So I have 16 freight cars pulled by a GG1 (some Bachmann, life like, etc) but all of them have the same coupler height irrespective of the wheel size (36, 33).
Every time I add a freight car it goes on the coupler height test track and if it dont fit it gets changed until it does.
I bought a Center Beam Flat Car with 33" wheels but the couplers were low - I am assuming that a freight car with smaller wheels would have had the couplers higher to match the "standard" height HO scale standard height.
So I popped on a set of intermountain 36" semi-scale wheels and everything worked out fine. So my question is - do locomotives lower their couplers to match cars with smaller wheels ? I don't think so. So why do manufacturers make cars that may have prototypical wheel sizes that do not match the coupler height?
Chris.
Loco Guy - is a state of mind - not an affinity to locomotives.
Sit back and enjoy your track...
Chris,
The NMRA has a coupler height for the center of the knuckle, but there are going to be differences. 33" vs 36" is only a scale 1.5" of height(.016"). You mention Bachmann/Life-Like cars - are these the low-end trainset cars or the Silver or Proto series cars? Your Center Beam car - Who makes it? Most are 100 ton capacity, so they should have 36" wheels.
Once I have the correct trucks/wheels on a car, I usually use the offset shank Kadee coupler that gives me the correct coupler height. Kadee has short/medium/long shank couplers and high/normal/low offsets that should cover just about any application.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I got a Walthers centre beam flat car once. One of the decals on the car said 36" wheels yet the wheels on it were 33". The couplers were low on it as well. Like you found, changing to 36" wheels fixed the problem. Do Walthers even make 36" plastic wheel sets? Could just be a cost cutting measure.
Another pain is Walthers 65' millgon.I tossed the 33" plastic wheels and used metal wheels. The gon moved like a snow sled in the middle of July.
I had to trim the bolster and add a KD washer and that solved the problem.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Athearn certainly never got the coupler height right with their BB offerings. Unlike Jim, I haven't been willing to invest a bunch of money in underset couplers, but I have spent my fair share on the red and gray fibre washers.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
LOCO_GUYSo why do manufacturers make cars that may have prototypical wheel sizes that do not match the coupler height?
doesn't the fact that Kadee makes overset and underset couplers imply that manufacturers are inconsistent?
As Jim mentions, the difference in height between a 33 and 36" wheel is 0.016". But this appears to meet the NMRA standard which has a tolerance of 0.017" (1/58").
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregc doesn't the fact that Kadee makes overset and underset couplers imply that manufacturers are inconsistent?
Rich
Alton Junction
So guys, I have to ask a question related to the thread.
What are the advantages of using the underset couplers vs the Kadee washers? I know that there is a limit as to how many washers can be used, and I have probably exceeded that limit a few times, but is it worth it to spend the money to get rid of the washers and install the offset couplers?
I can definitely see a use for overset shanks where the couplers are too high, but I honestly don't recall ever having come across that situation.
Thanks
I stopped using those fiber washers because the result of using them was "floppy" couplers. The overset and underset couplers, without the use of washers, provides a much more stable setting.
Hi Rich:
I don't think my couplers or my trucks are 'floppy'. I adjust the screws so that one truck has the play taken out of it but still rotates freely. The other truck is a bit looser. Without a layout it is hard to test for tilting cars, but when I put a string of freight cars on my test track they all seem to sit up straight.
If the coupler is droopy I either put a shim on the front of the box or replace the box. I have only had that situation a couple of times.
I guess I'll have to wait until I have some 'real' track in place to test them properly.
Regards
The washers go on the truck kingpin, and not on the couplers. They should not make a coupler be "floppy".
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Dave,
One situation I could see the washers being an issue is if you have a string of cars, say box cars, that should be the same height. Using fibre washers would change the height of the whole car but changing to an underset coupler means only the coupler head changes height. It probably isn't critical but using fibre washers could even push the car height outside the allowable envelope causing it to hit objects above the track.
Dan
hon30critter Athearn certainly never got the coupler height right with their BB offerings. Unlike Jim, I haven't been willing to invest a bunch of money in underset couplers, but I have spent my fair share on the red and gray fibre washers. Dave
Dave,Athearn BB cars took a lot of TLC before building the kit and like you I spent my share of money on KD washers.
How about a 50' gon that was on spot on one end and low on the other even after I straighten the frame and weight?
I won't buy over or undershank couplers since you don't see 'em on the prototype and to my eyes they have always look to toy like...
Plain old #6 flat washers from the hardware store work on all my Athearn blue box cars.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
To each his own, I will take overset and underset couplers over washers any day.
You don't need them often, but when you do, they are the perfect solution to verically aligning couplers. That's why Kadee makes them.
I have been reading this thread and I have to say it nade me think of the differnt styles of couplers I have - the old rolling stock I dusted off resently has the "old" style that came with Bachman then I have purchased Mantua rolling stock/loco's before I moth balled evrything when I relocated to Michigan - I resently resurrected my collection and added to it with "high end" models through all this I have noticed all the differnt types of couplers, I've yet to learn their names and styles and some screw in some have one clip some have two. I see a long road ahead of me trying to make them all conform.....
Freelancing MCRR/NYC Northern Division - Angelo
richhotrainYou don't need them often, but when you do, they are the perfect solution to verically aligning couplers.
But,but,but,Rich,Don't like the challenge of making a #5 or what ever regular coupler work? I enjoy that easy and simple challenge.
To each their own as you say but,naw,I'll pass on those over/undershank couplers..
On cars that have a snap in truck attachment, like Mantua, the off set couplers work for me. recently fixed 12 cars with low couplers by using the undersets. Additional cost was about 35 cents per coupler vs a #5 in a bulk pack
hon30critterWhat are the advantages of using the underset couplers vs the Kadee washers?
Sometimes it is not possible to use washers, like on a locomotive. As mentioned above, Athearn BB couplers tended to be low, even on some locomtives.
If the coupler is high, an overset coupler may fix that problem.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
Brakie, I challenge you, or anybody, to level the front coupler of an 0-8-0T with Kadee washers.
A modeler from Washington (State) persuaded the Edwards brothers to make offset couplers specifically to address the problem of steam loco front coupler height.
As for every coupler lining up perfectly, just take a good, close look at a prototype train. One car may be weight maxed, with its truck springs fully compressed. The next car may be empty, or loaded with ping-pong balls. If my hand was a coupler, that would be a one-finger mismatch.
So, how would I use washers to line up coupler heights on my four-wheel goods wagons? Next question, please. (Actually, MKD#6 couplers work perfectly - good vertical alignment and line up with the original hole meant for Baker couplers.)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
If the difference is small enough to fix with one washer -- either gray (.010") or red (.015") -- I generally rely on the washer. Not always, as sometimes there's other issues at work. If I need two at each bolster, then I start thinking of alternatives. I don't often use the under- or over-set couplers. Sometimes I shim the box, but that's not always possible.
Keep in mind the droop factor. If that's the reason a coupler sits low, then fix that first. Droop will cause you grief, even if the knuckle comes out at the right height.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
tomikawaTT Brakie, I challenge you, or anybody, to level the front coupler of an 0-8-0T with Kadee washers. A modeler from Washington (State) persuaded the Edwards brothers to make offset couplers specifically to address the problem of steam loco front coupler height. As for every coupler lining up perfectly, just take a good, close look at a prototype train. One car may be weight maxed, with its truck springs fully compressed. The next car may be empty, or loaded with ping-pong balls. If my hand was a coupler, that would be a one-finger mismatch. So, how would I use washers to line up coupler heights on my four-wheel goods wagons? Next question, please. (Actually, MKD#6 couplers work perfectly - good vertical alignment and line up with the original hole meant for Baker couplers.) Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I've never believed in redesigning a solution when one is already available. I use the off set couplers on the front of several steamers. I guess I could take the modeling challenge, remove the drivers and turn them down a bit on the lathe, but chose to take a couple of minutes and add an offset instead.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
tomikawaTTBrakie, I challenge you, or anybody, to level the front coupler of an 0-8-0T with Kadee washers.
Chuck,I may not use a washer but,I would find a solution-probably a old school trick from the 50/60s but,still I wouldn't need the over/undershank coupler.
Besides all that I love to tinker around and find workable solutions just like the good/bad(depending on one's views) old days..
I always use the under set or overset KD couplers to match the correct coupler height if needed. Using them is easier than trying to add spacers or file down mounts because they just fit right into the pockets. I have a list of which couplers go on which cars and locos. It's not the KD list, it's my own based on what I actually installed so when I buy a matching model of the same car but different number or road name it can have matching couplers without having to rethink it.
j........
LOCO_GUY So I have 16 freight cars pulled by a GG1 (some Bachmann, life like, etc) but all of them have the same coupler height irrespective of the wheel size (36, 33). Every time I add a freight car it goes on the coupler height test track and if it dont fit it gets changed until it does. I bought a Center Beam Flat Car with 33" wheels but the couplers were low - I am assuming that a freight car with smaller wheels would have had the couplers higher to match the "standard" height HO scale standard height. So I popped on a set of intermountain 36" semi-scale wheels and everything worked out fine. So my question is - do locomotives lower their couplers to match cars with smaller wheels ? I don't think so. So why do manufacturers make cars that may have prototypical wheel sizes that do not match the coupler height?
Respectfully, you're solving the wrong problem.If it's centerbeam car, the prototype almost certainly had 36 inch wheels. I had that problem with my Walthers centerbeams so I did a bit of research. Walthers design department did their job; with proper 36 inch wheels the couplers were dead on. But production didn't talk to design, and somebody said "It's a freight car, 33 inch wheels." They all had 33 inch wheels, and the couplers were all too low.100 ton freight cars should have 36 inch wheels. This includes covered hoppers 2, 3, and 4 bay, some hoppers, most modern tank cars, and many newer gondolas, and even some box cars.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
WOW
So many replies and so much good info - learned a lot.
The cars I have are proto 2000, life-like and Bachmann (mostly from train sets).
The center beam was a Walthers car with the crummy cheap plastic wheel sets.
All is well now though.
Thanks again for all the great feedback - I am a lot wiser today than yesterday :-)
dangailer Dave, One situation I could see the washers being an issue is if you have a string of cars, say box cars, that should be the same height. Using fibre washers would change the height of the whole car but changing to an underset coupler means only the coupler head changes height. It probably isn't critical but using fibre washers could even push the car height outside the allowable envelope causing it to hit objects above the track. Dan
Another example would be replacing a coupler on a locomotive where there isn't a place for the washer.
TheWizardAnother example would be replacing a coupler on a locomotive where there isn't a place for the washer.
We had to do that a lot with brass steam engines. No real problem just different engineering problems to figure out.
Looks like you've spawned a lot of responses. AFAIK, the standard is set NMRA and your friendly neighborhood Kadee height gauge so not sure why it needs to be called into question. Having to tweak couplers is something HO modelers have been faced with for a very long time. Nothing new.
I have a couple of CenterBeam flat car and the couplers were low on it. I used the fibre washer in one case and in an extreme one, offset. Mostly fibre washers in the truck bolster has done the job on kits I've built. With Athearn blue box kits, I've had to bend the coupler box up a bit too in some cases. Like most, I use the Kadee height gauge as my standard and try to make my rolling stock match it. No controversy as the title might imply.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761:
riogrande5761With Athearn blue box kits, I've had to bend the coupler box up a bit too in some cases.
That reminds me of something that I have had to do with a lot of Athearn cars. I had to glue the car frame to the weight, at least on the ends where the coupler pockets are. I discovered fairly early on that, if the couplers were really low, in lots of cases it was because the coupler pockets were not sitting up tight against the weights. The whole coupler pocket was sagging. You can't rely on the truck screws to keep the frame in place, particularly since the truck screws have to be loose to allow the trucks to pivot. I'm sure others have had to deal with this too.
The alternative to gluing is to drill and tap a hole right through the coupler box, the weight, and the car floor where the coupler box pivot post is. Then use a screw to hold the coupler box together and keep it tight to the weight. If I recall correctly, some cars like cabooses came like that.