We all can probably pretty much agree on the basics of model railroading. It comes in many formats, in different scales and different eras, as well as many different prototypes. Sometimes the models produced are displayed in open shows (RPM meets) and sometimes in juried competition.
The question of whether model rairoading can also be art came up recently and engendered a lot of discussion, some of it heated. People didn't want to be accused of being artists in some cases, although it wasn't always clear why and even less so why they would object to others thinking of model railroading as art.
Generally, I just enjoy what I'm doing, whether building a model, working on scenery or setting up an op session. But sometimes things seem to just happen or that I do because it's something I want or need to do to satisfy my desire to model things a certain way. I was set to thinking again about what art and model railroading have in common in building a Kaslo Shops SDL39 kit I've had sitting around for awhile.
I've always had a thing for the SDL39 ever since I came across the drawings back around 1970 in MR. As a MILW Road only model with just 10 produced, it wasn't exactly a roaring success. But it had the look of a loco ready to do its job, a SD squeezed underneath a GP-sized superstructure in order to provide good tractive effort with a light rail loading.
And I always thought it'd be a great loco for the Rio Grande, the primary prototype I model. But the Rio Grande had plenty of seceodnary branch power, so no luck there. It would look so good in black and Aspen gold. Obviously, it would need two things: a Pyle or Gyralight rotating warning beacon in the nose and dynamic brakes.
Jump ahead more than a few years. There's brass SDL39s, but out of my price range. Then there is Kaslo with their resin kit at an affordable price. I bought a couple, but recently sold one because I needed the cash for expanding my NG empire up the Cascade Branch. Before I did, I contacted Kaslo, who helpfully supplied the set of castings needed to correct a too-low gearbox in the truck that would snag.
And I built my SDL39 as a Rio Grande loco. It's like no other, yet it also looks "right" -- an important criteria that I think is at the root of building any successful layout. Adherence to a prototype is a useful tool, but sometimes you get pleasing results if you follow your inspiration. I just felt I had to create this model, even though it never existed. And I was able to do this through the medium of model railroading. But it's also art IMO. If you're follwing a prototype, you'll never arrive here.
I'll post some build shots in the morning. Interested in your opinion on the build or on the crazy idea of model railroading as art. Was it a waste of a good Kaslo kit? Kinda neat or straight outta the weird 50s in model railroading? Are its lines pleasing to the eye? Does it work for you?
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Hi Mike:
I looked up 'Art' as defined by Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art and, after a quick scan, if you boil all that they have to say about it, the word 'creativity' seems to stand out.
What you have done is very creative, and YES it is pleasing to the eye! Therefore, IMHO, your project qualifies as 'art'. Lots of what we do as modellers is somewhat mundane, i.e. changing couplers or wheelsets, or installing a decoder, or laying track, or wiring.... I don't think that sort of thing could be considered as art in most cases, but when we create things like your locomotive or my critters I think we can safely say that we are being quite artistic. Others may disagree.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I think that model railroading is an art form. While some individual parts like wiring might not be, they are part of the whole that is art. It's like the painter's canvas - it becomes part of the art.
Even if you follow the prototype exactly, you still use different materials i.e styrene for steel. It's still a representation of the real thing, like a portrait is a picture of real person. So yes the model is art.
When you deviate from the real, it's still art. Like an Escher picture is art.
If you buy all RTR, your layout is still art - you concieved it and built it deciding what to include and what to leave out, what season for the scenery, etc.
Enjoy
Paul
That is a nice looking locomotive. Model railroading is art, whether or not we want to be considered artists is another matter.
mlehmanBut it's also art IMO.
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
I have no problem calling all of Model Railroading an "Art" form of some sort; or, another. Is it pleasing to the eye? My eyes like what you've done, others may not. Because others may not, doesn't mean what you've done is any less "Art" than any other type of "Art". Model Railroading is Art and Art is Model Railroading, it is both!
Without even looking up Websters; or, another dictionary's definition of what "ART" is, my opinion is that anything made by someone using there creative abilities is "ART". Without doubt, some are better at it, than others. However, those who are really good at it, probably aren't having any more fun doing it!
Isn't "FUN" the reason we do it?
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
NP2626Isn't "FUN" the reason we do it?
Yes, but sadly there always appears to be an element (not only in model railroading) that have FUN () in rubbishing others achievements, modest or otherwise.
The definitive answer:
My wife is an artist, and she agrees with me that my layout is art.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
NP2626 Isn't "FUN" the reason we do it? Yes, but sadly there always appears to be an element (not only in model railroading) that have FUN () in rubbishing others achievements, modest or otherwise.
NP2626 Isn't "FUN" the reason we do it?
Yes,and they disguise such lambasting under " constructive criticism" even though it may not be ask for.
Nor do they consider the modeler may lack or may never learn the needed skill(s) or he may have a physical condition that limits his modeling but,on they nitpick while feeling all the superior.
However.
One should toughen up their skins if they wish to post a photo,layout plan etc on a forum for the above reasons.
Ever notice how far and in between my posting of photos is? I grew weary of the "constructive criticism" pm advising me on how to improve my photos by buying photographic items I don't really need nor want.
As far as model railroading being a "art"..I will never see or agree with that since we are supposedly modeling a transportation system and in that light shouldn't our main study be railroads and not a study?
I will never call Mike's engine a work of art but,will say its a great model.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Is MR "art"? Well, I guess that depends on your definition. I would tend to describe it as "crafts".
Or maybe its a combination of the two? On my layout, some could say the hand painted backdrop is "art", and the built up kits as "crafts". But what difference does it make?
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
mobilman44 Is MR "art"? Well, I guess that depends on your definition. I would tend to describe it as "crafts". Or maybe its a combination of the two? On my layout, some could say the hand painted backdrop is "art", and the built up kits as "crafts". But what difference does it make?
Craft/Art, I don't see a difference.
Art is the rendering of a vision, concept, idea, or of a model provided by nature in whole or in part. I would call an out-of box scale model of something a rendering, but not sure it would constitute art per se. So, while there is overlap, all renderings are not art. Some renderings are art. All art is a rendering.
With that, a scale model that is also 'touched up' to look more realistic, say in the case of weathering, is a version of art. Some's better'n others, as we would all pretty much agree, but that is also true of paintings, pottery, jewelry, sculpture, and even poetry.
I didn't look into that other thread. I recall the rather heated one from 2005 that got a very knowledgeable steam loco engineer riled up as he refused to call his own hand-crafted model trams art.
-Crandell
It´s been only weeks since we had the topic coming up and there was no conclusion as to whether model railroading is an art or craft or "just" a hobby. We all agreed to mutually disagree.
Aside from that, that´s a nice looking loco - one of which you can be proud of, Mike!
Thanks to everyone for the interesting comments. We seem to have come to a ceasefire over the art issue, with everyone agreeing that model railroading is about executing your vision of the railroad world, whether it's art, craft, or just a hobby.
Good to know no one had a puke over what I did with Kaslo's fine model.
Here are some pics and a little more info. The key to getting the dynamic brake hatch to look right was finding another EMD DB hatch that fit. It's crazy tight and a DB from other members of the GP/SD38/39 is just too long, although the styling would be spot on. With some help from others more familiar with modern SG diesels than I, we managed to figure out that the hatch from an Atlas SD24 was a likely donor. With a little trimming, it fit!
The nose light is a Details West IIRC part. Fortunately, there was enough space between the front gear tower and the inside of the nose to accomodate a 5 mm LED, so ddidn't even need two of the more expensive SMD LEDs like I thought might be needed.
People liked the model, but had mixed feelinsg about the chassis. Evene after the redone parts solved the gerabox clearance issue, there are a few clunky bits. But some care in going over the driveline carefully results in a very well running machine, considering I built it...
Now for some pics...the shell built to where it's ready to modify
Comparison to a SD40T-2 Tunnel Motor DB hatch. It's too long by a couple of feet.
The donor SD24 shell...looks like it'll fit
The deed is done
A top view. It's the busy look up there that was one of the things I thought was really interesting about my Rio Grande SDL39.
Shell-on test run
Ready for paint
Primed, with that prominent nose lighting package
The billboard Rio Grande logo just fits
Rear 3/4 view
Three of my "lightweight" diesel builds
BTW, paint by Krylon rattlebomb (Gloss Black), decals by Microscale. Decoder is a NCE D13SR. Still thinking about maybe doing lighted numberboards. Needs a Nathan P5 horn (Cal-Scale wants over $11 for one these days...ouch!) Thanks for looking.
I thought I'd throw my 2cents in whether welcomed or not. IMO model railroading is both craft and art. Using Mikes very well done model as an example, it is craft in that he took materials and crafted something to look like a real functioning locomotive. It is art in that he planned a "what if" scenario that this locomotive could have existed on the Rio Grande, even though it never did, by utilizing Rio Grande practices to make the locomotive look like it was part of the family.
We use art when we compress structures or create compressed scenes to give the impression of reality. And whether we realize it or not, we will often use tools of picture composition like principle lines,, and repetition in our scenes because we are creating an impression of reality, but not reality of itself.
So, we use craft and engineering to create our layouts, but the layouts themselves give the perception of distance and reality, and because of that, it's also art.
the next time you go to a Disney theme park, study what they've done. Its all about controlling your view and seeing what they want you to see. We tend to do the same on our layouts. For what it's worth.
Jim (with a nod to Mies Van Der Rohe)
up831,
Very incisive comments, I think. It also opens up a path to another conversation I've been meaning to pursue for some time now about how the hobby as a who;le may have overdone the "prototype paradigm" just a little bit.
The most relevant comment you made addressing that is about perspective, so I'll leave aside other aspects for now. If you intensively model a location, as is often typical these days, you can end up with a lot of information, build some great models, and still end up with a section of your layout that just looks...odd.
Why?
Failure to account for perspective. How will the viewer encounter it for the first time? Is the angle being viewed from good? Which view of the scene - N, S, E, or W - is being modeled (remember there is always an aisle-side)?
And yes, that's art. Putting together accurate scale models in an esthetically pleasing manner can be a challenge on par with actually building the models, depending on what you're trying to achieve. If you want the most out of those marvelosu creations, put them in a realistic, believeable scene, not one that's a jarring disconnect.
After some years, really at least two decades where "prototype rules" I see questions time and again from devoted prototype modelers who seem a bit lost in trying to build believable scenery, track scenarios, LDEs, whatever you want to call it to hist their wonderful models.
I think it's time to begin remembering and concisously practicing the art of model railroading. We don't have unlimited space for our layouts, which is where this problem becomes most apparent, so art is likely to still be needed until all MRR goes virtual - sadly in my book - in the year 2317. Anyone wanna take bets on that? In the meantime, I think promoting the idea that the creative aspects of art in model railroading are just as powerful a tool as prototype research is in building a layout that will satisfy your own vision of the railroad world.
And just to be clear here, I'll repeat. I'm not interested in getting every model railroader "to admit" they're an artist. They're not. What I want to suggest is that great model railroads blend prototype accuracy with artistic perspective to carry the viewer to another time and place, keeping in mind some do model the present right outside their door, too, and still fit this category. The point -- at least for me -- is that we should try to give model railroaders a basic set of tools they can use to apply artistic principles to their benefit, at their own comfort level.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Thanks, Greg.
I think that the creative side of model railroading is aptly labeled art. Just because the "canvas" is not traditional, there are many styles and types of model railroads; from 100% prototypical to railroads of whimsy. All serve the purpose (hopefully) of providing fun.
Nice diesels, too! Love the big ng engine!!!!
Long ago I gave up any hope of doing anything proto-typical in MR. Limited space, limited budget and a desire to do good model railroading within those limits, forced the "art" out of me. This meant using real extant locos in a totally free lance manner and working the art of redirecting history and the MR locos and cars to meet a possible scenario, much as in Mike's diesel case. This is pure art.... just appied to model railroading. Art finds it's beginnings in the brain and is transferred to some medium. In our case, it is to a living moving and evolving physical model of a railroad. Art usually finds its best exposition in the totally free and adventurous mind.
All MR's are artists in some ways. Some are just more bold and adventurous than others. One thing is for certain; we are all having fun in the doing and application of our art and craft.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
mlehmanGood to know no one had a puke over what I did with Kaslo's fine model.
Mike,Why should they? You kit bashed a beautiful SDL39 that look as good as any locomotive on the market.
Kudos Mike,on a job well done.
Larry,
I've had an occassion or two when I thought maybe I was upsetting folks with my narrowgauge dieseling and oddball kitbashing, as least based on a few comments. And then I do know a few of the hardcore prototype crowd that are pretty dismissive of anything that doesn't fit what they see as "reality" -- whatever that is...
That's why the comments about the challenges that a modeler still faces once they have the "reality" thing nailed weren't thrown in at the beginning. I was testing the crowd, so to speak. I wanted to bring the limitations of prototype modeling up, not to argue about it, but to discuss it as something that seems like a long-term trend in the hobby that may be reaching about as far as it can.
Certainly, attention to what the prototype does is at an all time high. I really think that's a good thing. It's just that it's not the only thing. To use another metaphor from life. Prototype modeling seems strange and arcane at first, but nonetheless attarctive, like that girl you find so interesting who you've just finally gotten a chance to talk with. Then comes romance, commitment, even marriage. You've got it all. Then what? The rest of life is a long time. Something else has to kick in to make that a success as those who've engaged in the particular social institution know.
Personally, I kind of think of the art of model railroading as what comes after you've achieved that primal balance with your prototype. You could simply copy it as closely as possible, but you run the risk of something being not quite right about a scene, even though is pretty darn accurate, or looking just like everyone's else's interpretation of it. Those are the fabled sirens of art calling you to loosen up, get creative, and and start shaping your unique interpretation of the prototype, since most of us can't afford to copy a RR foot by foot.
But I have no problem with folks who think it better to think of model railroading as a game, too, putting that model equipment to work as a transportation system in miniature. Heck, there's even money in that sort of thing from what I've heard about game art developers and designers. Beyond what I do with ops on my layout, I'm not a gamer. I've known a few people in town who were, though, including a good friend whose outfit was bought up by Microsoft and moved to Renton. He was a board gamer, not so much on computers, but he was no artist, instead said to be the smartest mathememtician in memory to NOT finish his doctorate at UI -- and that's saying something since we regularly supply the NSA and other No Such Agencies with math experts. Something to do with algorithms for rendering topologies, IIRC, but that sort of stuff goes over my head. Unfortuinately, brain cancer took him away too soon.
mlehman Larry, I've had an occassion or two when I thought maybe I was upsetting folks with my narrowgauge dieseling and oddball kitbashing, as least based on a few comments. And then I do know a few of the hardcore prototype crowd that are pretty dismissive of anything that doesn't fit what they see as "reality" -- whatever that is...
Mike,
For the opposite spin: I run with a bunch of narrow gaugers that do from time to time feign indignance when I build narrow gauge stuff and make it standard gauge - especially water tanks...Fortunately this bunch likes to have fun first and foremost, so it really never goes much beyond good natured ribbing. As an artist (musician) for many years, I've given up discussing "what is art?"...
Here is a fantasy loco presnted as an old Athearn ad - thought you might enjoy it. It is a brass shell on a spectrum chassis.
Have fun,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Mike, I love your loco - and I'm sure the Grande would have been proud to own one.
As for model railroading going all virtual in the 24th century, I have it on excellent authority that there will be at least one hobbyist who will be modeling in three dimensions, with physical (not virtual) rolling stock, infrastructure and scenery, in the 37th century. Not only that, but he'll be modeling the Kiso country in 1:80 scale! Who? Senior Command Admiral Terence Patrick Carlsen, Commander in Chief, Confederation Space Navy.
In any discussion about art, craft and whatever, it's a good idea to keep Sturgeon's Law in mind:
90% of EVERYTHING is crud.
A professional artist might deliberately set out to make a work of art. A professional aerodynamicist deliberately sets out to design something that will do what the end user wants it to do as it passes through the air. A model railroader sets out to make a model with a railroad theme that meets his personal druthers. Some achieve great things and are widely acclaimed and rewarded. Far more achieve a satisfying (to them) degree of mediocrity and continue to hold day jobs. An unfortunate few achieve utter, mind-boggling, catastrophic failure.
A great many people who create artistically pleasing results didn't consciously set out to do so. It just sorta happens. On the other hand, some commissioned works by famous commercial artists strike me as about equal to a pre-schooler's crayon scribbles. Picasso commanded artistic respect, but his 'cubist' period, seen through my eyes, was absolutely cubical (1960's definition.) I don't care what he called it, it still looks like a pile of boxes collapsing down a staircase. And then there's that 'artistic creation' of bent steel girders in an industrialized part of Rancho Cordova, CA...
Mike, I'm sure that your object wasn't to create 'art' so much as to build a model of a very unusual locomotive that your pet prototype might have used, but didn't. In the process you have produced something aesthetically pleasing to this ex-mechanic's eye. I haven't done the equivalent for the Nihon Kokutetsu yet, but some of the 'things' that burnish TTT rails would send purists screaming into the night. Nowhere near as nice as your diesel, which at least had a prototype.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
When you go to one of those sidewalk or community art fairs, not only do you see painting and sculpture and pottery- traditional art forms, but carved items, woven items and sundry "crafted" items. All of them are art- they all stem from the creative and design process. The same goes for woodworking, among other craft-based expressions of skill. The wide variety of skill sets which are brought to bear in the creation of a model railroad tableau are- in themselves- technical skills, such as soldering, wiring, using an airbrush, assembling parts into a whole (of some item), etc. The manner in which they are "amalgamated" into one specific vision- a layout, a diorama, etc.- that is where the "art" comes into play.
Cedarwoodron
Crocodile Dundee's Quote: "Now, that's a knife!"
Graffen's air brush scenery to Mozart's "Requiem" suggests art to the art! Thus, in model railroading, each in our own way, we bring something special to the layout.
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
The argument about model railroading as art or not seems to come up every few months.
My perspective: If you need to pump yourself up by calling yourself an artist, have at. Who am I to argue? For myself, I don't call myself an artist because I don't feel the need for that sort of self-validation. I do consider myself something of an artisan, though, based on some of my modeling skills.
I tend to think of model railroading as a craft with many artistic elements, some of which I'm good at, others not so much. But feel free to disagree - that's just how I see it.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
BruntonThe argument about model railroading as art or not seems to come up every few months.
Actually this time around it was 23 days ago.
Mark,
No problem with you being contraian on this.
I will say that if what you're being contrary to is the idea that art is about pretense, I'm against pretense, too. And I am sure this isn't about an appeal to my doing something "better" by calling it art.
I guess what I'm after here is the recognition that some of the ways we think about our hobby are essentially similar to what many other artists do in deciding how they will craft things. We know what please us and what just isn't worth our time in building a layout. The thing I'm after is to suggest that thinking about model railroading as art -- some of the time -- is pretty darn useful in applying our crafts and skills.
In particular, I want to give people who will generally still be prototype modelers the skills to decide what to do when they're either not sure about what the prototype did, where there's a dispute about it, or when there's just a blank page waiting to be filled in. I'm not talking about painting Picasso's on boxcars. What I want to do is suggest that people can be empowered to make these decisions, be comfortable with why they made them, and then be able to explain it if someone is interested in knowing how it was done. In a sense, it's a little like some of the objectives in the NMRA's AP program in how the goals come toghether between personal development and learning, refining the craft (or art in this case), and educating others about what you know so it can help them.
For me, this sticks pretty close to the prototype. But go to the large sacle side of things and well there's some cool stuff, but I'd imagine it's not everyone's cup of tea in how they'd build their layout.
Maybe a good summary of the place of art in model railroading is that it's something that gives you permission to color outside the lines creatively. We already do that a lot. I just want to suggest it's more important than it might seem at first to encourage that, even if you hew closely to a particular prototype.