NEMMRRC I doubt the modeling hobby will die. I hear large train shows in Japan command attendance in the tens of thousands. The UK has some 4 mainstream model railroading magazines. What has changed is the world is getting smaller due to the Internet age. You
I doubt the modeling hobby will die. I hear large train shows in Japan command attendance in the tens of thousands. The UK has some 4 mainstream model railroading magazines.
What has changed is the world is getting smaller due to the Internet age. You
If you mean the United States as your back yard versus Japan, UK, or Continental Europe, if the hobby is alive and vibrant overseas, that is likely because train travel is superior to air travel.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larryolmsted/2011/10/31/dont-fly-why-trains-are-the-best-way-to-travel-overseas/
In the U.S., my feeling is that the advent of air travel began the doom of model railroading as a hobby. Traveling by train has become a distant memory. Kids don't care as much about trains as their fathers and grandfathers did.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain ...Kids don't care as much about trains as their fathers and grandfathers did. Rich
...Kids don't care as much about trains as their fathers and grandfathers did.
Actually, kids love trains. My 3 year old grandson loves Thomas the Tank. In fact I have 2 Thomas tables in my living room for to play with when he comes over - and he bugs his parents to go "play trains".
I see Thomas in the toy stores, the craft stores, the department stores, online, at train shows, etc. The stuff is very popular. Also, most toy stores have a Thomas set up for the kids to play with.
My 3 year old grandson loves to look at my train books and compare his engines to the pictures. He knows the difference between diesels and steam locomotives as well as many of the major parts of the steam locomotive.
He loves to go ride on trains.
How many of the kids will go on to be model railroaders? I don't know but some will.
What I see keeping the numbers down is lack of a growth path into model trains as they get to be 7, 8, ...12 years old. These are the ages when kids love to build things. But that's another thread.
Enjoy
Paul
IRONROOSTER What I see keeping the numbers down is lack of a growth path into model trains as they get to be 7, 8, ...12 years old. These are the ages when kids love to build things. But that's another thread.
My 5 year old grandson loves trains. Thomas the Train, then a small Bachmann EZ-track train set, my layout.
But my 12 year old grandson and my 16 year old grandson had those same experiences. But, once they got around 6, 7, or 8 years old, that was it. No more trains, no more model railroading.
Me and my buddies were still running our American Flyer and Lionel trains when we were in high school.
Times change. Model railroading is a dying hobby.
richhotrain IRONROOSTER What I see keeping the numbers down is lack of a growth path into model trains as they get to be 7, 8, ...12 years old. These are the ages when kids love to build things. But that's another thread. Gotta agree with you there. My 5 year old grandson loves trains. Thomas the Train, then a small Bachmann EZ-track train set, my layout. But my 12 year old grandson and my 16 year old grandson had those same experiences. But, once they got around 6, 7, or 8 years old, that was it. No more trains, no more model railroading. Me and my buddies were still running our American Flyer and Lionel trains when we were in high school. Times change. Model railroading is a dying hobby. Rich
Gotta agree with you there.
We have several volunteers at the Hub City Railroad Museum who are in that 12-16 age group who are avid modle railroaders. Part of the problem is that we don't let kids be kids these days. We load their schedules up with sports and other activities. When they're not doing that they're buried under mountains of schoolwork.
When I was ten years old, my friends and I built small HO layout and enjoyed it. These days kids that age would have their spare time booked solid with sports leagues and have the parents pressuring them to the point the game is no longer fun. Maybe the hoby would be doing better if we'd stop making our kids grow up too fast.
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
One Track MindBob - you and I both know people don't want to hear the truth, "they can't handle the truth." So the messenger gets shot. Which is why I have avoided commenting a great deal on this topic until now.
But is it the job of the consumers to want to hear the truth in any market - maybe sometimes? But by and large, consumers in any product field buy what they like/want/need and usually try to get it at the best price they can - unless they are on some kind of moral compaign to by products not made in sweat shops or a similar cause, which is probably a tiny fraction. There is an old adage I heard in the 60's and 70's and still believe it is largely true, "the customer is always right". In general, it's the job of any business man to find a way to please the customer so they spend their money on their product. If they can't do that, such as in the case of an LHS, it's time to find a different career. I had to do that when the harsh realities of being an environmental geologist was that there wasn't enough work to keep me employed full time anymore in the late 1990's, so after some hard knocks I had to change careers too. So I can sympathize with the LHS owner in that regard.
Like in other markets, changes have forced certain segments to shrink or close down while other avenues may open up. I imagine there are a lot of hard copy newspaper or magazine etc. writers/editers who are feeling much the same way as the hobby shop owner. They are in a losing battle.
But, with my store closed and nothing to lose, maybe it is time someone points out the brutally honest parts of running a model train shop in this environment.
It is true that many hobbiests don't understand why brick and mortar hobby shops are dropping like flies - so maybe topics like this will be an education for them so they don't have unrealistic ideas or false wishes about the LHS.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I had two rather disappointing experiences with "Local Hobby Shops" a few years ago:
One in Tucson, Arizona, 70 miles west, was advertised in Model Railroader (by LBF) as an LBF dealer. At the time, I was looking for some LBF wheelsets, so I went there. A man who appeared to be over 80 years old was sitting behind the counter half asleep. After looking around and finding no LBF products, I asked him where the LBF wheelsets were located. He said he had never heard of the company and had no idea what I was looking for, or why anyone would advertise that he had such a product.
The second experience involved a hobby shop in Willcox, Arizona, 60 miles east, that was advertised as being at a certain location. The location turned out to be a very rundown, vacant building. After driving around town, I spotted his new location. The store was filled with sewing, knitting, and doll house items, but only one very old and dust-covered Bachmann HO scale Christmas train set that was around 10 years old and priced at 3 times it's original MSRP, let alone actual value. Willcox is right on the Union Pacific Sunset Route main line. I asked the owner why he didn't have model trains, and was told that no one in the Willcox area had any interest in trains. With the price he was asking for the old Bachmann set, I could understand why. It was obvious that if there were any model railroaders in the area, they were shopping on the Internet or driving to Tucson instead of patronizing him.
I don't think either shop is still in business.
The truths I was attempting to speak about are hard to put into words on this forum. For one thing, and I already violated this once... I don't want to disrespect our hosts by naming names of their advertisers, in the past I've believed that is bad form. On the other hand, if people really want to know why model train shops are disappearing... it's hard to tell things as they are without fully describing certain situations.
Another thing is, of course dealing with the public is not easy. But if you are not a people person, then you are in the wrong business. For all the horror stories that I could tell about model train customers, it needs to be said that at least 90% of my customers were golden and the best people, and I miss visiting with them.
Also, over the past year, over and over, I've told myself the cliches... "change is inevitable"..."there are no guarantees in life"..."no one laments the loss of the buggy whip stores these days."
But reading the complaints about hobby shops, almost none of them applied to my store. And toward the end, I still couldn't make a living out of it, like I had at one time. The LHS may not have lasted until I retired anyway, but I learned a lot and did everything I could to offer a good train shop for folks, and it wasn't enough. A couple things I could have done better (maybe) but it was the outside detrimental influences that hastened my closure.
Those include previously mentioned manufacturers and distributors, which are hard to discuss on here. Also, some issues involving politics which I am certainly not going to bring up on here. But some problems were from a small segment of consumers, and it only takes a few to mess things up. And most of us don't want to hear that we are not the perfect customer, including me.
But people ask why the LHS is disappearing. I answered. The hobby is not dead, will never be truly dead... but the glory days are over. It has changed to a huge degree in the last 15 years, and as a model railroader first and a (former) store owner second, I don't see some of these changes as being healthy for the hobby.
After reading all these great responses, I'm wondering why anyone would want to open a brick and morter store in the first place? If you really want to just sell stuff and make money, there is the internet. You dont need a shop to do that, just a big garage.
But there are plenty of online retailers. What might make you special is manufacturing some of your own stuff. 3D printing.
-E-C-Mills After reading all these great responses, I'm wondering why anyone would want to open a brick and morter store in the first place? If you really want to just sell stuff and make money, there is the internet. You dont need a shop to do that, just a big garage. But there are plenty of online retailers. What might make you special is manufacturing some of your own stuff. 3D printing.
I know of train show dealers who skirted these rules by either not telling the truth or by piggybacking on the backs of established retailers.
Even now; Horizon has pretty stringent requirements for establishing new accounts. So good luck with getting Athearn for your garage hobby shop.
But there are always distributors who are more interested in the amount of product they move than who they move it to...
I dont care for seeing these posts as one seems to appear every 1-2 months. Yes, hard stand shops are going out of buisness, we are all tracking this. It's called the internet. If you dont like ordering from the internet, you need to get use to it as it may be the only option for some of us here in a few years. Hel, we may all might be posting "support your internet hobby shop" in the future!
Is the hobby in trouble? NO. Consolidation of companies happens in every industry and there are people still out there buying trains to the point all of these conventions keep happening and companies are producing new and better products.
Do i enjoy going to local shops....yes, its more personnal and entertaining however; as i live in Arizona....dont find too much in the way of southeastern equipment on the shelves. Still stop at Flagstaff Hobbies and An Affair with Trains every chance i get (plus AAWTs has an online shop).
Have you been in a "Music Store" lately.? If you can even find one, they are usually a pile of crap.
Radio Shack.? They use to be a great place to buy all order of electronics and parts.....now they are a crappy, glorified cell phone store.
Remember Drug Stores.....with a soda fountain and a lunch counter.?
Remember how great Toy Stores use to be.? etc etc etc.
It is not just The Hobby Store.....remember how great the local Hardware store was.? Gun Stores.....they use to be awesome...the list is long
Generic crap is the call of the day. There will always be a niche success story, but by and large, we live in a society that sees Walmart as a great thing. When that represents the majority.....you get what we have.
Amazon is probably the new Hobby Store.
NEMMRRC doubt the modeling hobby will die. I hear large train shows in Japan command attendance in the tens of thousands. The UK has some 4 mainstream model railroading magazines. What has changed is the world is getting smaller due to the Internet age. You need to start looking beyond your back yard for what's happening in the hobby.
Good point, Jaime. The world of American model railroading extends far overseas now, from those who make much of what we use here to the thousands of indivduals who prefer modeling American railroads. If you think locos are too expensive here, go to Europe. Yet it's selling some of the same stuff to those markets that now build a large enough customer base for vendors to profit from.
Like all those kids on their tablets and phones who'll never crack this forum open, yet are deeply involved in the hobby, this is something those who see nothing but death and destruction miss. It's a vibrant growing hobby if you look at it in the global perspective. Sure, it'll never be as popular as video gaming or music, but I see no sign that the hobby is on death's doorstep, even if some of us are.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I would like to think that brick and mortar shops are still salvageable - however, and some will disagree, sometimes the LHS bears some responsibility for its own demise. Case in point - I live 4.5 miles from the closest hobby shop - Riders. To put it bluntly their customer service is atrocious. I have actually been told that 'old man Shinohara isn't making product any longer' and yet I can always buy it at MB Klein. The last time I was in there, the person behind the train counter was so busy looking at the computer that he never came out to help me with anything - so I walked out and ordered what I needed on line. My point is that unless a place is willing to give reasonable customer service that adds to the problem of staying in business - at least in this area.
I will still go in that shop but believe me, I have very low expectations.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
Does anyone open a brick and mortar hobby shop anymore, that is, one devoted to model railroading?
I wonder when was the last time that a model railroading local hobby shop opened anywhere in the United States.
richhotrainDoes anyone open a brick and mortar hobby shop anymore, that is, one devoted to model railroading?
I doubt it.
I know of a couple of MRR shops that added internet buying to their operation and within ten years closed the store and moved into warehouses to do only internet selling. One lost me as a customer though because even though they were close enough to drop by to pick something up, they insisted I get everything shipped to me.
Pacific Western Rail ( an internet only business) is close to me and welcome anyone to wander the isles of the warehouse. All they ask is you put anything you look at back in exactly the same spot so they can find it. Considering how much is there, it is understandable.
I can honestly say that I think anyone that has not run a business has no idea what is involved as far as all that is involved. It is the typical "you don't know what you don't know" situation.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
I haven't been to either one due to the travel distance involved, but two model train hobby shops have opened in the Phoenix, Arizona area in the past year or two.
I have to agree with Batman, I don't know what I don't know about running a hobby store but this thread brings me back to something TK wrote in one of his Train of Thoughts articles. To summarize it because I can't remember the specifics, Humans don't like change. Modelers should know this as our hobby is constantly changing, if B&M Hobby shops are going then there's nothing we can do about it. It's simply the nature of the beast, I don't have an actual train devoted store within an hours drive to me. I'm making it a goal though to get to The Hobby Smith in Portland and Tacoma Trains in Tacoma.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
BATMANI can honestly say that I think anyone that has not run a business has no idea what is involved as far as all that is involved. It is the typical "you don't know what you don't know" situation.
Those of us that stood behind the counter or enjoyed talking with the owner will know something about the business-the good,bad and down right ugly.That ugly covers a lot of ground from modelers stealing KD couplers,paint and other small items to the lookers that looks at the newest releases and then rushes home to buy them on line.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE BATMAN I can honestly say that I think anyone that has not run a business has no idea what is involved as far as all that is involved. It is the typical "you don't know what you don't know" situation. Those of us that stood behind the counter or enjoyed talking with the owner will know something about the business-the good,bad and down right ugly.That ugly covers a lot of ground from modelers stealing KD couplers,paint and other small items to the lookers that looks at the newest releases and then rushes home to buy them on line.
BATMAN I can honestly say that I think anyone that has not run a business has no idea what is involved as far as all that is involved. It is the typical "you don't know what you don't know" situation.
1. Too much shoplifting
2. Lower pricing on the Internet
3. Better product availabilty on the Internet
4. Bad customer service by crabby or indifferent staff
5. Poorly trained and ill-informed staff
6. Hobby shop owners dying and retiring
7. Poor cash management practices by the owner
8. Location of the shop
9. Appearance and maintenance of the shop
10. Other reasons
Other lack of a customer base
Jim
LOL, Soo Line Fan, I hadn't thought of that one.
All of the above.
Jaime
I live in the UK and train travel is definately on the increase here. I have a friend who lives in Windsor Locks Connecticut who has to travel to NY and Washington DC quite regularly. It was my thrill to get the New Haven from Windsor Locks, change at New Haven and travel to NY - all by train.
He used to fly to Washington DC from Bradley but he now catches the train that comes down from Springfield MA and goes via NY all the way to Washington. It takes six hours but he gets to sit on the train all the way, plug in his laptop, use his phone, have a meal and a beer etc. He says that it is infinately more comfortable than going by plane!
Long Haired DavidA.K.A. David Penningtonmain man on the Sunset and North Eastern R.R.http://www.gmrblog.co.ukfrom the UK
BRAKIEThose of us that stood behind the counter or enjoyed talking with the owner will know something ...
The social aspects of the LHS could be enjoyable, kind of like mans version of womens gatherings, but if money wasn't flowing in substantial quantity, the mens social club still goes out of business - money still makes the world go round. I had a train buddy in my old college town who ran a coffee shop - even built a train track around the back counter which looped around into the back and back out. Students would come in and read books, do homework etc. and hang out, but not much money was spent - just a place to chill with little monitary cost. I don't think the shop survived for more than a few years.
.... the lookers that looks at the newest releases and then rushes home to buy them on line.
Brick and Mortar Hobby Shops -- Dying Out, or Salvageable?
I have not read all the posts to this thread; so, I don't know if there is a consensis on this topic, or not.
My opinion is that Hobby Shops are certainly loosing ground. When I talk to people who own these types of businesses their opinion is that it is tough to make a living from the hobby business at this time. Most are very diversified in what they sell and the idea of making it focused on one part of the hobby, alone is a foolish idea! However, there are some hobby shops I visit that seem to be doing gang buster business. Don't have any idea about how well their bottom line is; but, there are crowds of people in the stores and most walk out having paid for something. These are shops in large metro areas like the twin Cities. Shops in the smaller metro areas like Fargo, ND are having more of a struggle, so my feeling is a hobby shop needs a large metro area to be successful and doing online business is likely a good idea.
At the same time, there are many manufacturers that seem to be successful as noticed by the diversification seen within the pages of this magazine.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
NP2626At the same time, there are many manufacturers that seem to be successful as noticed by the diversification seen within the pages of this magazine.
I think if one is somehwat obessessed with the "health of the hobby" question, looking at what's being offered or available is a far better gauge than looking at the narrow question of the health of the LHS. With 20 years of the internet and the vastly changed retail ennironment, worrying about the health of the hobby based on reading the tea leaves on the health of the LHS is about like worrying about the future of automobiles by looking at Edsel sales...
mlehman NP2626 At the same time, there are many manufacturers that seem to be successful as noticed by the diversification seen within the pages of this magazine. I think if one is somehwat obessessed with the "health of the hobby" question, looking at what's being offered or available is a far better gauge than looking at the narrow question of the health of the LHS. With 20 years of the internet and the vastly changed retail ennironment, worrying about the health of the hobby based on reading the tea leaves on the health of the LHS is about like worrying about the future of automobiles by looking at Edsel sales...
NP2626 At the same time, there are many manufacturers that seem to be successful as noticed by the diversification seen within the pages of this magazine.
I would have gone with trying to devine the health of the automobile industry based on the declining numbers of Packard dealerships, but your idea works, too.
Andre
BMR777 Where I live there's two hobby shops that I can choose from that are both within 20 minutes of my house. There's B & G Train World which is trains only and there is Hobbytown USA. I think B & G Train World is able to hold on because the Chicago area has a dense enough population of model railroaders. From B & G it's only a 30 or so minute drive to the Great Midwest Train Show, the largest monthly train show in the USA. I believe, however, that your Hobbytown USA type store is more the future of where hobby shops are headed. The key for Hobbytown is that they diversify. My Hobbytown has a decent sized model railroad department. The selection could be better, but there are all the essentials there and more. They recently added a whole new dedicated section to Woodland Scenics products within the last month. Hobbytown has something for everyone: trains, RC Cars, Planes, puzzles, toys and more. I think they're able to make a better profit than a trains-only store so they have a better chance at survival. Even though they have diversification, there are still people there who specialize. There's one gentleman there who knows about model railroading and there's another guy who knows about the RC planes. Even though it's more of a general store you can still find someone who knows what they are talking about for model railroading.
Where I live there's two hobby shops that I can choose from that are both within 20 minutes of my house. There's B & G Train World which is trains only and there is Hobbytown USA.
I think B & G Train World is able to hold on because the Chicago area has a dense enough population of model railroaders. From B & G it's only a 30 or so minute drive to the Great Midwest Train Show, the largest monthly train show in the USA.
I believe, however, that your Hobbytown USA type store is more the future of where hobby shops are headed. The key for Hobbytown is that they diversify. My Hobbytown has a decent sized model railroad department. The selection could be better, but there are all the essentials there and more. They recently added a whole new dedicated section to Woodland Scenics products within the last month.
Hobbytown has something for everyone: trains, RC Cars, Planes, puzzles, toys and more. I think they're able to make a better profit than a trains-only store so they have a better chance at survival.
Even though they have diversification, there are still people there who specialize. There's one gentleman there who knows about model railroading and there's another guy who knows about the RC planes. Even though it's more of a general store you can still find someone who knows what they are talking about for model railroading.
I, over the years, have moved from Ohio (in the 1990's), in which the Dayton-Cincinnati area had no fewer than 5 or 6 great stores for trains, pretty much trains only; to Denver (1998-2006), Colorado, which has two great stores right in town, Caboose (of coruse) and Mizells. There were others, but these were the main ones, not to mention the one or two in both Colorado Springs and Ft. Collins. Then, in 2006 moved to Boise, Idaho; there are no hobby stores here except the two Hobbytown USA stores, which have a very poor selection of Model RR inventory; all basically at MSRP as well. They do still, however, have some scratch building supplies that I cannot get at Michaels or Hobby Lobby. The last true train item I bought from Hobbytown USA was back about 3 years ago, when I purchased an Atlas C424 for $100.00; that was the last "good deal" that I found there. There is one other store that bought the inventory of a local hobby store owner that passed away years ago, but he has no idea (nor does he seemingly want to know) what he purchased. He has more of an interest in R/C cars and so that is what he spends his money on to replace his inventory. There is a local guy here in town, however, who buys and sells Model RR stuff out of his home. He goes to train stores, buys whole lots at estate sales and has many connections around the country, including other hobby stores where he'll buy in large lots and then pass the lower prices on to those who buy. He sells most of his wares at train shows, which are not local; we haven't had a train show here in about 4 years. I can say that I have been spoiled from living back in Ohio. I surely enjoyed stopping at a train store on my way home from Cincinnati or some other place in the area after doing business at my regular job during the day.
richhotrain6. Hobby shop owners dying and retiring
He threw in the towel at age 74..Harold said After 46 years his old bones was tired and therefore he's going to retire and that he did..
I doubt this hobby is dying, look at all the new products being reviewed in MR! Also, the Radio Control hobby is doing gang busters. The hobbies are changing, without doubt. However, I don't see them dying out.