This layout has always been impressive to me and I have found how George does things to be an inspiration which gets my juices going!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
The layout is open for public viewing one Saturday per month from April to October, by appointment.
I got to see it as part of a craftsman modeling show. It's quite the experience, and I would recommend it to anyone who is in the Boston area.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Georges layout is musuem quality and then some. I really hope if it gets to a point he can't manage it anymore, some how it could be moved to a musuem or place where it can be preserved.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761 Georges layout is musuem quality and then some. I really hope if it gets to a point he can't manage it anymore, some how it could be moved to a musuem or place where it can be preserved.
I will second that! It would be fitting to have the FSM preserved in a museum. Somehow that seems like a fitting tribute to both the FSM and the Gorre & Daphetid. The G&D never had the chance, so I hope George will consider it..
MJ4562It would be fitting to have the FSM preserved in a museum.
I read a rumor somewhere that it might find a home in the Smithsonian. It would be a fitting honor, but I would rather see it stay closer to home so George and his team of operators can continue to run it for everyone's pleasure.
MisterBeasley MJ4562 It would be fitting to have the FSM preserved in a museum. I read a rumor somewhere that it might find a home in the Smithsonian. It would be a fitting honor, but I would rather see it stay closer to home so George and his team of operators can continue to run it for everyone's pleasure.
MJ4562 It would be fitting to have the FSM preserved in a museum.
Although I personally am not a fan of Eastern Roads and metropolitan layouts, there is much to admire about the F&SM as anyone who has seen photos of the layout can attest. I do love structures and am amazed at what George has accomplished and the extent of the detail he has put into this layout. I do think a tie-in with John Allan’s G&D is totally appropriate. The F&SM is an example of a museum quality model and George's ability to do weathering in a very realistic way is what makes the layout truly stand out!
Fine Scale Miniatures did several kits based on specific G&D buildings and I always got the impression that George is a huge fan of John Allen. It's hard to miss the G&D influences on the F&SM and the F&SM is a fine example of taking inspiration from something without copying it. In some ways the F&SM is a second generation G&D although G.S. focused on urban environments while J.A. focused on rugged mountain terrain.
It's been awhile since I read about the F&SM but from memory the F&SM is a proto-freelanced rendition of the Boston suburbs. I don't speak for the Smithsonian but I think it would be appropriate as a high quality model of the spirit of American railroading in general. If memory serves, the Smithsonian had several model railroad exhibits--at least they did when I visisted 35 years ago. The Great Train Story at the musuem in Chicago is not an exact prototype of anything either although it represents different parts of the IL area.
I have no problem with the Smithsonian taking the F&SM, I just figured they would only be interested in models of real railroads. I'm not attempting to do their thinking for them, they're fully capable to making their own decisions.
Take a good look at this layout.........in the depression era there was not a bunch of run down abandoned buildings with trash laying all over the place......
............him and his cronies have caused a lot of model builders in the area to not enter buildings into contests because of the bogus standards in place now.......do you really need to see nail holes in every board ?......does ever building need to look like it is run down?
Far as I am concerned the guy and his RR are way to over rated.
Dennis Blank Jr.
CEO,COO,CFO,CMO,Bossman,Slavedriver,Engineer,Trackforeman,Grunt. Birdsboro & Reading Railroad
rdgk1se3019 Take a good look at this layout.........in the depression era there was not a bunch of run down abandoned buildings with trash laying all over the place...... ............him and his cronies have caused a lot of model builders in the area to not enter buildings into contests because of the bogus standards in place now.......do you really need to see nail holes in every board ?......does ever building need to look like it is run down? Far as I am concerned the guy and his RR are way to over rated.
Some people said the same things about John Allen. However, he was still very important to the hobby! I guess you are certainly entitled to your opinions. I don't feel all his buildings are run down! However, not having lived in either Boston or the depression, I can't say I would know what things looked like there and then.
It's really pretty easy to be negative about anything under the sun; however, it's hard for me not to take these types of responses as "Sour Grapes".
Model railroading is an art form. Everyone has their own style. Van Gogh and Rembrandt had very different styles yet both are widely viewed as great. Same with model railroads.
MJ4562 Model railroading is an art form. Everyone has their own style. Van Gogh and Rembrandt had very different styles yet both are widely viewed as great. Same with model railroads
Model railroading is an art form. Everyone has their own style. Van Gogh and Rembrandt had very different styles yet both are widely viewed as great. Same with model railroads
.....and he brought craftsman style kits up a notch or two.
i agree with NP, sour grapes it may be.
Lol I was actually banned from the Train"Bored" forum because I questioned why a new female forum member ( Candy something ) was dragging George's kits through the dirt. Since she was apparently ever lonely old mans heart throb they banned me without so much as a reason or warning, and refused to tell me what forum rule I broke there was no disrespect or name calling, just a serious pointed question directEd at the critic.
George, John Allen, Malcolm Furlow and others seem to bring the worse out in people, and regardless, it always sounds like jelousy.
Looking at many pictures on Shorpie, many cities looked pretty grimy to and sooty to me, but I wasn't around then so I"ll accept George's vision as he sees it.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
NP2626Some people said the same things about John Allen.
This layout makes me think more of Malcolm Furlow than John Allen.
"...there was not a bunch of run down abandoned buildings with trash laying all over the place"
Furlow got this exact same criticism.
Unlike many posters here, I always was impressed by Furlow's work. While his stuff is almost a caricature of a railroad rather than a model of one, I feel he elevated the artistic level of model railroads in general. I feel George has done the same thing with the F&SM.
It's a big tent. If one guy wants to emphasize "Model" more than "Railroad" that's fine by me. I enjoy looking at all of it.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
NP2626 rdgk1se3019 Take a good look at this layout.........in the depression era there was not a bunch of run down abandoned buildings with trash laying all over the place...... ............him and his cronies have caused a lot of model builders in the area to not enter buildings into contests because of the bogus standards in place now.......do you really need to see nail holes in every board ?......does ever building need to look like it is run down? Far as I am concerned the guy and his RR are way to over rated. Some people said the same things about John Allen. However, he was still very important to the hobby! I guess you are certainly entitled to your opinions. I don't feel all his buildings are run down! However, not having lived in either Boston or the depression, I can't say I would know what things looked like there and then. It's really pretty easy to be negative about anything under the sun; however, it's hard for me not to take these types of responses as "Sour Grapes".
OK, I was going to stay out of this, but now I feel compelled to comment.
rdgk1se3019, bogus standards? Come on now, I really don't think George, or any other single modelers work sets the "standards" for contests. That said I'm not the "contest" type.
Now, I have every respect for the talents, skills and accomplishments of George Sellios, the F&SM is truely a work of art - but that is exactly what it is - art.
rdgk1se3019 is correct that the "depression" was not that depressing, no where in this country, at any time, was every building, everything, that run down, worn out, dirty, neglected, etc, etc.
You can't really see the grain of a piece of lumber, even a weathered, aged piece of lumber, from 50 or 100 feet away - let alone nail holes. All you really see are the different colors of the aged wood.
The F&SM, while a great work in its own right, is not an accruate depiction of that era - it is rather "impressionistic". Not a style of modeling I wish to engage in.
That said, my own layout style is much the opposite, I like to model a more positive, up beat view of the world, while still trying to be realistic.
In my opinion, one of the best sceniced layouts I have ever seen is the Severna Park Model Railroad Club.
Those of you with the archive access can look it up, it has been in MR numerious times in the last 40 years - not depressing, and not overly "bright" or perfect - balanced, relistic scenery.
http://severnapark.railfan.net/
John Allen, that's a topic for another day..........
Sheldon
Geared Steam MJ4562 Model railroading is an art form. Everyone has their own style. Van Gogh and Rembrandt had very different styles yet both are widely viewed as great. Same with model railroads .....and he brought craftsman style kits up a notch or two. i agree with NP, sour grapes it may be. Lol I was actually banned from the Train"Bored" forum because I questioned why a new female forum member ( Candy something ) was dragging George's kits through the dirt. Since she was apparently ever lonely old mans heart throb they banned me without so much as a reason or warning, and refused to tell me what forum rule I broke there was no disrespect or name calling, just a serious pointed question directEd at the critic. George, John Allen, Malcolm Furlow and others seem to bring the worse out in people, and regardless, it always sounds like jelousy. Looking at many pictures on Shorpie, many cities looked pretty grimy to and sooty to me, but I wasn't around then so I"ll accept George's vision as he sees it.
Respectfully I would suggest that there is a difference between the dirt and "grime' of the city vs EVERY building looking like "demolition by neglect".
I work in historic presevation as part of my occupation and one of the myths we work hard to dispell is that people in times past all lived in run down, paint peeling, rotted wood, dilapidated buildings.
A "new" building in 1901 (the year my house was built) looked just as new then as a new building today. And most people did their best to care for what they had worked hard to buy or build in the first place.
In my view, good modeling of any era should show the normal life cycle of buildings, some old, some new, some in between. Some clean, some dirty, some needing paint, and some freshly painted.
But what do I know, I'm just the Historic Restoration Consultant who lives in an award winning 1901 Queen Anne house I restored.
Sour grapes, not hardly. I think George is one of the most highly skilled modelers of our times. And what he did for the industry with his kits is equally important. But do I want my layout to look like his - no thank you.
Don't worry all, I won't bug you much this summer. in a few days we begin the complete restoration of a 1910 Edwardian Four Square - I will be busy.
All of that being said here, I do think that George has a lesson or two for each of us in modeling our own layouts. As for me, its his attention to detail (no matter how over-detailed one might trhink his layout is). An additional lesson for me is his attention to colors and how they lend realism to a scene. George tends to use muted or "drab" colors, not bright ones. I have studied the colors in the real world, especially in a railroad setting, and they are muted and drab. Hence, weathering structures, as well as rolling stock, can make the whole scene come together. Yes, maybe in some people's minds George over-does it, but he sure gets the point across, and, as he says, each scene has a story to tell. In my mind, that's the true blend of art and model railroading!
Is my liking the layout going to lead a lot of beginners down the wrong road of what to aspire too? I doubt it as most people have nowhere near the artistic eye that George Sellios has.
Mark,
I have no expectation that others see these issues the way I do. And I don't put George, or John Allen, or the modelers at Severna Park, on any kind of pedistal as the "best", or "ideal", or "right way" to model.
In my view, it would be hard to even pick "best 10 layouts" in the world. Because first we would need criteria for judging - what gets more points?
Realism? Good operational track plan? Good operational access?, Good scenery vistas? Accuracy to place and time? Scale features like broad curves and long trains? The F&SM lacks a few of those features - that does not make it any less great, nor does that make it what everyone aspires to.
Fact is a great many of the layouts with the most superior scenery have little more than "display loop" track plans. Do you think maybe that has something to do with the interests of the builder?
I learned from the modelers who built the Severnal Park layout, and I had a small hand in its creation myself. I admire George Sellios work, but I do not want to copy or emulate it.
The F&SM is a great layout, so was John Allen's G&D, so is Dr. Wayne's layout, so are a great many others I have seen. A great many of which have never been in MR, or are not as widely published as the F&SM.
I can take you to a dozen very impressive layouts within 15 miles of my house, several with scenic detail that rivals the F&SM. Not everyone with great layout chooses to have it published in MR - but I do live here in the Mid Atlantic, where a great many homes are a modelers dream - 2500 sq foot house installed over a 2500 sq ft model railroad room.
I only added to thread in response to the guy who was critical and suggested the F&SM has set some sort of unreachable and possibly undesireable standard for contest models.
I submit it has done neither, by simple vitrue of agreeing with his other point, it is a work of art, not realism, and some others will prefer more realism, or the other side of art.
So, again, where does F&C come from?
My opinion is the F&SM is a very realistic layout. When I posted this thread, I thought the possibility was strong that someone would be of the opinion that the F&SM doesn't deserve the prase it has received! To me, that opinion stinks of "Sour Grapes", especially when no opinion of a better layout is given.
NP2626 So, again, where does F&C come from? My opinion is the F&SM is a very realistic layout. When I posted this thread, I thought the possibility was strong that someone would be of the opinion that the F&SM doesn't deserve the prase it has received! To me, that opinion stinks of "Sour Grapes", especially when no opinion of a better layout is given.
Consider all references to F&C, as typos for F&SM.
But once again you missed my point entirely.
I never said the layout or its builder did not deserve praise. In fact I praised them.
I simply said its not done in a modeling style I prefer, if you like it, that's fine with me.
It represents a lot of skill and hard work, I respect and even appreciate that.
I suppose that I was not "allowed" to express my opinion in your thread because it did not support your F&SM kumbaya fest?
Want to see some other good modeling, go to this site and poke around:
http://www.trainweb.org/harm/index.htm
Unfortunitly the slide show for the KMRR does not seem to be working. It is a layout full of FSM kits and similar structures, just as well or better done then the F&SM in my opinion - a layout I have operated on for many years, as well as having built a control system for it.
The KMRR and several other of these layouts were on the NMRA convention tour in 2006.
Like I said, I will be off of here for a while, have a house to restore. And when we are done, it will look nearly "new", like a little time capsule back to 1910. And it is just a few short blocks from the ex PRR North East Corridor main line were AMTRAK rushes by every hour.
Sheldon, Possibly if you were less verbose and more clear in what you say, it wouldn't be quite so difficult to understand the point your trying to make.
Here is another layout near me with GREAT scenery that I have seen in person:
http://potomac-nmra.org/LayoutTours/Jim_Brewer_2013/index.html
Like I told you before, I failed "sound bite" speak class.
I've seen this one in person too, just about 45 minutes from me, easily equal to the F&SM on every level.
http://zanestrains.com/
carl425 NP2626 Some people said the same things about John Allen. This layout makes me think more of Malcolm Furlow than John Allen. "...there was not a bunch of run down abandoned buildings with trash laying all over the place" Furlow got this exact same criticism. Unlike many posters here, I always was impressed by Furlow's work. While his stuff is almost a caricature of a railroad rather than a model of one, I feel he elevated the artistic level of model railroads in general. I feel George has done the same thing with the F&SM. It's a big tent. If one guy wants to emphasize "Model" more than "Railroad" that's fine by me. I enjoy looking at all of it.
NP2626 Some people said the same things about John Allen.
Sheldon, where did this happen: "I I suppose that I was not "allowed" to express my opinion in your thread because it did not support your F&SM kumbaya fest?" It seems to me both you and rdgk1se3019 have gotten your opinions across very well.
We seem to have ventured far from my intended purpose for this thread, which was only a comment on George's having made some changes to the layout to allow for operation and that his layout inspires me!
While George's modeling is top notched he missed modeling the depression era in its true form..IMHO some of his buildings look like they belong in Sweethaven-that's the small village in the movie "Popeye".
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
NP2626 Sheldon, where did this happen: "I I suppose that I was not "allowed" to express my opinion in your thread because it did not support your F&SM kumbaya fest?" It seems to me both you and rdgk1se3019 have gotten your opinions across very well. We seem to have ventured far from my intended purpose for this thread, which was only a comment on George's having made some changes to the layout to allow for operation and that his layout inspires me!
You really like that word don't you? I guess rather that expaining my view, I should have been short and to the point and said "the F&SM is @#$%" - would four words have been brief enough for you?
I took another look ant the F&SM last night, I could not hardly find one wood building that looked like it might have been painted in three decades - virtually all were weathered to bare wood.
The depression only lasted 10 years at most, in fact it did not really hit most people until 1933/34, by 1942 everyone was building planes and tanks or away at war.
All that in an era when paint was full of "dangerous" chemicals that actually allowed it to work and last a good while - but not on the F&SM - EVERY wood building looks like it has not seen a paint brush in a generation or more - if you think that is a realistic representation, good for you.
The paint job on my house, yes it is painted, no vinyl siding here, has lasted nearly 20 years and still looks reasonably good.
Here in the Mid Atlantic I have the photos to prove that people actually knew where the paint store was, and knew how to use a paint brush - even in the 1930's.
As for industral areas around the tracks being dirty, unkept or a little run down, sure to some degree, but often just a few blocks away are fairly nice homes or row of well kept businesses - except on the F&SM.
Today, many of the poorest areas in Baltimore City are not as run down as the buildings on the F&SM - and even in those neighborhoods there are people who manage to buy some paint every decade or so..........
Sheldon, what word have I used too much? Verbose? Kumbaya Fest?
As to the rest of what you have to say: Potato/Patato!
Realisim is in the eye of the beholder. And what you say, seems to be just so much: My way; or, the highway!
NP2626 Sheldon, what word have I used too much? Verbose? Kumbaya Fest? As to the rest of what you have to say: Potato/Patato! Realisim is in the eye of the beholder. And what you say, seems to be just so much: My way; or, the highway!
Once again, no one can disagree with you without you taking it personally or having you think they are trying to change your mind. I'm not trying to change YOUR mind, I'm just explaining the reasons for my view, which is just that, ONLY my view.
But on an even "deeper" philososphical level, I build trains to have fun, not be depressed. Real life has enough negitive stuff on its own, I don't have any interest in modeling "negative experiances", or overly negative events.
There are no burning houses, or crime, or car crashes on my layout.........
If life was really like the F&SM depicts, I would take a taxi to the center of a tall bridge.....