I just noticed this today while running some trains and it actually happened in two places but this is the worst one. I did notice that in both places the latex caulk was very thin and may have contributed to it's movement. The train room has a small electric heater in it to keep the temps up during the winter as the house heat vents don't seem to be adequate in this room. I don't know when this expansion occured so I''m not sure what caused it, the heater or the summer temps.
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
Your track didn't expand - the wood contracted, mostly from the low humidity drying it out. The added heat only makes it worse - warmer air can hold more moisture for the same relative humidity.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
That is not a bad kink, we have has worse ones on the Boothbay layout. Always on track that has been laid down with caulk in the spring to fall, and not ballasted. Low humidity during the winter in a heated building bring them out.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
A solid length of Code 100 N/S track 100' long will expand its length by only 0.25" (1/4") with a rise of 30 degrees F. Three smallish gaps spaced out will take care of that over 100'.
It could be that heat has caused some of the problem, but my bet, as Randy has suggested, is that at least 70% of the problem can be attributed to shrinking grains in the wood substrata under the ties. With a decent grip by adhesives or track nails preventing slippage, the shrinking wood forces the ties together, with their webbing connecting them, and eventually they have to slip sideways. Had it happen to me.
So- if you have already fixed cork roadbed to a plywood surface, and that wood surface has been otherwise undisturbed in a garage environment for at least a year of moderate temperature changes (florida), can you start fixing track - flex, sectional, and switches without worrying about subsequent track kinking, or are further precautionary procedures needed to avoid this problem?
Cedarwoodron
Before I controlled the humidity in my layout environment, I had the occasional track kink pop up. Since getting control of that issue, no problems have occured. The temperature swings have remained unchanged with no ill effects. Sub-roadbed is unpainted 1/2 plywood on a 1x4 frame. Track is code 100 flex with all joints soldered. Temp swing is 60 degrees to 90 deg. Humidity level is maintained between approx 30% and 50%.
What this tells me is that humidity is the main, if not, only factor that really matters since the temperature never did vary more than 30 deg. Before getting control of the moisture, I had expansion and contraction problems regardless of the temp.
Charlie
I had that happen once, but only once, in my 12 years into the hobby. No idea what caused it, but I had to remove the section of flex track, trim the ends of the two rails, and reconnect the section of flex track.
My track is mounted on Woodland Scenics foam road bed laid on top of 1/2" plywood. I am not sure that I buy the plywood contraction issue. My guess is that I, and you, connected the sections of flex track too closely and too tightly.
Rich
Alton Junction
Thanks guys, I think Randy (and others) is probably right about the humidity. I have a connected basement below the train room with open passage ways (no doors) and there is a dehumidifier in the basement. When I first built this addition I had a terrible moisture problem in the basement, up to 1" of water on the floor, so I installed the dehumidifer and no problem down there since.
Thinking about temperature variations in the trainroom: I don't think it ever varies more than 20-30 degrees from winter to summer, so that probably isn't the problem as you all pointed out.
I will put a gap in the rails where this occured and leave the rail jointers unsoldered. I actually push the track back into place and it looks like it would go back without cutting a gap; but I won't do that. This did happen at another location last year and I just pushed the rail/track back into place and anchored it with new caulk; so far it hasn't happened there again. It just never occured to me that lack of moisture could cause this! You learn something new every day. Thanks again for the help.
The trouble is the plywood, period. Even when you install it on a building or floor you need gaps. The rail dosn't expand enough by itself to be a problem for most railroads. Remember it at like an 1/8" over 100', not 1/4" but could be wrong and niether is very long considering most don't have a straight 100' run, not even clubs!
We used to have that issue at our club layout. Once we took control of the humidity and ballasted our track, we haven't had a reoccurance of the problem.
Joe
I have had a functioning dehumidifier in all my train rooms ever since the one incident in the late spring of 2005. It was my first layout, one comprising three full sheets of 5/8 plywood G1S laid flush side-by-side over a framework. I came down to the train room/unfinished basement-with-bare-cinderblock walls and open joists above me to find a wide wow in the unglued Code 100 I had laid across a plastic bridge. On both sides of that maybe 24" of flex was EZ-Track with its plastic base, and it was held in place via DAP acrylic latex caulking. I elected to pull out the flex, shorten it by maybe 1/8", and reinsert it into the bridge deck. Never had a recurrence, but I also went and bought a dehumifier, my first for a train room, and have never looked back.
Another tip, for those still reading: if you go with milled lumber for your benchwork, purchase what you need (using a careful plan as a guide so you don't get too much or too little, or even the wrong stuff) about five days prior to first cuts. Lay it out on a flat floor, with some weights on it to help keep it both flat and from twisting, and let air get at it. Get that dehumidifier going and let it run for at least four days. You'll have to empty the reservoire at least twice, maybe three times. By the sixth day, you will have nice dry wood to measure and to cut. It will keep its measured length, but more importantly its width, and it shouldn't change lengths or widths if you continue to keep the moisture in your train room between 40-66%. Above 65%, you can expect to see some problems developing on tracks that are not well ballasted.
rrebell The trouble is the plywood, period. Even when you install it on a building or floor you need gaps. The rail dosn't expand enough by itself to be a problem for most railroads. Remember it at like an 1/8" over 100', not 1/4" but could be wrong and niether is very long considering most don't have a straight 100' run, not even clubs!
When I once had the same experience as the OP, I had to trim the ends of the rails to fit them back together. MY contention is that the original fitting was too tight and the track gave under pressure, probably from heating, cooling, and humidity fluctuations in the train room.
Its not the plywood by itself. Its the part that doesnt have scenery yet. A fellow club member has a large layout in his basement that had been in progress for 3 years with no issues. Then 2 winters ago there was a BIG issue. We had started installing scenery on the layout and had painted some sections. We noticed when we came back to the layout in January after taking Christmas off that there were kinks in the tracks (many of them). We noted that these kinks only occured in the areas that scenery had not been started (bare plywood). It turns out that laytex paint does not seal wood, rather it actually allows moisture to travel through wood. This caused painted the plywood to expand and contract with air moisture content variations. Since then we have finished painting all benchwork and there have been no further issues with this layout of this nature.
Edit: I think I may have posted here in the forums about this Jan 2014 or so.
My layout is in the basement, bitter cold days, it's about 60 degrees, hot humid days it's about 75. My track is on roadbed material, glued to 2" styrofoam, glued to 1/2" plywood. All the glue was actually latex caulk. No problems in 8 years.
I think having everything securly fastened down, evenly with the caulk, and all ballast in place helps maintain the alignment. Every track joint is soldered, with a small jumper wire attached.
In all of my 40 years in the construction trades, the CDX type of plywood was the worst for expansion and contraction. I don't think anyone uses it as a base for a layout.
Mike.
My You Tube
I've had it happen a couple of times, both in my main classification yard. It was a nuisance but not a difficult fix. I work on the railroad almost exclusively in the cooler months so when I lay plywood and track, the temperatures and humidity are at the low end of the cycle. I'll discover expansion problems usually at the end of the warmer months when I get back to model railroading. I've had plywood buckle so now I leave a small gap betweeAdd Quote to your Post n sections when I lay it and cover the gap with duct tape. No problems since. Likewise I leave a small gap between rail sections to allow for expansion. I'll use a scrap piece of thin styrene or something similar to measure the gap.
Plywood expands about 10x that of nickle silver, and you wonder why there is a problem?????????????
richhotrain rrebell The trouble is the plywood, period. Even when you install it on a building or floor you need gaps. The rail dosn't expand enough by itself to be a problem for most railroads. Remember it at like an 1/8" over 100', not 1/4" but could be wrong and niether is very long considering most don't have a straight 100' run, not even clubs! I remain skeptical. I have looked at some web sites devoted to plywood by trade organizations. The indication is that plywood is subject to very little, if any, expansion and contraction. When I once had the same experience as the OP, I had to trim the ends of the rails to fit them back together. MY contention is that the original fitting was too tight and the track gave under pressure, probably from heating, cooling, and humidity fluctuations in the train room. Rich
I remain skeptical. I have looked at some web sites devoted to plywood by trade organizations. The indication is that plywood is subject to very little, if any, expansion and contraction.
We had a MASSIVE problem at the club I used to belong to. In our original quarters, there was no AC< but we did have plenty of heat. One turnback corner was built during the summer, and because it was so hot and humid, we probbaly made it worse by keeping the doors open, this was pretty much the only airflow we had. The framing was built to house standards, all 2x4 studd wall construction. We had plywood, and then homasote. On this curve, we had a loadsin in/empties out arrangement with a power plant and coal mine, so in addition to the 2 mainline tracks goign around the outside edge, there were 4 more tracks connecting the mine and power plant that wouldbe hidden under scenery. It all worked great. Unthi the weather turned cold and we turned on the heat in the building. Warm, dry air - and EVERY ONE of those 6 tracks buckled, much worse that the OP's photo.
It is NOT the track expanding, never is, unless you have temperature swings so severe that you really couldn't be in the room at either extreme. The wood dried out and shrank, and I still suspect the homasote as well. It's not temperature - wood is quite stable across a range of temperature. It's the humidity, or lack thereof. Ideally you should let any lumber sit and acclimate to the location it will be used, but if your humidity varies greatly through the year, that can be difficult to accomplish. It's not easy to truly seal wood - latex paint does not 'seal' anything, you need shellac or varnish, and you have to remember to get the cut ends as well. ANd even this just slows down the process.
A precentative measure, sonsider the wood age and dryness as well as the current climate when putting down the track. The problem at the club was the track was laid when the wood was at maximum expansion, and not enough gaps were left. If laying track in the dry winter (at least, that's how the humidy works around here), you can leae fewer gaps because the wood will only expand when the humidty rises.
Plywood should be less affected compared to stick lumber, but if you frame with stick lumber and top with plywood - the plywood might not move much, but it's attached to a base that will. Plywood is supposed to be more stable because of the multiple layers with the grain running in different directions. The more plies the better, but some of the junk being sold these days, especially by the big box stores...ewww.
Now, I've never had these sort of problems, though my last layout was in a spare bedroom and thus had at least temperature control. The one before that though was in an unfished basement and even with a dehumdifier running in the summer had pretty good humiduty swings and also temperature. There was a heater but it wasn;t left on, so a few days with no one down there in the winter and it would get uncomfortably cool until the heater was turned on and ran for a while. But - both those layouts had the track laid on top of extruded foam insulation board. While the structure was made with stick lumber, the foam was glued on top of that and then the track was caulked on, the basement one used WS foam roadbed, the last one I just used cork. The lumber for the frames of the basement one wasn;t stored in the basement - I built the frames for each section out in the garage and carried the finished product to the basement, but it is my belief that the foam was rigid enough to stand up to any change in the wood without moving enough to affect the track.
rrebell Plywood expands about 10x that of nickle silver, and you wonder why there is a problem?????????????
My layout was living happily ever after until we got a new high efficiency furnace. The furnace guy told us that the new H.E. furnaces really tend to dry out the air and that some people actually get a humidifier installed after the fact. Anyway a few months after the install I ended up with two spoings in the track. They were an easy quick fix so no harm done.
We did get a very good electronic air cleaner with the new furnace and the dust level went to practically zilch on the layout. It was a good trade off.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
I had the same problem so switched to Kato Unitrack.
(When track questions come up, it's pretty much expected that I mention Unitrack.)
hi all
Given the right conditions all brands of track flex or set can play that game
I have big temprature variations
How I deal with it I use code 100 track so in out of sight areas I use the expanda track's many manufacturers make that looks like a level crossing and you slide to the length to fill an odd gap which is what they are really meant for.
In high visabilaty areas I use Peco expansion joints these look like and work just like prototype well expansion joints.
You do need to electricaly bond around both these tracks to make sure you don't get dead spots because of the expansion and contraction in both kinds of set up but it works well.
I would rather spend the extra few dollars so I don't have to fix heat buckles later
regards John
Very interesting thread as I am building a layout in our heated attic (boiler/radiator-type heat, not forced air) and just last weekend encountered a number of locations where the newly laid flextrack had bowed outward. My wife and I live in Minnesota and last weekend we left town. The outdoor temperature dropped down to -14 F and the relative humidity dropped to approx. 53% (max. of around 73%). Of course the indoor temperature ranged from 60 to 70 F, but the outdoor air was very dry (air at -14 F can't hold much water vapor). This was the coldest air of the winter thus far.
The layout is constructed with 3/4" plywood "ribbons" supported by risers on 1x3 joists and 1x4 L-girders, with cork roadbed and Peco flextrack. The track is glued to the cork with DAP Alex Plus, and all rail joiners on curves are soldered, as are some on the straight sections (not many of those as its a curvy layout in a 12' x 13' space). I soldered the flextrack into 6' or 9' sections and then soldered each of those to the track already in place before curving them to the required radius. What that meant for me was that there was a short (approx. 6" to 9") section where there was no glue holding the track to the cork, as I didn't apply the glue until I had worked the track into the required radius, then I pulled it back a little to apply the glue (Peco flextrack is forgiving with that).
Last Monday when we returned there were approximately 12 locations where the track had bowed outward, all located where there was no glue holding the track to the cork, or directly adjacent to those locations (in the latter case some of the track was pulled a little bit off of the glue). I have replaced those "unglued" sections with glued sections. I used the Kalmbach benchwork book instructions on purchasing the wood (AC plywood, kiln-dried, etc.) I am guessing that the wood shrank last weekend due to the very dry weather. If the relative humidity was 53% with a temperature around 0 F, when that air is heated to 60 F the relative humidity will be even less. Plus my wife and I weren't in the house last weekend to breathe a bunch of humidity into the air.
I will be cutting gaps in the very short straight sections--I hope this prevents track pull-aparts when the humidity rises again and the wood expands. The attic space will have a room air conditioner in the summer but I won't run it all the time, so it's bound to get quite humid when the outdoor temperature rises into the 90s with high humidity.
Any ideas? What about the portions of the curved track at the soldered rail joiners, where there are no ties underneath the track? Should I somehow attached the rails to the roadbed to prevent movement there? Or should I leave it as is? This is an interesting issue to deal with, here in the middle of the continent where the temperature and humidity vary so widely with the seasons.
I always thought that with A/B plywood of at least 3/8 inch, you had a product with less voids in the inner plys, and therefore more glued surfaces and greater dimensional stability.
When I built my switching layout table, I chose such superior plywood and used well dried fir for the framing, allowing the framing pieces to adjust to my garage for about 5 days before cutting. I also used Liquid Nails construction adhesive and a generous amount of gp construction screws ( more per linear foot than perhaps necessary) to enhance stability.
cedarwoodron I always thought that with A/B plywood of at least 3/8 inch, you had a product with less voids in the inner plys, and therefore more glued surfaces and greater dimensional stability. When I built my switching layout table, I chose such superior plywood and used well dried fir for the framing, allowing the framing pieces to adjust to my garage for about 5 days before cutting. I also used Liquid Nails construction adhesive and a generous amount of gp construction screws ( more per linear foot than perhaps necessary) to enhance stability. Cedarwoodron
I have had problems with track expanding and buckling for several years. There is no plywood in my layout. My unheated garage can go from 100 degrees in the summer to minus 20 or even minus 30 last winter. Thats a 130 degree difference. It only takes less than 1/8 inch expansion in soldered track to buckle it. My track was cork roadbed over homosote, with the track glued to the cork roadbed with white glue. The track in some places lifted upward, breaking away from the cork roadbed, and some places went sidewise. I have seen gaps open up and close in a matter of several hours, when I heat the garage to work out there. It is not humidity doing this, at least in my case.
hobo9941 I have had problems with track expanding and buckling for several years. There is no plywood in my layout. My unheated garage can go from 100 degrees in the summer to minus 20 or even minus 30 last winter. Thats a 130 degree difference. It only takes less than 1/8 inch expansion in soldered track to buckle it. My track was cork roadbed over homosote, with the track glued to the cork roadbed with white glue. The track in some places lifted upward, breaking away from the cork roadbed, and some places went sidewise. I have seen gaps open up and close in a matter of several hours, when I heat the garage to work out there. It is not humidity doing this, at least in my case.
BMMECNYCIts not the plywood by itself. Its the part that doesnt have scenery yet.
Interesting observation: The two areas that just buckled were 'un-senicked' but the one last year was fully scenicked. However, they were all over 1/2" to 3/4" plywood. The lastest ones were also where I had been very 'thrifty' with the caulk and may have had a little to do with the location of the buckling. Considering that my layout is now about 5-6 years old and almost all joints are soldered, I consider myself fortunate in not having more places with this issue.
Slightly off topic, but seeing the grumbles about humidity and kinking reminded me of something that one of the professors who I worked with at the university where I went did to solve that problem. (This idea could maybe be used depending on the dryness of the air and the temp of the area in question.) She taught Geography, among other subjects. She had lots of wicker-type baskets that she kept in her office. To keep them from cracking, she would fill glass jars with water. As the air would dry out the water would evaporate from the jars. (I would occasionally help her fill those jars, so I have seen it work.)
rrebell hobo9941 I have had problems with track expanding and buckling for several years. There is no plywood in my layout. My unheated garage can go from 100 degrees in the summer to minus 20 or even minus 30 last winter. Thats a 130 degree difference. It only takes less than 1/8 inch expansion in soldered track to buckle it. My track was cork roadbed over homosote, with the track glued to the cork roadbed with white glue. The track in some places lifted upward, breaking away from the cork roadbed, and some places went sidewise. I have seen gaps open up and close in a matter of several hours, when I heat the garage to work out there. It is not humidity doing this, at least in my case. Homasote is wood!!!!!!!!!!!!! Requires 3/16" between panels, a little less than ply, depending on the wood the ply is made of.
Homasote is wood!!!!!!!!!!!!! Requires 3/16" between panels, a little less than ply, depending on the wood the ply is made of.
Rebell,
Sorry....But that statement about Homasote, is not true!
http://www.pakline.com/homasoteboard/homasoteboard.html
Have not experienced any expansion/contraction on My layout in going on 32yrs. Kiln dried white pine 1x3's, 1/2 exterior grade ply, with flat area's covered with 1/2 Homasote roadbed, cut Myself. All glued, screwed and newer sections, used an air-brad nailer, instead of screw's.....faster and just as strong. DC 3-cab control, with around 45 blocks.....not once have I had a problem. It's in My attic, in a burg. in ''Chiberia''. Attic has not always been temp. controlled. When You build with cheap green material...You reap the results.
Take Care!!
Frank