Every once in a while a change can mean a way to advance, or even just a way to maintain what we have.
I have been on these MR forums for just about eleven years now, and the last six or so saw quite a few lamentations that the threads here tend to be geared for newbies. They are therefore repetitive in nature, and few of us get much new from them once we have waded through a dozen or more.
What if....suppose...we could convince our hosts to have a sub-forum under the MR family that addressed strictly advanced hobby techniques? Scratchbuilding, weathering, how to modify coupler pockets, repairs to screw mounts, applying brass details to denuded generic locomotive or rolling stock bodies, advanced photography....the list goes on.
It won't take off like a lit fuse. It will require some caretakers who are willing to supply some time and some experience, and to type it out and post it. If we launch such a sub-forum, it might eventually become a great resource and meeting place, both for our hosts and for us, the modellers. Or, it might just be a thud.
Thoughts?
-Crandell
I disagree with your basic assumption that the newbie questions are somehow "weeds" that are preventing the "flowers" from growing. The advanced topics get discussed regularly and there is no significant clutter of newbie material that prevents me from finding them.
There is an interesting thread going on painting. One on double-deck benchwork. One on bridge building. Not long ago there was the scratchbuilt boxcab thread. Many non-newbie discussions over in the Electronics & DCC section... All in all, far more "advanced" content than you find in any of the magazines.
Besides, how do you propose to control access to your new advanced forum? Will we have to take a test? Present ideas to a selection committee and hope not to be blackballed?
Besides, if the newbie questions are so uninteresting, why do so many folks reply with the same answer that's already been posted 5 times?
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Crandell, I think you have forgotton the fact that we all were beginners in this hobby at one time.
I for one don't fret about beginner's questions.How else are they going to learn?
But, at the same time, there's plenty that aren't beginners and would like to get the more advanced education. The heavier duty topics do get a bit lost in the shuffle.
No, I see what he means, there should be a section with advanced way of doing things.
Perhaps Kalmbach could introduce some sort of flag that the OP could attach to the thread indicating that the topic is of an advanced nature. They could also establish a rule that would prevent members from posting any comments to the effect that the topic does not deserve an advanced designation in order to minimize the number of fire fights.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I can see major potential for backlash and accusations of elitism, as I've seen the same happen elsewhere.
Rob Spangler
wp8thsub I can see major potential for backlash and accusations of elitism, as I've seen the same happen elsewhere.
Agreed..I seen it too but,the issue was caused by those members that felt threaten by advanced modeling subjects and that old "its my layout!" was their battle cry..
Why didn't they just ignore the topic if advanced modeling/operation/ kitbashing wasn't their thing? That was a good solid forum but,its long gone since 2003 IIRC..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Wanting to change things is great, but some things will never change. People will ask the same question that was already asked 20 times in the past 10 years because they don't use the search - heck if they used search, they could search Google and find their answer, either via a link to the old thread here, or some other source of information. Can't fight it, might as well join and just post an answer, even though you may have posted the same answer 5 times in the past. It's not worth it to try to tell people to do a quick search, especially if the question is something that you as a veteran can answer right off the top of your head. Not really worth the bad feelings it sometimes causes since we are communicating in a medium that really does not allow emotional intent to carry through.
Not going to stop people from dredging up 5 year old threads and making a new reply, either. So don't bother trying. Though to be honest it would probably be useful if topics older than a year or two would become locked to prevent further reply. Some of us may have been here forever and continue to read the forums, but someone who started a topic 5 years ago may be long gone, so providing a reply might be nice in the spirit of trying to help out, but chances of the OP ever seeing your reply after 5 years are slim to none. I see the argument sometimes made that if the old threada are open, people will use them instead of starting a new one asking the same question for the umpteenth time (see above). Not too likely.
Even the print magaines go back and revist the same topics from tiem to time - just because there are X readers who have been subscribers for 10+ years, there are also Y people who have just picked up their first issue and want to know what this hobby is all about. If every issue had only advanced topics, how would a newbie ever learn? They'd drop the subscription and find a source that did offer beginner help. Likewise, if all the magazine did was offer beginner articles, how many would stay with it over the long haul? Most people would eventually want something more advanced once they've mastered the basics. It's a fine line and surely a nightmare for every editorial staff.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
As one of the NEWBIES here, I would like to point out that these forums were started to share knowledge and passion for the hobby. You aren't required to read every post.
i've been wondering why we don't see well known modelers and authors posting on these forums. I assume they don't have the time, or see anything of interest. (presumably they aren't inclined to provide free advice when they can write a book). I've noticed the same on other forums such as model sailplanes.
i've found my interest in most threads this year waning because they don't interest me and even if I can contribute, others have done so already. So now I quickly scan the forums for threads that interest me, that I can learn from. Few have interested me in the last half year.
there's nothing impeding well written posts on any topics, instead of simple how-do-i-do this type of thread. One thing that disuades me from reading a thread is a poor subject line (e.g. help?), usually indicating a newbie.
And I see no reason why one of these threads cannot cover an advanced technical topic with data, equations and graphics that could make a good magazine article or even an NMRA RP.
If you start a well thought out and well written thread on an any topic, it will be read and the more thoughful responses appreciated (while the less thoughtful will be ignored).
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Personally, one of the reasons I like these forums is the light touch Kalmbach's moderators apply. Other than weeding out the somewhat nasty threads on certain topics and reining in threads that get too vitupric they let us go.
To have an "advanced" only forum would require a heavy hand on threads and replies to keep it pure - so to speak. This would signifcantly change the tenor of the forums.
Plus MR puts a lot of effort into helping folks get started in this hobby. And they are the most successful model railroading magazine going. So covering beginner issues is probably what most folks want and need.
Of course you can go ahead and start an advanced topic thread. But I notice these peter out pretty fast and fall off the first page due to lack of responses.
So leave it alone is my vote.
Enjoy
Paul
And how many times do we 'experts' pick up somethng new or useful from coments in a newbee post? There are some good comments for all in many, as well as just another way of doing something. My
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
V8Vega What do's will th... mean?
What do's will th... mean?
G Paine And how many times do we 'experts' pick up somethng new or useful from coments in a newbee post? There are some good comments for all in many, as well as just another way of doing something. My
After 60 years in the hobby I can honestly say its a never ending learning process-unless one is similar to that horse/water thingy..
G PaineAnd how many times do we 'experts' pick up somethng new or useful from coments in a newbee post?
I do a lot of presentations in my day job. Even on a topic I've presented dozens of times myself, I still find value in watching another's presentation on the same subject. I may not learn anything new about the topic, but I often learn a better way to present it or a better way to answer a common question.
I think reading others posts to newbie questions can have the same value. How many times have you tried to explain the hobby to a non-modeler visiting? Ever wish you could think of a better way to get your points across?
carl425 <snip> ...basic assumption that the newbie questions are somehow "weeds" that are preventing the "flowers" from growing. <snip> ... if the newbie questions are so uninteresting, why do so many folks reply with the same answer that's already been posted 5 times?
<snip> ...basic assumption that the newbie questions are somehow "weeds" that are preventing the "flowers" from growing.
<snip>
... if the newbie questions are so uninteresting, why do so many folks reply with the same answer that's already been posted 5 times?
Perhaps Carl has distilled down some of the essence of the OP's disatisfaction.
It may be natural for more experienced or mature model hobbyists to find noobie topics or participation to be distracting or perhaps even annoying? Lets be realistic, these forum are unlikely to change significantly to mitigate those things so as is usually the case, it's up to individuals to find ways to improve their forum experience to be more satisfying to them.
How? I suppose the first rule to remember is (e.g.) it may be a bit like looking for the perfect church. As soon as you find it and join it, it's no longer perfect because usually we all bring our own worts and baggage along with us. Moral of the story, there is no perfect forum.
That said, there are forums out there that may cater more to our interests that others. I've perused the web and found a number of forums and after reading them long enough, found that some really weren't for me while others were more satisfying in terms of content and discussion. I've settled on several forums which I go to the most related to the hobby and there are a few others which I visit less often to the degree that I find them interesting or beneficial to me. That is probably the best anyone can do. Like anything else, if one isn't happy or satisfied, it's best to take steps to resolve it - which may mean possibly stepping away from an activity which ends up being a frustrating experience.
[philosopher hat] I used to be a moderator on a gaming forum of a MMORPG that I used to play - there were at times some members who were cronically unhappy and their posting habits exhibited it. Eventually I privately brought it to their attention how frustrated they seemed to be with the game etc. and did it make sense for them to continue being unhappy. Some realized yes, the really needed to step away and find something they enjoyed and that wasn't a source of day to day frustration - they took a break and were happier for it. It's all part of the bigger picture of finding what works for you and what doesn't. [/philospher hat]
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
To all respondants, thank-you!
I should clarify my position on the subject. I don't really care one way or another. I have no dog in the race other than to try to get the juices flowing in our arms and legs. It has been a slow summer, and at least one other lengthy thread hints at a malaise and sluggishnes here. I saw recent posts in that other thread where people expressed their reluctance to get involved in posts by newbies. That theme comes up as much as the one about DC vs. DCC....well, close anyway.
I have NOT changed my position that I have steadfastly maintained since I joined the forum: nobody should feel forced to contribute in any way they don't wish to. If we disagree with what we see, we have a number of remedies:
Get involved, correct misinformation, reach out privately using PM's and engage the other person, or complain to the mods...also privately. Those are our choices. Nobody holds our hands to the fire here.
That's my first position. The second is that our host's forums are only as good as our several contributions to it. Just like those appearing in their monthly issues, we see what we put there (okay, barring some adjustments to style due to editing).
My final point is that we too soon forget. As we mature, we lose sight of our own past with its insecurities, fears, and determination. How often do we see questions prefaced with, "Dumb question, but....?" Why should that be, except that it's the nature of each of our pasts, each of our own introductions and methods of inquiry?
Still, it's a question worth revisiting from time-to-time: what, if any, changes would improve or revitalize or help to modernize the forum? I have simply picked one that is obvious from recent discussions.
I do sincerely appreciate all your tempered responses. Now, let us continue to figure out if we need a change, and if so, what should it be. I'm sure our hosts are listening. They know we mean well.
Yodarian As one of the NEWBIES here, I would like to point out that these forums were started to share knowledge and passion for the hobby. You aren't required to read every post.
Thank you for speaking up.
It's the same reason I really don't understand why there's a problem. There is no shortage of electrons. Just because certain topics might be excluded from from such a forum doesn't mean that "good stuff" would be generated instead. I know, BTDT as a moderator myself. You can always skip over stuff that doesn't interest you because it's either too simple or too advanced. You can always contribute that advanced technique write-up, so if you're waiting for the cleansing of the great unwashed, it won't happen in any of our lifetimes considering that human are involved and they vary, a lot. Just do it or not, as your preference may be.
I probably answer at least my share of newbie questions. As an ex-scout, as well as a trainer and teacher, that's completely natural in terms of my participation.
Crandell,
You shouldn't worry about anyone forcing anyone to participate as I do. I don't understand how that's even possible, unless you're willing to do so to begin with. And I have no problem with people who just read stuff here and never contribute, either. It's their loss in foregoing more active participation IMO, but that's OK with me. People vary in their tastes for such things and how they interact. It's OK, really.
I do like the idea of an author being able to self-identify their own post as an advanced topic. I would hope everyone could just take that as good enough and not quibble over such decisions, too, assuming the software could support such a thing.
Obviously or maybe not, there's a way to do that now. People could simply start using the tag "advanced" or "advanced topic" when posting. Then readers who search would have that as an optional filter to use in finding what they need. Nice, neat solution, already available.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I'm going to be nice and simple about it - Just leave it the way it is! One size fits all.
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
While I'd enjoy seeing some more in-depth threads, both how-tos and discussions, I find that the current format works fairly well for the audience which it serves. That's really what causes the deeper stuff to get overlooked: new posts, whether from newbies asking the usual questions (a very valid and very valuable part of the mix, and I'm in no way suggesting it be changed) or from established members offering up pictures and advice from their latest projects tend to push the recent stuff from page one, and pretty soon it's out of sight, out of mind.
Over here bigbluetrains.com members are encouraged to put the more in-depth stuff into one of the appropriate sub-forums, along with as many photos as they wish. I can't say that the traffic viewing them is especially high after the initial flurry of interest, but they are there and available to reference at any time. No one minds it if someone stumbles onto something of interest and re-activates the discussion with a comment or query, as anyone who puts effort into their thread is usually pleased to see it being of use to another, whether a newbie or an old hand.
Naturally, not all input is at the same level, but I think that better suits the varied viewing audience, allowing you to peruse the stuff which you find interesting and ignore those "too easy" or "too hard".
While we do have moderators there, most members are self-moderating, and I see no reason why it couldn't be similar here.
Wayne
Are you proposing that the new forum would be a place for show and tell by people who think they have a new solution to a problem or a new idea?
I think that would require some effort that might be more than what some of the posters here are willing to expend. And then there would be the discouragement factor when the author of said post counts up the number of views and replies. "Hey, is anyone out there listening?"
Take a look at the posts with the largest numbers of views/replies. We have "things that irritate modelers" with 3660+ views and 85 replies; "best big boy in HO", a 5-year old thread with 16,303 views/49 replies; "MTH Alco PA", a 3-year old thread with 5876 views/21 replies; MR magazine 75 year collection", a year old thread with 7268 views/34 replies; "who reads all the forums", only a day old but already has 1020 views/44 replies; and the famous Diner threads that get reincarnated every month (probably need a super computer to count up the views/replies to those Seinfeld threads).
{by the way, I am not attacking the individuals who started the above threads; those threads are only being used as examples}
Now compare those numbers to the various threads where someone does a show and tell. An example would be "Project Arbutus Bridge" which has 1258 views/25 replies. Not bad, but that thread has already been relegated to page 2.
Maybe it is human nature, but from what I can tell it is usually the complaint threads that seem to elicit the largest response.
selector What if....suppose...we could convince our hosts to have a sub-forum under the MR family that addressed strictly advanced hobby techniques? Scratchbuilding, weathering, how to modify coupler pockets, repairs to screw mounts, applying brass details to denuded generic locomotive or rolling stock bodies, advanced photography....the list goes on.
First and foremost, Kalmbach isn't going to create another forum or a subforum. They never do, so why now?
Second, as soon as you create a subforum on advanced hobby techniques, newbies, midbies and oldbies will all join in anyhow unless you limit participation to those who are skilled in advanced hobby techniques.
Why not just start a thread on an advanced hobby technique?
Rich
Alton Junction
maxman Take a look at the posts with the largest numbers of views/replies. We have "things that irritate modelers" with 3660+ views and 85 replies; "best big boy in HO", a 5-year old thread with 16,303 views/49 replies; "MTH Alco PA", a 3-year old thread with 5876 views/21 replies; MR magazine 75 year collection", a year old thread with 7268 views/34 replies; "who reads all the forums", only a day old but already has 1020 views/44 replies; and the famous Diner threads that get reincarnated every month (probably need a super computer to count up the views/replies to those Seinfeld threads).
maxman, that is great stuff. I would be in favor of a subforum devoted to the revival of old threads..............the older, the better.
If the forum had a search function that actually worked, there wouldn't all the repeats of "basic stuff". I recently posted a question about decals, knowing full well there were probably a dozen or more of the same question buried somewhere. But trying to find it is frustrating, so I reposted.
I'm not complaining, but having a section for the 'elite' or 'advanced' modeler seems out of character for this hobby.
South Penn
I participate in 4 forums and all of them are model railroading related. Aside from this one, I am a member of two UK based forums and one Swiss special interest forum. Neither of those three forums is segemented into a "newbie" and "pro"-section, but all three are much more lively and dialogue-oriented than this one. They are structured differently and have a lot more sub-categories than the MR forum. The basic structure is nearly identical:
Manufacturer´s News
Rolling Stock
Layout Topics
Workbench
Hints, Tips and Modelling Help Queries
Electrics and Electronics
Prototype
Moments of Inspiration
Notice Board
General Modelling Discussion
Bulrushes - the off-topic section
Most of these forums also habe a trading section, but that´s not really an issue.
I think having better categories helps to adress the right audience and also makes searching for info a lot easier.
Just food for thought ...
Ulrich:
I like the idea of having more categories. I especially like the 'workbench' category idea. I think having such a category might encourage more modelers to share what projects they are working on. There obviously doesn't have to be any 'expert' or 'novice' deliniation. Just show us what you are doing.