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I give up, tell me what I am doing wrong.

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  • Member since
    August 2004
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Posted by dinwitty on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 8:56 PM
uahhmmm erm...guyz... I have a Bowser Big Boy which may weigh in the same as his weighted down diesels. This Big Boy could pull the paint off the wall. Most decoders are rated around 1 amps. I could not use a 1 amp decoder on the Bowser Big Boy. Digitrax makes a 4 amp decoder. http://www.digitrax.com/products/mobile-decoders/dh465/ I was working on my N&W Jawn Henry Turbine, changed the motor to a single large NWSL, I used a QSI turbine decoder to dabble the sounds... I fried the decoder. It now has the the digitrax 4 amp decoder. Working on the sound for it, BUT it has the direct connection for their sound bug. You need -current- ...-amperage-...not voltage. Heavy duty weighting his diesels this will overpower those decoders and fry them. They will not have the current output to deal with the heavier load. BEMF and more voltage will NOT do it. BEMF is about motor control...NOT current. No power, no movee. No matter what the voltage. Your engines on DC..you are right, they are getting the needed current, throw a 1 amp decoder in it, you restrict the needed power.
  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Bakersfield, CA 93308
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Posted by RR_Mel on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 7:18 PM

BMMECNYC

 

 
RR_Mel
The one that stands out is the T4X, can I use a T4X and a T1 in a tandem A B configuration and will both decoders BEMF auto sync?

 

That may be a question for the TCS themselves.  Also those decoders are not sound decoders.  Incidentally, TCS has this: "All decoders are covered by a one year, goof proof, no questions asked warranty. Decoders outside of the warranty which cannot be repaired can be upgraded for a nominal replacement fee."

How old are the SD40-2s?

 

Most of my SD40-2 are last run of the Blue Box series.  I bought two new SD40-2s at my LHS in 1994, the rest are eBay clunkers that I have upraded.  I replaced older motors, all the motors are be between 1994 and early 2000s.  All run exceptionally well.  I replaced the bronze bearings if they had any slop and all of the motor mounts.  All the motors have low current draw and run very close in speed on DC, that's an Athearn plus.
 
As far as sound goes I only have sound decoders in my steam, the sound coming from my Athearns works for me diesel wise.
 
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
  • Member since
    April 2003
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 6:20 PM

RR_Mel
The one that stands out is the T4X, can I use a T4X and a T1 in a tandem A B configuration and will both decoders BEMF auto sync?

That may be a question for the TCS themselves.  Also those decoders are not sound decoders.  Incidentally, TCS has this: "All decoders are covered by a one year, goof proof, no questions asked warranty. Decoders outside of the warranty which cannot be repaired can be upgraded for a nominal replacement fee."

How old are the SD40-2s?

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Bakersfield, CA 93308
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Posted by RR_Mel on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 5:52 PM

rrinker

 Your DC power pack, if it's a fairly fancy one, may be doing voltage compensation going up the grades to keep things moving. What happens if you increase the throttle on the DCC when going up hill (being like the prototype, unless motor power is increased, a loaded loco will slow down doing up hills)? The DH123 decoders do not have BEMF so they cannot compensate for speed variations on their own, however there are tuneable motor parameters that may need to be adjusted based on the type of motor in the loco. The DH165 series do have BEMF, but the default settings may not be approriate for the specific motors.

 Try a TCS decoder - they have auto adjusting BEMF. It will run a bit erratically when first installed, but as the loco runs for a while, it smooths out as it finds the best settings for the motor. After that, super smooth. And no CVs to set to get it to work well, just set the address.

                  --Randy

 

 

I was thinking about buying a couple new decoders.  I looked at the TCS site and it leaves a bit to be desired.  I feel I need the 1.3 amp decoders to feel warm and fuzzy with the Athearn SD40-2 stock motors.  I also want 4 Functions on at least one decoder.  The one that stands out is the T4X, can I use a T4X and a T1 in a tandem A B configuration and will both decoders BEMF auto sync?
 
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Reading, PA
  • 30,002 posts
Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 4:42 PM

 Your DC power pack, if it's a fairly fancy one, may be doing voltage compensation going up the grades to keep things moving. What happens if you increase the throttle on the DCC when going up hill (being like the prototype, unless motor power is increased, a loaded loco will slow down doing up hills)? The DH123 decoders do not have BEMF so they cannot compensate for speed variations on their own, however there are tuneable motor parameters that may need to be adjusted based on the type of motor in the loco. The DH165 series do have BEMF, but the default settings may not be approriate for the specific motors.

 Try a TCS decoder - they have auto adjusting BEMF. It will run a bit erratically when first installed, but as the loco runs for a while, it smooths out as it finds the best settings for the motor. After that, super smooth. And no CVs to set to get it to work well, just set the address.

                  --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
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  • From: Mpls/St.Paul
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Posted by wjstix on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 4:23 PM

Yes, try changing CVs 2, 5 and 6 to zero (and maybe 3 and 4, which control momentum). That should make the engine run the same as it does under DC - unless you have (intentionally or not) set it up to use a speed curve. If CV 5 is set at say 125, you've basically cut the maximum power going to the engine by about 1/2.

Stix
Moderator
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Posted by Steven Otte on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 3:45 PM

Most decoders have separate CVs (Configuration Variables) for DC-operation max voltage and DCC-operation max voltage. Check their values to see if your decoder is limiting how much voltage goes to the motor under DCC.

Also, get a scale speedometer (or the old method, a yardstick, stopwatch, and calculator) to find out how fast your engine goes under DCC. It might be that the decoder limits the engine to prototypical speeds, which is not the case when there's no decoder installed.

--
Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editor
sotte@kalmbach.com

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Bakersfield, CA 93308
  • 6,526 posts
I give up, tell me what I am doing wrong.
Posted by RR_Mel on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 1:56 PM

Woe is me!
 
Every time I make a post saying that my locomotives have much more power running on DC than they do when I have a DCC decoder in them I get flack saying I’m doing something wrong.  I’m asking for help to find what I’m doing wrong.  I admit that I’m a weirdo and rarely do anything “normal”.  I went to DCC purely for sound for my steam Cab Forwards, the DCC sound is awesome.
 
I have over 75 HO locomotives, I have wired all but about 6 for DCC operation (standard NMRA 8 pin female connector).  I only have a dozen decoders and I swap them around to run in DCC mode.  Every locomotive is fitted with a DC shorting plug that I remove when I plug in a decoder.
 
I won’t go into my steam locomotives because the wheels slip pulling a dozen box cars full of birds in flight up my 3½% grade.
 
My diesel fleet is another case, I have a large fleet of E7s.  I have 6 stock Athearn Blue Box SD40-2 frames with Cary cast white metal bodies, three As and three Bs.  The Cary bodies weigh in between 24 and 28 ounces, a stock Athearn SD40-2 weighs 14 ounces so roughly my E7As weigh 2½ pounds and a E7B weighs 2¼ pounds.  A pair draws 1.8 amps under full load on my 3½% grade from my 5 amp DC power pack.   
 
I have six more non stock Athearn SD40-2 frames as well as 8 Model Power E7 A&B pairs, all using cast metal bodies but I won’t bring them into this post.
 
My diesel decoders are Digitrax DH123P and DH165IP.  The DH165IP is the decoder in two pairs of Athearn SD40-2/Cary E7s.
 
With a pair of SD40-2 locomotives weighing very close to 5 pounds wheel slip doesn’t happen!
 
OK, when operating in DCC mode two locomotives using DH165IP decoders struggle up my 3½% grade towing 9 passenger cars and a dummy E7B.  All the cars are somewhat over weight, 7 ounces for my heaviest car.
 
The same two locomotives without decoders and DC shorting plugs installed towing the same passenger cars pull my grade easily at half throttle on my 5 amp DC power pack.   My DCC power supply is rated at 3½ amps.
 
Why is there such a big difference?
 
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

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