Below-rails coal dump pit

[JimT]

Hi again folks,

Another question re: my Cobleskill Coal Co. build. Heading down the home stretch, I'm getting ready to finish painting the conveyor housing and maintenance platform assembly for the conveyor tower, and am starting to look ahead to the installation of the structure onto the layout. I would like to model the below-grade dump pit for the coal in some fashion.

Here's what I have so far: a photo of a similar dump pit that was used for grain loading (the only prototype photo I have found in a lot of searching!). Another diagram of a modern, below-grade dump pit for trucks, with modern auger depicted. Third, a low-res diagram of the conveyor machinery from a railroad coal tower. (On edit: added the prototype photo of the coal dealer in Cobleskill NY.)

Does anyone have any better photos of a coal dump pit, or better quality diagrams? I know I could probably just model the pit as covered when not in use, but if I knew what the pit dimensions were, I'd love to model the pit and the auger as well. Worse comes to worse I can mimic what is in the modern dump pit diagram.

Any resources that anyone knows about? thanks in advance.

Jim

[doctorwayne]

While I can understand your desire to model the dump pit and its machinery, I didn't bother for mine.
I have four coal dealers elevators somewhat similar to yours, all much simpler, and all scratchbuilt to a common plan (they're owned by the same company).  Mine are so simple that three of them don't even have the delivery chutes modelled because it's not possible to see that side of them.  The fourth has the chutes only in an attempt to offer some variety.
Here's the basic version:

...and the one with delivery chutes:

...but they all have the same style dump pits, with removeable plate steel covers:

A fifth operation, a competitor, is quite different and larger, as it serves a more metropolitan area:

I plan to add another in the city at the north end of the line, and it will be a larger one, although of a different design.  Haven't decided yet who'll be running it.

Wayne

 

[MisterBeasley]

Thanks to the trains I had as a teenager, I've still got an old coal loader, a bunch of Tyco/Mantua operating clamshell hoppers and even the actuator track to dump the coal.  So, I built both operating loading and unloading facilities.

This is the old Vollmer loader, which operates by opening the chute doors with solenoids mounted inside.

I chose to model an open trestle with a pile of coal beneath it.

This is the mechanical actuator that sits between the rails on the trestle.  When a hopper passes over it, the clamshell doors open and the coal drops through the center.

The pile of coal seen in the second picture is actually more like a volcanic cone.  It has a hole in the center, and coal falling from the hopper goes through the crater into a waiting box below the layout.  The box may then be removed and hand-carried back to the loader for re-use.

Here's the completed scene.

[G Paine]

Railroad Model Craftsman had an article in February 2009 "Cobleskill Coal Co". If I remember correctly, it had prototype photos including the coal dump. Check with customer service, they may have reprints available

http://www.rrmodelcraftsman.com/

[gmpullman]

Hi, Jim

Several of my Walthers Cornerstone kits came with hoppers that could be mounted beneath the rails. They had grates that measured about 10' x 15' and had grooves for the rail to be glued in.

These, along with the Walthers conveyors, kitbashed/modified, would make a pretty convincing coal dump.

https://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-3520

I have several of the grates and hoppers I'd be glad to send you if you can use them.

There's also some kitbash possibilities in this package as well:

https://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-3519

 

Regards, Ed

[SouthPenn]

Ash pit at the EBT.

It is cleaned by hand with a shovel.

[JimT]

thanks guys, I appreciate the ideas. Wayne, those are great photos of your coal dealers, and the closed grated cover is pretty much my backup plan. But I'd like to model the pit, and maybe the auger head. Ed, I would take you up on that generous offer if you've got a set to give away, I don't need the conveyor so much as the hopper and the top plate where the rails go. I'll pm you about that, so thanks. Mr. Beasley, if I were more ambitious I would try for an operating dump--but I'm not that ambitious. And George, appreciate the heads up on the article in RMC, I checked ebay, doesn't seem to be a copy of that issue at the moment, that's generally what I do in these cases, but I'll drop the new publisher an email and see if they can send me a pdf.

Fun stuff to think about. If anybody else has any options/thoughts, would still love to hear them!

Jim

[mbinsewi]

Jim,

I also understand your wanting to model the coal dump. 

I would take a track "hatch" like Doc Wayne shows, modify it to handle 2 or 3 bay hoppers, what ever works for your time period, and take "modelers license", and make a below grade "concrete chute" with a steep bottom, that would direct the coal to the vertical bucket type conveyor that hoisted the coal to the second floor, and the coal bins. 

If you Google "Cobleskill Coal Co.", look at "Images", you'll find a web site with some limited interior photos of the buildings interior coal bins.  I didn't save the link, but you'll find it.

Good luck with your build!  I hope you show some pics for all of us to see!

Mike.

[mlehman]

mbinsewi

make a below grade "concrete chute" with a steep bottom, that would direct the coal to the vertical bucket type conveyor that hoisted the coal to the second floor, and the coal bins.

Mike's got a good point here with the verticle bucket, grain-leg type elevator for coal. A facility with an augur would be pretty modern and generally handle only smaller size grades of coal. So the time frame you have in mind makes some difference.

The types of coal cars matters some, too. Depending on number of bays in a more or less standard hopper car you get more coal coming out at certain points than at others. And the size of the overall facility matters. If it's a single small pit where the car has to be moved several times before it's fully unloaded, there can't be dozens of cars of coal being unloaded everyday, just one or two.

[mbinsewi]

When you look at the pictures of the building, the metal tower structure that housed the vertical bucket conveyor, is clear.  Just need a concrete "funnel" under the tracks to feed it.

Who knows what the original pit looked like, as it was probably filled in years ago for saftey reasons.

Mike.

[JimT]

Thanks for the responses, you guys inspired me to do a bit of reading on bucket elevators and other devices for moving coal. Found an excellent resource online, the Material Handling Cyclopedia, published in 1921. The full text is available at Google books, lots of photos, diagrams, and illustrations.

There is an ad at the back of the volume for the Link Belt Company, which apparently specialized in this type of machinery for coal dealers and others, their diagram shows the below-rail hopper and a reciprocating feeder apparatus that funnels the product to the bucket conveyor. I'll include that photo here.

There's also a section on screw conveyors, which suggests that it is possible a screw-type auger might have been used in this situation.

Will have to spend some more time reading up on all this, very interesting stuff!

Jim

[mlehman]

Note what is said about the use of augurs for coal, indicating this app was primarily for crushed coal with a diameter of 1" or less. If that works for a specific app you have in mind, then that may be exactly what you want. For a general coal dealers or as a supply for locomotives, you'd want bigger coal, which is why the belt systems were so widespread.

From what I can recall about home heating (my grandpa was a coal miner) lump coal was loaded into the auto-stoker. It had an augur arrangement that pushed the coal into the furnace which also broke up the lump coal to smaller pieces to burn better. This was at the last step of the process. IIRC, he bought mine run coal "home from work" although most people would buy a certain grade of coal to do this instead.

The stokers on steam locos operated similarly, with the augur at the end of the coal handling process. Before that, bigger chunks of coal were easier to move with the equipment typically used during that era. If the coal was subject to rain or snow, the bigger chunks were also less likely to freeze up than smaller stuff tended to be.

[JimT]

mlehman

Note what is said about the use of augurs for coal, indicating this app was primarily for crushed coal with a diameter of 1" or less. If that works for a specific app you have in mind, then that may be exactly what you want. For a general coal dealers or as a supply for locomotives, you'd want bigger coal, which is why the belt systems were so widespread.

From what I can recall about home heating (my grandpa was a coal miner) lump coal was loaded into the auto-stoker. It had an augur arrangement that pushed the coal into the furnace which also broke up the lump coal to smaller pieces to burn better. This was at the last step of the process. IIRC, he bought mine run coal "home from work" although most people would buy a certain grade of coal to do this instead.

The stokers on steam locos operated similarly, with the augur at the end of the coal handling process. Before that, bigger chunks of coal were easier to move with the equipment typically used during that era. If the coal was subject to rain or snow, the bigger chunks were also less likely to freeze up than smaller stuff tended to be.

great point, my suspicion is that a dealer of this size would offer a variety of grades and sizes of coal. So the reciprocating feeder mechanism is far more likely in this kind of application I would think.

Nice summary of coal sizing and grades for anthracite is online here.

Now, how would you go about modeling the reciprocating feeder?? 

[mlehman]

JimT

Now, how would you go about modeling the reciprocating feeder?? LaughLaugh

That's the easy part. Put it inside where no one can see it. The design of the building merely need reflect that the appropriate equipment exists inside -- the imagination does the rest...although with all the cool sound effects available now, maybe one that simulates the buckets running in the Link-Belt lift would really drive home what seems to be hard at work inside

[JimT]

mlehman

JimT

Now, how would you go about modeling the reciprocating feeder?? LaughLaugh

 

 

That's the easy part. Put it inside where no one can see it. The design of the building merely need reflect that the appropriate equipment exists inside -- the imagination does the rest...although with all the cool sound effects available now, maybe one that simulates the buckets running in the Link-Belt lift would really drive home what seems to be hard at work inside

NOW you're talking.   I could just play the sound file from this video on an endless loop.

 

[JimT]

who knew this would be so interesting to research? that book linked above has an entire section devoted to coal storage and handling facilities, from power plants to locomotive coaling towers to retail coal dealers. I highly recommend it.

But here's a cutaway drawing of a retail coal dealer, showing a simple gravity feed chute to the bottom of the bucket elevator. (There's almost a full page of text describing this operation.) So that's probably what was happening here at this site.

cool stuff!

[mbinsewi]

I also believe, right from start of your thread, what was going on here.  It's clear in the photos on the building, the steel enclosed tower holding the bucket conveyor.

I would also bet that there wasn't any conveyor system at the top of the conveyor, or building, to move the coal to a bin  I'd bet that a chute at the top of the conveyor was positioned to match to a chute that filled the individual bins, and was positioned by hand.

Mike.

[hon30critter]

Jim

That is "cool stuff!".

I have to say thanks for posting the illustration of the gravity feed for the coal elevator. I have a Walthers coaling tower which I have kit bashed and detailed a bit but I have never been able to figure out how to get the coal from the hopper dump pits to the elevators. I thought about modifying some portable coal conveyers but they seemed that they would be too slow to move enough coal to empty the hopper cars in a timely manner. The gravity feed makes more sense and will fit better in the space available between the dump track and the tower.

Thanks

Dave