -- demonstrate: https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/tag/art/
Truth be told, Bear and others who've mentioned that interest in trains comes before all else in getting people into the hobby...
...the one constant in attracting newbies to the hobby over the years is the sight of trains running on track.
Where those trains lead to once the RR bug has bitten can vary widely. Even if art is not your bag, writing art off as a factor in keeping people interested in the hobby for anyone other than yourself is somewhat short-sighted. Same thing with saying RTR isn't interesting enough to hold a person's interest. That's clearly not the case, even if we personally prefer to build things when that's within our personal skillset.
The bottom line is that this hobby is far too diverse to say any single factor is "best" as we may know our personal preferences well, but we are rarely so accurate about what gets and keeps others interested. It takes all kinds.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Sir Madogproviding you got them hooked on trains with that Lionel layout while they were little kids.
Or they enjoy playing Train Sim-that replaced that old Lionel layouts several years ago.
Mike,I've heard of Starving Artist sales but,never a starving model railroader sale.
mlehmanThe bottom line is that this hobby is far too diverse to say any single factor is "best" as we may know our personal preferences well, but we are rarely so accurate about what gets and keeps others interested. It takes all kinds.
Bravo!
BRAKIEMike,I've heard of Starving Artist sales but,never a starving model railroader sale. Stick out tongue
That's because the hobby is too expensive for starving artists (please, let's not go THERE! ), so only the non-starving can find the moolah to be model railroaders, too.
Ulrich,
Thanks!
When I first saw the John Allen cover story in 1962, I was totally immersed in learning to fly and everything to do with aviation. This became my career for the next 18 years. My dad had a huge layout, but it was his....not mine. I did have two uncles who ran steam, but as a growing up kid during the 40's and 50's, my interests were flying model planes....R/C, control line, and freeflight. Then at 16, I got my private pilot's license..and that was my life until the RMC magazine article.
My college background was industrial design with some fine art, and most likely these taught skills were the reason I could build a decent and almost acceptible layout. Almost directly after college, I went into the military and continued with avaition. But.........my interests due to this Allen layout knawed at me until finally I began my dream layout. Yes, it was most definitely the fine art of John Allen's creation that drew me into the hobby....and many others from my era.
I'll admit that what I am to electronics , Vlad the Impaler was to liberal thinking, and that is OK as my real interests lie above the bench work. I have known some really good electronics folks and many who have helped me....do wiring that to me could be construed as art. I guess you could say is that what is art lies within the beholder.
With my association with the train shows, I was privy to visit many wonderful layouts...........some so good that if the builder was a painter or sculptor, his work would have adorned the walls of many of the worlds's finest museums. Anyone ever see Bob Lawson's SRR pike in Cinncinatti? If so, I rest my case!
I make mention of John Allen's wonderful work.......two things: His layout was built during the 40' through the 60's and way ahead of his time in most everything. And I'll be glad to listen to the many negative comments about his layout after I can see what has been done by the person making the comments.