I have about 100 coal cars and 6 coal mines on my layout. Is there a program that would let me enter all the coal car reporting numbers and have the program randomly pick cars to spot at the different coal mines?
thanks
Jim
Absolutely! Check out the open source JMRI program for that and much much more.
However, you can tailor it to to as simple or as complex an operation as you desire. There is a bit of a learning curve, but the software is the best bargain on the entire internet hobby world....aboslutely free (though donations could be made) and a full support group at Yahoo.
Thousands of model railroaders would not use anything else, including me.
http://jmri.sourceforge.net/
I run 142 locomotives and 326 cars around 8 locations and 20 plus yards....plus real staging yard and virtual staging yard which represents all the rolling stock stored in drawers waiting to be called up randomly (really by useage statistics). Beyond that, a user can create yards which request loads for loading and pickup so that the program works very intricately to create realism....though often is complex so that many users simply run the railroad as you have suggested, in a simple call up by random, or useage number.....with the the ability to add an incredible number of train building constraints/requirements....from road request, to rolling stock age, type, present load and on and on.
You will be able learn from users far more expert than I at the JMRI users group.
I'm not the most computer literate person around, this looks pretty complex. Anything simpler out there?
jim
Mark 2 Pencil and sheet(s) of paper.
Anything on a computer (or heck, even the paper version) will be "complex" by the simple fact that you're asking for something that is in itself complex...
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
since you're spotting empties, i don't think it matters which particular empty car is spotted at a mine. But once loaded, the destinations of the filled cars would matter. This could easily be done using cards.
again i think this is different for other cars where it is not obvious which are empty and which are not. An empty boxcar would need to be spotted just as much as a loaded boxcar.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
So basically there is no "simple" program that would allow me to enter a certain number of car reporting marks and a certain number of industries (coal mines) and have the program/computer just randomly select cars and send a certain number to each individual industry? I use cards for other industries but because there are so many coal cars the card system is somewhat cumbersome. An automated switchlist for the coal cars would be much easier for me. At this point all I really want is to have a bunch of cars in the yard and have a list telling me which cars go which mine. I can make the list up manually using a spread sheet but it's a hassle. My layout is pretty simple and I was hoping to add a little interest by having to switch the cars into blocks destimed for each mine. I didn't realize that this relatively simple task was going to be so complex.
Sounds kind of like a "make work" project to me. Coal was almost always loaded in system cars and before the low sulphur western coal became popular, coal didn't often travel very far.
Back in the late 60's I worked on the Big Four Cairo division and 95% of our traffic was coal. We served about 4 or 5 mines out of Harrisburg Il and humped around 450 loaded cars each day. Inbound trains of empties were never switched out. We just grabbed however many we needed that were first out and took them to the mine.
If a foreign empty got mixed in, it went to the mine anyway. The thinking was, if it was supposed to go home, it should have been sent there when it was made empty. Now we are paying the per diem charges, we may as well make some money off it.
Charlie
Ok ,not to belabour this, but JMRI does as much or as little as a person wants.
It is true that you need to use a computer to do it. But what you are asking is just what I do basically.
First you would in stall the program, then enter the cars into the data base. Not hard.
Then you would create locations (which would be your 8 mines) and enter the length of the spurs on each. You can also designate only certain car types permitted, or leave as a default.
Then you create a train, on the the train page. You do not even have to choose a locomotive.
You create a route (which can be as simple as entering the starting point or yard on which the cars sit, and then the single spur to which you want them delivered). It will ask you how many cars you want delivered or picked up. The length of the spurs will govern overall length or train weight. This route is designated for the train.
You press the buttong to preview the train and the program will run through your entire roster selecting what you wished, including a random by useage selection. It will then offer a switch list for printing. The switch list can have just the one mine or the number of cars you want delivered to all 8 mines in order.
Like most things with JMRI you will get it down pat after a few train builds.
I am 65....I can do it even though I forget what I ate for breakfast.
jeep35 So basically there is no "simple" program that would allow me to enter a certain number of car reporting marks and a certain number of industries (coal mines) and have the program/computer just randomly select cars and send a certain number to each individual industry?
So basically there is no "simple" program that would allow me to enter a certain number of car reporting marks and a certain number of industries (coal mines) and have the program/computer just randomly select cars and send a certain number to each individual industry?
You could probably easilly build an application using MS Access or Excel. As somebody pointed out for empty distribution, you could just as easily do it by car count.
I use cards for other industries but because there are so many coal cars the card system is somewhat cumbersome. An automated switchlist for the coal cars would be much easier for me. At this point all I really want is to have a bunch of cars in the yard and have a list telling me which cars go which mine.
Ahhhh, the complexity creeps in.
You don't want a program to just assign empties to mines, you also want a program that can sort them by some criteria and produce a coherent switch list. The reason the program is so "complex" (and JMRI is a lower middle of the road on complexity) is that most people really want a few more features than the "simple" original concept. You probably will at some point want to know whether your cars are twins, quads or triples or whether they are rotary gons or bottom dumps. Then you might want to know what color they are so you can spot them more easily. Then wouldn't it be cool if you could tie in the demand for loads to drive how many empties you spot. By then you end up with the complexity of JMRI.
I can make the list up manually using a spread sheet but it's a hassle. My layout is pretty simple and I was hoping to add a little interest by having to switch the cars into blocks destimed for each mine. I didn't realize that this relatively simple task was going to be so complex.
Blocks, there's another data field. Any time you use a machine to do something you have higher compexity at the beginning to set the system up, then reduced complexity for the rest of your life (life = until your computer dies, you change OS, or you revise the operation/rebuild the layout).
Another piece you haven't discussed is that after you really have 3 groups of cars. Loads at the mines, cars not in the mine or in the yard and empties in the yard. Individual cars will cycle between those three groups. If ABC123456 is in the yard empty this session it will be spotted this session empty, pulled next session loaded and then sent someplace to be emptied the following session. Your simple system has to be able to at a minimum know whether a car is in the yard empty or not. Plus you will want to send cars to the mines based on the capacity of the mines. If the Red Mine can hold 4 cars, you only want to send they 4 cars, but if the Blue Mine can handle 6 cars you want to send them 6 cars. To do that the system needs to know the sizes of the mines and how many cars are at each mine and how many are ready to come out. Then the system needs something to prompt it to tell it to move the cars aound in the system to keep up with what cars are where. Since there will be exceptions (oops, the coupler spring fell out of the ABC 123456 so I didn't spot it and took it to the workbench to be repaired) you also need a way to update exceptions.
If you really want simple, put a slip of paper coded (color or alpha numeric) for each mine in the cars and then switch by the slips of paper. It actually had a prototype basis, clerk would staple a card to the sides of cars to indicate destination or block.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I'm trying to make a little work. Just thought it would be interesting to take a "pool" of empty cars and have something (other than me doing it manually) tell me which cars to take to which mines. All the outbound loads will wind up at the same place (off layout staging yard).
See, that's part of your problem. This isn't a complicated program, basically a random number generator sitting a database file. It's the kind of thing I did when I learned to program 30 years ago. Most software companies think this is the kind of small project that people do for themselves, and wouldn't bother, except (as with JMRI) as a feature of a much more complex program (this took one of their programmers half an hour to push out).
You could do it in Visual Basic and / or Excel, if you wanted to roll upnyour sleeves and learn a bit of programming.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
jeep35
As other have wrote
The mine doesn't care whose cars they get and from where.
Once the cars are filled - they are sent as a block.
This was true even in the Steam days. The cars came out of the large mines to a Marshling Yard and then blocked for individual customers but the blocks might have only been 2 or 3 cars.
In the 75 to 85 time period that my layout depicts the cars (in real life) were usually loaded in 25 to 50 car blocks and then the Coal Blocks would be built into 100 car trains - they went South (from Western PA) to Nofolk VA as my Sister would see the LEF&C Hopper Blocks running through Williamsburg VA as she had to wait at the road crossings for them to pass!
So the coal could be run long distances!
So it depends on the Era you are depicting on your layout.
BOB H - Clarion, PA
To be completely honest and not to "rub" anybody the wrong way I'm just looking for the "easy way out" on this project. I'm not really interested in learning programming or joining Yahoo discussion groups to figure out how to use software. I'm willing to devote a certain amount of time and energy to accomplish a task, but frankly something like this has to be really simple and fun or else I tend to devote that time and energy to something else. I'm not much into operation anyway and was hoping that this could give me something to do. I did download the program that was suggested and entered the necessary data all I'm looking for now is a button that says "Go" 'lland the program does the rest. Can't seem to find that button! I do thank everyone for their help. I'll fool aroundwith this idea a bit longer and see if I can accomplish anything.
Jim -- let's be honest here -- MRR is a niche market, so you're not necessarily gonna get an "off-the-shelf" product for what you want to do.
Same way that you won't get an off-the-shelf product to "throw those turnouts over there, from over here, and light up the control board".
Right now, you have all the pieces you need to do what you want (JMRI, program it yourself, do it on paper, or other solution) -- kinda like having a box full of LEDS and wires and switches and resistors and whatever else you need to throw those turnouts.
Now it's up to you to "wire all the things together" for your train randomizer.
JMRI might be a bit overkill for you right now (kinda like putting together a diode matrix for controlling 3 independant turnouts) ... but then again, if you use DCC, you might find that it has other features you like / can use (assuming you get an interface card for your DCC system).
Writing your own would be a bit involved, and (as with many aspects of MRR) would probably necessitate getting a bulk of information from the internet (or, buying a couple of books).
And then, there's always the low-tech option of "put a list into excel ... print it out ... and then pick cars out of a hat until you have as many trains built as you need".
I might (MIGHT!!) be able to help you out with something PC-based if you want a program to just do it all for you ... send me a PM or email and we can chat.
If I may suggest, you may be working the wrong problem. As Charle9 said:
charlie9 Inbound trains of empties were never switched out. We just grabbed however many we needed that were first out and took them to the mine.
Inbound trains of empties were never switched out. We just grabbed however many we needed that were first out and took them to the mine.
The mine manager just needs an empty car of suitable type (eg. 50 ton, 70 ton or 100 ton etc.), he doesn't care what railroad owns the car or what car number.
However, once the car is loaded, then it needs to be "blocked" (or classified) to go to a specific destination. So if you want to model how a real railroad operates, the problem a model railroad 'superintendent' has is to figure out how to assign "destinations" to loaded cars so they can be 'blocked' accordingly. On many model railroads, most of the "destinations" are 'virtual' off line destinations (a staging yard for example). If you only have a yard at one end of your model railroad, start with a yard full of emptys, distribute them to the mines, take the loads to the yard and sort them into various destination blocks and the operating session ends. Between sessions remove the 'loads' from the cars in the yard, put loads in the cars at the mines.
Now the assignment of loaded cars is relatively simple. For example: the red mine ships 4 cars per day to city1 and 2 cars per day to city2, and the blue mine ships 2 cars per day to city2, etc. What process you use to record and track these 'car number-destination' pairs can be simple or complex: write it out on a sheet of paper, use car cards, use destination "tacks" (chips or colored post-it notes), use a spread sheet or use a computer program.
Grinnell
Well guys, thanks for the help and imput. You've actually answered my original question. " Is there a simple program that will randomally sort cars for me", and the short answer is no. So I can either drop the idea and move on to something else or I can invest time in trying to figure out how to make it work. For the record, I'm not particularly concerned how prototype railroads assign cars to mines, as several people have explained how it is done in the real world. I simply wanted to make my little corner of the MRR world a bit more interesting for myself. Again I wish to thank all those who responded with ideas and suggestions, it has given me something to think about.
Andy Sperandeo had an article not long ago discussing car routing. you may be interested in some of recent articles on car routing
micro-mark offers a Starter Pack
jeep35Well guys, thanks for the help and imput. You've actually answered my original question. " Is there a simple program that will randomally sort cars for me", and the short answer is no. So I can either drop the idea and move on to something else or I can invest time in trying to figure out how to make it work
Ah, Jim. No no no. I am sorry I must butt in again. I am a former secondary school instructor and can't let misapprehensions get in the way of your success! As part of my job I often had to write long form instructions for using computers in school library and lab. What you are seeing on the JMRI page is the unfortunate fact that an incredible number of steps need to be written for the simplest procedures. And the fact that JMRI does so much, you also need to see when to ignore parts of what you are reading. [C'mon forum, is no one else a JMRI fan? I can't believe that writing one's own excel program would be the way.....that is really reinventing the wheel!]
If I could sit beside you and a computer at your layout, we could have JMRI doing what you want in 15 minutes or less.
Don't give up. Read through the JMRI pages on the Operations module and keep in mind that you do not have to worry about 90% of what you read....but you will have to discover the basics. And yes, there are places where help is very easily had.
These are some of the only pages you will have to work with. Your system will be especially easy if you do not wish to enter locomotives for your trains. The whole random allocation will still proceed as you wish, and switch lists generated.
ONE OF MY LOCATIONS
DETAILS OF THE SPUR AT THAT LOCATION
THIS IS THE TRAIN BUILD PAGE. YOU WOULD HAVE VERY LITTLE TO DO HERE IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN ONLY ONE OR TWO TYPES OF CARS AND NO LOCOMOTIVES. JUST HAVE TO SELECT THE ROUTE FOR THE TRAIN
A ROUTE PANEL SHOWING 9 LOCATIONS. EACH ONE OF THESE COULD BE MADE A MINE...AND I NEED DEAL WITH ONLY A FRACTION OF THE BUTTONS AND GIZMOS YOU SEE ON THIS PAGE...JUST ORDERING THE LOCATIONS AND SETTING THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF CARS TO BE SPOTTED AND PICKED UP. TRUE THIS IS AFTER I HAVE ENTERED SOME PARAMETERS ABOUT THE LOCATION....NUMBER OF SPURS....LENGTH OF SPURS....TYPES OF CARS PERMITTED ETC..
HERE IS A RATHER LONG SWITCH LIST SHOWING PICK UPS FOR A 20 CAR OR SO TRAIN. THIS IS AUTOMATICALLY GENERATED BY THE PROGRAM. THE LOCATIONS SHOW FOR PICKING UP ALL OF THE CARS IN THE LIST ARE FAKE SPURS THAT ARE REALLY MY DRAWERS OF ROLLING STOCK WAITING FOR RANDOM SELECTION.
PART OF THE SPOTTING LIST FOR THE SAME TRAIN
THIS PANEL IS JUST ONE OF THE ONES DONE IN THE SET UP WHERE YOU ENTER YOUR CARS, AND EDIT THEIR FEATURES. THE CAR WEIGHT IS CALCULATED BY THE PROGRAM WHEN YOU ENTER THE LENGHT...USING AVERAGES FOR EMPTY ROLLING STOCK. Here this would take some time for you, entering 100 cars, but I assume many would be identical in several respects which would speed things. I have 326 of many many roads and it does take some time, since I entered most in one month having bought all earlier. Entering new ones is a snapl
Now, it is true that many many other things can be added to the type of operation that you want. It certainly sounds like it will do all that you want. You can enter loads, customize the decription of them. When you run the train and later pick up the car from the spur the program will either load or unload the car for you depending on whether you were obtaining goods or delivering them on that spur/location. And there you get into more detailed useage, but it might even be appealing later.
And that's the end of my intrusion.
Cisco Kid (great stuff)
(great stuff)
Totally agree with you on this.
@jeep35 -- unfortunately for right now, the page is down, so I can't grab a copy of JMRI to play with.
However, the "hard part" for this is probably nothing more than the "add details for 100 cars" bit -- once you have that part done, it should give you the "create trains now!" button, and away you go! I mean, it's not like you have to mess around with learning all the decoder programming stuff (unless you want to!).
Suggest that you take a step back and look at JMRI like your DCC system (or rather the decoders). Sure it has all these cool features (BEMF control, simulated momentum, consisting, turnout control, transponding / CTC signalling, programmable routes, and probably a hundred other things) ... but let's be honest here, you only REALLY need to know "connect this terminal on the command station to red, that one to white ... set it to programming mode ... program this loco to address 1234 ... switch back to "run" ... call it up, and then await the highball". You don't need to mess with the speed tables, or BEMF, or consisting, or any of that before a loco will run ...
Cisco Kid [C'mon forum, is no one else a JMRI fan?
Yup, I'm a JMRI fan. Been using it for 10+ years now, and wouldn't be without it.
I've mostly used it for "layout command and control stuff" like DCC decoder programming, dispatcher panels, wireless throttles (with Engine Driver), etc, and I've recently began to set up Ops for my layout as well.
But before I go any further, I have to state that JMRI Ops is a *completely separate* part of JMRI, and you don't need to use DCC or any other control system to use any/all of Ops. You really don't even need to have a layout!
Having said that, I agree with Cisco that setting up the OP's mine ops could be done in short order. Maybe not in 15 minutes or less, but certainly not more than a couple hours. Probably entering the 100 individual cars would be the longest single task. And if you already have them in a spreadsheet or CSV file, JMRI's ability to import that list would speed up even that!
Ops is *extremely* flexible and powerful, but at the same time it's easy to set up a simple scheme to get started. That's what I did - I set up a few locations, added a few cars, built a couple routes, and scheduled a couple trains. Then I ran them "on paper" to make sure they did what I wanted them to, and played around with some of the settings.
And as far as the JMRI Yahoo! group, it's great! The folks who actually write the code hang out there, so if you have a question or problem you can get a authoritive answer or fix. I can personally attest to that. There was a part of Ops that didn't work the way I would have expected, so I posted the question on the Yahoo! group. That lead to a very constructive off-list email exchange with the guy who writes the Ops code. He agreed the behavior should be changed, updated the code, and gave me a pre-release to test! It doesn't get better than that.
So, jeep35, I'd encourage you to try JMRI Ops. Read through the tutorial on the Web site, download and install JMRI, and play with the included demo files. Ignore the other parts of JMRI that don't interest you, and even the parts of Ops that don't fit in with what you want to do. You've got nothing to lose, and potentially lots to gain.
What I've done so far is this, I have entered all the coal hoppers I plan to use (approx 60), then I entered all the locations 8, then the spur lengths for each location, so far so good. When I try to build a train I get an error message saying I need a route. OK so I create a simple route starting from a yard on one end of the layout and ending at a yard on the other side of the layout. so now I have route. I just don't know how to "associate it" with the train. At this point nothing is getting down except me sitting at a computer for hours instead of running trains. However I have a friend/drinking buddy that has a masters in Computer Science and I've asked him to advise me as to whether or not this project is possible using software that is already installed on my computer. I use a MAC so it uses Numbers instead of Excel so while does much of what Excel does, it is a little different. I just find it difficult to understand (i never had ANY computer training) that it wouldn't be simple to take a column of numbers and randomly select cells to copy to other columns.
Thanks Again
Ok, sounds like you are close.
After you use the operations panel to "add train" and it asks for a route.
Select the route you have created. and then go back to the trains page. Click on the button "Build".
At times there will be an error for a variety of reasons, but there is always a clue as to what to correct. If the train does not build and says fail (I forget what the actual message is) all you have to do is go over to the right and click on the RESET button. This will allow you to make all sorts of adjustments and try again.
In your route panel you will have had to select the number of cars to set out and pick up. Of course, if there is nothing in the system already on the spur, you will have only set outs.
The first location in your route must be the one that actually contains the location with cars to be drawn from. You can go back to that same location as the last location on your route, or choose any other. The location to be the final stop must be one that will accept any cars not set to be delivered to a spur on the route, or will accept the locomotive that is at the head end. This should be simple for you, as you have no locomotive.
Hey, get your computer savvy friend to deal with JMRI instead. It is rather intuitive once underway.
It is simply the case that this program is exactly what you asked for, but it has a learning curve.
I am a JMRI fan here. And I really like how you explained how operations work with it. I have JMRI right now for programming locos. But once I get my layout to a state that I can run operations. (I only need to finish the freight staging tracks). I plan on using this. It will make running, creating trains and manifests much better. I can't wait to get that going.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Here's a simple thought. If all you want is a random list of car numbers to mines, you can do that in excel, probably several ways. Just make a straight list of all your car numbers in column A. Then in column B insert a random number function. Then in column C, some nested IF statements that say something like if the random number is between X&Y, then mine 1; if between Z&T, then mine 2, and so forth. You could actually combine column B and C into one, but that makes it a tiny bit more complex. You could probably program this and have it done in 30 minutes, including typing in the car numbers, unless you have a whole bunch of cars.
One thing I have noticed when comparing the screen examples you provided as well as the examples shown in the user manual is that the screens on my computer are a bit different. I'm using a MAC so there will be so subtle differences, however in some cases I'm missing columns and I'm not able to change values in some boxes (it's a yes/no option) but the screen will not display whichever choice I make and when I do a preview it's telling me there are no pick ups or set offs. I'm sure I'm missing something, but what?
Give us some *specific* info about the name of the screen you're in, which columns are missing and what values you can't change, so we can try to help. Some fields aren't displayed or changeable depending on the options you've selected. It may just be a matter of selecting (or unselecting) a particular option.
For the "no pickups or setouts" issue, before you do the build and preview, check the "Very Detailed" option for the build reports. Then, after building the train, look through that build report. It will tell you why it didn't move any cars.
Hint: A better option would be to join the JMRI Yahoo! group and post your questions there (again, providing the *specific* info as noted above). Dan B., the guy who writes the Ops code, is VERY good about getting back to folks with issues/problems/questions. There are also some users with quite extensive Ops knowledge who often chime in with helpful tips and suggestions.
When I downloaded the program, a box opened up with an applications file and jmri file. Opening the JMRI file shows a list of items. There is a DecoderPro, DecoderPro3, PanelPro, Soundproof, and a number of other items, one is JrmiDemo. This is the one I opened. Is this even the correct program?
jeep35 When I downloaded the program, a box opened up with an applications file and jmri file. Opening the JMRI file shows a list of items. There is a DecoderPro, DecoderPro3, PanelPro, Soundproof, and a number of other items, one is JrmiDemo. This is the one I opened. Is this even the correct program? jim
I read stevert´s post from yesterday afternoon and had to try jmri. I do not have a connection to my layout. I'm only using it for operations.
After about 3 hours I was ready to give up but decided to give it one more try. Something clicked in my thick skull and finally figured it out. This thing is awesome.
I'm not sure of your intentions jeep but if your looking for operations and a manifest use the panel pro. Go to tools and operations then start building! That's all there is to it!
Ok there's more to it. I did not use the demo files. Just start very simple with like 3 locations and one car, one train, one route. Figure out how to set a car and assign it to a train.
You'll get failure message pop ups that are helpful. It is also worth reading the reports. if you get a failure read the report and keep it open then make 1 and only 1 change to whatever the failure pertains to. Try to rebuild again. If you get another failure check the new report and compare to the initial report. You'll find out if your change helped or hurt the situation. I know this sounds like a lot of work but it teaches you how the program wants to work. Once you figure out out you won't have so many build failures. See, it's that easy :-)
One piece of advice that I found very helpful was to not set restrictions for spurs or locations to start. Keep everything as default. I did the opposite and the whole thing was too restrictive and I was getting errors. That's when I was about to give up and then read on the jmri tutorial to leave the restrictions alone. That's when it clicked. You'll wind up reading every drop down menu option so many times you'll memorize where everything is.
Enough of of this typing. . . There are trains to be built!
Good luck don't give up. I didn't think it was possible but I love this hobby even more.
Ted
JMRI Demo is just that, a demo. I *think* it uses a set of demo files, rather than the "real" ones you'd want to use.
You'd be better off using either DecoderPro or PanelPro. Operations can be "reached" by opening either of those, and since they both reference the same back-end code, it doesn't matter which one you use.
Thank you. Maybe that's why things aren't working. At this point I've entered cars, set up locations, both starting and destination, put a route in place, and then built the train. When I hit preview it says 0 cars are available. Any thoughts?