Maybe this should go to the "irritation" thread, in which case I'm announcing that this modeler is irritated at himself. I blame the wonderful articles and video features and even the posts in this forum for this pattern I can't seem to avoid: paragraphs on decals, for instance, that include long discurses into the relative virtue of "Future" versus Glosscote, followed by a couple pages on weathering with pastels--but which ones?--and beautiful photos, followed by a video how-to on cleaning rails and wheels with any of several methods, followed by...
I've long since reconciled myself to the fact that some of my fellow hobbyists have lots of disposable income for whole fleets of locomotives (even if their layouts are not necessarily large). I accept that those guys have more money and more power to them; what I can't get my head around is where they get: a)the time, and b:the skills for each of these.
Rob Spangler, Dr. Wayne, Pelle, Lance Mindheim, to say nothing of Cody and David and Dana and the rest--you know them all. Do they have a natural gift for all these disparate aspects of a good layout? Even Alan McClelland's "good enough" was pretty darn good. It can't all be good photography, though some of it is. These people inspire me, but they also contribute to my suspicion that there's a certain gift, or skillset, that will elude me forever. Joe Fugate commented recently about a layout that was entirely weathered with an airbrush (sorry if that's not an accurate memory), and he seemed to think this was a less-than-good thing, while I'm thinking "Wow! The whole layout is weathered! Fabulous!"
I think I'm asking for a reminder of how these outstanding modelers do it: are there a few with an inborn predisposition to work carefully and creatively whether it's soldering or decaling or rock carving or whatever, or am I attributing multiple skills to a few whose best efforts are really more narrow than may appear. I'd be relieved to know that the guy who makes wonderful scratchbuilt structures can't ballast track for beans, or the one who re-letters boxcars by the dozen has no static grass on his layout. What's the key to giving me a better perspective?
LION has no disposable income. LION has NO income at all. Zookeeper feeds him, provides a vet once in a while, and provides him with this luxuray enclosure where visitors can come and see him.
Still LION has a nice railroad. Him builds things out of scrap materials and stuff, but him also has big furry paws which lend themselves not to fine crafty work.
Still, the LION is satisfied with what he has and what he hs made, and I guess that is all that matters so long as the wildebeests keep appearing in my enclosure.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
No one is born knowing how to solder, scratchbuild a turnout, or use an airbrush. It takes practice. Some people have been doing it longer than others so their work is better.
A while back there was a thread (here or somewhere else) about making fences and I posted a couple of pics of some fences and gates I had made out of brass wire. Someone commented that they didn't have the skill to do that. I thought "Neither did I until I tried it." I think some people are afraid to experiment because they think they might mess up, but you learn from your mistakes.
Steve S
erosebudRob Spangler, Dr. Wayne, Pelle, Lance Mindheim, to say nothing of Cody and David and Dana and the rest--you know them all. Do they have a natural gift for all these disparate aspects of a good layout? ... I'd be relieved to know that the guy who makes wonderful scratchbuilt structures can't ballast track for beans, or the one who re-letters boxcars by the dozen has no static grass on his layout. What's the key to giving me a better perspective?
First of all, thanks for the inclusion in the company of those others. Not sure I'd rank myself so high - but then again I know what I don't do well!
If this helps, I'm pretty terrible at wiring stuff inside locomotives. I have a lot of locos that make do without headlights because I can't stand working on that kind of thing, and fishing wires around. I also struggle with finishing structures and completely integrating them into scenes as well as I'd like. I wish I could do that as well as a few of the others you mention.
As for the rest of that perspective, I'd say a lot of it is stick-toitiveness; working on something over and over until you get better. If there is a key natural ability involved, perhaps it's being able to constantly look for a better way to do something. Read everything you can from the best of the hobby press and the forums, and try new ideas. Realize that a method or material that works for one person may not help you at all, and resolve to try something different if one idea didn't do it for you. Have the humility to realize when you totally botched a given task, and see what you can learn from it for next time. I've gained a lot of valuable insight from failed experiments.
For good or bad, skills are to some extent a function of time. I've spent a lot of time honing techniques for scenery and backdrops, and messing with track so it's bulletproof.
One additional thought is that every "successful" hobbyist doesn't use every technique out there. Some of what I read in the magazines or the forums is foreign to me and I have no real desire to figure every bit of it out. I'll adapt an idea here and there when I feel I can, but I try to avoid the pressure of wondering if the grass would be greener were I only able to do what Modeler X is doing. For example, Lance Mindheim is doing some great structure modeling with photographic laminations. It's beyond me for the time being. I can enjoy seeing how he does it without feeling I'm missing out.
Rob Spangler
Let me begin with a hearty LOL. Your post reflects the feelings and uncertainties that beset the vast majority of us model railroaders. We are not carpenters. We are not artists. We are not electricians. We are not designers. Yet, we are expected to possess all of these skills and more. Unfortunately, we don't possess all of these skills and more. So, we make do with what we have as skill levels.
You mention money and the inherent assumption is that it takes a lot of money to build a world class layout. But I am not so sure that is entirely true. What is does take is skill, patience, and attention to detail.
My advice? Do the best you can and pay no heed to those names that you mentioned. They are in a class by themselves.
Rich
Alton Junction
Been there. I knew nothing about HO scale trains a decade ago when I had dropped my Dad off at the Nanaimo ferry terminal on his way back to the USA after the New Year. I had seen an ad for a hobby shop featuring trains, so I dropped around before returning home to my town 90 minutes away. Zoweee...!!! A locomotive with sounds! I had noticed the lovely display layout at the front entrance.
So, I purchased a DVD, and that very locomotive, and some track, and a DC power pack and headed home. Three years later I had a good-in-photos layout, although it was less good standing there looking at it.
My grandpappy told my dad who, when he wanted to lift the handset and crank their new 1940 telephone couldn't quite get the courage to do it to call his friend, and had stepped back and pleaded for his dad to make the call for him,"Son, when you want to make that call badly enough, you'll do it yourself." Soon enough, my father became competent with ye olde telephone.
I can now lay track, make it powered, including doing soldering, and I can ballast it, and can even plan a layout track plan in my head. I can't do any of it especially well, but I'm a newcomer to the hobby with only 10 years invested. I can do enough to get my satisfaction out of it.
BTW, youtube is your friend. I always watch four or six of them before I tackle something I haven't done in more than three or four years (things change!), or that will be my first time at it. I have everything to gain from it.
Personally, I just hack away at things. It I don't like the end result I rework until I'm satisfied. Or I disguise it. Nothing like a lichen bush to hide that building corner that doesn't quite meet.
Over time I have gotten better at things. While I always do the best I can, I don't get hung up on it. This is a hobby, when I'm reasonably satisfied then it's good enough.
Enjoy
Paul
Paul:
I agree with you. I do some things moderately well, some things good enough, and some need several reworks.
I have met a couple people who said they were good at everything, but never demonstrated said expertise.
Dave
As I am in the early planning stages, I am having the same conversation with myself. Not much of a scratch builder, but I do like to paint my own cars and structures. I'm pretty good with rock molds and scenery, but not much on roads or the tiny details, painting people, signs in windows and no good at all at fine electrical work.
The people that can do it all are artists. I'm not going to be one of those people. Yes I can read and master DCC. I might even be able to create a scene of people around a building with 'stuff' but I can't do that around every structure, nor do I want to.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
If you really want to see the kind of work that you do, strap a mini-cam on a flat car and push it around your layout. I did that a few months back and I haven't been the same since. The camera magnifies every flaw. After I saw my own videos, I have all but decided to build a new layout to correct all of my errors, of which there are many.
I've had similar thoughts when reading mrr. I wonder if it might help if soe of the feature articles perhaps showed the unfinished areas of the layouts?
I mean it's great to see the finished work but sometimes it's disheartening to see those compared to my plywood pacific and wonder if or how I'll ever get to that point.
And yes the project layouts do show that bbut they are tiny and finished in a short timeframe.
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
"Is anyone good at everything?"
IMHO, I don't think so. We all know now that Broadway Lion is no good at powering turnout frogs (48 wheels pick-up) and that doctorwayne is no expert in DCC. Both are however outstanding modelers in many aspects of the hobby.
Like you, each time I see some photos of doctorwayne's or Grampys Trains' or Lion's work, to name a few, I think I shouldn't have ever started a layout because I know that I would never achieve such results. Then I say to myself:
"Don't put the bar too high and do your best. If your not satisfied with the results, you can do it again... and again."
Guy
Modeling CNR in the 50's
erosebudWhat's the key to giving me a better perspective?
You may not want to know..A lot of those super size layouts you see in magazines isn't finish and the article's photos is taken on the finish sections.
I'm good at industries,switching,laying track,operation,industrial scenery,decaling and painting. My soldering is so/so. Having spent years around railroads and having my boots on the ground I have a general idea on what I'm trying to do.
However.
Don't ask me how to wire a simple toggle switch or the difference between a FMC and a SEICO boxcar unless you want a blank stare.
I suspect there is more specialized "experts" then "experts" that has all the answers.
For the record.. I get by and have tons of fun modeling for myself and I don't worry if my modeling can stand up to Modeler John Doe's. If it doesn't a big whoopee doo is in order.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
erosebud,
Never be afraid to try somthing, never doubt your abilities, accept criticism with a grain of salt, do not be afraid of failure--if the attempt does not pan out--you will still learn from it, Edison once commented that he knew of 10,000 items that could not be used as a filiment in an incandescent light bulb, because he had tried that many, my attempts at mending a fishing net in the beginning brought much humor to the other fishermen, my ability today is far removed from whence I started over 60 years ago.
In this life things take time- There are those who seem to have a natural vent for certain activities, generally the only difference between skill sets of people is time.
Know that as you start out what you construct may look like Miss Robin's Friday afternoon class project--some of mine have--but after several attempts they appear to look better.
Persist--don't be too critical of yourself, and be aware no matter what- you will have critics. If it is of a positive nature, then perhaps utilize it, if it consists of color, type, etc. be polite, but recogize it for what it is.
Always believe in yourself---Fear of failure is responsible for holding most people back.
J.White
I can't speak for anyone else, but it took me most of my life to get to the point where I had the time, money, and space to build a layout. Prior to that, what modeling I did was confined to occasional dioramas, which at least gave me some practice to develop my modeling skills.
I concentrate my efforts on the things I enjoy and do best, such as scratchbuilding, weathering, scenery, etc. The areas where I have difficulty, I either do the best I can with limited skills, or get help.
Even now, there's still only so many hours in a day, and so many things I want to model! For instance, I would love to scratch or kitbash some custom rolling stock, but for now I make do with repainted/weathered "store bought" stuff.
Hi,
I've built a handful of layouts over the years, doing each and every step of it on my own. Other than the shops I took in High School (Lane Tech - '62), I have no formal training in any of the layout "arts".
It took a lot of trial and error, and self education - especially the various Kalmbach primers - to get to the point that I am fairly happy with the results, my current layout.
While some of us are more adept at learning these hands on skills, some folks just "can't do it". But IMO, with education and effort and persistance, you can do a good job that will (and only needs to) satisfy yourself.
Like the old adage...."if at first you don't succeed, try try again"!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
You are talking about the top 10% of high quality talanted people of the entire model railroad population.
You're only seeing them post here, because everybody else with average or badly built and looking layouts, they don't ever post photos online.
Lets just admit were average at best, so there's no way the rest of us have the skills or time to matching those top layouts.
btw, have you seen the layouts posted on Model Railroad Hobbyist? Thats gotta be top 1%, really seriously some of those guys are incredibly talanted with way too much money and time on their hands. One guy spent over $100k on a new garage just for his layout.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
I hear ya. There is a lot of frustration with modeling anything. I expect that and learned early to ask questions of the greats. Those who are truly good at their craft are also quite humble; even better are those who are willing to share their secrets. Learning from them gives me confidence.
Without much disposable income to throw at this hobby, I have to really research and analyze cost-effective methods. Talking to poeple here helps because everyone (yes everyone) has something to contribute. Mr. Fugate was merely providing commentary on a layout and his opinion matters as much (or as little) as anyone else's. Scenery is an art form that few fully master.
Fear of making a mistake is a poor way of approaching diving deeper in this hobby. The good Lord knows I made more than my share of mistakes and revised much on the layout. There's nothing wrong with that.
Perhaps I am too foolish to enjoy the hobby for nothing else but the enjoyment my main auidence: my three young kids and their cousins. A close second is my dad who never had a layout because his parents passed away before he was 12.
The analogy to golf comes to mind. I enjoy the sport (plus it helps me keep a bit active). But if I could only play if I was good at it I couldn't go (I'd have more budget for trains). I enjoy it a lot, but do get mad (at myself) a bit.
Same on the RR front. I enjoy just about all aspects of it. I learn along the way, get better at most, avoid some at least to date. I do lots in sme areas where I like that; e.g., converting DC locos, structure kits, freight cat kits. I get mad when I mess up, unless I'm really taking my time, which I usually do.
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
MotleyYou're only seeing them post here, because everybody else with average or badly built and looking layouts, they don't ever post photos online.
Only because the expert wanna bes feels they must make comments about the quality of the photos,modeling or get a lecture on how their cars and locomotives are inferior to the prototype..
erosebud....
There was once a man visiting New York City on business. He found he had some time unscheduled so he decided to take in a matinee musical performance. He quickly found that he had lost his way and stopped an elderly gentleman and asked him, "How can I get to Carnegie Hall?" The old man just grinned and said, "Practice, my son, Practice!"
As a retired Music Teacher, I have used the old adage, "Practice makes Perfect", but near the end of my career I found a better one.... "Perfect Practice makes Perfect!"
While certain inate traits are helpful (fine motor function, good eyesight, and steady hands....), experience and practice are what developes the type of skills you are talking about. All the skills needed in Model Railroading are learned! You may find some things very easy, likely because you have already aquired those skills somewhere else.
I am fortunate to have made some friends in the NMRA (and some other places) that are among the best of the best. Because of their kind help over the past decade, I now look at what I can produce with a lot more satisfaction and find the areas on the layout I built a decade ago not meeting my expectations. That said, I still have a lot to learn.
There is a story about a Japanese Koto player who in his late 80's was asked by a reporter why he still practiced several hours each day. His answer is a classic... "So that on the last day of my life I may learn some new as I did on my first."
Good luck, and Practice, Practice, Practice!
73
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
This reminds me of the scene between Carol and her mother in "As good as it gets".
Carol: I just want a normal boyfriend!
Mother: Honey, that doesn't exist!
Replace "normal boyfriend" with "good at everything" :)
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
erosbud - Thomas Edison once stated " I failed my way to success" on his death bed I have heard that when asked what he would change it was reported that he said " I would have made more mistakes" - The key is simply starting and figuring out what your strengths are and building on them. It can be a bit overwhelming in the beginning buts just start. "...step into the road, and if you dont keep your feet, there is no telling where you might be swept off to" Bibo Baggins.
YGW
I have thought quite a bit (too much) about this topic and related ideas…From my experience in the hobby, I would say that there are some very “good” modelers out there…
Skills: Some guys have them innately – most of us have to develop them. As a musician for many years, I see parallels (as Ray so eloquently stated earlier) in many areas. Natural skills are a gift and they do exist in all areas of human existence. I know some modelers who are just better at certain things than I will ever be, no matter how much I practice….
Speed: Some modelers produce high quality work very quickly – this one is more invisible but is central to getting a large layout done in a reasonable amount of time. I know a couple of guys who can put together a batch of Rail line box cars at least twice as fast as I can. Over time, this speed adds up. Tenacity and motivation: In my experience, this one is the biggest factor. Keep plugging away and you will get somewhere. Going out in the train room as often as you can and working on something will produce consistent progress. If one is willing to “do over” things that don’t work, this will produce results and improve skills. I overheard one excellent modeler talking last week-end saying that he thought “if you aren’t having problems with something, then you aren’t advancing” Extreme - you bet, but this guy has a basement full of excellent models and gets stuff done more quickly than most of us…
How good we are at this stuff doesn’t matter in the end - It is, after all, a hobby…..We get to make the choice about how intensely we want to pursue it.. If your project is big, then you are talking about a large investment in time, money and skills. As you open the door to the train room and look around at all the unfinished projects, it can be very overwhelming. I figure that you better enjoy the process, because in all likelihood, time runs out before you are done with it….
As for “good at everything?”: – there are well rounded modelers but…I am not interested in hearing Segovia play the blues, just as I am not interested in hearing BB King playing Bach….(other than the kitsch factor) Even the greats don’t cover everything well….
BTW: Ray - I like the quotes especially the Kyoto player – I tell my students “practice makes permanent”
Too much navel gazing from me..
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Most everything you do has tricks to make the job better, that and many falures is the key to success. Doing scenery well was hardest for me but I learned with much help it is a layering proccess and what looks bad can be covered up or adapted, same for the buitiful weathering jobs you see.
I'm just naturally good at everything I do. What else can I say?
There may be those who are good at everything, but I'm not one of them. However, I'd like to think that I am good enough for my own expectations, but even that one falls down as I look at things I've done which met my standards at the time they were done. I don't see much that I wouldn't redo if I had the time, but I'm too busy trying to do current projects better than the ones already done. If you can satisfy your own expectations, even only temporarily, then you are likely to get better as you go on. Good at everything? I wouldn't be foolish enough to even bother pursuing it.
I do find it disappointing that more Members don't post their work here - there are a scant few left here who might dare to criticise, but a lot more who might be able to offer constructive suggestions for making improvements. Anyone can improve by dint of repeated attempts, but how much better to hear and see, free of charge, tips from those who have learned them over time and through hard work. I post far fewer photos here than I do here: bigbluetrains and lots of the latter are more instructional than they are examples of work done well. In fact, some are illustrations of missteps and errors, all part of the process of improving.
Wayne
In my opinion, I think predispositions are important. You can't neglect the fact the son of a modelrailroader whose grandfather was also a modelrailroader might have some kind of predisposition has he's been raised in a favorable environnement to learn. Just like the son of a pianist could more easily become one himself.
Just like if one was a train engineer, or train dispatcher (or other job related to the field) should have knowledge about the prototype a carpenter might not have. (yet the carpenter has valuable skills that perhaps the rail dispatcher does not have)
So: Yes, some of us have knowledge or skills that seem to be innate, but I doubt they are. Fact is, model railroading is a hobby that requires so many different and varied skills the chances are some of those skills were learned or can be learned outside of the hobby itself. It means we probably don't have to learn them all from scratch, unless one is a total stranger to any of those needed skills. That means if all the skills needed represent 100%, rare are the modelers that start at 0%.
That makes the hobby itself an accessible one to anyone who's got minimal interest.
And then all what is needed is leveling those skills up.
Antoine