I'm still in the planning stages of my layout but I was thinking about adding a few Amtrack trains. I know I would need big curves and a big layout but right now I'm just looking for someone that might be running this equipment or knows a web site or group that does That could give me some ideas. (CSX mid 80's to around 2005)
Hi, Gator and Welcome!
You could browse at this site and ask questions there:
http://acmodels.boards.net/
Operating Amtrak or any other passenger equipment on our "compressed" sized layouts always necessitates compromise, as you have already mentioned.
There is plenty of Amtrak equipment out there, Con-Cor and Athearn come to mind, that is reduced in length and designed to operate on 18" radius curves.
Over the years CSX was host to many eastern Amtrak trains and some were smaller regional trains that may run only three or four cars, just right for our reduced size empires.
Have fun, Ed
Well, if you want to run your AMTK trains across vistas, wide curves, etc... That is one thing, but there are other ways of running AMTK.
Picture a terminal somewhere... If you want CSX then call it Norfork VA, and design a terminal operation. Pax train comes in from hiding and into the station. Switchers must come out and take the train apart, diners, maybe sleepers go to the cleaning tracks, train is rebuilt and gets ready for its departure later in the day.
Maybe a couple of commuter trains come in and depart during rush hours, There may be a CSX yard near by. You do not need big sweeping curves, or the ones that you do have can be hidden behind buildings and other scenic elements.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I can help with your question. It depends on the CSX train you want to run. I could give a few examples.
(CSX tracks) Palmetto, Silver Meteor, Auto Train.
(shared with NS and CSX tracks) The Lake Shore Limited, Cardinal, Carolinians, Capital Limited, Crescent, Silver Star.
I hope this helps a little, but more information would be better.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
Gator,
If you want to run full length passenger cars on your layout, I recommend an absolute minimum of 30" radius. And I strongly recommend 48" radius. Or even larger, if you can. This would be mainline only. Where you're switching freight it can get a lot smaller.
It's just been pointed out that model manufacturers produce passenger cars that will work on 18" curves. And, generally, the are shrunken in length to do that. And then those cars aren't actually models of anything--they're adaptations.
You'll need to decide on the minimum mainline radius. If you choose "small", you will NOT be able to run an awful lot of passenger car models. But you'll get a whole lot more track in.
Decisions, decisions.
Lion pointed out that you can limit the amount of the layout that accepts passenger cars. A variation on what he's talking about is to have a wide radius circle of track all around a room. For 3 sides, it's covered by a little dinky branchline. So the big mainline trains just come and go at the interchange on one side. And the branch line has little bitty curves. And the mostly hidden mainline has wide curves. It's an idea.
Ed
The original poster did not mention what scale he is planning to model in but it looks like most/all have assumed HO based on the figures and information. If it is other than HO, Gator should let us know.
Yes, decisions, decisions.
If HO, I'd agree with the 30-inch absolute minimum although not many home layouts can manage 48-inch curves at it tends to severely limit track plans for the typical home space. I had to go with an around the wall layout in my 10x18' room to get my 32-inch minimum. Most scale length passenger cars (85') require minimum radii of arond 22 or 24 inches, depending on the model and make in HO, and it's usually very wise to not go with that minimum if you can help it.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Sorry Rio Yes HO. Sometimes I forget there are other scales beside HO I have a lot of ideas in my head and a lot unreal or unfeasable ones too. Like a 3 engine 20-30 car Amtrak running out side attached to my fence with a run of 200' on 48" curves
I run Amtrak's Southwest Chief on my HO scale layout. It is pulled by a pair of Athearn AMD-103 P-42 locos. The consist is all Walthers 85’ Superliners plus an express box car on the end. The Walthers cars run on 22” radius track. So do Athearn bombardier commuter cars and Rivarossi 85’ passenger cars which I also run. The Athearn and Walthers cars have coupler pockets which pivot allowing them to go around the curves. Rivarossi cars have talgo trucks with coupler adapters.
In all I run Amtrak's Southwest Chief, three Metrolink commuter trains, and a Santa Fe steam excursion.
A nice passenger train can be the star of your layout. I hope this helps. Enjoy.
I am surprised to hear that Walthers Superliners can take 22" curves.
That could certainly be a convenience.
Whichever your choice of curve radius and rolling stock, best wishes and have fun.
7j43k I am surprised to hear that Walthers Superliners can take 22" curves. That could certainly be a convenience. Ed
I own Walthers Superliners but never checked the box to see what the minimums are, but I went to the Walthers Website to check and here is what they say:
PLEASE NOTE: As these cars are the correct prototype length and feature full underbody detail to match the prototypes, a minimum 24" radius is recommended for operation.
That is the caption from plated Superliners page:
https://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-16164
Twenty four inch minimums are more common for long HO train cars of 85 or 89 feet these days.
I posted a thread earlier this year after I noticed that Walthers was supplying an extended draft gear assembly in their recent Proto deliveries:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/246143.aspx
Maybe using these will alleviate some problems with tight radius but probably not much help down to 18".
https://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/920-9400
{edit} I found in the above link where it mentions the extended draft gear allowing operation on 22" R.
Ed, the extended draft gear should help those who are living on the edge of how tight a radius you can trick your trains around.
Per the "30-inch Radius Ain't What it Used to be" topic, even 30-inches looks pretty sharp under long cars - but well, they should at least operate well on it.
Back when John Armstrong penned his Track Planning for Realistic Operation, he labeled curves as follows: 18" - sharp, 24" conventional, 30" broad. Well, that was back in the 1960's or 70's. These days I think many would change the labeling to: 18" - very sharp, 24" - sharp, 30" - conventional, 40"+ broad.
I remember noticing in most of the layout articles in MR back starting in the 1980's, most had 30" minimum radii on their mainlines. These days many are a bit higher but not much (for minimums).
My layout is 22" radius and my (nonplated) superliners run fine. The newer releases might be different.
I didn't buy this train set but I remember when it was new in the 1990s. It came with 22" radius track.
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/931-42
The only cars in my collection that don't take 22" curves are Accurail 89' Trailer Train flat cars. It's because of their rigid body mounted couplers.
Lone Wolf and Santa Fe My layout is 22" radius and my (nonplated) superliners run fine. The newer releases might be different. I didn't buy this train set but I remember when it was new in the 1990s. It came with 22" radius track. http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/931-42 The only cars in my collection that don't take 22" curves are Accurail 89' Trailer Train flat cars. It's because of their rigid body mounted couplers.
Yes, my Superliners are all before the plated versions from the earlier days made in the late 1990's or early 2000's. But It may be that Walthers has upgraded the Superliners with more details etc. per the disclaimer so the newer ones may require 24-inch curves. Probably a very good idea that any one who is building a layout for passenger service boost their curve radii above 24 inches to be sure they can operate most passenger cars they buy - 28-inch radii is a good rock bottom minimum.
I used to have a bunch of the Accurail 89' TOFC flat cars but sold most of them off when the nicer Walthers, Atlas and Genesis versions were released. However, I kept a few particular ones like the brown Trailer Train version and the white ATSF version because those were never offered in the "all purpose" style from those other makers. I haven't tested how small a radius they can take because I don't have any curves less than 28-inches (thats my KATO Unit track) but I do note the Accuraill 89' cars have a pocket that swings - it is not ridged. I think it's made to lock when pushing but will swing when pulling. It should allow some latitude for sharper curves due to the draft gear swing - although it doesn't swing as much as the Walthers type used under their 89' autoracks etc. IIRC.
First rule: Don't be restrained by what other people tell you you should or should not do. It's you railroad, you run whatever the heck you want. The hobby is supposed to be fun, right? :)
IIRC, back in the 1980s, Amtrak still ran a lot of heritage fleet cars on their long distance trains. In the areas I lived, shorter trains were usually run with Amcans, and I believe a single F40PH could handle up to six of them.
You could re-create the feel of Amtrak with a single F40 and 3-6 of the shortie cars (Athearn, etc). An MHC (boxcar), a baggage car, three coaches with a diner mixed in would meka a nice representative train. Or do an F40 with 3 or 4 Amfleet cars, though the 85' cans will take up more real estate (and you might not be happy with the way they look on 18" curves, though I think they'lldo just fine on 22s).
Another way to sneak in a little passenger operation: Run a tourist railroad. A Geep or an F or two with some shortie heavyweights would do. Or contract the job out to Amtrak! :)
gator63 I'm still in the planning stages of my layout but I was thinking about adding a few Amtrack trains. I know I would need big curves and a big layout but right now I'm just looking for someone that might be running this equipment or knows a web site or group that does That could give me some ideas. (CSX mid 80's to around 2005)
For the later part of that period, the Capitol Limited (Washington-Chicago, over the old B&O), Cardinal (Washington-Chicago via Indianapolis, the old C&O), and the Auto Train (Lorton, VA to Sanford, FL on the old ACL) would have used Superliners in the latter years of your period (the Cardinal eventually converted to Amfleet and Viewliner equipment, but I can't for the life of me remember when). The Silver Service trains (NYC-FL) use a combination of Heritage, Amfleet and Viewliner equipment even now; IIRC, they started off with Heritage equipment, but shed it as the Am IIs and Viewliners entered service. F-40s gave way to P-40s and then P-42s in the 90s. Material handling cars were common in the 1990s, when the express business was going, but came off toward the end of your period.
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
Autonerd First rule: Don't be restrained by what other people tell you you should or should not do. It's you railroad, you run whatever the heck you want. The hobby is supposed to be fun, right? :)
I don't think anyone in this topic has broken the First rule. I see only suggestions and warnings. And support.
But considering that a rule DOES tell people what and what not to do, isn't the First rule telling people not to follow rules. Including the First rule, I presume.
A puzzlement!
Welcome Gator
Is there any part of the CSX that you prefer? It might help with some suggestions.
With the timeframe you are talking about, are you thinking of CSX areas prior to the Conrail merger or is that additonal territory included?
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
The area I like to modle is East of the Mississippi and South of the Mason Dixon line. I like the Super liners from the 80's to 90's look.
Then the "Cardinal" and "Capitol Limited" are the trains you want to research. Both used Superliner equipment for part of the period in question. Consists always vary, but in recent years, the Capitol typically ran with 2-3 P-42s, a Heritage bag, a Superliners transition-dorm, a pair of sleepers, a diner, a Sightseer lounge, and 3 coaches, usually in that order. That ran west out of Washington up the Metropolitan Sub, through Harpers' Ferry to Cumberland, then over Sand Patch to Pittsburgh, and then on to Chicago (but that part was on NS).
I would go with the Capitol Limited, and also on thinking on planning the CSX Magnolia Cutoff I have a train list from 1989-1996.
Heritage Fleet Consist
1989- 2 F40, 2 MHC, 2 Baggage, 2 Coach (Amfleet), 1 Dome Coach, 1 Lounge, 1 Dining car, 2 sleeper
1991-Just add 2 more MHC.
Superliner Consist
1995- 2 F40, 3 MHC, 1 Baggage, 1 Dormitory Coach, 3 Coach, 1 Lounge (SII/IV), 1 Diner (SII/IV), 3 Sleeper (SII/IV)
1996- 1 F40, 1P40, 2 MHC, 1 Baggage (IV), 1 Transition Sleeper (IV), 2 Sleeper, 1 Diner (IV), 1 Lounge (IV), 3 Coach.
·SII/IV- Superliner II in Phase IV.
Unmarked coaches and locomotives are Phase III.
Modern Day Consist
2 P42, 1 Baggage, 1 Transition Sleeper, 2 Sleeper, 1 Diner, 1 Lounge, 1 Coach-Baggage, 2 Coach.
For a totally legit "Pike Sized Passenger Train" for Amtrak, you could always model the "New England Express" trains that Amtrak ran in the early- to mid-1990's on the NEC from New York to Boston. These were just before electification started, and were high speed trains meant to compete with the air shuttles.
The "New England Express" trains were strictly 4 cars long: 3 AmCoaches, 1 AmCafe (on the rear) and hauled by either 1 AEM-7 or 1 F40PH. This would have been all "Phase III" paint (three equal stripes) in that era.
These trains ran hourly, IIRC, and had the fastest carded time for conventional trains at 3 hours 50 minutes. The fastest the old New Haven RR could do was 3 hours 55 minutes. These were "hot" Amtrak trains and ran at 110mph where possible. And they did overlap into the CSX takeover of Conrail in 1996.
Good luck!Paul A. Cutler III
It's always been my desire to model an 1980's Amtrak California Zephyr accurately. For much of it's life it was a combined train between Denver and somewhere in Utah where the Pioneer and the Desert Wind sections were split off and headed to Washington State and Los Angeles.
I road the combined CZ-Pioneer-Desert Wind in 1990 while it was still in it's traditional red-white-blue F40PH consist. That particular train west-bound out of Denver had 4 F40PH's, 3 MHC cars, a baggage, 2 Ex-ATSF ElCapitan hi-level cars, and 12 Superliner I cars. The ATSF bi-levels included the usual transition-dorm/coach behind the baggage car and a diner at the end of the train to assist the Superliner I diner with the extra large number of passengers; it was a 17 car train that day. More typical of the Amtrak CZ were 10 superliner cars, on trasition car and a couple of baggage cars which in later years were suplanted with MHC cars.
7j43k But considering that a rule DOES tell people what and what not to do, isn't the First rule telling people not to follow rules. Including the First rule, I presume. Ed
But considering that a rule DOES tell people what and what not to do, isn't the First rule telling people not to follow rules. Including the First rule, I presume. Ed
1st Thanks to all that posted for a lot of information on this subject I learned a lot . I have one more question than I will let this subject die. What percent of sleepers to coachs and diners to lounges would you see on a typical run say say KC to Orlando or Boston to New Orleans? Just trying to get a little more info Thanks.
Hi
I have alot of Amtrak equipment as I too love to model passenger rail service. I have the Walthers older Superliners that were built from the late 90s early 00s and a few of the new steel plated ones built within the last two years. I also have a Viewliner which are expensive and rare to find. And then I have both Bachmann and Walthers Amfleet cars.
My experience is that the older Walthers Superliners will run on 22'' radius and you can buy the longer shank couplers to give you more wiggle room on those curves.
The Newer Superliners however need longer curves probably about 24-26 inches to run including the Walther's Amfleets. They will derail constantly on anything shorter most likely smaller as I found out. Viewliner ran fine on 24 inch radius. Wasn't able to test them on 22'' though.
The Bachmann ran fine on 22'' radius and even managed the 18'' but I wouldn't chance it as it looked like they were about to derail at some point.
Love to hear others who model Amtrak.
Regg
Autonerd As a young modeler, I had a lot of people tell me what I could and could not do, and it made the hobby rather intimidating (I never did get a layout built). I eventually got out of the hobby. Now I'm back in, doing whatever it is I please, and having more fun!
Yeah. If you're not having fun playing with trains, you probably should quit and take up a hobby!
There's no direct route to Kansas City to Orlando without taking multiple destinations. Example KCY, CHI, WAS, ORL or KCY, CHI, PGH, PHL, ORL.
I do know that the Crescent. New York (Boston) to New Orleans. Consist includes, 2 P42, 1 Baggage, 2-3 Viewliner Sleeper, 1 Lounge and Diner, with 4 Coaches.
If you want the connection routes I'll post it.