rrebell ATLANTIC CENTRAL BroadwayLion ATLANTIC CENTRAL Levittown homes were some of the first homes build on monolithic poored slab foundations, a construction method not yet tested or approved in that region at the time. Also, it seems, the Levittown type houses had radient heat built into the slab to prevent frost heaves. We had such a house on Earl Drive (in Merrick) with radient heat in the slab. How long can pipes in a slab last? What if one leaked, and some dofuss of a home owern or plumber replaced that with radiators and just capped the pipes in the slab. Could spell trouble. ROAR Typically that was done with copper pipe. If the system is well maintained those older systems lasted 50-60 years or longer. Hot water heating pipes in a well maintained system do not corrode. Metal corrosion general requires oxygen, hot water heating systems are closed loops, the water becomes distiled after the first heating cycle, no longer containing any oxygen, it never causes corrosion. Only a leaky system, always getting freash water added, causes the pipes to corrode. Even steel pipe and iron radiators do not corrode in a well maintained system. Today in-floor radiant heat is very popular. It is done in slabs or in wood floors with plastic pipe known as PEX tubing - expected life 100 plus years. Sheldon Wrong on one point, concrete will eat copper, after as early as around 30 years you could start to have leaks, though most last at least 50 depending on the pipe thickness and other factors, not to say they can't last longer though.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL BroadwayLion ATLANTIC CENTRAL Levittown homes were some of the first homes build on monolithic poored slab foundations, a construction method not yet tested or approved in that region at the time. Also, it seems, the Levittown type houses had radient heat built into the slab to prevent frost heaves. We had such a house on Earl Drive (in Merrick) with radient heat in the slab. How long can pipes in a slab last? What if one leaked, and some dofuss of a home owern or plumber replaced that with radiators and just capped the pipes in the slab. Could spell trouble. ROAR Typically that was done with copper pipe. If the system is well maintained those older systems lasted 50-60 years or longer. Hot water heating pipes in a well maintained system do not corrode. Metal corrosion general requires oxygen, hot water heating systems are closed loops, the water becomes distiled after the first heating cycle, no longer containing any oxygen, it never causes corrosion. Only a leaky system, always getting freash water added, causes the pipes to corrode. Even steel pipe and iron radiators do not corrode in a well maintained system. Today in-floor radiant heat is very popular. It is done in slabs or in wood floors with plastic pipe known as PEX tubing - expected life 100 plus years. Sheldon
BroadwayLion ATLANTIC CENTRAL Levittown homes were some of the first homes build on monolithic poored slab foundations, a construction method not yet tested or approved in that region at the time. Also, it seems, the Levittown type houses had radient heat built into the slab to prevent frost heaves. We had such a house on Earl Drive (in Merrick) with radient heat in the slab. How long can pipes in a slab last? What if one leaked, and some dofuss of a home owern or plumber replaced that with radiators and just capped the pipes in the slab. Could spell trouble. ROAR
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Levittown homes were some of the first homes build on monolithic poored slab foundations, a construction method not yet tested or approved in that region at the time.
Also, it seems, the Levittown type houses had radient heat built into the slab to prevent frost heaves. We had such a house on Earl Drive (in Merrick) with radient heat in the slab.
How long can pipes in a slab last? What if one leaked, and some dofuss of a home owern or plumber replaced that with radiators and just capped the pipes in the slab. Could spell trouble.
ROAR
Typically that was done with copper pipe. If the system is well maintained those older systems lasted 50-60 years or longer.
Hot water heating pipes in a well maintained system do not corrode. Metal corrosion general requires oxygen, hot water heating systems are closed loops, the water becomes distiled after the first heating cycle, no longer containing any oxygen, it never causes corrosion.
Only a leaky system, always getting freash water added, causes the pipes to corrode.
Even steel pipe and iron radiators do not corrode in a well maintained system.
Today in-floor radiant heat is very popular. It is done in slabs or in wood floors with plastic pipe known as PEX tubing - expected life 100 plus years.
Sheldon
Wrong on one point, concrete will eat copper, after as early as around 30 years you could start to have leaks, though most last at least 50 depending on the pipe thickness and other factors, not to say they can't last longer though.
The copper pipe was coated with tar/sealer before the pour. Today we use PEX.
This may not be acceptible, but I'm not known for political correctness. The best quote I ever heard about this subject was..."A model railroad is like a ***....don't have to be big to have fun with it, but if it is really big, it can certainly be a lot more fun". I have never agreed with this as my current layout is a bit over 2850 square feet with a main line run of 23 miles, but I had just as much fun with my first 11'x 6' pike. It is not about size...but quality, and achieving that is where the real fun is.
My three bucks worth,
HZ
Carnegie FallsPlease post a picture of the layout in the 40 sq ft room!
This 5'X7' HO switching layout is 40 sq. ft. with aisles.
Hollow-core-door layouts are also about 40 sq. ft. with aisles, I have done a couple of those in HO and N scale.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Hello All,
Now I really feel inferior compared to the "average" guy!
But, like the saying goes, "Mine is big enough to please me!"
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
The latest poll I could find in MR is from May 1996 which reported on a joint NMRA-Kalmbach survey. 78% had a layout.
Of those with a layout:
44.9% 74 sq ft or less
23.9% 75-149 sq ft
18.8% 150-299 sq ft
10.3% 300 sq ft or more
2.4% no answer.
My guess is that today's numbers probably aren't that much different.
Enjoy
Paul
cuyama wrote the following post an hour ago:
"That is incorrect. The median is the value in a data set with an equal number of values above and below."
See, I was right (when I said I might be wrong). Thanks for the additional info. I was thinking the median was the halfway point between the highest and lowest value. Looks like I confused it with the "mid-range".
Please post a picture of the layout in the 40 sq ft room!
Carnegie FallsIf the median size is 240 sq ft, the largest possible room in the data set would be 480 sq ft. And that would require a room of 0 sq ft.
That is incorrect. The median is the value in a data set with an equal number of values above and below.
http://www.diffen.com/difference/Mean_vs_Median
A few large (or small) members of a set can skew the average, also called the mean, high (or low). That's why the median can sometimes be more reflective of the true nature of the data set -- as in the case of the room sizes I referenced in my posting.
As it happens, the smallest layout space in my data set is 40 square feet and the largest is 3830 sq. ft. These values include aisles and access, not just benchwork, and aren't adjusted for multi-deck designs.
I believe the average was stated to fit into an 8'x10' room. A lot of us are on our 2nd or 3rd or later layout. And therefore it would make sense that our layout is larger.I believe MRR conducted this survey long ago. It might be worth contacting the editor and asking him in the magazine. If I recall correctly (IIRC) MRR also always emphasizes extensions (ie: Turtle Creek Branch Extension)...Beer line...etc...fitting into an 8x10 room.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
cuyama wrote the following post yesterday:
"the median room size is 240 square feet and the average room size is 490 square feet"
I don't think that's possible. If the median size is 240 sq ft, the largest possible room in the data set would be 480 sq ft. And that would require a room of 0 sq ft. Maybe I'm wrong.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWell we don't know where "here" is, since you did not tell us, but here in central Maryland, single homes start around $250,000. 1800 sq ft rancher with 1800 sq ft layout room below, on 1/2 to 3/4 acre lot, easily $350,000.
Pocket change!
VANCOUVER — The Globe and MailPublished Sunday, Jun. 07, 2015 5:29PM EDTLast updated Sunday, Jun. 07, 2015 11:26PM EDT
The average price for detached homes within the city of Vancouver has rocketed to a record $2.23-million
Of course that is Canadian dollars, about $1.46US
http://www.realtor.ca/Residential/Single-Family/15572518/4568-W-8TH-AV-Vancouver-British-Columbia-V6R2A5
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
TheWizard I'm (still trying to) move, so no layout presently. Previously, it was a dogbone that ran along a 12 foot and 14 foot wall, with return loops at each end. Some of you guys with your 2000 square foot layout rooms are insanely lucky. Here, houses that size (as in, the entire house) go for well over $250,000.
I'm (still trying to) move, so no layout presently. Previously, it was a dogbone that ran along a 12 foot and 14 foot wall, with return loops at each end.
Some of you guys with your 2000 square foot layout rooms are insanely lucky. Here, houses that size (as in, the entire house) go for well over $250,000.
Well we don't know where "here" is, since you did not tell us, but here in central Maryland, single homes start around $250,000. 1800 sq ft rancher with 1800 sq ft layout room below, on 1/2 to 3/4 acre lot, easily $350,000.
Unfortunately, average is pretty meaningless, because the data are heavily skewed toward the smaller end rather than normal. Using Greg's data above, most of the layouts fall into less than 400 square foot range (and almost 2/3 of those under 200). Average on the other hand is heavily driven by the few extremely large layouts. While not a true scientific pole, I suspect it does represent reality for most people rather than the basement empire we all dream of. My own layout is L shaped 1x12 along one wall and 2x8 along the other. Not much of an empire.
Dang, won't let me insert the histogram.
jim
My layout is 3'x13'. It's my first layout. There's an aisle between the layout and the wallI. Workbench is along the far wall. I built it to be taken apart and moved to the next house but I think I want to start new instead when we move. I share the room with the furnace, water heater, and laundry.
When I designed it I didn't want roundy roundy so I made a switching layout. But now I want roundy roundy. Maybe next time.
T e d
My personal railroad space is a smallish 2-car garage, of which I have 318 square feet of benchwork and railroad-dedicated aisleway. (The remaining space is dedicated to the hot water heater and clear access to same.)
If I stretched my benchwork in a straight line it would be a dogbone approximately 80 feet long. However, it's actually rolled into the space rather like a French pastry, shaped like a slightly asymmetrical double-G with aisleways shaped like an E with a long center bar (and fascia everywhere except the end of the extended bar, which provides the only access.)
And now, in the interests of statistical honesty (I am, after all, a retired statistician) I want to put in a plug for the vast number of 'layouts' that are 38 inches by 47 inches, that being the size of the 'oval of track' that comes out of the train set box when Junior gets it for Christmas, birthday, Bar Mitzvah or whatever. While some of them grow larger, many never do (and go back in the box as soon as Grandma or Aunt Minnie leave, so Junior can get back to playing video games.) It's that small percentage that grow larger which give rise, decades later, to basement and garage fillers.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
i tallied up the various responses and came up with an average space of 327 sq ft.
i included my small layout and a club layout, a basement in a private home, by far the largest space, which inflated the number to 455 sq ft.
I list the tally below. Some reported size of space and benchwork. I opted for size of space as others have suggested but noted alternate values in ().
118.0 118 1 118 v8vega 284.0 568 2 15x30 rrebell 202.7 608 3 4x10 ricktrains4824 (4x12x13) 187.0 748 4 14x10 rr_mel (20x24) 162.4 812 5 4x16 bis (2x4x8) 211.2 1267 6 35x13 doughless 232.4 1627 7 24x15 batman 265.9 2127 8 20x25 jrbernier (290) 308.3 2775 9 24x27 broadwaylion 373.5 3735 10 24x40 atlantic-central 367.2 4039 11 16x19 riogrande5761 365.8 4389 12 14x25 riogrande5761 351.5 4569 13 10x18 riogrande5761 352.9 4941 14 12x31 ironross (72) 335.3 5029 15 22x4 david-fortney 323.1 5169 16 14x10 rr_mel 323.8 5505 17 21x16 wojosa31 333.8 6009 18 21x24 crhostler61 (14x19x10) 342.6 6509 19 500 doctorwayne (355+145) 349.4 6989 20 24x20 twhite 341.5 7171 21 14x13 rogerhensley 352.1 7747 22 24x24 misterbeasley 349.1 8028 23 12.5x22.5 shanny10 339.5 8148 24 10x12 c&0-fan 327.2 8180 25 4x8 jjdamnit 317.1 8244 26 8x8 gregc (33) 455.3 12294 27 90x45 pacificSouthern
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
One for the little guys!
Mine is a 4x8 "table top." On which I've managed to cram over 72-feet of track on two levels- -believe it or not!!!
selector ATLANTIC CENTRAL ... Hot water heating pipes in a well maintained system do not corrode. Metal corrosion general requires oxygen, hot water heating systems are closed loops, the water becomes distiled after the first heating cycle, no longer containing any oxygen, it never causes corrosion. Only a leaky system, always getting freash water added, causes the pipes to corrode. Even steel pipe and iron radiators do not corrode in a well maintained system. Today in-floor radiant heat is very popular. It is done in slabs or in wood floors with plastic pipe known as PEX tubing - expected life 100 plus years. Sheldon It's getting into the weeds a bit, Sheldon, but you don't quite have that correct. Water in a closed steam/water heating system doesn't get distilled so much as it clears itself via an initial bit of corrosion until there are no free ions and/or oxygen left to continue the corrosive process. The heating speeds this process up, but the water isn't distilled in the sense that it evaporates, condenses in a collector, and is then used in that purified state. Instead, it gets remixed with the boiler volume which is where contaminants, sludge, scale, and other unwanted items must stay in the cycle. With the remixing, it gets some, but less, of the contaminants not used up in the initial oxidation. Eventually, the process approaches zero and the system stabilizes with no further corrosion until, as you stated, new water must be added to the boiler, usually automatically via a check valve and household mains pressure, and this due to slow losses to loose fittings or whatever. Not to be discounted at all, and not mentioned so far, is dissolved CO2. It is highly corrosive because it forms carbonic acid in the feedwater, an acid which, as we know from the rusty nail left overnight in the Coke bottle trick, will etch and damage steel pipes and copper pipes.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL ... Hot water heating pipes in a well maintained system do not corrode. Metal corrosion general requires oxygen, hot water heating systems are closed loops, the water becomes distiled after the first heating cycle, no longer containing any oxygen, it never causes corrosion. Only a leaky system, always getting freash water added, causes the pipes to corrode. Even steel pipe and iron radiators do not corrode in a well maintained system. Today in-floor radiant heat is very popular. It is done in slabs or in wood floors with plastic pipe known as PEX tubing - expected life 100 plus years. Sheldon
It's getting into the weeds a bit, Sheldon, but you don't quite have that correct. Water in a closed steam/water heating system doesn't get distilled so much as it clears itself via an initial bit of corrosion until there are no free ions and/or oxygen left to continue the corrosive process. The heating speeds this process up, but the water isn't distilled in the sense that it evaporates, condenses in a collector, and is then used in that purified state. Instead, it gets remixed with the boiler volume which is where contaminants, sludge, scale, and other unwanted items must stay in the cycle. With the remixing, it gets some, but less, of the contaminants not used up in the initial oxidation. Eventually, the process approaches zero and the system stabilizes with no further corrosion until, as you stated, new water must be added to the boiler, usually automatically via a check valve and household mains pressure, and this due to slow losses to loose fittings or whatever.
Not to be discounted at all, and not mentioned so far, is dissolved CO2. It is highly corrosive because it forms carbonic acid in the feedwater, an acid which, as we know from the rusty nail left overnight in the Coke bottle trick, will etch and damage steel pipes and copper pipes.
Yes, I used the "simplified" expanation, which was largely correct in the days of steam boiler heating systems.
Fact remains, corrosion in hydronic heating systems is nil in most cases. Half of the sytem at my house is running through copper installed in 1963, and a third of the system, the headers and trunks, are black iron.
Modern boilers generally feed from the top, and return to the bottom, so there is good clearing cirulation through the boiler, little standing boiler water.
Proper maintence and operation suggests the makeup water should be off, and only seasonally turned on to check the system for losses. But we know many just leave them on....
Ive always considered my 10x12 around the wall shelf style bedroom layout as
average
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TerryinTexas
See my Web Site Here
http://conewriversubdivision.yolasite.com/
ATLANTIC CENTRALLevittown homes were some of the first homes build on monolithic poored slab foundations, a construction method not yet tested or approved in that region at the time.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
My parents moved into a 1870 farm house and we have low basement ceillings, but high enough dad used one side 12 1/2' x 22 1/2'. We even have dirt floor on that side but dad leveled it out and plastic over then outdoor turfed.
Shanny10
B&O, C&O, PRR
Just lovin trains
I have the upstairs of a 2-car garage, about 24x24 square feet of room space. My layout is about 150 square feet, with a lot of track. I've got a loop of subway line running beneath part of the layout, too.
Historically, it's taken me 1 month to build 1 square foot of finished layout.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
BroadwayLion twhite 24x20 here, in a "California Basement" (garage). LION was looking at the Levittown neighborhood on Long Island (for other reasons) and while him knew that houses of this sort (mass produced little things post WWII) had no basement, what him knew not was the hoops the developers had to hop through to build houses without basements. Apparently basements were the law in New York for eons without end. ROAR
twhite 24x20 here, in a "California Basement" (garage).
LION was looking at the Levittown neighborhood on Long Island (for other reasons) and while him knew that houses of this sort (mass produced little things post WWII) had no basement, what him knew not was the hoops the developers had to hop through to build houses without basements. Apparently basements were the law in New York for eons without end.
Basements where not "law", and are not law, in NY, but deep foundations are. So there is little economy in building houses in the Mid Atlantic or North East without basements.
Levittown homes were some of the first homes build on monolithic poored slab foundations, a construction method not yet tested or approved in that region at the time.
But to this day, the majority of single homes in these regions continue to be built with basements, because foundations need to be 3 feet or more into the ground, and because basements provide higher comfort levels for the home, and because they provide a better location and access for mechanical systems.
Once you are commited digging a deep foundation and building a floor deck system rather than a slab, the unfinished basement is a very small extra exspense that pays off in space gained.
As far back as the 1880's basements of some form have been common here in the North East and Mid Atlantic.
twhite24x20 here, in a "California Basement" (garage).
About a fourth of our small basement.
Roger Hensley= ECI Railroad - http://madisonrails.railfan.net/eci/eci_new.html == Railroads of Madison County - http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ =
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL That is an interesting view, but I don't know hardly anyone personally around here with a layout that small. Sheldon I should have explain why that is. The guys I know has a "man cave" that houses their layout,work bench,small computer area, railroad scanner and paint booth..That's all the space they are allowed by their "sufficient other" or she who rules the house and is the master of all she surveys. Some layouts is around two walls L Shape with turn backs or a simple 4x8 or 4x10' layout..Nothing fancy.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL That is an interesting view, but I don't know hardly anyone personally around here with a layout that small. Sheldon
I should have explain why that is. The guys I know has a "man cave" that houses their layout,work bench,small computer area, railroad scanner and paint booth..That's all the space they are allowed by their "sufficient other" or she who rules the house and is the master of all she surveys.
Some layouts is around two walls L Shape with turn backs or a simple 4x8 or 4x10' layout..Nothing fancy.
OK Larry, I could not get away with putting the layout in the living room - but, when we bought this house and began restoring it, I told the wife, we need a place to park the two cars, and the garden tractor, and for my tools. That translated into a 32' x 40' detached garage with three doors on the 32' side.
I also told her the 1901 6'-6" deep basement was not suitable for the trains, so I was going to put a second floor on the garage by giving it a 12/12 pitch roof to match the house. The second floor train room is heated and cooled. I had the money and I did it. I did not get any resistance.
My workshop in the basement is of no concern to her, she only goes down there about once a month.
So if I add them together, I have a 960 sq ft train room man cave, a 1300 sq ft basement man cave (yes, it has some mechanical equipment, and some is storage, but the rest is mine), and most of the 1280 sq ft 1st floor of the garage is my domain as well.
I almost forgot, my office - I am self employed and my office is in my home. A 200 sq ft room with built in bookcases filled with back issues of MR and other railroad library stuff just a few feet from my desk at all times.
So that is about 3740 sq ft of man caves, my wife has the other 3700 sq feet of the house.