Hello All,
•Yes, a "semi-customized" RTR line...
I upload my paint scheme files and road markings, or choose from stock road names and add my own road numbers. Then, just like any other customized print service, the initial cost is higher for the first unit and then for each additional unit the price decreases.
This might increase brand loyalty...My "semi-custom" loco, rolling stock, etc. is from "X-manufacture". Because this manufacturer has the original artwork I only buy from them.
The option of purchasing the decals only; once the initial cost of printing is covered, could be an additional revenue stream.
•I would like to see universal gearing and motors. If I buy a GP30 from any manufacturer I would like to have all GP30's to have the same general specifications: same gear ratio and similar output of prime mover.
This would make speed matching much easier. A few minor tweeks to the CV's rather than radical CV differences to consit would be great too.
Just wishing!
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
riogrande5761 Brasada lumber I would like to see all Dummy units brought back into the hobby. Most of us do not require every loco to be powered and have a decoder. Based on what I've read of production costs, manufacturers would not be able to offer dummies at a price point which custumers would generally be willing to pay for an unpowered unit. Back in the 70's, it probably cost a lot less percentage-wise of a powered unit for a dummy to be made and sold. These days, the cost of an engine without a motor is probably about 75-80% of the cost of the powered engine. Would you be willing to pay 75-80% of the price of a powered engine for a dummy? Most probably would not be willing. BTW, that may be a low ball estimate, it may be closer to 85% or higher. If the economics were favorable enough to produce dummies, we would proabably be seeing them offered more than they have been, which is pretty rare in the past 10 years. One of the very few examples I can think of is Rapido sold it's Canadian passenger trains with Engines that included a dummy B unit. And BTW, Rapido's prices are among the highest plastic HO - they are excellent models too. Anyway, otherwise it's very uncommon to see dummies offered in this day and age.
Brasada lumber I would like to see all Dummy units brought back into the hobby. Most of us do not require every loco to be powered and have a decoder.
I would like to see all Dummy units brought back into the hobby. Most of us do not require every loco to be powered and have a decoder.
Based on what I've read of production costs, manufacturers would not be able to offer dummies at a price point which custumers would generally be willing to pay for an unpowered unit. Back in the 70's, it probably cost a lot less percentage-wise of a powered unit for a dummy to be made and sold. These days, the cost of an engine without a motor is probably about 75-80% of the cost of the powered engine. Would you be willing to pay 75-80% of the price of a powered engine for a dummy? Most probably would not be willing. BTW, that may be a low ball estimate, it may be closer to 85% or higher.
If the economics were favorable enough to produce dummies, we would proabably be seeing them offered more than they have been, which is pretty rare in the past 10 years. One of the very few examples I can think of is Rapido sold it's Canadian passenger trains with Engines that included a dummy B unit. And BTW, Rapido's prices are among the highest plastic HO - they are excellent models too. Anyway, otherwise it's very uncommon to see dummies offered in this day and age.
Even "back in the day", 35-40 years ago, most modelers I knew wanted all units powered whenever possible.
If I don't count my original VARNEY F3 A-B set that was handed down from my father,I have never owned a dummy unit.
Power is subject to "More's Law" - Some s good, more is better, too much is still not enough".
Most of the diesel powered trains on my layout are pulled by 3-4 powered units......
Sheldon
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I like your idea Sheldon, that is the way it should be. when I first started back in the late 60's I went to my LHS to see what was new and just came in. It was exciting.
OK, if I was a manufacturer I would:
Have single point distribution like Athearn - there would be only one "wholesale" price.
I would sell direct at my list price for those not near a dealer - I would encourage customers to find a good dealer - in person or on line.
I would try to keep every product in regular production, and rerun items when inventories get low. Only when an item seemed truly "dead" would I stop regular "reruns".
I would have new items "on the shelf" before announcing them, being able to fill orders instantly and keeping competitors from knowing my plans.
I would make top quality and stand behind my products.
I would look for markets untapped by other manufacturers and not beat my self up trying to "steal" their market shares on existing products unless mine truely was better.
Wow - that sounds exactly like how I run my small GRAVELY TRACTOR custom parts business.......
DAVID FORTNEY Sheldon, your missing my point. They are building them because there is a market for them. Yes they have been built before and the tooling is already available so the profit motive is very strong. In any business you must make a profit and building reissues of items already made improves your bottom line, then you do it. You may not buy them but others will. When the economy gets better the mfgs. Then will invest in new tooling and maybe build what you would like to have. In today's market DCC and sound will become more prevalent and the days of DC and DC ready will becoming a end. Two dealers I have talked to and know personally have told me the sound units are out selling non sound by about 5-1 and they both now will not carry non sound units in their shops unless requested by their customers.
Sheldon, your missing my point. They are building them because there is a market for them. Yes they have been built before and the tooling is already available so the profit motive is very strong.
In any business you must make a profit and building reissues of items already made improves your bottom line, then you do it.
You may not buy them but others will. When the economy gets better the mfgs. Then will invest in new tooling and maybe build what you would like to have.
In today's market DCC and sound will become more prevalent and the days of DC and DC ready will becoming a end. Two dealers I have talked to and know personally have told me the sound units are out selling non sound by about 5-1 and they both now will not carry non sound units in their shops unless requested by their customers.
David,
I'm not disputing any of that.
Smart business men create markets or find untapped markets......
WARNING - I am about to fail political correctness -
I more than most people understand how the hobby has changed in the last 10-15 years. After 45 years and growing up in the hobby business, I understand all the different "types" of model railroaders......
The current method of marketing encourages the casual modeling, RTR collecting, that was once more associated with O gauge, and causes declining interest in more serious advanced modeling, including building kits, modeling specific railroads or eras, operation, etc.
Because models are not "cataloged" year in/year out, and no effort is made to keep standing inventories for future customers, those interested in taking a more serious approach to the hobby have a much harder time planning their model empires and the purchases required to construct them.
I do believe this has contributed to the changes in the hobby - based on the current marketplace, if I was entering the hobby today - I would not.
I have no interest in casually collecting a random assortment of train models and running them around a "generic" layout - I would spend the $30,000 or so I have in model trains on some other hobby.
Plus - I like to build stuff - I am building a relatively large layout, I like to run long, realistic trains, I like operation, I like good scenery, I buy my fair share of RTR because I don't have time to build everything - but for me this is a "creative" hobby, not a "collecting" hobby. Even the ready to run items I buy seldom make it to the layout without some "modification" - yes, I'm really good at destroying the "collector value" of model trains - as if they had any such value.....
I am no longer a good representation of the customer base for model trains, I have most of what I want. But, when I do want something, I'm not shy about spending money....
Sure, sound and DCC likely lead the demand right now, that's fine. I considered going DCC and decided against it. Sound has never interested me in small scales like HO - now in O scale or larger, if I ever switched scales, I would be all in......
The control system I use is DC - but it is way more complex than DCC - it suits my needs better than DCC.....
I don't know which shops you refer to, and markets vary by region, but many of the manufacturers still see DCC ready models as important based on their offerings.....
Bachmann broke new ground with their B&O EM1 - DCC, no sound, add the sound module - with the ablity to remove the DCC decoder that might be the best way to reduce inventory "versions" and fill the WHOLE market........
Understand it is not just the multiple sources for Big Boys that bugs me - I feel the same way about the PRR K4, N&W Class J, etc, etc.
Back in the day, manufacturers wanted to create the idea in the cutomers mind that the product was "always available", so that the customer would construct in his minds eye a railroad empire and then set about building and purchasing the required items.
Fact is the only reason the products were "available" back then was because everyone in the supply chain - manufcturer/distrubutor/retailer - was willing to invest in inventory.
The trains were still made in relatively small batch production runs just like today......
Happy I have most of what I want.
If any of these guys want some of the money I'm sitting on, they need to make something new.......like a modern east coast 10 Wheeler, more Pacifics, a few Atlantics, some different Mikes........
DAVID FORTNEY Just think BLI has announced another big boy that will have whistle steam and a depleting coal load. Delivery most likely next year. Must be a market for them.
Just think BLI has announced another big boy that will have whistle steam and a depleting coal load. Delivery most likely next year.
Must be a market for them.
You miss the point, there may well be an ongoing market for Big Boys, mainly among those who model "casually" or who are new to the hobby and enamored with "fame".
And once a manufacturer has tooling for a loco, it is an easy, low cost choice to produce another run with a few new "features".
Those facts do not make it the "best" business decision, only the safe and easy one.
Depleting coal load - no thank you - same with sound, smoke and station announcements. What happens when all that stuff breaks/stops working and there are no parts from China to fix it? That happened to me with two BLI locos. I'm much happier with the occasional free replacement from Bachmann over the lack of service I received from BLI.
BLI fills only 7 spots in my 130 loco roster - not likely they will fill many more either - had a lot of problems with two of them, missing parts in one other, and the sound and decoders are gone from all (two actually came without sound "back in their early days").
MTH - none
Bachmann - 35
Proto2000 - 50
Intermountain - 10 (all F units)
Athearn and Genesis - 16 (mostly F units)
Brass - 2
The other 12 or so are a mix of other brands.
No Atlas, no KATO - not much offered by them in my era.
I still bet Bachmann has sold more 2-8-0's than all brands of Big Boy sales combined.
This industry is living on the edge of being "in trouble", just like a lot of other economic stuff these days, they are just playing it safe......
The marketing behavior of BLI has always suggested a lack of adequate capital - no different now.
Anyway, how much is a new Big Boy? $600 - I would rather have some more Bachmann Heavy Mountains and 2-8-0's - that will buy five or six of them at one of my local shops that still has them......building a fleet that looks like a railroad - not a museum.......different strokes.......
DAVID FORTNEY BUT, again, now there are more eras to spread out the modelers and the resources of the manufacturers - that does effect the offerings - making it even more frustrating when six companies make Big Boys. Why are they making big boys? because they will sell, plain and simple. Economics 101.
BUT, again, now there are more eras to spread out the modelers and the resources of the manufacturers - that does effect the offerings - making it even more frustrating when six companies make Big Boys.
Why are they making big boys? because they will sell, plain and simple. Economics 101.
Not to me, I've never bought one in 45 years of modeling.
Current locomotive count at my house - 135
Current freight car count - over 1000
Current passenger car count - about 200
Actual feet of model train track - over 1000
Number of turnouts - nearly 200
Size of space dedicated to model trains - over 1000 sq feet
Point - I buy a lot of trains
So at this point all these different companies have invested in different tooling to make the same thing and no matter how big the market for Big Boys is, it is now divided five or six ways - lowering the return on those tooling investments.
One would only need to find an item with 30% of the popularity of a Big Boy to make a better return on investment - assuming similar tooling and production costs.
But what do I know, I have just been self employed for most of my life.......and I worked in this business years ago.....
Same old song... More numbers for the same car or loco. One or two or even five different numbers isn't enough. I still have to forge car numbers in this modern day. smh
"but this used to be a major part of the hobby."That's because there was no choice. Sales numbers are showing pretty solidly that most modelers are rather like me... I'd rather pay for a CNW GP7 that IS a CNW GP7, and a SOO GP9 Ph 2 that REALLY IS a SOO GP9 Ph 2.Because it gives me more time to OPERATE. Further, it gives me more time available to model things that AREN'T common like a CNW ex-MKT Baldwin/EMD rebuild.
The Athearn Blue Box kit is dead and it's not coming back. And I'm just as happy, because spending time on the ordinary is not what I want to do.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
riogrande5761I wouldn't think of loco's as a sideline for Athearn at all; they have a regular offerings of them, and fairly frequent re-runs - so if you watch what they actually produce and announce - no way a sideline. Yes, they have and continue to have some QAQC problems - so some criticism has been expected.
A few thoughts:
I find your description of "regular offerings with frequent reruns" to be very interesting - like a resolution to the preorder/limited production game - when in fact Athearn and all the rest have always made trains in "batches" - it is the marketing that is different now - not the method or scheduling of production.
My point about locos being a sideline is this, I would bet that, now or 30 years ago, Athearn rolling stock sales exceed loco sales in dollars by pretty high margin - considering the average price of a loco to the average price of rolling stock, that makes rolling stock a much bigger part of their business - unllike BLI who is primarily a loco maker who has a few pieces of rolling stock......
One more thought about modeling era - I am not suggesting that the "most popular" era has not shifted. But what I suspect is that one era has never had a big "lead" in popularity over any other, and that the interest in various eras is likely pretty evenly spread out over the history of trains - with pre 1900 maybe being the one universally weak popularity era.
I think the product offerings support this notion that interest is strong for most every era.
Take care,
NittanyLion If I was a manufacturer, I wouldn't even bother with locomotives and go to the vast numbers rolling stock gaps or structures.
If I was a manufacturer, I wouldn't even bother with locomotives and go to the vast numbers rolling stock gaps or structures.
You mean like ExactRail? ;) ExactRail makes a lot of very nice freight cars and a few other odd goodies, but so far, even at some urging from the MRR community they still haven't offered any locomotives, yet. Having watched Intermountains struggling and teething pains makes you think it might cause some pause in some folks delve into that arena - Scale Trains, however, has announced they are kicking things off with two engines - type yet to be announced.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Good point - it is funny how sometimes on this board Athearn locos get "bashed" in one way or another, and I think to myself, Athearn likely considers locos as almost as sideline compaired to the amount and variety of rolling stock they make. Sheldon
Good point - it is funny how sometimes on this board Athearn locos get "bashed" in one way or another, and I think to myself, Athearn likely considers locos as almost as sideline compaired to the amount and variety of rolling stock they make.
I wouldn't think of loco's as a sideline for Athearn at all; they have a regular offerings of them, and fairly frequent re-runs - so if you watch what they actually produce and announce - no way a sideline. Yes, they have and continue to have some QAQC problems - so some criticism has been expected.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThanks for the info, I do know what an F40/F45 is, that helps a lot.
Yes, think of the SDP40F as the Amtrak custom version of the F45/FP45; very very similar looking - in fact Athearn offered their FP45 in model form and painted it for Amtrak and to the untrained eye, it looked pretty close to the Amtrak diesel. A slightly longer than the F45, the FP45 with a steam generator, was bought originally by the Santa Fe and Milwaukee in the late 1960's to replace aging F units on their passenger service before it was given over to the NRPC.
I understand and agree that many younger people in the hobby are interested in the tech stuff, and so are many older people - but based on some of the informal surveys we have taken on here, stuff like sound, DCC, smoke, etc, still seems to only have about a 50% to possibly 70% market penetration - raising those questions about how many new people there are, and how much they are buying? In fact, a great many of those who post on here about their "love" of sound are not young people - but retirement age people re-entering the hobby.
The older crowd who loves sound probably does because, well, they do if the sound somewhat faithfully replicates what they remember hearing, which is probably kind of cool and brings back memories - taking into account of course the sound is scaled down and lacks the lower range etc. Anyway, I believe the manufactures are going to follow the money, not the loudest voices - isn't that how it's always been? "Show me the money", "follow the money" etc. So when there are very vocal people on forums, one has to keep in mind are they a voice crying in the wilderness or are they part of a group that the manufacturers perceive as major income?
Right now many non-hobby manufacturers, according to many reports, are courting the millenials because they see them as the new major source of income and basically their "meal ticket" for the future going forward. Train hobby manufacturers are going to be doing the same thing I'd hazard while continuing to service the spenders they are currently selling the most models too per the sales figures.
As for the era thing, I still don't buy that one either. Also, our latest several threads on here, "why do you model what you model", etc, largely dispelled the notion that "most" people model the trains of their youth, or even what they see every day. In fact, I would buy the idea that a specific group models present day - or what was present day when they entered the hobby because they are simply not "history" types, more than the "trains of their youth" idea.
In fact, I would buy the idea that a specific group models present day - or what was present day when they entered the hobby because they are simply not "history" types, more than the "trains of their youth" idea.
Regardless of what we think about era as far as manufacturers go, they seem to be producing for multiple era's so it's clear they see a demand for it. A few cater to mostly particular era's like Kadee in HO, making 1940's thru 1960's freight cars and Tangent, maybe 50's thru 70's with few bones to the later guys. Then BLMA leans heavily toward modern (1990+ with a few bones tossed to the 70's and 80's guys). Most of the others like Athearn, Atlas, ExactRail cover a range for freight cars anyway.
I've seen a number of informal poll's in the last couple years which seem to indicate that the center of the curve of what people are modeling moved from steam/diesel transition (say 20-40 years ago) to the 70's and 80's or maybe the 60's and 70's, depending on which poll you see. It makes sense as time goes by that curve in the poll will migrate forward in time.
I do not think any lack of interest in older eras relates to age, or what is familar as much as it relates to the wider number of eras to choose from - remember, in 1971 when I started in the hobby, the 80's, 90's, and beyond did not exist yet - the newest era I could have picked then was 1971......but I soon became interested in the "classic" trains of 20 years before that time - even though I was only a teen. That would be the same as someone today deciding to model the mid 90's......the "dark ages of the past"..... I've never been temped to switch eras. Sheldon
You like what you like of course. Some switch, some don't. And folks can discuss the causes of lack of interest in older era's - if there is a lack of interest, but it is interesting to see how polls go - formal or informal - it does seem to indicate the numbers are shifting forward in time, at least in general.
Doughless Manufacturers should try to keep as much of the innards of locomotives as similar as possible year over year. As an example, Proto used to change their light boards with every new model, not to mention going through several several truck designs. Atlas recently changed motors from the Kato clone motor to something else. Similar mechanicals would make maintenance and replacement of parts much simpler. As far as DCC/Sound: they need to find a way to deal with BEMF and the buzz it creates when providing for ultra slow speed movement. When the sound is turned down low, it can be heard as background noise. I would refrain from designing in all sorts of sounds and features that are hardly ever used as sacrifice for designing the software to run the loco at 1 mph silently.
Manufacturers should try to keep as much of the innards of locomotives as similar as possible year over year. As an example, Proto used to change their light boards with every new model, not to mention going through several several truck designs. Atlas recently changed motors from the Kato clone motor to something else.
Similar mechanicals would make maintenance and replacement of parts much simpler.
As far as DCC/Sound: they need to find a way to deal with BEMF and the buzz it creates when providing for ultra slow speed movement. When the sound is turned down low, it can be heard as background noise. I would refrain from designing in all sorts of sounds and features that are hardly ever used as sacrifice for designing the software to run the loco at 1 mph silently.
I agree completely, develope a good product and stick with it. Change for the sake of change is wasteful and anoying.
About those early Proto boards, they were in a learning curve about the DCC ready thing, and that did settle down later on.
- Douglas
riogrande5761 I don't even really know what an SDP40F is - I would have to look it up - it is obviously out of my era of knowledge and interest.
I don't even really know what an SDP40F is - I would have to look it up - it is obviously out of my era of knowledge and interest.
If you are focused on steam with a smattering of diesel at the fringes of steam to the exclusion of most else I can understand why you've never heard of the SDP40F. Briefly, when Amtrak needed to order new diesels to take over from the used diesels inherited from the railroads, the SDP40F is a six axle cowl diesel that they purchased - they look similar to F40 and F45 owned by some of the northern RR's. Due to some derailments which there was some controversy over, they were taken out of service and replaced with the four axle F40PH which was basically a cowl version of the GP40-2. I road behind the SDP40F from Sacramento to Denver and from Osceola Iowa to Sacramento as a teenager in the 70's when they pulled the San Francisco Zephyr, which was later renamed the California Zephyr when Amtrak rerouted the that train in 1983 Thru the Rockies after it was re-equipped with Superliner passenger cars.
Likewise some have suggested additional enhancements to electronic and/or animation features while others have asked for more kit options or personalization by the end user. I bring this up to simply demonstrate the ever increasing challenges the manufacturers face in deciding what to offer and how to offer it. I don't want sound, DCC, fancy lights, noise, smoke, talking people, glowing fireboxes - clearly the hobby is highly divided on these issues. And the ever growing number of eras to be represented plays another role in the tough choices manufactuers must make. Sheldon
I bring this up to simply demonstrate the ever increasing challenges the manufacturers face in deciding what to offer and how to offer it.
I don't want sound, DCC, fancy lights, noise, smoke, talking people, glowing fireboxes - clearly the hobby is highly divided on these issues.
And the ever growing number of eras to be represented plays another role in the tough choices manufactuers must make.
Something you've let us know numerous times, but manufacturers will be catering more and more to the young who may want the fancy stuff and pay for it. That being the case, eventually there will be fewer era's represented as they focus more on the interest of the younger generation, which will be probalby mostly post 1990 would be my guess.
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Thanks for the info, I do know what an F40/F45 is, that helps a lot.
As for the era thing, I still don't buy that one either. Also, our latest several threads on here, "why do you model what you model", etc, largely dispelled the notion that "most" people model the trains of their youth, or even what they see every day.
I do not think any lack of interest in older eras relates to age, or what is familar as much as it relates to the wider number of eras to choose from - remember, in 1971 when I started in the hobby, the 80's, 90's, and beyond did not exist yet - the newest era I could have picked then was 1971......but I soon became interested in the "classic" trains of 20 years before that time - even though I was only a teen. That would be the same as someone today deciding to model the mid 90's......the "dark ages of the past"..... I've never been temped to switch eras.
Assume we have a similar number of modelers in the hobby today, because we all know young people are generally less interested in this kind of stuff, that means there are fewer modelers of EVERY era because there are more choices.
I still think that there has to be a market for generic diesels that are basically devoid of details and particularly prototype specific details, example: those SP diesels with headlights all over the place.
Just before Athearn went the Genesis route, they had a few shells that didn't have things like molded on grabs, but had dimples or other drill guides for the modeler to add his own. Well, take. The same concept and expand it to fans, headlights, etc. just marking the locations, but not providing the detail part.
Have body mount coupler brackets instead of frame mount.
Then add to that a functional mechanism that runs well and is smooth and quiet. Then have detailed truck side frames, but still require detail parts to finish it off.
And finally offer the whole thing at a reasonable price. (Under $100)
yes, one might spend more in the long run, but the modeler would have a specific locomotive, and he can say, "I modeled that."
And, think of the other mfrs that would benefit from that. How many are gone now, detail part mfrs, paint mfrs. Does anyone remember Kemtron and Floquil?
i know, most everybody I've told about this thinks I'm daft, and maybe I am, but this used to be a major part of the hobby. I just can't help but think it could still work.
Jim (with a nod to Mies Van Der Rohe)
Although my comment was on the facetious side with smoke coming out everywhere on a steam engine the truth is I would rather see better quality from all of our Mfgs.
The use of LEDs as a standard lighting on all locomotives. More ridged handrails.
Better comunication between mfgs. To avoid making the same things like the NS heritage units from at least 3 mfgs.
riogrande5761 angelob6660 I would make the Amtrak SDP40F and P30CH in HO I've had people who give me the winky winky and say that a major manufacturer will be coming out with the SDP40F in the future in HO. I'm assuming probably thats Athearn, and hopefully we'll see it announced later this year or next year. That was on one of the "most wanted" lists so it should not be a surprise.
angelob6660 I would make the Amtrak SDP40F and P30CH in HO
I would make the Amtrak SDP40F and P30CH in HO
I've had people who give me the winky winky and say that a major manufacturer will be coming out with the SDP40F in the future in HO. I'm assuming probably thats Athearn, and hopefully we'll see it announced later this year or next year. That was on one of the "most wanted" lists so it should not be a surprise.
It is interesting how this thread has already shown the ever widening diversity gap in this hobby.
Many of the comments have been very "generic" applying to product of all eras and interests, while other comments are focused on specific models or types of features.
Likewise some have suggested additional enhancements to electronic and/or animation features while others have asked for more kit options or personalization by the end user.
A nice NYC K-11 Pacific (4-6-2) would be amazing in HO Scale. IMHO.
-Alex Warshal
My Layout Photos- http://s1293.photobucket.com/user/ajwarshal/library/