See some MTH F-3's on sale, have no experience with MTH. I know it has their own control system in addition to DCC. Appreciate some feedback. Edit; I'm in HO
Yes. Here's a recent disucussion on MTH F untis.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/253340.aspx
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
O scale/guage, yes, they have an excellent line of 3 rail equipment. If you want 2 rail you can convert some of their locomotives and rolling stock. Get the Premier line stuff.
Note: I own a whole bunch of O guage MTH equipment, but for HO, stear clear of their locomotives unless you are going to run MTH only.
If HO scale: No. Main reason: Things that were said to NMRA members and developers of new standards by MTH representatives at the 2015 NTS. MTH has lost me personally as a customer permanently.
They have a proprietary system which is not really compatable with DCC and they try to make their decoders dual mode. If you want all of the DCS features you have to buy their system, for which they dont sell spare decoders so you can't convert other locomotives. Save yourself the headache. If you are going to buy locomotives with digital command already installed, stick with a manufacturer that uses a DCC decoder.
As Andrew said, MTH has an, "Everybody's out of step but us," attitude on control systems.
Beware of any proprietary (only one supplier) item. The manufacturer might go belly-up, or just decide to discontinue the line - or the one item YOU need.
As for me, if MTH goes out of its collective mind and offers a plain DC Japanese locomotive that fits my master plan in 1:80 (HOj) scale, I'll buy it. Until then, they thoroughly disinterest me.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
LIONS do not buy locomotives. LION buys Subway Trains, and for the moment MTH is the only game in town. OK, they have not delivered yet but what they have looks ok. I will buy them without DCx, but I have noqualms at all of tearing everytihing out and putting my own motors in there.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
HO passenger cars? - Yes! Locomotives? While they do run well, the DCS decoders give you limited access if you like tweaking CVs. If all you do is "plop it down and run" then they will probably be fine for you. Also, detailing is generally good but may not be quite as nice as other manufacturers.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstageHO passenger cars? - Yes! Locomotives? While they do run well, the DCS decoders give you limited access if you like tweaking CVs.
Ditto, what Tom said.
I own one MTH locomotive, the Empire State Express streamlined Hudson. I bought it for two reasons: 1) other than AHM/Rivarossi or brass the MTH is the only one available; 2) it was a Trainworld closeout at about half price!
As previously mentioned, detail is lacking. The spring suspension is spongy and seems to derail more frequently than it should. But the main frustration is the DCS decoder and my attempts in trying to program a few simple CVs. I've tried with Decoder Pro and Digitrax DT402 throttles both in ops mode (POM) and the program track.
It will not keep the address I assign to it, it reverts to address 3. A few weeks ago it took a trip to the concrete floor because I was testing another locomotive at the default address 3. Unbeknownst to me, the MTH engine was also running on the other side of the layout, out of view. ...then I heard the crash!
Fortunately, damage was confined to the front cowling which I repaired satisfsactorily. Earlier that day I was running the loco on its assigned address of 5426 so how did it go back to 3?
Anyway, no more MTH for me.
Since you are looking for an EMD F3 there are lots of other choices out there.
My first choice would be Intermountain, then Athearn Genesis (you'll have to replace the headlights, eventually) or Broadway Limited, then Walthers.
Good Luck, Ed
If you are using DCC, save your money, get either Intermountain or Athearn Genesis, they have more detail on their F units than MTH. If you are looking for cheaper, with fewer details, Bachmann.
Due to aforementioned issues with MTH attitude, I flat out dislike them. Due to running issues caused directly by their refusing to adopt control standards set by the NMRA, I refuse to buy their HO scale offerings.
And, this is coming from someone who has nearby a LHS that is nothing but trains, from N-O, including a huge selection of MTH. Even the owner says MTH is great in O, lacking in HO.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
I don't like the way MTH does business. They've been known to employ shills on this very forum. They sue (or threaten to sue) people at the drop of a hat. They make things up in their advertising (like that whole thing about NMRA DC analong control Standards changing to 16vdc...which was not actually the case).
That being said, they did stop UP and their licensing nonsense with their cadre of lawyers, so props for that.
I don't like the way MTH makes models. Their handrails are hokey with the vertical stanchions flopping around like an old Athearn BB. Their ditchlights are enourmous. Their detail is lacking. They have the largest gaps between the cab and the trailing truck of any steam engine this side of Tyco. Their stainless steel cars have crooked nameboards on them. Their paint schemes are warped to fit the model they make, regardless of the accuracy.
I don't like their DCS-equipped locos. Changing the address can be a chore, let alone trying to do anything advanced. I feel they are lacking basic interchange ability with DCC locos. I dislike their opening S-scale couplers, but at least they can be replaced with Kadees. That being said, they do run and pull well once you get them set up.
I don't like MTH's product choices. They routinely paint up locos in paint schemes that never had them.
There's a reason why in my club's loco roster of almost 1600 engines, just 4 of them are MTH.
Paul A. Cutler III
Thanks for the imput, think I'll pass on the F-3's
Well....call MTH spanked. So far, they're the only manufacturer I know, except for brass, that is offering a new 2-8-8-4 Yellowstone in HO (Yes, I rmember that Bachmann has their B&O version, but it's not a "Yellowstone", as in it's not the DM&IR Yellowstone. Heck, two companies produce a Cab Forward in HO, and that's a "Yellowstone-in-reverse", but it's not THE Yellowstone.) I hear their rolling stock is top notch, or at least on par with the best of the more mainstream HO suppliers. I hear they squandered their BLI/Korea 4-8-8-4 Big Boy acquisition four years ago. They produced it, and it should have been as good as BLI's PCM brand's early 2000's version, but somehow they mucked it up and people screamed in anger all over the various forums. That one was a head-shaker.
BLI is about to bring their second stab to market, and this time you can bet your last nickel they'll own the rights to the tooling. Fool them once..... I was never strong on the Big Boy, being a big fan of the more svelte Challenger, but I think I might just be in the market this time.
For me, it was that goofy front articulation on MTH's Union Pacific 4-12-2. I felt right then that their head and heart were in the O Gauge world with their very tight curves. HO was beyond their reach in terms of what the Scots would say was 'ken'. Trouble is, I think they sold a hockey sock full of that model. Maybe they knew something more about the HO world than I did. Could be....
I would say MTH ho is not bad at all I got a few and compared to BLI the mth is a hairline ahead of BLI. First I like the crew chatter on MTH loco that automatic unlike my BLI ones that I need to select a function. The Second thing on my MTH electrics the pantograph automatically goes up and down with change of direction which the BLI one does not. Last thing I say is BLI I have send afew back to lhs or manufacturer due to issues and I have yet sent any mth back yet.
The only experience I have with MTH is the "O" scale, "Rugged Rails" products. I bought a set, and expanded it for my grandson. No other loco other than MTH runs with all it's functions. K-Line and Williams products run with limited functions, and I have not tried Lionel. From what others have said on forums, I wouldn't buy any of the HO scale products. I asked them about their incompatibilty with DCC on their web site, and they encourged me to buy their product, because it is totally compatable with DCC. So I stay away.
Just my experience.
mike
My You Tube
I have a J, and I like it. It's never given me any issues. The DCS nonsense doesn't bother me as I'm one of those people who likes to "plop it on the tracks and run it", and it runs very well.
The way I see it, the features locked behind DCS are no different than the features locked behind the Paragon 3 system BLI offers.
I have 9 MTH steam engines and they look and run very well, no problems here. I just started to buy some modern diesels, I bought the new ES44Ac and was blown away by the detail, sound, smoothness, paint, etc. They all run on DCC,DC or dcs with no problems.
I don't concern myself on what has happened in the past. Try one, if you like it buy more, if not pass on them. But don't listen to the people who seem to have gripe against MTH.
I will stay away from issues of business practices and such, enough has been said about MTH in that regard.
That said, asa DC operator who runs on the NMRA STANDARD 12 volts, I will never buy an MTH loco because they require 16 volts to operate at reasonable top speeds.
But for me the even bigger issue is the toy like oversized detail on many of their models. They would rather make a boiler in die cast metal with over sized running boards and such, because it suits the needs of their customer base.
No doubt all sorts of modelers might and do buy their products - BUT - they are targeting a specific kind of modeler with their products and their control system.
I want to say this as politely as I can, because I do believe everyone should enjoy this hobby however they like. MTH is interested in creating/promoting/developing a version of the HO model train hobby similar to their O gauge market.
People who are collectors of nice "toys", people who are potentially one brand loyal, people with little interest in building model trains who's primary interest is the casual building of a layout, and the casual running/displaying and collecting the random selection of products they decide to offer.
That is not the hobby I am in - so I'm not interested.
Example - MTH made a NKP Berkshire - only one version, then they painted it PM, C&O, etc. Bachmann made a Berkshire, not perfect, but with road specific details for NKP, PM and C&O. The Bachmann model was offered with DCC and DC options, sound, no sound, etc. The Bachmann model is 2/3rds the price of the MTH model.
The MTH model has thick heavy crude details in its die cast boiler, the Bachmann model has a finely detailed plastic boiler with many applied details.
Someone earlier mentioned "crew chatter" - a fine example of aspects of the hobby MTH is trying to promote - aspects I will never be interested in.....
I don't run any sound or decoder equiped locos, MTH has offered only a few DC models. I'm not paying MTH prices to then gut them of all their proprietary electronic junk I don't want.
Sheldon
PS - I don't buy much BLI stuff for similar reasons - unless the price is really right, then I remove the decoders..........
floridaflyerEdit; I'm in HO
Oh yeah? You must be able to jump from key to key to make that computer work. How do you manage to put paper in your printer. I have a little stuffed LION only four inches long, that is way bigger than HO, and he still cannot work the keyboard.
My trains are in HO, but I am in 1:1, and so are my controls...
Yes, I know that the OP has already made his choice.
But Just to give a little variety to the replies, I will vote for the other side
I have 2 MTH HO locos. A 2-8-2 and a F7. When I was leaning toward not buying the F7, a MTH rep said that you can program everything with DCC now. He said the newest locos with the product ID with a -1 at the end can now do so. And he was right! My 2-8-2, an older model, is unprogrammable with address 3, but my F7 is address 39 because you can program the loco.
Their locos have decent detailing... Yes, I know, not enough.
Some of their details are oversized, like the handrails and ditchlights as said. But as long as you buy the streamlined car body type diesels like alco PA, F7, F3, etc, your all good
Paint is great, there is the "Stainless steel finish" on my F7.
I've heard product support isn't great, and I agree with that.
Overall, I think that MTH products are great, their attitude, on the other hand, not really.
EDITED: I know this will get a lot of criticism, so before you guys start, I'm going to say: yes, I agree, MTH is bad, but you always need to see(consider) both sides of the argument in order to make a good decision. And so I'm just trying to even out the sides a little.
Hope you see what I mean.
Charles
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
Instagram (where I share projects!): https://www.instagram.com/trainman440
Trainman440 Yes, I know that the OP has already made his choice. But Just to give a little variety to the replies, I will vote for the other side I have 2 MTH HO locos. A 2-8-2 (For under $150!!!) and a F7. When I was leaning toward not buying the F7, a MTH rep said that you can program everything with DCC now. He said the newest locos with the product ID with a -1 at the end can now do so. And he was right! My 2-8-2, an older model, is unprogrammable with address 3, but my F7 is address 39 because you can program the loco. Their locos have decent detailing... Yes, not too good. Some of their details are oversized, like the handrails and ditchlights as said. But as long as you buy the streamlined car body type diesels like alco PA, F7, F3, etc, your all good Paint is great, there is the "Stainless steel finish" on my F7. I've heard product support isn't great, and I agree with that. Overall, I think that MTH products are great, their attitude, on the other hand, not really. I know this will be controversial Charles
I have 2 MTH HO locos. A 2-8-2 (For under $150!!!) and a F7. When I was leaning toward not buying the F7, a MTH rep said that you can program everything with DCC now. He said the newest locos with the product ID with a -1 at the end can now do so. And he was right! My 2-8-2, an older model, is unprogrammable with address 3, but my F7 is address 39 because you can program the loco.
Their locos have decent detailing... Yes, not too good.
I know this will be controversial
Charles, no controversy here, if they meet your needs, that's great. And you realize that getting a MTH 2-8-2 for $150 is a deal that no one other than MTH made any money on.........
If dealers/retailers don't make money, they can't supply us.......
Yes, they have fixed the DCC issues - but not the DC voltage issues.....
And they did try to lie about NMRA Standards and Recommended Practices regarding that issue years ago........
If you are happy with less detail in favor of a more "durable when handled" model, MTH and Marklin are for you........not for me.
Glad you are happy, glad you got a good deal.
Trainman440 I have 2 MTH HO locos. A 2-8-2 (For under $150!!!) and a F7. When I was leaning toward not buying the F7, a MTH rep said that you can program everything with DCC now. He said the newest locos with the product ID with a -1 at the end can now do so. And he was right! My 2-8-2, an older model, is unprogrammable with address 3, but my F7 is address 39 because you can program the loco. Charles
You mentioned that you can be need now program the DCC address, but, what about custom speed tables?
Function remapping?
And, big question, even if these can be programmed, part of opening up full DCC capabilities, which is only a small part of what they need to do, does it hit full speed by speed step 128, on only 12V?
So, to sum up my requirements for MTH to become respectable in HO scale:
Customizable speed tables.
Function remapping.
12V motor control instead of 16V (which, might need upwards of 18V counting electronics).
Until these issues are fixed, I will not consider MTH locomotives in HO scale.
This does not even address attitude and business issues already mentioned....
ricktrains4824 You mentioned that you can be need now program the DCC address, but, what about custom speed tables? Function remapping? And, big question, even if these can be programmed, part of opening up full DCC capabilities, which is only a small part of what they need to do, does it hit full speed by speed step 128, on only 12V? So, to sum up my requirements for MTH to become respectable in HO scale: Customizable speed tables. Function remapping. 12V motor control instead of 16V (which, might need upwards of 18V counting electronics). Until these issues are fixed, I will not consider MTH locomotives in HO scale. This does not even address attitude and business issues already mentioned....
Well, I asked for no criticism, but here we go!
I did some research on this, and yes, there is function mapping, and custom speed tables(never knew this until now because I don't like messing with my decoders), at least for my F7, I could check for other models if you want. I run my MTH F7 with my Athearn genesis F7(I couldn't find a second Athearn unit on Ebay) and I just checked, the MTH unit runs slightly faster than my Athearn at higher speeds.
http://mthtrains.com/sites/default/files/download/instruction/80dl11365i.pdf
^^^^Thats where I did my research
(Gosh, I should said tthis in the front) Again, Im NOT saying that MTH is better in any means, just saying that in order to make a choice, I like to consider both sides, and this whole thread is about how MTH is horrible, so I wanted to add the opposite side to make it a tad bit more even.
This post is to prove that MTH HAS indeed updated their decoders, so it is a little more DCC friendly.
Just wanted to reply, because a few things I think are unclear...I also edited my original post to clear up some confusion.
"...And you realize that getting a MTH 2-8-2 for $150 is a deal that no one other than MTH made any money on........." - Yes I know, and that is the same for every other manufacturer.
"If dealers/retailers don't make money, they can't supply us......." - Right. I want to point out that I bought it off of Ebay, broken, and sold as restoration required(Broken draw bar), from a small seller.
"Yes, they have fixed the DCC issues - but not the DC voltage issues....." - Yes.
"And they did try to lie about NMRA Standards and Recommended Practices regarding that issue years ago........" - I never said that they didn't. I did say that they have a bad attitude.
"If you are happy with less detail in favor of a more 'durable when handled' model, MTH and Marklin are for you........not for me." - Again, I never said that.
I happened on this because of a post on MTH F3A's. Several times people commented about DC standard being limited to 12 volts. That was changed in the 1970 or 80's. I regularly measure my Tech II power supplies at 17+ volts DC. I see the same from other power supplies of that same vintage. That is one of the issues with DCC, the rectified DC voltage at the track level is 13.8 volts from my NCE supply. That is a fair amount of power lost just getting in the door.
I see a number of MTH units. To me they they are competitive with other modern releases. In general, manufacturers tend to put features and controls in that they think have the most appeal. Often these turn out to be limiting. In that case, the modeler has two choices; first, replace the limiting electronics. The drive and motors are fundamentally DC and will work great with the latest and greatest DCC decoder. The second option is to get rid of the disappointing model and get one that satisfies more of your desires.
So many trains, so little time,
Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com
ggnlars I happened on this because of a post on MTH F3A's. Several times people commented about DC standard being limited to 12 volts. That was changed in the 1970 or 80's. I regularly measure my Tech II power supplies at 17+ volts DC. I see the same from other power supplies of that same vintage. That is one of the issues with DCC, the rectified DC voltage at the track level is 13.8 volts from my NCE supply. That is a fair amount of power lost just getting in the door. I see a number of MTH units. To me they they are competitive with other modern releases. In general, manufacturers tend to put features and controls in that they think have the most appeal. Often these turn out to be limiting. In that case, the modeler has two choices; first, replace the limiting electronics. The drive and motors are fundamentally DC and will work great with the latest and greatest DCC decoder. The second option is to get rid of the disappointing model and get one that satisfies more of your desires.
The NMRA Standards and RP's never "limited" the voltage to 12 volts. What it said was that the locomotive should reach a reasonable top speed at 12 volts delivered to the rails.
This is where MTH fails - even if you rip out the electronics - their motors require higher voltages than others in the industry, making them slow in any kind DC operation that is compatable with other DC equipment.
I still run DC, with Aristo wireless throttles. My power supplies are regulated 13.8 volts. ALL my locos, even DCC locos from BLI, run fine after removing the DCC electronics - not so with MTH.
The slow DC running is well documented in a number MR product reviews of MTH products.
13.8 volts provides nearly perfect top scale speeds with most everything made in the last 25 years or longer - except MTH......
The NMRA Standard S-9 allows higher voltages and sets 12 volts as the minimum full throttle voltage, but RP-9, III, A states that 12 volts should provide a speed within 25% of the scale top speed - MTH fails in most cases.
Additionally, power packs without regulated power suppies will read higher voltages at no load. Take that MRC power pack, load it to the rated amp output, then measure the voltage - bet it's more like 13-14 volts.....
I understand the difference between load and no load measurements. The measurements I'm talking about are all done under load.
When your talking about speed, are you talking about engne only or with a specifc train load? In my tests, I highlight the 12 volt speed engne only. In that case, a number of recent releases do not measure up to the norm. MTH units I have tested are near 80 SMPH. Missing that by 25% would say 60 SMPH is acceptable.
I will say that I find that all of these motors have a magnetic flux variation that shows up in the torque and speed(rpm) voltage functions. My data base is not statistically large enough on MTH to know how they vary. As indicated above, the ones tested are at or above the goal. Other recent releases do show large variations over a statistically significant sample size.
DC runnng in most product reviews come with the manufacturers electronics in place. The electronics has been put there for a purpose. However the result of those electronics is a voltage loss to the motor. This loss also varies between electronics, but it is a big draw on performance. For my tests, I attempt to identify the impact of the electronics. It can be the equilivant to a 1.5 voltage loss at 12 volts on the supply.
ggnlars I understand the difference between load and no load measurements. The measurements I'm talking about are all done under load. When your talking about speed, are you talking about engne only or with a specifc train load? In my tests, I highlight the 12 volt speed engne only. In that case, a number of recent releases do not measure up to the norm. MTH units I have tested are near 80 SMPH. Missing that by 25% would say 60 SMPH is acceptable. I will say that I find that all of these motors have a magnetic flux variation that shows up in the torque and speed(rpm) voltage functions. My data base is not statistically large enough on MTH to know how they vary. As indicated above, the ones tested are at or above the goal. Other recent releases do show large variations over a statistically significant sample size. DC runnng in most product reviews come with the manufacturers electronics in place. The electronics has been put there for a purpose. However the result of those electronics is a voltage loss to the motor. This loss also varies between electronics, but it is a big draw on performance. For my tests, I attempt to identify the impact of the electronics. It can be the equilivant to a 1.5 voltage loss at 12 volts on the supply.
Any way you break it down, MTH is not DC friendly, that rules them out for me. I'm not paying the kind of money they charge to then have to gut the electronics.
MTH has gotten better with DCC compatiblity, but early models did have higher voltage motors which made all the issues worse.
Complaints seem to be rather common about product problems and slow customer service.
And another issue for me is the poor, oversized or generic detail on many models. For them "toy train" "durabilty" is more important than scale detail. Just one example - MTH Berkshire, the Bachmann Berkshire is twice the model at half the price - and with the 30 second swap of a plug for the decoder it runs perfectly on DC........
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And another issue for me is the poor, oversized or generic detail on many models. For them "toy train" "durabilty" is more important than scale detail.
And another issue for me is the poor, oversized or generic detail on many models. For them "toy train" "durabilty" is more important than scale detail.
Sheldon,
I mentioned this earlier in the thread. My only experience with owning MTH product is their passenger cars - in particular, their '40 20th Century Limited (TCL) versions that they brought out back in early 2013. While they aren't perfect I thought they did an excellent job with the details and their LED modules for the interior lighting are just terrific:
I had a friend of mine bring over his Empire State Express locomotive. It ran very smoothly (slightly better than my BLI TCL Hudson) but the detailing wasn't quite as nice.
While I don't have a desire for owning a MTH locomotive at this point, I would take some additional '40 TCL cars (e.g. another diner and a 4-4-2 sleeper), if they offered them. I'm still looking for one of the two 2-car sets, which are as rare as hen's teeth these days.
tstage ATLANTIC CENTRAL And another issue for me is the poor, oversized or generic detail on many models. For them "toy train" "durabilty" is more important than scale detail. Sheldon, I mentioned this earlier in the thread. My only experience with owning MTH product is their passenger cars - in particular, their '40 20th Century Limited (TCL) versions that they brought out back in early 2013. While they aren't perfect I thought they did an excellent job with the details and their LED modules for the interior lighting are just terrific: I had a friend of mine bring over his Empire State Express locomotive. It ran very smoothly (slightly better than my BLI TCL Hudson) but the detailing wasn't quite as nice. While I don't have a desire for owning a MTH locomotive at this point, I would take some additional '40 TCL cars (e.g. another diner and a 4-4-2 sleeper), if they offered them. I'm still looking for one of the two 2-car sets, which are as rare as hen's teeth these days. Tom
Tom, I was refering mainly to the die cast steam locos which seem to give up detail for "Lionel" ease of handling. Much of the rolling stock seems nice, I have one box car, it's fine, even if it was a little pricey for the detail level.
Passenger cars, yes. They're the best passenger cars I own. They run well, are detailed (but the details don't pop off) and are easy to repair.
Steam engines: Mayyybe. If you get a good one, and just want to run it (ex: N&W J class) they're fine. Even the early runs with poor DCC compatibility can toot the whistle or ring the bell and toggle the aux lights just fine.
IMO, the problem is when you get a "problem child" engine. Their support is non-existant. When I emailed Rapido, I emailed them, went to a meeting, and had an email waiting for me when I got out (where they offered above and beyond what I was expecting). When I email MTH, I'm lucky if they respond within the month. Warranty repairs via RMA take around 6 months.
Having said all that, their rolling stock - passenger and freight - is perfectly fine, and their support - when they do finally get around to answering - is willing to go beyond e.g. Athearn to help. Just, uh, try to never need it.