Walthers sells some nice looking F-units in the Santa Fe warbonnet passsenger scheme. They offer an AB set and an additional A unit to make an ABA set.
Problem with that. Santa Fe did not operate Passenger F's in ABA sets. A three-unit set would instead be an ABB set.
Santa Fe passenger A units did not have steam generators (They did have the steam pipe connnections however) . Only the B-units had them.
When Santa Fe purchased its passenger F3's, it bought ABBA sets. When they purchased passenger F7's, it bought ABB sets. As a result it had more B-units than A-units.
Eventually, the early F3's were modernized to look very much like the newer F7's with stainless steel grills covering the air intakes.
Typical consists in the 1950's would be AB, ABB, or ABBA. By the 1960's, some trains were combined into long trains, and 5 units, 6 units, or more would be common. Commonly, the A-units would be leading the consist facing forward. For example, a 5-unit consist would be AABBB.
There may have been a rare exception to these practices, but I have never seen it. Also, I have never seen a single Santa Fe passenger A-unit or an AA consist hauling a passenger train (F-units) on the Santa Fe.
Conclusion: .... Walthers should sell extra B-units allowing modelers to assemble prototypical Santa Fe passneger F-unit consists.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
Heartland Division CB&Q Walthers sells some nice looking F-units in the Santa Fe warbonnet passsenger scheme. They offer an AB set and an additional A unit to make an ABA set. Problem with that. Santa Fe did not operate Passenger F's in ABA sets. A three-unit set would instead be an ABB set. Santa Fe passenger A units did not have steam generators (They did have the steam pipe connnections however) . Only the B-units had them. When Santa Fe purchased its passenger F3's, it bought ABBA sets. When they purchased passenger F7's, it bought ABB sets. As a result it had more B-units than A-units. Eventually, the early F3's were modernized to look very much like the newer F7's with stainless steel grills covering the air intakes. Typical consists in the 1950's would be AB, ABB, or ABBA. By the 1960's, some trains were combined into long trains, and 5 units, 6 units, or more would be common. Commonly, the A-units would be leading the consist facing forward. For example, a 5-unit consist would be AABBB. There may have been a rare exception to these practices, but I have never seen it. Also, I have never seen a single Santa Fe passenger A-unit or an AA consist hauling a passenger train (F-units) on the Santa Fe. Conclusion: .... Walthers should sell extra B-units allowing modelers to assemble prototypical Santa Fe passneger F-unit consists.
I don't model the ATSF, and I will not buy Walthers F units any more because of the gear ratio change, but it would seem odd if they are not selling seperate B units?
Sheldon
I hear ya on the lack of extra Santa Fe B units.
I use Athearn Genesis models instead. Shells look better. And they too come in AB sets. Or single A sets.
Here is a late era AABBBA:
Matt from Anaheim, CA and Bayfield, COClick Here for my model train photo website
Intermountain has ATSF F3's, A's and B's in stock, different numbers available, and they sell them individually. And they have done the F7's in the past, so they are out there to be found.
Personally, I would go with Intermoutain or Genesis rather than Walthers.
I've seen a few rare ABAB sets.
Also, the ABBBA set was very common.
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
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This Santa Fe publicity photo of the Super Chief has an ABB set which was common in the 1950's.
I am unable to find an image of an ABA set as Walthers is selling if the buyer combines the AB set with the single A unit.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I will not buy Walthers F units any more because of the gear ratio change Sheldon
Yours is the first comment I can recall reading about not liking the Walthers F units because the gear ratio. Sure, I remember some of the P2K loco's made by LL that people complained about but never the F units.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
If you guys bought the Walthers ATSF Super Chief F7s. That came in a ABBA sets to model a prototypical consist. Then you wouldn't have problems with these F units.
Plus I was also outraged about the ABA consist set. And I some what model the Santa Fe.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
Don't get me wrong here. Garry asked a reasonable question about the obvious need for extra B units in this case. I agree with his conclusion that Walthers should have extra B units available. They're obviously missing potential sales here. But...
angelob6660I was also outraged about the ABA consist set.
Outrage?
I think reality TV and that mud-wrestling event that comes up every 4 years are devaluing our culture and langauge. This is, after all, just a hobby. I can see disappointment, or desire for additional production to make up for this B unit gap, or motivation to even paint and decal additional B units to make up for this oversight.
Outrage, though, seems a bit over the top.
Look at it this way. All Walthers did was selectively compress those ABBBA or other longer consists to ABA. Yes, I can understand why some definitely want the ABB consist, per Garry's thoughtful comments. I just don't understand outrage.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
All I know is that when I was really little (1960s) we used to ride the train from Chicago to Los Angeles and one of my fondest memories was before we boarded the train my grandfather and I would walk up to the front to see the locomotives. We would walk past silver car after silver car, then we would come to these really loud cars which had motors in them (B units) and then we would get to the locomotive (A unit). Yup it was always just one single A unit at the lead and it looked so cool with the bright red war bonnet, like it had gone so fast that the nose was glowing red hot from the friction. ABB was the latch up that I remember. I never remember seeing an A unit anywhere except in the lead, and never two A units.
j..........
Thanks to each person who commented in this thread. ... I grew up near Chicago, and family trips were by train. Santa Fe was among the railroads we rode on.
When I was a teen age railfan, I saw many Santa Fe passenger trains. (Most train watching, however, was CB&Q close to my house.)
Below is a 1952 EMD builders photo of an ATSF F7 ABB. Later, Santa Fe added an extra headlight, grab irons over the front, and MU connections.
Hi Garry,
I have been following this thread, but no comment until now...I saw that engine You just posted, running past Dearborn station tracks. I lived less than two miles from downtown Chgo. starting in 1942....didn't move to the burb's, until the 80's...if I had a camera then...... If You liked passenger trains...Chicago was the place to about see them all.....any Road name. LOL.
Take Care!
Frank
zstripeIf You liked passenger trains...Chicago was the place to about see them all.....any Road name. LOL.
They say in Europe, "All roads lead to Rome". I say in America, "All railroads lead to Chicago." lol
mlehman angelob6660 I was also outraged about the ABA consist set. I think reality TV and that mud-wrestling event that comes up every 4 years are devaluing our culture and langauge. Outrage, though, seems a bit over the top. I just don't understand outrage.
angelob6660 I was also outraged about the ABA consist set.
I think reality TV and that mud-wrestling event that comes up every 4 years are devaluing our culture and langauge.
I just don't understand outrage.
Alton Junction
One more thought.
Walthers is a very good company, and I am pleased with many of their products which are now on my layout. I look forward ot acquiring more in the future.
I would hope they would read this thread, and take it as constructive criticism. Their newly announced 1954 El Capitan would be perfect if it had a 300 Class F7 ABB hauling it.
Thanks again to others who commented in this thread.
Garry,
You got Me all wound up reading this thread....so much so that I dug out all My passenger equipment that I had stored for the past 25yrs. All Athearn A's and B's, In the process of installing the dress-up kits, (grabs, railings etc.) that I had bought back in the 80's but never really put them on. I also had ordered two Walther's Proto F3 A's ATSF (DC) DCC ready which are Excellent runner's and all detail, grabrails, interior w/figures, etc. already installed, grabs are stainless steel. For a 101.00 I thought that was a fantastic deal...not a flaw on any of them. Walthers has really come a long way in the past few yrs. with exceptional models and I will continue to be a customer. Also picked up quite a few of their Walthers Mainline ATSF passenger cars....again flawless, with diaphragms that work, spring loaded 25.98 on sale,metal wheelsets.
I would be willing to bet....there will be F7 B's in the near future...a lot of Modeler's have been asking.
I found this great video of a ABBA ATSF consist running on the Colorado Model Railroad Museum layout any one interested. There are also other 1950's/60's video's of most all consists talked about in this thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOXeNVgp6c0
''Super Chief'' 1960's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOAtPv3Vdjc
Being upset over a lack of a B unit is pretty lame IMO. Get over it.
Put together another set from other mfgs. Life is too short to get angry about a hobby.
Heartland Division CB&QWalthers sells some nice looking F-units in the Santa Fe warbonnet passsenger scheme. They offer an AB set and an additional A unit to make an ABA set. Problem with that. Santa Fe did not operate Passenger F's in ABA sets. A three-unit set would instead be an ABB set.
While I understand your irked-ness about Walthers marketing decision with these Santa Fe Warbonnet Fs, doesn't the AB & A packages allow for some multiple "correct" configurations?
You could purchase two AB sets and have the option of an ABBA or two distinct ABB sets; depending on which A-unit you have for your lead unit. And, assuming that Walthers offers more than two A-unit road numbers in their AB sets, another AB set would yield multiple distinct looks of an AB, ABB, ABBA, and AABBB configuration because of the various road numbers of the separate A- & B-units; not a bad thing in my eyes.
Also, three sets of ABs would allow you the option of running a separate AB and a ABB or ABBA unit on your layout. That's quite a few possibilities by just mixing and matching.
I agree that having the option of purchasing just a B-unit would be nice. Perhaps manufacturers are looking at those lone [powered] B-units like they seemingly are with the dummy units: They just don't sell very well.
Still hoping that someone will release an HO set of the NYC FTs in the unique "cat whisker" scheme:
Most likely I'll need to paint and detail some A-unit shells myself.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Pffft! Just put on some Dash8-40BW's or GP60's in full Warbonnet and smile!
They may not be prototype, just Soooo Cool!
How are people mad about a B unit? I would be far more mad over the ever escalating prices, the "limited edition" garbage and companies being bought and the same product being sold to you for double the cost.......
They look good, but when I've bought a car I put 100,000 miles on for less than a set of passenger cars in plastic you have to start wondering.
Why not release a train from one of these roads instead of it being Santa Fe all the time?
1. Grand Trunk Western
2. Wabash
3. Erie Lackawanna
4. Monon
5. Gulf Mobile & Ohio
6. Louiseville & Nashville
7. Chicago & Eastern Illinois
8. Texas and Pacific
9. Missouri Pacific
10. Southern
11. Atlantic Coast Line
12. Norfolk & Western
I know the eastern roads are debatable, but we should be able to see any passenger train that ran from the 40's to the 70's get released in HO Scale.
Any Suggustions?
Overly detailed moldings with stuff you never see when u actually run your trains on a layout driving up costs Pull the "limited release" card on top of it and jack up the price some more.
I think they would sell a lot more if they actually brought the prices back to realistic and had more variety available at any one time.
Although I am a hard core Union Pacific fan, I don't think anyone will ever argue the fact that Warbonnet colors outsell all others.
JEREMY CENTANNIPull the "limited release" card on top of it and jack up the price some more.
I think you'd have a very tough time arguing that anything is in continuous production in this hobby. It's simply too small and the need for specialized variations too great. No one keeps a model in continual production. Virtually everything is produced in limited runs. Some sell faster than others. But this has little if anything to do with price, other than providing the opportunity for an update to adjust for cost increases when the next batch is produced.
Finally, if you expect prices for products in a relatively small hobby to fall like computer prices do, which seems to be your point of view of what's "normal," you don't understand the way this market works. Model railroading is a discretionary purchase, has peculiar requirments like prototype accuracy, and is segemented further into a variety of scales. It's likely that most things produced for the hobby are produced in runs of less than 10,000 units. Comparisons to mass-produced items like autos are just a bit nonsensical.
JEREMY CENTANNIAlthough I am a hard core Union Pacific fan, I don't think anyone will ever argue the fact that Warbonnet colors outsell all others.
Maybe in F-units...but I doubt in other locomotives. Except the loco in my profile pic, only white on black at my house - like a classic tuxedo that never goes out of style.
As far as Walther's Super Chief, I think it's really just an issue of "selective compression".
Let's say the Santa Fe or some other real railroad's top passenger train normally had 18 car with an A-B-B-A set of F-units as power. Many of us aren't going to be able to fit that on our layout. We might choose to run a 10 or 12 car train with an A-B-A consist; or even an A-A or A-B lash-up with 6 or 7 cars.
Keep in mind too that not everyone buying the ATSF F-units are going to use them on the Super Chief. Santa Fe ran a number of trains in the 1940's-50's that were shorter trains that normally would only require an A-B set of F's...you wouldn't need 4 F's to haul six passenger cars from Kansas City to Chicago! Could be some folks might want the engines to model a train like that.
I just received the November edition of the Walthers Flyer.
They are still doing the same thing with the F7's as they did before.
They offer Santa Fe F7's as AB sets and also single F7 A units. Combining the two you put together an ABA set.
As I said five months ago that is not protypical for Santa Fe passenger F7's. Santa Fe purchased passenger F7 ABB sets from EMD.
I know Walthers is an outstanding company, and I am surprised they are not being prototypical in this case.
Heartland Division CB&Q I just received the November edition of the Walthers Flyer. They are still doing the same thing with the F7's as they did before. They offer Santa Fe F7's as AB sets and also single F7 A units. Combining the two you put together an ABA set. As I said five months ago that is not protypical for Santa Fe passenger F7's. Santa Fe purchased passenger F7 ABB sets from EMD. I know Walthers is an outstanding company, and I am surprised they are not being prototypical in this case.
This from the ATSF Historical Society:
"The 300 class of F7 passenger locomotives were built concurrently with the 37 class and they were identical in appearance to the 37 class except they were arranged in A-B-B sets instead of A-B-B-A, apparently the only reason they were assigned to a separate class".
Rich
Just another example of the declining selection of product options in this hobby. Order in advance, take what we feel like making, when we get around to having it made, and be happy or not.
When sumbuddy wills five or six millions of smackers to one or more of the importers, maybe somodderbuddy with little business sense will flood the market with stuff and hope it sells.