I assume that a number of you already received the e-mail flier from Broadway Limited for their 6K gallon tank cars. What I wasn't prepared for was the asking price.
I always enjoyed assemblying the Proto 2000 tanker kits, as it usually ended up being a 2-night project. (The very first one took me ~8 hrs to assemble. I was able to get that time down to ~4 hrs after the 2nd kit.) So, I thoroughly understand the complexity (and expense) of the hand-labor involved for this particular project. That said, that's a chunk-of-change for a piece of RTR rolling.
I hope those tankers are profitable for Broadway Limited. Personally, I'm glad I snatched up as many of the remaining Proto 2000 and IM 8K & 10K tanker kits as I did at my old LHS. I'm also grateful to have had the hand skills and patience to put them together.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I'll second that. I want more tank car kits. I think I have 1 left unbuilt at this point. I never wanted any of the location specific road names - mine are all the genric UTLX and GATX ones. I probably don't NEED more tank cars, but I love tank cars. Hmm, I might know where there some of the IM kits hanging around - never tried those.
I never had one of the Timesaver versions of the P2K, mine were all the full kits. My first one, I gave up in frustration and put it away. Once I got back to it, I figured out some of the secrets and I got them down to an hour or so to build. I hadn't done one for a while and then went back to them, and I had to once again take my time and remember all the tricks I had figured out - didn't help I was doing it away from home while in a hotel for work, but I was fresh out of "easy" kits like Athearn and Accurail.
Wonder if BLI is going to sell them as singles too. One of the smaller ones would make a nice contrast to the 8K and 10K cars. I don't think they're too out of line on the price, have you checked Kadee cars lately?
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I've enjoyed assembling every P2K kit that came down the pike! I still have a dozen or so mill gons and maybe a Mather stock car or two to put together yet. I look at the price sticker on the box, and even adjusted for inflation, is still very reasonable.
I'm sure glad Life-Like was wise enough to add a few extra grab irons on the sprue, though. I'll bet there's still dozens lodged in the carpet and in the vacuum cleaner bag!
I'll hold off on the BLI four packs. Maybe they will release individual cars later like they did with the PRR H32 covered hoppers. MB Klein had some on sale for around $25 each.
{edit} insert link: http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Broadway-Limited-HO-H32-Hopper-PRR-p/bli-1885.htm
Actually, if BLI did an assorted four pack I might bite, but I don't want four of the same car.
Tanks for the memories, Ed
Randy,
Although not as complicated as the Protos, the IM tankers are very nice kits and worth a look - i.e. should you find any at an LHS or train show. I have (6) Proto and (3) IM tankers in my fleet, which should suffice. (Course, I could be talked into another kit at any point. ) And I, too, generally purchase more of the generic tankers but did pick up a Canfield Oil Co. tank car because of the era and it's home-base of NE Ohio.
Doh! I looked at that ad and saw the 4-pack but it didn't register. (I thought they were asking that for one car! ) So, you're right, Randy - the cost per car is not that unreasonable.
Yea, I would agree, Ed. Should they release some singles of those I might be interested in picking up one, since I don't have any 6K tankers in my fleet, or with that type railing around the dome - like the Pittsburgh Plate Glass.
tstage,I just searched on eBay, and there are several P2K tank car kits unassembled for sale right now. Looks like $10 to $20 ea.
Is there really a need to bring a kit back when so many of the old ones are still for sale?
Paul A. Cutler III
gmpullmanActually, if BLI did an assorted four pack I might bite, but I don't want four of the same car.
Copy that. I don't know why manufacturers haven't done this yet. Seems like the only mixed packs you ever see are wild mixes of really cheap cars that vary greatly in type, locale, and era. I would be happy to buy some "mixed" packs of cars for filling out my rolling stock. The manufacturer makes a sale, and I get a pack of decent cars of the same era. Win-win.
Mike
The reason so many kits are still available is because no body bought them. Face it , everyone who replied to this thread is a builder, there are not many of us left.
I lament that the Intermountain N scake kits are long gone. The Intermountain kits sold for $12.95 and I have dozens of them. The RTR ones are much more !
I am not so sure that RTR cars are the "conflict diamonds" of our hobby and don't really care much if they are.
But---I try to think of it from the seller's standpoint and that tells me that if I can get more $$$ for something by having it assembled by children, prisoners, and slaves then that is where my fortune lies.
They work for almost nothing and quality control is a blow to the head.
Then again, isn't that true about much of the other stuff we buy today?
I don't think kits are coming back until the current supply is depleted and the manufacturers can figure a way to con us into paying them for NOT doing something. Like putting the darned thing together.
Offshore may someday mean other planets or perhaps the moon.
Charlie
My first Proto car was bought off the "used" table at the LHS. It was an unpainted stockcar kit in a clear plastic bag with no label, instructions or any other literature. According to the salesperson, it was supposedly a pre-production sample but he wasn't aware of the source or manufacturer and the parts carried no identifying marks. The Proto kits were not yet on the market, at least here in Canada, so I was unaware of them. I payed, if I recall correctly, $2.00, although I couldn't tell if I was buying a complete kit or merely a bunch of parts. At least it looked interesting, and I later learned it's origin.By the look of the trucks, which weren't included, I think this is it:
I replaced all of the oversize plastic grabirons with metal ones, first plugging the oversize holes with styrene rod.I liked their tank cars, too, when they were introduced but the price deterred me, and it wasn't until they introduced the r-t-r versions that the in-stock kits (as well as those bought but not assembled or partially assembled, usually poorly) began to appear at bargain prices. I bought more stockcars (modifiying them as the original) and a number of tank cars, too. These were stripped of paint and lettering (mostly too modern or too unlikely for my modelling era and area), then all of the plastic grabs and railings were replaced with wire parts, bent to suit. Most were lettered with C-D-S dry transfers, like this car:
I also replaced the plastic grabs and stirrup steps on Intermountain and Red Caboose cars - the metal parts are much easier to handle than the supplied plastic ones, and have a more-to-scale appearance.
Red Caboose tankcar with Black Cat lettering:
Intermountain tankcar with factory lettering:
I'm currently building a Tangent 3-dome 6,000gal. tankcar (bought as an undecorated kit), and am replacing all those too-fragile plastic grabirons, steps, ladders, and railings with metal parts.
LifeLike Canada also released Dominion/Fowler boxcars in their Proto1000 line, but these r-t-r cars all had free-standing grabirons, albeit plastic ones. Their $40.00 price tag precluded them from my shopping list, but due to a lettering error on some, LLC offered a free exchange programme - the incorrectly-lettered body shells to be exchanged for new, properly-done ones. The LHS sold the returned shells for $2.00 apiece, but by the time I learned of it, there were only a few left - I bought them all and have continued to pick-up more of the complete cars at train shows, also for more reasonable prices. The prototypes were extremely common cars in Canada, from the teens into the late '50s/early '60s, and could be seen all across North America.
I used an X-Acto #19 chisel blade to remove the lettering, then removed all of the grabirons, along with the sill steps, and replaced them with metal parts - the grabs all had to be bent to suit, as they're a non-standard width. I also replaced the roofwalks with board-by-board ones constructed of Evergreen strip styrene - the models' original roofwalks were a scale 6" short on both ends. Here's one under re-construction:
...and a couple in-service CNR cars:
I used C-D-S dry transfers to letter 14 cars for CNR, CPR, and TH&B, and I continue to wait for New England Rail Services to release their much superior version of these cars, but I'm not holding my breath.
Wayne
I'm sure it was just me, but I never was able to complete a Proto 2000 kit except the "time saver" ones--and not that well on those, either. Nothing ever seemed to want to fit where it was supposed to, and when compared to my Red Caboose and IM kits, they never really ever looked quite "right". But the kits I really miss are the old Red Caboose wood reefer ones--they just locked up together slowly and surely like magic.
Now I've been in the hobby since the old Metal Athearns, so I've never had trouble with kits (Ambroid 1 in 5000, anyone?), and I certainly have the patience and skills with fingers (I'm a musician) to look at all those little parts and grin and say, "Hello, there, here we go---" But for some strange reason, a Proto 2000 kit was just like coming up against a brick wall, full force. And I think, after so many tries, it probably just became purely psychological, lol. But bring me some IM or Red Caboose, and I'll be the Happiest of Campers.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Randy StahlFace it , everyone who replied to this thread is a builder, there are not many of us left.
Back when these kits were new, relatively few hobbyists had the skills to assemble them. Manufacturers like Proto 2000 and Intermountain helped spur today's trend toward RTR because of that.
Rob Spangler
Did anyone else notice the $130 price tag is for a 4-pack? That's $32.50 per car, which is unfortunately typical for high-end freight cars anymore, or even cheaper. Look at the retail price for the cars from Kadee, Athearn Genesis, Proto, and even Bachmann, and BLI's price doesn't seem so extreme!
I also miss the P2K kits. I could pick one up for not much more than a Blue Box or Accurail kit, and they turn out looking so much nicer!
EDIT: Just took another look through the posts, and the 4-pack was noticed.
_________________________________________________________________
gmpullman Actually, if BLI did an assorted four pack I might bite, but I don't want four of the same car.
Maybe you could find 4 modellers who feel the same way, and arrange swaps.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
wp8thsub Randy Stahl Face it , everyone who replied to this thread is a builder, there are not many of us left. Back when these kits were new, relatively few hobbyists had the skills to assemble them. Manufacturers like Proto 2000 and Intermountain helped spur today's trend toward RTR because of that.
Randy Stahl Face it , everyone who replied to this thread is a builder, there are not many of us left.
Really? I've been at this for 45 years and know lots of people in this hobby with good kit building skills - then and now. In fact I managed a train department in a hobby shop in the 80's and we sold a fair percentage of advanced kits.
This hobby has evolved - or devolved depending on your point of view - but today many of those in this hobby would not have been in it 20 or 25 years ago - because you had to build kits. I don't know or care if many of todays modelers can learn kit building skills, but it is clear many don't want to.
I never found Proto2000 kits to be a problem - but I was building Silver Streak wood kits at age 12.........
Sheldon
steemtraynMaybe you could find 4 modellers who feel the same way, and arrange swaps
If past practice is any indication, by the time the second run comes along they will be sold in pairs or singles similar to the course taken by the PRR covered hoppers BLI originally marketed in four packs.
There's usually a few Ebay sellers that will break up the four packs, too... for a price.
I'll wait and see if they are offered at MB Klein after the initial buying spree cools off.
Now that I have looked at BLI's offering more closely, they ARE offering two, four pack sets of mixed cars: Set A and set B!
http://www.broadway-limited.com/61266000gallontankcarvarietyseta4-packhobrowncoshipperscarlineethylcorpstaufferchem.aspx
and
http://www.broadway-limited.com/61276000gallontankcarvarietysetb4-packhowyandottechemcorpelectrobleachinggasconiagaraalkaliniagarasmelting.aspx
If you don't see me for a while, I'll be in the corner eating my hat
Regards, Ed
ATLANTIC CENTRAL wp8thsub Randy Stahl Face it , everyone who replied to this thread is a builder, there are not many of us left. Back when these kits were new, relatively few hobbyists had the skills to assemble them. Manufacturers like Proto 2000 and Intermountain helped spur today's trend toward RTR because of that. Really? I've been at this for 45 years and know lots of people in this hobby with good kit building skills - then and now. In fact I managed a train department in a hobby shop in the 80's and we sold a fair percentage of advanced kits. This hobby has evolved - or devolved depending on your point of view - but today many of those in this hobby would not have been in it 20 or 25 years ago - because you had to build kits. I don't know or care if many of todays modelers can learn kit building skills, but it is clear many don't want to. Sheldon
Many of us have been in the hobby 30, 40, 50 years - but I don't see the point in repeating it ad nauseum - it kinda goes without saying.
I don't think people shied away from the hobby just because "you had to build kits" 15 or 20 years ago. I don't enjoy building kits much, but I like model trains so I built them. To me it was a necessary evil and apparently many others felt the same way and have been voting with their wallets since the HQ RTR stuff began being produced as evidenced by the shift in production - noted by Rob Spangler.
I guess my shift to mainly RTR puts me in the naughty corner! Anyway, here we go again, for the umpteenth time here in MR forums - for some reason people can't let this dead horse truly die. /rant
Back on topic of bringing back Proto 2000 kits. Walthers likely won't be doing this (as many know they took over the product from Life Like). At the 4 or 5 train shows I go to each year, I see boxes and boxes of kits at vendor tables - and many are the Proto 2000 kits, including the tank cars.
Bottom line is (back to the title of the topic), we don't need to bring back Proto 2000 kits because, guess what? They never left - they've just moved to different venue's. Visit train shows or Ebay and you're good to go!
Cheers
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
When I started 40 years ago I hated building kits but sometimes I did it if I wanted that particular car or building. Nobody I knew liked building kits and I guess now most don't.
The RTR cars from the likes of tangent, Bluford, Walther's proto and many others are incredible. Nothing in kit form can compare. Expensive, yes but I rather have quality then quantity.
gmpullman steemtrayn Maybe you could find 4 modellers who feel the same way, and arrange swaps If past practice is any indication, by the time the second run comes along they will be sold in pairs or singles similar to the course taken by the PRR covered hoppers BLI originally marketed in four packs. There's usually a few Ebay sellers that will break up the four packs, too... for a price. I'll wait and see if they are offered at MB Klein after the initial buying spree cools off. Now that I have looked at BLI's offering more closely, they ARE offering two, four pack sets of mixed cars: Set A and set B! 6126 6000 Gallon Tank Car, Variety Set A, 4-pack, HO (Brown Co, Shippers Car Line, Ethyl Corp., Stauffer Chem.) and 6127 6000 Gallon Tank Car, Variety Set B, 4-pack, HO (Wyandotte Chem Corp, Electro Bleaching Gas Co., Niagara Alkali, Niagara Smelting) If you don't see me for a while, I'll be in the corner eating my hat Regards, Ed
steemtrayn Maybe you could find 4 modellers who feel the same way, and arrange swaps
Can I have a bite?
20 years ago the transition began, but 40 years ago this hobby was populated mostly by craftsman who liked to build stuff. I'm not one of those who believe that "building more of your own stuff" makes you a "real model railroader" - I buy RTR as much as I buy kits.
I do however enjoy building as much as I have time for, I like buiding stuff. That has always been a a big part of the attraction to the hobby for me.
And a great deal of the RTR I do buy gets some sort of upgrades or personalization before it hits the layout.
Others find their creative outlet just in building the scenery/layout - that's fine.
But my point stands, years ago a greater percentage of modelers were the "craftsman" type builders, today, it has shifted in a major way. That did not happen overnight, like I said, it started many years ago.
I think my point is valid that if you still had to build everything many who are in the hobby today would not be. That is not a criticism, just an OBSERVATION.
And it is a self fullfilling evolution. First a company creates better quality afordable RTR - Proto and Spectrum, over 20 years ago now - then more people who are less interested building stuff expand their interest/activity in the hobby, then more manufacturers shift to that market, and even more "non builder types" enter the hobby, and so on.
Mean while, manufacturers continued to make kits even as sales declined because they were already "invested".
Mean while older craftsman type modelers are dieing off or getting out of the hobby/less active/purchasing less as their layouts "mature".
Mean while fewer young people are interested in skills like model building due to a host of cultural shifts.
Mean while kit sales stall faster than companies can shift their focus/producton, leaving the current train show "inventory" of kits.
To assume that because you never liked building kits that all or most modelers throught time have been just "waiting" for high quality RTR is to not understand the history or dynamic of the progression described above.
I get it, you never see me post "Bring back Blue Box kits" or whine about prices or the availablity of kits.
Prices - -I pay them or I don't, I don't begrudge any seller of any product a reasonable profit and because I know the inner workings of this business I know there is little or no price gouging.
But I do look at some of this RTR and say "no thanks", the Athearn blue box or craftsman kit I have already built is just fine. I still have large fleet of Athearn metal kit cars and Varney metal kit cars - they look pretty good to me with just a few simple upgrades.
Proto kits - I agree Walthers is done with that - like it or not.
Still buying kits, still building the ones on my shelves, still buying RTR (and doing work to them as well), still creating my own little railroad world on my terms.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL wp8thsub Randy Stahl Face it , everyone who replied to this thread is a builder, there are not many of us left. Back when these kits were new, relatively few hobbyists had the skills to assemble them. Manufacturers like Proto 2000 and Intermountain helped spur today's trend toward RTR because of that. Really? I've been at this for 45 years and know lots of people in this hobby with good kit building skills - then and now. In fact I managed a train department in a hobby shop in the 80's and we sold a fair percentage of advanced kits. This hobby has evolved - or devolved depending on your point of view - but today many of those in this hobby would not have been in it 20 or 25 years ago - because you had to build kits. I don't know or care if many of todays modelers can learn kit building skills, but it is clear many don't want to.
Yes, really. I've been in the hobby over 40 years too. When it comes to building rolling stock kits, most hobbyists lack the skills for the really advanced kits. Many of the more complex kits from Proto, Intermountain, and the like remain unbuilt to this day, and when I speak to those who bought them, I find they often gave up in frustration. We have true craftsmen, who enjoy building for the sake of it, but many more who viewed involved kits only as a means to an end. Given the option to avoid complex kits, they'll gladly use their time on something else.
The fact people can have fun with the hobby today without acquiring craftsman kit skills is a positive development in my view. Rolling stock and locos have moved to RTR for most of us in HO, but craftsman kits from Cannon & Co., Funaro & Carmerlengo, Westerfield and others are still plentiful. Cannon just announced a whole line of craftsman cars in fact. The market for pre-assembled structures appears to remain very limited. Handlaid track using Fast Tracks jigs and components seems to be growing in popularity. There are numerous avenues for those who want to build things themselves.
I considered myself an 'average'modeller, but the Proto2k tank cars kits were the only ones where I told myself i would have fared better to buy RTR...
sebastiano
wp8thsub Given the option to avoid complex kits, they'll gladly use their time on something else. The fact people can have fun with the hobby today without acquiring craftsman kit skills is a positive development in my view. Rolling stock and locos have moved to RTR for most of us in HO, but craftsman kits from Cannon & Co., Funaro & Carmerlengo, Westerfield and others are still plentiful. Cannon just announced a whole line of craftsman cars in fact. The market for pre-assembled structures appears to remain very limited. Handlaid track using Fast Tracks jigs and components seems to be growing in popularity. There are numerous avenues for those who want to build things themselves.
I'm one who is glad to spend my hobby time on other things. I've got a bunch of Brae Trailers waiting to get roofs and side rails painted for example. Well, most of that will have to wait until I am finished with drywalling the parts of the basement that got wet last July when the sump pump failed, not to mention replacing the flooring that got ripped out. Fun fun!
Intermountain and Proto 2000 kits are about as advanced as I've built, but depending on the kit, those can be fairly challenging. Since I bought the desprueing nipper, that aspect of the kit building - which used to be a total pain, is now a snap! However, getting the pins to fit in the holes hasn't always been easy. I never did get that set of reamers which would help with that part of it.
My achilles heal has always been application of glues - I tend to struggle with getting a tiny amount on and end up getting it in places that marr the finish or frost (super glue). Many of my kits have turnout out good, but some have been less than perfect so my experience has not always been one that promotes enjoyment. Needless to say, the RTR cars come much better than I could complete the, especially those Tangent, Genesis and ExactRail cars and the Intermountain are pretty decent too.
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
trainnut1250 I agree with other posters who point out that lots of these kits are still out there unbuilt. I see them on EBay and at train shows every time I look. I would think that Walthers, Intermountain and Red Caboose are done producing new kits. Fortunately they have already produced enough kits that you can find nearly every type/style/road of car kit they produced with some patience. My two cents, Guy
I like RTR and find they are cheap (sometimes cheaper than the kits at times). Looking forward to the new ones coming out. Yes I have built kits and build lots of craftsman type for buildings but for rolling stock, the RTR's are better made than I could do, at least Proto 2000 are.
Sure there are unbuilt kits galore on eBay - but never the ones YOU want. Red Caboose had some nice basic flat car kits. I bought the last two one vendor had at a train show because word was out that they were never goign to make more. And they haven't. You can buy the same car in RTR now - but not in my road name. It's one of the things I regular search eBay for and rarely find any in any road name, let alone the one I want. They've all but disappeared. I guess it's down to paying the RTR price and then stripping it and repainting.
Haven't seen any of the plain black P2K tank car kits in a long time. One of the shiny aluminum colored ones, or some other one - sure, see those now and again as unbuilt kits.
riogrande5761My achilles heal has always been application of glues - I tend to struggle with getting a tiny amount on and end up getting it in places that marr the finish
Opti-Visor and a 5/0 or smaller brush. Some Dullcoat will hide any minor oopses.
Yep, I've even used a 10/0 brush to apply liquid adhesive.
rrinker Sure there are unbuilt kits galore on eBay - but never the ones YOU want. Red Caboose had some nice basic flat car kits. I bought the last two one vendor had at a train show because word was out that they were never goign to make more. And they haven't. You can buy the same car in RTR now - but not in my road name. It's one of the things I regular search eBay for and rarely find any in any road name, let alone the one I want. They've all but disappeared. I guess it's down to paying the RTR price and then stripping it and repainting. Haven't seen any of the plain black P2K tank car kits in a long time. One of the shiny aluminum colored ones, or some other one - sure, see those now and again as unbuilt kits. --Randy
Thats been my experience too, for sure. And I've noticed there are fewer choices on Ebay in the last year or so too, but if you check regularly and attend most of the available train shows within striking distance, my guess is you will be rewarded. I've found that with patience, over the course of a year or two, sooner or later you often find things on your want list. I can't coment on the black P2k tank car kits because those haven't been on my radar - but I've passed over many many kits that I don't have time to build - it's likely I've passed over P2k tank cars too. Whats the old saying, YMMV but persistance is rewarded.
Of course as you pointed out, there are some sweet RTR cars on the market too - Tangent has some nice single and triple domed 50's era tank cars. =)