Seeing that we're getting all serious, , in my experience while people want / demand quality, when it comes to putting their hands in their pocket to pay for it, in most cases, then it's a different story.
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
One issue that should be considered is how much quality is needed? How much detail?
You can buy a top of the line tablesaw for $4000+, but do you really need that to build your benchwork?
Similarly, do I need full underbody detail on my boxcar?
In Z scale, do I need separately applied grab irons? N scale? etc.
Enjoy
Paul
Bayfield Transfer Railway richhotrain It is more than I would normally expect to pay, ergo, it is priced too high, since my expectations are reasonable as a consumer. Rich Says who, other than you? The manufacturers obviously say your expectations are not reasonable based on their pricing. And since they resolutely remain in business, it seems that they are right, by the only metric that matters.
richhotrain It is more than I would normally expect to pay, ergo, it is priced too high, since my expectations are reasonable as a consumer. Rich
It is more than I would normally expect to pay, ergo, it is priced too high, since my expectations are reasonable as a consumer.
Rich
Says who, other than you? The manufacturers obviously say your expectations are not reasonable based on their pricing. And since they resolutely remain in business, it seems that they are right, by the only metric that matters.
Says a lot of people including a lot of members of this forum. As your time as a member of this forum grows, you will realize that a lot of people find model railroading to be an expensive hobby. Like all hobbies, it is managed with discretionary funds, so retired folks with a lot of money spend it to satisfy their childhood fantasies. Younger folks with less discretionary cash cannot participate as much as they might like to or not at all. The hobby survives because a small segment of the population spends without question because they have the funds to do so. Manufacturers know this so they get away with charging more for discretionary items than if they were essential items. That's just a fact of economics.
Alton Junction
Seeing that we're getting all serious, , in my experience while people want / demand quality, when it comes to putting their hands in their pocket to pay for it, in most cases, then it's a different story. Cheers, the Bear.
Thanks Jabear,
This thread went from pointless and humor to some honest fun, to so called serious on a subject that has been discussed, just with a different title and ends up going in the same direction...no where. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and mine being, that the way things are now adays, there is absolutely nothing I as an individual have any control over, so why get upset over it? Go with the flow...If I can afford it, I buy it, plain and simple, end of conversation.
Have A Good Day All!
Frank
richhotrain Younger folks with less discretionary cash cannot participate as much as they might like to or not at all.
That includes a lot of retirees-not all retirees are rich.
---------------------------------------------------
The one question that can not be answered except by the manufacturers is how many locomotives and cars do they get out of a ton of materials or a large pallet size gaylord box of motors? Only the manufacturers knows and that's on a need to know bases.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
zstripethere is absolutely nothing I as an individual have any control over, so why get upset over it?
You perhaps but,I stop buying their products since there's tons of older stuff and newer use on the market at reasonable costs.
---------------------------
Go with the flow.
-------------------------
I've heard it said only dead fish go with the flow.
zstripe Everyone is entitled to their opinion and mine being, that the way things are now adays, there is absolutely nothing I as an individual have any control over, so why get upset over it? Go with the flow...If I can afford it, I buy it, plain and simple, end of conversation.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and mine being, that the way things are now adays, there is absolutely nothing I as an individual have any control over, so why get upset over it? Go with the flow...If I can afford it, I buy it, plain and simple, end of conversation.
richhotrain zstripe This thread is starting to sound like being in a playground, on a kids teeter-totter. Frankie And, of course, that is due to childish remarks and cartoons like this. Rich
zstripe This thread is starting to sound like being in a playground, on a kids teeter-totter. Frankie
This thread is starting to sound like being in a playground, on a kids teeter-totter.
Frankie
And, of course, that is due to childish remarks and cartoons like this.
Rich,
Your....Turn.
I have to go ballast some more track.
I am going to restate my original premise.
Quality is high, but the prices are too steep. Prices could be lower but the manufacturers know that a segement of the population with discretionary funds will pay any price to get what they want. But, there are other segments of the market without the necessary discretionary funds, so demand is low.
The proof is in the pudding. More and more pre-orders. Buy it when it first comes out or resort later to eBay and pay even more outrageous prices. Shortages of needed items up the whazoo.
If I were a manufacturer, would I rather sell 100 items at $100 each or 200 items at $50 each. It doesn't matter. So they win, we lose. Participation in the model railroading hobby becomes more limited.
Bayfield Transfer Railway trwroute now very few still build kits. Sad. Why? Why is it sad? Very few people hand-braid their own buggy whips any more, either. Is that sad? Very few people play Mah Jongg in the US as opposed to the 1930s. Is that sad? And as several others have pointed out, there are still a plethora of kits out there for those who want to build them.
trwroute
now very few still build kits. Sad.
Why? Why is it sad? Very few people hand-braid their own buggy whips any more, either. Is that sad? Very few people play Mah Jongg in the US as opposed to the 1930s. Is that sad?
And as several others have pointed out, there are still a plethora of kits out there for those who want to build them.
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
Burlington Northern #24 At my own risk I'm going to disagree with that last bit, Intermountain has been running N scale 40' boxcar kits like mad. manufacturers have not spoiled the masses, kits are out there. the Mark 1 eyeball, and you search engine are good tools for finding kits.
At my own risk I'm going to disagree with that last bit, Intermountain has been running N scale 40' boxcar kits like mad. manufacturers have not spoiled the masses, kits are out there. the Mark 1 eyeball, and you search engine are good tools for finding kits.
Yes, Intermountain does make some undec N scale kits. But, have you looked at their website? All of the N scale kits, except for 4, say to contact your dealer. That tells me that IM does not have them in stock, otherwise it would say so. So, it doesn't seem that they are running them like mad.
Fortunately, a friend gave me 30 IM N scale car kits and a few have spent their time in the paint stripper so I can mess around with them.
zstripe so why get upset over it?
so why get upset over it?
I may seem like it upsets me, but it really doesn't that much because, like you, I can't change it. I'm just the kind of person that voices my opinion when I see something that ain't right. To me, this doesn't seem right.
BRAKIE--------------------------- Go with the flow. ------------------------- I've heard it said only dead fish go with the flow.
And objects in the sewer.
trwroute Burlington Northern #24 At my own risk I'm going to disagree with that last bit, Intermountain has been running N scale 40' boxcar kits like mad. manufacturers have not spoiled the masses, kits are out there. the Mark 1 eyeball, and you search engine are good tools for finding kits. Yes, Intermountain does make some undec N scale kits. But, have you looked at their website? All of the N scale kits, except for 4, say to contact your dealer. That tells me that IM does not have them in stock, otherwise it would say so. So, it doesn't seem that they are running them like mad. Fortunately, a friend gave me 30 IM N scale car kits and a few have spent their time in the paint stripper so I can mess around with them.
Companies like the ones creating MR products would be running on borrowed time if they operated like they used to.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
Burlington Northern #24 I have looked at their site, they say the same thing for all their locos, yet when I go trawling on EBay these kits pop up en masse. IM makes it'sproducts and then ships them out, they're not going to hold them until HE double hockeysticks freezes over. Companies like the ones creating MR products would be running on borrowed time if they operated like they used to.
I have looked at their site, they say the same thing for all their locos, yet when I go trawling on EBay these kits pop up en masse. IM makes it'sproducts and then ships them out, they're not going to hold them until HE double hockeysticks freezes over.
Kits and undecs are out there. Lots easy to find (Blue Boxes) while others not so easy. But what's being made. RTR. If you order them, you can often get undecs and kits from IM, Atlas, and others. But demand is clearly in the RTR market.
Yes, kits can help you cut a few costs. Undecs, not so much once you factor in details and paint, but YMMV. But this a only a very small part of building a layout. The difference between Shake the Box and Shake Outta the Box is unlikely to tip the hobby into the affordable column unless it's somewhere close to begin with.
To me, that difference is so little in the overall scheme of things it means little in terms of whether new folks are attracted to the hobby or not. While price gets lots of commentary from the narrow segment of the modelling community who make it a major theme of their online presence, there are so many other reasons for whether or not people find themeselves enjoying the hobby that cost is a small fraction of a much larger balance sheet. Things such as:
Prior exposure: A parent who's in the hobby or a relative who works for the railroad, Scouting merit badge, Thomas or Lego train enthusiast
Interest: Folks who build models of other stuff, but also virtual reality/game players, historians, and of course railfans
Skills: surprisingly few are needed these days with RTR, but building a layout is a bigger project that intimidates many, shop classes or family skill sets not so common, but high tech schooling and the makerspace movement both provide a way into gaining those skills, as well as the fact that many are computer-proficient
Space: You can just build models, but many want a layout and that does take some space to build. This can greatly affect perceptions of access to the hobby
Organizations: NMRA and other rail-associated orgs vary in the local profiles; there are probably fewer formal clubs and lot more modular groups than in the past and their outreach varies; a more mobile soceity is also one where it's more difficult to make the sort of supportive relationships that are vital to our hobby
Exposure: Shows consolidate or are dropped, LHS are dropping like flies, and the public in general doesn't think much about trains and how vital they are to the economy. Maybe the guy next door has a layout and doesn't mind sharing?
Competition: Kids have lots of things that call for their attention, as do older people who might be interested in the hobby. 100s of channels of TV, the internet, YouTube, social media. Some have lots of RR-related media, other virtually none
Options: We already mentioned the used market, ebay, and alternative places to shop, but there's always scratchbuilding, kit bashing, etc.
I can see lots of factors here that are at least as relevant to the growth of our hobby as the costs of RTR locos and cars, which only apply to a few (the LHS and Options) among this incomplete list of factors on gaining and retaining folks in the hobby. Maybe the hobby really is in trouble after all, for the sake of argument anyway, but the reason is that people fixate on pricing and ignore a whole lot of other factors we'd be well-advised to give more attention to, but might require some personal involvement?
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
trwroute Burlington Northern #24 I have looked at their site, they say the same thing for all their locos, yet when I go trawling on EBay these kits pop up en masse. IM makes it'sproducts and then ships them out, they're not going to hold them until HE double hockeysticks freezes over. Companies like the ones creating MR products would be running on borrowed time if they operated like they used to. As of right now, there are 84 IM N scale kits on eBay. Most of those are from the same seller. I would consider this the second hand market. Keep in mind that IM made most of the kits in the mid to late 90's. I would say that over 90% of the ones on eBay are from that era. So, how many do they make today? I would venture a guess and say next to zero.
mlehmanSpace: You can just build models, but many want a layout and that does take some space to build. This can greatly affect perceptions of access to the hobby
Mike,The lack of space for a decent size layout may be one reason we are seeing more along one or two walls ISLs built..
I realized switching industries isn't everybody's cup of tea but,many has taken that path and I highly suspect cost is one of the reasons..
richhotrain I am going to restate my original premise. Quality is high, but the prices are too steep. Prices could be lower but the manufacturers know that a segement of the population with discretionary funds will pay any price to get what they want. But, there are other segments of the market without the necessary discretionary funds, so demand is low. The proof is in the pudding. More and more pre-orders. Buy it when it first comes out or resort later to eBay and pay even more outrageous prices. Shortages of needed items up the whazoo. If I were a manufacturer, would I rather sell 100 items at $100 each or 200 items at $50 each. It doesn't matter. So they win, we lose. Participation in the model railroading hobby becomes more limited. Rich
So if you have a complaint embedded in that statement, is it with the manufacturers, or with your fellow consumers?
A weird comparison here.....in the early 80's, Chrysler invented the minivan. It soon became favored by families, or people who carried multiple passengers. What's odd is, it wasn't until about 2000 that a "drivers side passenger door" became standard equipment. IOW, for about 15 years, a vehicle that was sold as a people carrier.... only had three doors. Odd. Something that defied logic sold well. Was it the manufacturer's who thrust that oddness on the consumer, or was it the consumer who continued to buy the rather odd vehicle for rather odd reasons? If it ain' broke don't fix it. The manufacturers built what sold.
Who are these model railroad consumers who need to continuously buy new stuff? Manufacturers are coming out with new models all of the time, and at high prices. Personally, my trains last a long time. Once bought, I don't need to buy much else. Are people really switching eras, scales, new layouts that require new equipment, that often?
I think manufacturers produce new models because there is a segment of the model railroad consumer that buys new models simply because they are produced.
Why would a company stop? It makes me think that our buddy Sheldon is right...its the train collector that is causing this issue, not the manufacturers.
- Douglas
Burlington Northern #24 They sold did they not? IM saw that RTR was the way to go, where they went their fans went. I won't claim to have any knowledge of economics but money talks.
They sold did they not? IM saw that RTR was the way to go, where they went their fans went. I won't claim to have any knowledge of economics but money talks.
Well, yeah, but that kind of proves my point. When the vast majority of IM N scale kits were made, they did not offer RTR at all. So if you wanted an N scale car with separate grabs and ladders, back then you had to buy the Intermountain kits.
Like I said earlier, RTR has spoiled the masses and very few still want to build their own. RTR is a money maker for the manufacturers, no doubt about that. It just kind of sucks for some, including me.
All I can say is I appreciate companies like Tichy and LaBelle for offering their great kits, and after purchasing Kadee trucks and couplers, they will still be 100% American made.
All this amounts to is "something costs more than I happen to want to pay."
As the saying goes, true but irrelevant. Model railroads are a luxury good, and basic Econ 101 says that you keep raising the price on a luxury good until sales decline to the point where the total revenue curve flattens.And most manufacturers of ANYTHING would rather sell a smaller number at a higher price if they could; it's easier.Athearn and other kits sat on shelves for years. That's why manufacturers switched to limited runs; they actually get their money back within the same decade as they come out with the product.Prices continue to go up; therefore, production runs continue to sell out. If the manufacturer sells all the models they want to sell, then no, prices are not too high.I'm going to say that again because it's important. If the manufacturer sells all the models they want to sell, prices are not to high.80% of sales in virtually all fields come from 20% of the customers. (The Pareto Principle, for those of you who want to look it up.) Those 20% of customers are where an intelligent company spends 80% of its effort, which means the other 80% of us take the last 20% of the company's effort. Ferrari really does not care that most people think its automobiles are too expensive; those people are not their customers.Companies that don't work to maximize their return go out of business.
One may not like this, but one may as well complain about the law of gravity.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
trwroute Burlington Northern #24 They sold did they not? IM saw that RTR was the way to go, where they went their fans went. I won't claim to have any knowledge of economics but money talks. Well, yeah, but that kind of proves my point. When the vast majority of IM N scale kits were made, they did not offer RTR at all. So if you wanted an N scale car with separate grabs and ladders, back then you had to buy the Intermountain kits. Like I said earlier, RTR has spoiled the masses and very few still want to build their own. RTR is a money maker for the manufacturers, no doubt about that. It just kind of sucks for some, including me. All I can say is I appreciate companies like Tichy and LaBelle for offering their great kits, and after purchasing Kadee trucks and couplers, they will still be 100% American made.
Now that I'm part of an omni rail group I can focus more time on the part of the hobby I want to give a shot like building kits, making proper SP&S passenger car, and scratchbuilding. Give it time, N scale is about to get a big boost in kits via 3D printed models. they're working on a plastic MILW road Little Joe, Baldwin DT6-6-2000, they've made UP's excursion tenders, etc.
THe way it seems N scale's future will probably have scoresof 3D printed locomotive and car kits.
Bayfield Transfer Railway All this amounts to is "something costs more than I happen to want to pay." As the saying goes, true but irrelevant. Model railroads are a luxury good, and basic Econ 101 says that you keep raising the price on a luxury good until sales decline to the point where the total revenue curve flattens.And most manufacturers of ANYTHING would rather sell a smaller number at a higher price if they could; it's easier.Athearn and other kits sat on shelves for years. That's why manufacturers switched to limited runs; they actually get their money back within the same decade as they come out with the product.Prices continue to go up; therefore, production runs continue to sell out. If the manufacturer sells all the models they want to sell, then no, prices are not too high.I'm going to say that again because it's important. If the manufacturer sells all the models they want to sell, prices are not to high.80% of sales in virtually all fields come from 20% of the customers. (The Pareto Principle, for those of you who want to look it up.) Those 20% of customers are where an intelligent company spends 80% of its effort, which means the other 80% of us take the last 20% of the company's effort. Ferrari really does not care that most people think its automobiles are too expensive; those people are not their customers.Companies that don't work to maximize their return go out of business. One may not like this, but one may as well complain about the law of gravity.
But I'm gonna repeat the title of my thread because it is the only point that I wish to make.
Just think if quality were high and prices were low.
Bayfield Transfer Railway 80% of sales in virtually all fields come from 20% of the customers. (The Pareto Principle, for those of you who want to look it up.) Those 20% of customers are where an intelligent company spends 80% of its effort, which means the other 80% of us take the last 20% of the company's effort.
80% of sales in virtually all fields come from 20% of the customers. (The Pareto Principle, for those of you who want to look it up.) Those 20% of customers are where an intelligent company spends 80% of its effort, which means the other 80% of us take the last 20% of the company's effort.
That is a good point. In MRR terms, what that means is that the producers are catering to the segment of the MRR community that wants to buy new models, or new road numbers, or new paint schemes on a frequent basis.
Personally, I would never blame the producers for doing that.
richhotrainJust think if quality were high and prices were low.
Well I would be in...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCPs8bZ-KhE
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Prices may be "higher than I like" (which, by the bye, is NOT the same as "too high".)
But we have products available today that were literally unthinkable 20 years ago. Research and development takes serious money, and limited runs and higher prices are a very big part of the reason that manufacturers even HAVE a R&D budget.
20 years ago, an HO scale GP7 meant "Athearn GP7 called a GP9, or Front Range shells if you can find them because Front Range went out of business." Now I can not only get different phases of GP7 and GP9, I can get them not only correctly painted, but correctly DETAILED for different roads.
And a Bachmann GP7 has a street price of about $65 with DCC included, and you don't have to fool around carving stuff off before you start detailing it, so those who want to "do it themselves" can do that, too.
Bayfield Transfer Railway But we have products available today that were literally unthinkable 20 years ago. 20 years ago, an HO scale GP7 meant "Athearn GP7 called a GP9....Now I can not only get different phases of GP7 and GP9, I can get them not only correctly painted, but correctly DETAILED for different roads.
But we have products available today that were literally unthinkable 20 years ago.
20 years ago, an HO scale GP7 meant "Athearn GP7 called a GP9....Now I can not only get different phases of GP7 and GP9, I can get them not only correctly painted, but correctly DETAILED for different roads.
As someone who I see has about 60 posts, you may or may not know that these, Price Of The Hobby, (as well as some other topics), types of threads reocurr. Many members here have heard it all before.
Although I think Rich created this thread to be a spoof on those reocurring threads, the title "What if quality was high and prices were low" implies the opposite is what people complain about, that prices are high and quality is low.
I don't think that's true at all. I think with the increased prices, increases in "quality" (meaning features and accuracy) has come with it. We get what we pay for, and its worth every penny....if that's the service you want.
Now, I don't care to pay for that service...yes it is a service....not a product. I don't want to hire Athearn, or any producer, to build me a model that is custom detailed and painted for a particular railroad. Custom anything is always more expensive than generic anything, and I'll take the generic service thank you...if there is that option left when I want a new item.....but apparently, the producers are finding enough customers that want the custom-build service.
I remember on the old Atlas forum, many of the members basically demanded that producers provide the custom service...in so many words. They were less of a producer if they didn't.
But my relative insulation from the issues within the new-product(service)-buying segment of the hobby is due to my choices and goals and nobody else's. There is only me to blame for how I approach the hobby.
Werl, these "the hobby is too expensive" discussions happen on every forum for every hobby, so yeah, they're a perennial.For that matter you can find them in the Model Railroader letter columns back in the 1940s.But the good news is, BECAUSE we have the $350 Athearn Genesis GP7, we ALSO have the Bachmann $65 "Generic" GP7 WITH DCC INCLUDED. If you've ever seen one, or seen the reviews, it's smooth running, quiet, and excellently proportioned. If I didn't already HAVE a bunch of Proto GP7s, I'd be getting the Bachmann ones... a Bachmann GP7, a BLMA handgrab drill template for $5, a pack of grab irons and eye bolts for 1.50 each... heck, what's not to like? And it's a well proportioned styrene body, so kitbash away! Want a Paducah GP8? There ya go!If they do a Phase II GP9, I'll grab one instantly for my model of MILW 999 with the chop hood.But Bachmann produces that model because Athearn and Walthers and Proto et al have done the "heavy lifting." I remember when DCC decoders were about $35 each for a bare bones, never mind installed in an engine for $65.
Doughless Although I think Rich created this thread to be a spoof on those reocurring threads,
Although I think Rich created this thread to be a spoof on those reocurring threads,
Bayfield Transfer RailwayBut the good news is, BECAUSE we have the $350 Athearn Genesis GP7, we ALSO have the Bachmann $65 "Generic" GP7 WITH DCC INCLUDED.
And now it comes with DCC/Sound around $112.00(street)-a option for those that don't want to shell out the extra dineros for the Genesis Geep.
But..
I've seen the Genesis DCC/Sound GP7/9s for as low as $149.00 on line and DCC ready for $99.00.
I fully believe if some would take some time away from TV or perhaps let go of their sweeties hand just long enough to shop they would find some excellent deals on e-Bay and the better on line shops.
If one chooses to shell out full MSRP at their LHS then I can understand the hand wringing over the prices.