Glad to hear it!
Also, good to know that Bowser is still a first class company. Good job by making this right!
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
Got to add a big thanks to everyone here that helped me through this!!!
Ultimately it was Bowser that resolved the problem but I learned a bunch about how these things are put together along the way.
Huntington Junction - Freelance based on the B&O and C&O in coal country before the merger... doing it my way. Now working on phase 3. - Walt
For photos and more: http://www.wkhobbies.com/model-railroad/
Woohoo! - Great news, Walt! Thanks for updating us on your locomotive saga. And it's always encouraging to hear a good customer service outcome.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Success!
I got the trucks back from Bowser today. Not sure exactly what they did but the heavy grease is gone. And one of the gearboxes is a replacement. I reassembled and tested the loco before installing the shell and was happy to find a huge improvement. Of course then I discovered the front pickup wasn't working because the wire had pulled loose from the pickup side plate, so I had to pull the truck, separate the sideframe, solder the wire back on the pickup plate, and reassemble it all again...
Anyway the loco is now fully assembled and it runs quiet and smooth like it should. I really appreciate the customer service that I got from Bowser. Quick turnaround and no charge.
That's excellent news, Walt! Please be sure to report back when you get everything snapped back together again.
Good news! A Bowser rep returned my email. He recommends that I lube the motor to make sure it is OK, and send the trucks to him for repair/replacement.
I was thinking the same thing. I just sent Bowser an email asking for help.
Walt,
Perhaps it's worth contacting Bowser directly to see what they suggest/recommend about your issue. I would also include the pictures and/or video you posted on this thread.
Yup that is exactly the same sort of gear noise except without the oscillations, and it does sounds a bit quieter overall but hard to tell. The video makes me think the noise is inherent to the model and mine is probably just noisier than most. Way too noisy to enjoy running especially with the oscillations.
Very disappointing, even my low-cost Bachman value-sound diesels run very smooth and quiet.
Do I need to pull the side frames off before cleaning or can I just flush the grease out with laquer thinner as is? Do the side frames just pull apart?
HObbyguyDoes anyone here have a Hi Ad loco that runs smooth and quiet?
I'm uploading a video now... Stay tuned, don't touch that dial.
It surprised me that the gear noise IS somewhat pronounced. This is the first time I have run the locomotive with the sound muted and, keep in mind that there is only about 30 minutes of running time on it. I believe they are still quieter than your gears and in your case the sound seems to oscillate or pulsate more.
Not very scientific and there is some ex-train-eous noise from other locomotives nearby but you can be the judge. I should get my C-630 with the tri-mounts and see how it fares.
You might just have to do the cleanout-toothpaste-cleanout-relube trick? (see this thread: http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-922.html
Ed
Yes, there are seven gears in the Hi-ad trucks as opposed to the tri-mount which has five. The gear part numbers I gave you are still the same for the small, medium and large gears.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Next in the sequence. I ran it with the front drive disconnected and same rough sound. Then the rear disconnected and again the same rough sound. It is definitely coming from both gearboxes.
So I pulled the gearbox from the rear and popped the cover from the bottom. This thing is full of gears. I looked again at the parts list that Ed attached earlier and it looks like there should be 7 in the Hi Ad truck.
I rolled the truck by hand on rails and there is no binding. If anything the assembly feels a bit loose. Holding the gear at one end of the truck I can turn a wheel at the other end a good bit. Not surprising since all the backlash in the gears adds up. I also rolled it on some track and can "feel" the same sort of roughness that you can hear in the videos.
Does anyone here have a Hi Ad loco that runs smooth and quiet?
Next step... the side frames just pull apart at this point?
You want to be very aware of the small locking tabs on the side of the gear box. They appear to be very similar to Kato and they break if not handled with care. Ask me how I know.
The plastic cover you already removed from the top of the truck is all that holds it in place ! Lift the chassis, the truck will stay on the bench (once you remove the wires of course).
Mark R.Somebody "assumed" the two boxes were the same gear and dumped them all into a single box.
Add to that mix is the difference between the Hi-Adhesion truck, which HObbyguy's C&O engine has and the Tri-Mount trucks. Presumably the gears are the same but other parts are different. I looked at mine and the axle diameter is noticeably smaller on the Hi-Ad trucks.
All that gives me plenty to play with tomorrow night, and maybe into Friday too.
The only unanswered question is how the trucks actually attach to the frame. I can probably figure it out as I go along. But all the advice here is definitely help to keep me from screwing up and breaking things so I really appreciate it!
ricktrains4824 Odd that they had a gear issue that went passed their QC. They are normally tops on quality. The good news is, because they are aware there was an issue, they should (knowing Bowser, read "will") fix it, no problems.
Odd that they had a gear issue that went passed their QC. They are normally tops on quality. The good news is, because they are aware there was an issue, they should (knowing Bowser, read "will") fix it, no problems.
The story I got from a Bowser employee was that the correct gear and the slightly larger gear (for a different engine entirely) got mixed together at the factory in China. Somebody "assumed" the two boxes were the same gear and dumped them all into a single box.
So, it became a crap shoot as to how many gears were the too big ones. Might get away just fine with one, maybe even two if they weren't meshing together, but three would just be too much.
Wonder if those odds are calculatable ? .... Hmmm - 1000 tiny gears in a box - 500 good, 500 not so good.
gmpullmanI'm going to take a peek inside my gearcases and see how things are put together in there, AND get rid of all that excess grease... it collects cat hair!
Like yours, both my C-630s and C-636s were packed full of grease. Bowser must have a big budget to pay for all that grease. The C-636s just arrived last week.
Tom, it wasn't the previous owner, these things leave the factory this way.
My older Stewarts only had just enough grease to cover the gear teeth.
As Mark states, clean it all out. You can't see what's going on with all that Crisco in there!
Good Luck, Ed
It's just a single motor with two brass flywheels. You can run it with just one truck powered no problem. For the unpowered truck, just remove the drive shaft and the top brass worm gear so that truck can roll free.
To tear the trucks down for gear inspection, you are going to have to completely remove them from the chassis. The wires leading to the decoder from the trucks are held in place by those black push-on clips. Remove the clip and pull the wire out of the hole (when re-assembling, I prefer to solder them back on for a more positive connection .... may as well upgrade as you go).
Next, you need to remove the bottom cover which snaps in place. You should see little tabs on the sides of the cover - a small screw driver works best for freeing them. Once the cover is off, you can pull the side frames off. There is a brass contact strip on the back of them which "should" stay in place when you pull them off. Pay attention to which side is which so you can put them back together in the correct orientation. The wheels and axles will just lift out (or fall out) at this point.
You are down to a bare gearbox at this point. Bowser had two versions of gearboxes - the early runs snapped together and the later versions screwed together. If you have the screw together version, easy peazy. If you have the snap together version, it is held together by two thin friction pins, one at the front and one at the rear. Not knowing this, I snapped both of them off the first time I took a set apart ! Work carefully front to rear to pry them apart. If you try to do it all from one end, you will snap the opposite pin for sure.
As you pull it apart, watch for the gears inside. With all that grease, I doubt they will FALL out ! There are five gears - 1 large, 1 medium and 3 small. Again, note where they came from for when you put it back together.
Not sure what chemicals you have in your arsenal, but I use laquer thinners to wash out the gunk. Dissolves it quickly and won't hurt the plastic (delrin) parts. Once the gears are clean, you should be able to see the markings on the gears (only on one side) - you will need a magnifying glass as the print is very hard to see.
If it's a gear issue, disconnecting the drive shaft will not isolate it to one truck or the other. Even with the worm gear and drive shaft removed, from either truck, the axles will still turn, thereby turning the gears. Powered or not, they should "roll", and should be free rolling without the drive shaft connected. (Not quite as free rolling as a railcar, but, should still "roll" without much force being needed.)
To isolate if it is only one truck set or the other, you need to pull the trucks free of the frame. Then, taking one at a time, roll it down the track by hand. Note: They will still "roll", turning the wheels, and therefore the gears, but the sound may, or may not, be as pronounced as when it was under its own power. It might even totally disappear, as it may be occurring where the worm gear on the end of the drive shaft connects to the drive gear in the truck.
EDIT: And, to answer your question on motor(s), I see one motor with two flywheels. If, by "cans" you are referring to the round brass parts, thats the flywheels, the actual motor is between them.
Agree that there must be something wrong with the gearset(s). It certainly isn't lack of lube, and it has the right driveshafts. So wrong gears is a possibility.
Is there any reason why I can't run it with the front disconnected to see if it makes the same sort of noise with just the rear truck driving the loco? Might be valuable to know as I work along. If it runs much smoother then I can disconnect the rear and try it with just the front truck driving. The idea is to isolate the problem to the front or rear, or see if the problem is common to both trucks. But I don't want to fry the board or hurt the motor assembly doing this.
Leads to another question- is it a single motor with two cans and a connecting shaft or two totally separate motors? Remember I am a newbie at working on these and learning as I go.
OK, so the next step in disassembly is to flip it over and pull the bottom cover that clips on in a similar way to the worm gear cover. Then the wheel assemblies will come right out, but everything else will still be held together by the side plates, correct?
Is there a screw under the bottom cover that holds the truck assembly to the loco frame?
HObbyguy
Yea, whoever had this unit before put WAAAAAAY too much lubricant on those gears. At the very least clean all that goo off and relube it with a small...small amount of Labelle 106 & 102. At least you'll then be able to see any unnecessary or restricted movement of the mechanism.
Crap. Ok, you at least have the correct shafts.
Talked to a friend of mine last night and he recalls having a noise problem as well. In conversing with one of the guys from Bowser at the time, apparently some engines got some wrong sized gears installed. The wrong gears are slightly larger than what was supposed to be in it. Being slightly larger, they meshed too tight causing a grinding sound.
He substituted a set of gears from an Atlas RSD truck (because he had them on hand) and that solved his problem. The truck should roll easily with no resistance.
Check the part numbers on the gears (you'll need a magnifying glass) - the small gears should be T12, the medium gear T15 and the large gear T24. There is also a C number, but that just refers to the mold cavity.
And again - the grease is not the problem, but that much could easily cause electrical pickup trouble as it leaches out to the axle journals ....
OK here's the latest in the journey. I took the front side weight off and popped the worm gear cover. I was really hoping to find straight driveshafts in there because that would be a relatively easy fix. But scratch that one.
Then I pulled the worm and driveshaft assembly. There is tons of grease everywhere- thick and gooey like vaseline, but not at all hard.
I turned the wheels underneath and watched the drive gear spin. It was rougher than I expected- I could feel the gears meshing. But nothing seems to be binding or loose. Since I've never done this before I don't know what is normal.
I haven't pulled the rear assembly yet- waiting to hear back from you guys.
I should have named this thread "C-630 Disassembly in Pictures". I have a feeling that I will be going deeper yet.
Walt
HObbyguy Those axles float to help track through curves, so no problem there. The upgraded drive shafts are interesting- I need to check to see which ones my loco has. I don't remember seeing a section with the larger diameter like that but I could be wrong. All the grease outside the gearbox is not doing any good so I will definitely clean that up. But next step is still to get into the gearboxes to check them out, clean and lube depending on what I find. How do they come apart? And how do the driveshafts come out?
Those axles float to help track through curves, so no problem there.
The upgraded drive shafts are interesting- I need to check to see which ones my loco has. I don't remember seeing a section with the larger diameter like that but I could be wrong. All the grease outside the gearbox is not doing any good so I will definitely clean that up. But next step is still to get into the gearboxes to check them out, clean and lube depending on what I find. How do they come apart? And how do the driveshafts come out?
Remove the top worm gear cover on the truck and lift out the worm gear - the shaft will pull out of the flywheel and come out with the gear.
The grease (too much or not enough) is not causing that noise. I run mine almost dry (to avoid what I'm seeing in these pictures) and they don't make any noise. Does it get worse / better at different speeds ? If you have those straight shafts, that's where my money is ....
I dunno, I sort of think it IS a lack of lube - all the grease has migrated away from where it is supposed to be, so it looks overlubricated with grease oozing out, but I'll bet the gears are pretty dry. Also, if there IS so much grease caked in that it is oozing out, and it hasn't just migrated to one side, that can cause problems too. I would carefully disassemble it all and clean out the old grease and get some good stuff and lubricate it properly (I too use Labelle stuff, all plastic compatible, the grease for the gears and the light or medium oil for bearings). Warm soap and water will clean off the grease, just don't drop any parts down the drain (don;t ask). Wipe off any oozed grease on parts you can;t take off and wash. Dry everything thoroughly, then apply just a drop or two of grease to the worm and truck gears, and a tiny drop of oil to each bearing.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
HObbyguyIt looks OK except for all the globs of grease oozing out of everywhere.
So I was curious and I flipped one of my Alcos on her back...
It's like Déjà vu all over again!
My grease looks just like your grease (except for the cat hair!) This engine has been running (off and on) for over a year. Maybe these engines hit a tank truck of Clam Chowder at a grade crossing?
Judging by the sound and the amount of grease oozing out, I don't think lack of lube is your problem. You have to open the truck gear case. The frequency of the sound makes it out to be the same RPM as the wheels so it must be an idler gear or axle gear that needs attention.
My Life-Like geeps with the split axle gear have the same pulsating, grinding sound— however I have never heard of any split gear problems ever to come out of Montoursville.
I'm going to take a peek inside my gearcases and see how things are put together in there, AND get rid of all that excess grease... it collects cat hair!
This may sound bizarre, but it's true .... check the drive shaft.
In the picture below, the early run shafts are on the top and the upgraded shafts are on the bottom ....
I had a terrible time trying to find the source of that noise and I swore it was the gears. Even after swapping a complete set of gears the problem noise persisted. Ultimately, it was the early straight shaft that would vibrate at speed. The heavier shaft (provided free from Bowser) solved the problem.
If you have the straight shafts, replace them.